Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Ozan]

He seemed to give Elenwen the finger during Helgen. He had this information? It is fairly obvious information, have to be completely ignorant to not see the Thalmor behind the uprising stirring up trouble. The Legion can see it, but it is their fault the Stormcloaks can't?

Wait, so the Imperials know the Thalmor are behind the uprising, yet they are okay with letting the Thalmor stand guard over the execution with no fear or concern that they wouldn't intervene? Tullius sounds pretty careless.

He is rumored to have killed the High King by shouting him apart. I doubt the Imperials are going to let him have a chat near the Emperor.

Ulfric probably wanted? Without any evidence or anything to at least hint towards that?

The doorman in Solitude got to defend his position before he died, why not Ulfric?

Way I see it, Imperials can do whatever they like with their religion. They created it, and they spread it.

Right, just like how the Catholics control the Protestants and the Eastern Orthodox.

You must over read it, or just have a complete lack of understanding.

Clearly, not like you could ever be possibly wrong about ANYTHING ever in your life. Sorry for doubting anything you ever say, Serjo. It is obviously my mistake, confound it all!

And I call myself the "Magnificent Bastard." Oy...

Arresting people for murder, isn't that controlling someone's life? Guess every country in the world are totalitarian. Banning the worship of Talos and turning a blind eye to people who still worship? Real oppressive. Nords have Imperials beat, they used to burn the priests of the Divines at the stake.

Right, because murder is the exact same as freedom of Religion, nice to see, Grand Inquisitor Mage. That's an excellent comparison. Why don't we release all the murderers because their jail cell is reserved for those damn heretics, by Talos!

Gee, now I'm a heretic. :C

Ignoring that, sure. Murdering someone and worshipping a different religion is the same ticket. I'll buy into it for now, though I'll admit it doesn't make sense to me considering worshipping someone else is a victimless crime (just saying). But, whatevs, I'll ignore it just for you. Concerning the Nords burning priests at the stake, go for it. Its not like they eventually converted almost the entire region, so their deaths weren't in vain. They also weren't part of the same nation at the time, I'd wager. Lets persecute Iceland for burning Christian priests at the stake, lets persecute Italy for feeding Christians to lions, even!

There is a point where it happened so long ago, it doesn't even register. You're grasping for straws and you're slandering the people you're trying to defend.

They've turned their back on most of the Nordic religion, so they're less Nordly.

And you've turned your back on the most Colovian god. Does that make the Imperials any less Imperial?

So do the Imperial Legion, many of them are fighting for their homes, and the belief of keeping the Empire united.

Gee, where was this patriotism when the Aldmeri invaded the first time around?

Istlod is an old, weak and feeble man? Do you have a source for that? Kodlak is old, Ulfric is getting up in his age too. Istlod was perhaps a true High King according to Ulfric Stormcloak. So he must have been a warrior to be called a "True High King of Skyrim"

You and your sources. Tell you what, you provide me a source saying he died in the prime of his life. I'm pretty sure he died of natural causes, and if he didn't I'll retract that statement.

You see people fanboy all over Hitler still.

The history books also don't record Nazi Germany very positively. However, thanks to propaganda (that was supposedly banned) FDR is still rather popular, even more popular than Hitler. Its not a matter of who, its a matter of who says it.

He's been ruler of his Hold for many years.

But not all the holds as High King. The High King may start as a Jarl, but they're not Jarls. Try to keep up.

Torygg was killed very shortly in his reign, he had less time as Jarl than Ulfric did. Being High King doesn't mean you handhold the province, the eight other Holds are largely independent.

I'm sure you'd agree that the system in Skyrim is rather feudal (which is why the holds maintain so much independence). The holds have their taxes, then the a portion of the tax goes to the High King. The High King would also deal with a lot of the major political matters.

There is a difference, there are perks, and there are benifits. Better to be High King than Jarl.

Titus has the power of veto within Imperial politics. What is he going to do? Elder Council handle the rest. But, I would say he's rebuilt the Imperial army to a strength enough to threaten the Aldmeri Dominion, established calm and peace within Cyrodiil after brigands and criminals had caused problems in the aftermath of the war. For the first three years of his reign the Empire was prosperous and doing very well.

You can't claim that the Imperial Army is enough to threaten the Aldmeri. Even if it has grown, wouldn't the Aldmeri's army also grow? You're already buying into blind fervor, enough to claim "WE WILL WIN WITHOUT EFFORT AT ALL!!!" Afterall, the Empire hadn't lost a war for two eras until the Aldmeri Dominion turned up. There is a difference between confidence and arrogance, something the Empire discovered at a high price.

Changed the entire landscape of Cyrodiil from dense jungle to nice forests with his mind as a thank you to his subjects. Some people would say that is impressive.

Pics or it didn't happen!

Ignoring that, a man terascapes the place with the power of a god, and you refuse to acknowledge his seat in the Pantheon? #JustImperialThings

Mede dies, so we just need to kill Ulfric and we'd be good.

So you don't mind if Mede dies so long as Ulfric dies? Don't mean to intrude, but doesn't that seem a bit vindicated? Willing to throw as many lives in the fire as it takes so long as victory is assured? Isn't that how the Battle of the Red Ring was handled? I'm sure if Mede was the true mind of stratagem that you claimed he was, he would have managed his losses more efficiently and try to minimize the overall casualties so he could maintain his efforts. After all, the Aldmeri Army WAS defeated, he didn't have to give into demands at all and Ulfric wouldn't have had to rise to power.

Yet, no. He is so infallible in your eyes that you refuse to tolerate the words "should have", "could have", or "would have". History repeats itself because we didn't learn the first time around, but how can we learn when we refuse to acknowledge?

They don't need to contact him directly, they have assets and can warn other Stormcloaks.

"A masterstroke by General Tullius! He's only been in charge here for a few months, but he's turned things around for the Empire. We've been trying to catch Ulfric since the war started, but he always seemed to slip through our fingers... like he knew we were coming. This time, the General turned the tables on him. Ulfric rode right into our ambush with only a few bodyguards. He surrendered pretty meekly, too. So much for his death-or-glory reputation." - Hadvar

Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed. - Thalmor Dossier.

As we can gather, the Thalmor remain hands off unless it affects their plans. Imperials trying to capture Ulfric, he's suddenly tipped off and escapes.

That's speculation, not hard evidence. Every coincidence has to be taken with a grain of salt, if the Thalmor did help Ulfric all those times then why didn't they help Ulfric this time? If guessing is to be used in the stead of place, how can anyone defend themselves?

Tullius is using local means, he isn't getting anything from Cyrodiil. With the Pass Blocked, he's also lost solid communication with Cyrodiil. I thought you said the Stormcloaks fought for their homes and has a God on their side. Is Talos really beaten by a few more coins?

Tullius views them as a threat to the Empire.

Oh, no? What about the Imperial Misc Quest after you join them called "Getting Outfitted"? Beirand gives you a free set of armor for whatever you prefer. He's getting paid for each set of armor he makes. This goes for most blacksmiths in the Imperial side of Skyrim, they are making a lot of armor and weapons for the Imperials and they're getting paid for it (the Battleborns try to get Whiterun to make weapons for the Imperials, too, saying they'll pay whatever it takes).

They may not have the manpower of the Empire, but they have the funding. And afterall, the Sinews of war are infinite money.

I see them as a very short term solution to a problem that will be gone within months.

Sounds like the perfect solution if it'll only last months.

Yes, with the Legion barely able to maintain law and order in the aftermath of the war. With Aldmeri possibly still within Cyrodiil after Red Ring. He hardly lies down, he fought a war for four years because the Empire would not accept such terms at the mere threat of war.

Empire wasn't going to win the first round, but it wasn't going to simply lay down without a bloody nose.

More like a kick to the teeth, with a torn off right arm (Hammerfell) and an upset stomach (Skyrim). They killed the leading general of the Aldmeri dominion, they did they're own damage as well. I assure you that they could have gotten a White Peace rather than a White-Gold Concordat. They could have gotten something from what they've sacrificed, they could have fought for more. Not on the field, but at the truce. Instead, they say "Alright, I submit" rather than acknowledge they're equal ground.

If they had at least debated and tried for some changes in the treaty, I'd be far more sympathetic. But they didn't. They've earned their fate.

He asks about if he surrenders after Rikke is dead. He also fights with her when the Stormcloaks attack... Hiding behind a woman? She's a Nord woman, they're no different than Nord men.

Spoiler

So, he wants to surrender AFTER she dies? That last line of defense, Bro!

Were able to take the city when the Legions left...

Well of course they did, the Militia fought the Reachmen for it.

They're hardly a pain in the ass when you can shout a gate open.

I'm not sure if you know what Markarth is or what their gates are made out of, but its Dwarven metal. Big doors. I imagine they'd lock the doors for a siege.

Unless I mistaken the Dwarven Metal for High King Toryggs, that door ain't going to open with a Fus Ro Dah. Take a moment and think before saying something so asinine.

Source?

I'd have to look for it. Getting tired of you always DEMANDING a source for everything I say. Sounds to me that you're calling me a liar... I pray it isn't true, though, for I know it shall break my heart if it were.

90% of supporters are racist, xenophobic and near hostile towards Non-nords. Every Stormcloak guard and Galmar using racial slurs like lizard and cat. Also slightly threatening elves...

Ulfric doesn't know. His head must be far up his ass to not see it. Funding of the Empire again, so Skyrim is better off with the Empire. Since the funds can be used to rebuild Skyrim much quicker.

Is that an actual statistic or a guesstimate? Regardless, Galmar doesn't rule Windhelm, so don't act like he does. A lot of folks are racist in the game, might I add. The Dunmer, for one, were the most racist race that walks Tamriel. A fitting irony that here they are oppressed, no?

That being said, why DOES Ulfric need to know about the actions of a private citizen? Holds and cities are downsized so the game doesn't become a hassle to navigate through, do you really expect the Jarl to know what every citizen is doing in his city while fighting a war? Can Titus Mede tell me the weather of High Rock as it happens? Can he tell me what his maid's brother is doing?

No, because he has more important plops to do. This is just your biased leaking out.

Not yet, but who knows what his supporters would do. Why are you Stormcloaks getting your jimmies in a knot? Person screaming about Talos gets arrested, 99% of Talos worship being ignored. Few people getting taken by the Thalmor and killed...

Solution? An uprising which takes more lives than the Thalmor Justiciars do. Creates a large bandit problem where they're able to raid farms and do as they please without worry. Killing even more citizens, regardless of race or religion.

"I tell you this province is losing its grip. The bandits become more brazen every day." - Skjor/Vilkas

Jimmies in a knot? Didn't realize you were a senior citizen. Nice slang.

You seem awfully fond of this "Fear" concept! What if they do this? What if they do that? What if my aunt had a dick? Then she'd be my uncle. What ifs aren't doing anyone any good. They're only used to inspire fear, and considering no one exists in their world (excluding multiverse theory), then nobody should be concerned with What Ifs. You can have all the theories in the world, but if there is no crime then there isn't a criminal.

Talking about the boat filled with EETC Mercenaries.

East Empire Trading Company shouldn't even be allowed in Windhelm. The East India Trading Company (what the EETC is based off) had its own military and dealt with its own diplomacy, but was ultimately a branch off the English Empire which is similar to the EETC in game (who has their own military and the Empire grants all funding too, and even is lead by the Emperor's cousin). If Ulfric were as grand as some of my Stormcloak comrades claimed him to be, he'd kick them out.

No. The armor is mass produced, and is used by many people. Thing is found is caves at times. But, yeah. The EETC are stupid for not changing their armor to suit retarded Nords who think spies walk around in Legion armor. They'd be pretty pl*** spies.

Walmart opens a new store every time they make a million dollars, doesn't mean I'm going to go shop there any time soon. Simply because something is made en masse, doesn't mean you should get it. Something like that tends to denote poor quality and cheap value, due to the abundance and the maintaining of this abundance. The EETC is a part of the Empire, hence East EMPIRE Trading Company. They shouldn't be trusted at all, even if they aren't spies.

Imperial armor isn't an SS Uniform. It is found all over Tamriel, even those who aren't part of the Legion.

I'm not saying it is an SS Uniform, all I'm saying is that you probably shouldn't wear what the enemy wears. It tends to be healthier this way. Wear what you want AFTER the war, like Neo-Nazis do.

Skyrim doesn't pass in time. War is right around the corner.

Thanks, Legate George RR Martin for reminding us.

No it isn't. The last successful assassination, there would be many attempts.

A successful assassination leads to more assassination attempts. The guy who asked you to assassinate the Emperor even said that it'd put the Dark Brotherhood back on the map, and they only do one thing and that's murder.

Yeah, Skald... I'm sure he is a great ally for Ulfric. True Stormcloak, he is.

Any who oppose the Empire is a friend to me.

Yes, this includes the Thalmor.

Maybe to everyone who actually understands we don't get every single bit of information due to it being a game. No, you're using absence of evidence as evidence of absence.

Bullplops, for the last few posts of yours you've been doing nothing but grasping for them straws. You just used a what if scenario, trying to fill the information yourself. You didn't make the game, you didn't write anything. So long as this is true, I maintain my reasonable doubt. Deal with it.

No. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are not all the Nords of Skyrim.

This may be true, but any Nord who joins Tullius should be considered an Imperial. I can tolerate Neutrality, but betrayal? The horror.

That generally happens in the Moot itself, unless you have an army and decide you'd rather make your claim now.

Just like how Elisif was given an Imperial General to make her own army?

The Empire doesn't control who becomes High King/Queen of Skyrim. The Nords Jarls do, and the way the Nords elect their High King hasn't changed since the pact of Chieftains which predates all three Imperial Empires.

So show me your source the Empire is deciding? You have nothing to even back up your claim here. Stick to something you can back up, instead of the bullpl*** you go on about.

What would happen if a Jarl goes against Ulfric and decides to reject his claim? Would Ulfric kill them too? Is he unable to ever take no for an answer?

Pretty sure the Empire made their bid for who should be High Queen when they sent the IMPERIAL LEGION. Try to keep up.

Empire didn't force him. However, it isn't Ulfric against Elisif. It is Ulfric against the Empire, so there is no point saying "Well if the Empire wasn't there, Ulfric would be winning" if Ulfric wasn't there, things would be normal.

So, you're telling me that Ulfric's army that he's amassed wouldn't be able to fight the other holds? So, Skyrim doesn't need the Legion?

Finally, we agree.

I forgot, expecting some lore backing from you is few and far between.

I post a picture of George RR Martin, a clear parody of what you've been doing, and you complain about lack of lore...?

Spoiler

Thalmor have been inside the Empire's lands for over a hundred and fifty years. There isn't this "letting them" clearly you have no knowledge of the Thalmor.

That was back when they had to hide in the shadows. Now, they can walk around with a sign over their heads saying "Deal with it". That's so much better.

Doubtful, the Thalmor don't rely on brute strength. They excel as espionage, which the Stormcloaks lack any ability to counter. They fund bandits, cause uprisings, assassinate, manipulate etc.

Bandits, uprisings, etc. That's called a Proxy War. A war not designed to fight the Stormcloaks, but to fight the Empire. I'm sure they could care less about Skyrim with the Empire 'suddenly' on their feet again, something you implied Titus Mede did.

Gee, another comment that has absolutely nothing to do with the argument.

In Soviet Russia, deer shoots you!

I love Soviet Russia jokes, I'll say this now. But, unfortunately, that joke was crap. I understand what you were trying to do, but you lack the class and finesse to pull it off. You should be ashamed of yourself, of what you just did. It isn't my fault if you don't understand what I mean, I made my sarcasm obvious enough. Don't blame me for your lack of understanding.

No. If I did, then it was when I didn't know much about the lore. I say he's a puppet who is twenty steps behind the Thalmor, trying to wage a rebellion they planned and indirectly aid.

Both sides are getting played by the Thalmor, but the Imperials are figuring it out and are in a position to combat the Aldmeri Dominion and counter some of the Thalmor espionage.

Words are like sparrows, once released they may never be caught again. Its an old Russian proverb (somewhat ironic, being Russian and your lackluster joke from a moment ago). You should choose your words carefully. People say that this is your thread.

Well... here you are. Saying nothing right, saying everything wrong, grasping for straws, announcing that what the people once saw... will not be again. The Thalmor will be in Skyrim, no matter how much Ulfric will push to try to get them out, but Ulfric is relatively safe thanks to the Imperial Ulcer. If the Empire is using nothing but local men, Militia, then they don't matter to the Empire. If they did, they'd be Imperial Legion already.

The Civil War could probably last for years, Tullius and Ulfric dying. Skyrim falls into further infighting between the Holds and various claims for the title of High King. Aldmeri Dominion whoop both our asses, until Tamriel is saved by Khajiit.

Tamriel goes from Elven dominance, to mankind, to Khajiit... Then maybe the Argonians.

It could, but it won't. "It could" is just another "What if" afterall, if not more educated.

But, no worries, I caught your sarcasm (or blind hope) noting the Khajiit. What of it, after all? I said that there is no point arguing this issue the moment I returned. The lore will play out how it is, yet you sit here battering a bell that has rung for far too long... and for what? I, of course, answer the call... Not to stop the unending ringing... but to watch it shatter.

And when I returned to this forum... I came not with expectations to change your mind. I was free of the burden that lingers, the burden that there is a chance to persuade and reason. No, rather I came with a fury... I preached the futility of debate, I preached the coming tide of new information, the debauchery that is this thread in its whole.

No, I came not expecting to open any doors... but to watch as fire burns and tears this unending mass asunder. I am here to treat the fires, the hungering flames that rage and clash within our souls and our hearts. I am here... to salt the ashes that stray too far from inferno.

It is with a grin that I embark upon my task, a sacred smile with a gleam of struggle, the gleam of strife, and the purge of all that was once holy. I stand here with shattered water, unfit and unclean, and it shall be spread to condemn all that has been which has lead to this very moment in time. I stand unafraid, no goal nor cause, but conquest without reason. Conquest in the purest of forms, untainted and spoiled by moral dilemma.

You will know my name, you will speak my name, and you shall be humbled in my Magnificence for my name is Ozan. Let loose my title and remind yourself of the splendor granted to me in nine lifetimes. Listen to the name... and be furious. Be skeptical. Be offended, for I stand before you... carried by reckoning and sustained cruelty.

I am Ozan, the Magnificent Bastard... and I have come not to debate what is right or what is wrong... but to cradle your fears and feast upon your very soul.

I am going to hell, and I'm taking you with me.

 

[Lewsean]

Religions change, and they established the Eight/Nine Divines as the official religion of the Cyrodiil Empire.

Typical way, yes. Ignorant, no? You would be ignorant if you believed those who controlled religions never made changes, either good or bad.

You're ignorant to think someone controls religion. I've said this previously, no religion has EVER denounced their God for a new one.

Ancestors* the Aldmeri didn't worship Divines. "Aedra" roughly translates to "ancestor spirit", they believe themselves descendants of the Aedra.

The Divines were established by the Imperials as a compromise, which watered down the Nordic Gods to shadows of their original purpose.

The Imperial Cult has been dictating Nords should worship the Divines for an Era. Guess that is fine, it is alright to force a religious view onto the Nords, we're just not allowed to change it... again.

It was changed for the sake of peace, exactly how the Eight Divines came to be.

The Aedra are the Divines, hanging the name makes no difference to my statement. The religion is a variant of an Elven religion which makes the claim that the Imperials "created" the Eight Divines as false. The Eight Divines was started by Alessia, which in fact was a fusion of Nordic and Aldmeri pantheons, nothing to do with you Imperials. It was in fact your people who worshipped another peoples God's.(Nords & Elves)

The Divines are the Aedric deities which make up the official pantheon of the Cyrodilic Empire, and thus have been worshiped all across Tamriel.[1] Their membership was defined by Saint Alessia at the founding of the First Empire in the aftermath of the rebellion she led. Her now-emancipated people had long ago adopted the Aldmeri religion of their Ayleid captors, but the rebellion had only been won with the aid of armies from Skyrim, who adhered to the Nordic pantheon.[2] Alessia could not force either group to adopt the religion of the other, for fear of starting another war which would tear apart the newborn Empire. Instead, she developed an elegant synthesis of both traditions, combining common archetypes (mother goddess, god of death, etc.) and avoiding drastic changes.[3] This new pantheon was the Eight Divines, commonly called simply the Eight:

To say it was a compromise purely for the Nords sake is again your imperialistic superiority complex coming into play.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Wait, so the Imperials know the Thalmor are behind the uprising, yet they are okay with letting the Thalmor stand guard over the execution with no fear or concern that they wouldn't intervene? Tullius sounds pretty careless.

Notice how they leave.

The doorman in Solitude got to defend his position before he died, why not Ulfric?

Doorman couldn't kill someone by shouting, or send masses flying off city walls.

Right, just like how the Catholics control the Protestants and the Eastern Orthodox.

Bet they tried.

Clearly, not like you could ever be possibly wrong about ANYTHING ever in your life.

I never claim to be always right, I make mistakes all the time. Everyone else seems to take my word for gospel, and try make out I know everything. Never once claimed I do, nor do I promote such.

Clearly, you need to get over it.

Right, because murder is the exact same as freedom of Religion, nice to see, Grand Inquisitor Mage. That's an excellent comparison. Why don't we release all the murderers because their jail cell is reserved for those damn heretics, by Talos!

What if a religion allows murder, is that not oppressive of their religious beliefs? What if violence is accepted and indeed encouraged by a religion, and laws oppress that.

Is there truly freedom of anything except dying?

Gee, now I'm a heretic. :C

Aren't we all.

There is a point where it happened so long ago, it doesn't even register. You're grasping for straws and you're slandering the people you're trying to defend.

Fair point, I concede.

And you've turned your back on the most Colovian god. Does that make the Imperials any less Imperial?

He wasn't even worshiped much until Warp in the West. Was still Eight Divines in Daggerfall's time.

Gee, where was this patriotism when the Aldmeri invaded the first time around?

Did people not fight for their beliefs during the Great War? Not fight for their homes or families?

Just because the White-Gold Concordat was signed, doesn't mean they fought and died for nothing. Made a stand for their way of life, and had to make changes after nearly being destroyed.

You and your sources. Tell you what, you provide me a source saying he died in the prime of his life. I'm pretty sure he died of natural causes, and if he didn't I'll retract that statement.

Ulfric's had years, maybe twenty or at least ten. Doubt he was in jail for decades.

But not all the holds as High King. The High King may start as a Jarl, but they're not Jarls. Try to keep up.

They're still largely independent, they swear fealty to Skyrim's High King. Did Ulfric need Istlod or Torygg to help he and his father rule Eastmarch?

I'm sure you'd agree that the system in Skyrim is rather feudal (which is why the holds maintain so much independence). The holds have their taxes, then the a portion of the tax goes to the High King. The High King would also deal with a lot of the major political matters.

Besides political matters, Skyrim generally runs itself. Maybe you settle a matter between two Jarls, but I doubt there is much more too it. Unless you're the High King's of Old leading wars and conquests, then your reign is near Torygg's length.

There is a difference, there are perks, and there are benifits. Better to be High King than Jarl.

Better to be Emperor than High King, however they're both dying quickly.

You can't claim that the Imperial Army is enough to threaten the Aldmeri. Even if it has grown, wouldn't the Aldmeri's army also grow? You're already buying into blind fervor, enough to claim "WE WILL WIN WITHOUT EFFORT AT ALL!!!"

Why? They're only recently stirring up problems in Skyrim majorly, the Empire wouldn't recall it's Legions to the Dominion's border if they couldn't threaten them. Imperials rarely bluff in those situations, and with dialogue pointing towards another war.

Afterall, the Empire hadn't lost a war for two eras until the Aldmeri Dominion turned up. There is a difference between confidence and arrogance, something the Empire discovered at a high price.

The Empire hadn't surrendered in two eras, they've lost a couple of times, or have survived at a high price.

Ignoring that, a man terascapes the place with the power of a god, and you refuse to acknowledge his seat in the Pantheon? #JustImperialThings

I accept he is a God, as do many within the Empire still do. If he truly is the God of Mankind and the greatest hero of the Empire, he can take a hit for the team while the Empire rebuilds.

Isn't that how the Battle of the Red Ring was handled? I'm sure if Mede was the true mind of stratagem that you claimed he was, he would have managed his losses more efficiently and try to minimize the overall casualties so he could maintain his efforts. After all, the Aldmeri Army WAS defeated, he didn't have to give into demands at all and Ulfric wouldn't have had to rise to power.

The main Aldmeri Army in Cyrodiil was defeated, we have a second main army controlling southern Hammerfell and perhaps some Aldmeri forces still within Cyrodiil/borders of Valenwood.

You claim he didn't have to give into the demands, but the Imperial Army was extremely weakened and was unable to even keep order in the years of peace that followed.

Say the Imperials said no to peace, Southern Hammerfell is occupied so soldiers need to go there and you leave Cyrodiil still weak. Now while your forces fight in Hammerfell, we'd see the border skirmishes we saw during the Tiber Wars. The Empire was running out of time, the Aldmeri could sustain war for at least five more years.

Take into account the bandits, the fallen cities which have lost all form of law and order, Skyrim lost Markarth with no one to take it back (Ulfric being in Cyrodiil or Hammerfell with the war still on).

You have that smaller secondary Aldmeri force still within Cyrodiil somewhere. Cyrodiil is in ruins, the farms left abandoned. Wayrest gets sacked and captured by pirates.

Yet, no. He is so infallible in your eyes that you refuse to tolerate the words "should have", "could have", or "would have". History repeats itself because we didn't learn the first time around, but how can we learn when we refuse to acknowledge?

How can we learn if we don't take all things into account?

That's speculation, not hard evidence. Every coincidence has to be taken with a grain of salt, if the Thalmor did help Ulfric all those times then why didn't they help Ulfric this time? If guessing is to be used in the stead of place, how can anyone defend themselves?

Tullius catching on to their plans? Logical speculation, the Thalmor do have assets of other races, even Nords. It screams a little more than coincidence, doubt Ulfric is sensing danger through the force.

Oh, no? What about the Imperial Misc Quest after you join them called "Getting Outfitted"? Beirand gives you a free set of armor for whatever you prefer. He's getting paid for each set of armor he makes. This goes for most blacksmiths in the Imperial side of Skyrim, they are making a lot of armor and weapons for the Imperials and they're getting paid for it (the Battleborns try to get Whiterun to make weapons for the Imperials, too, saying they'll pay whatever it takes).

They may not have the manpower of the Empire, but they have the funding. And afterall, the Sinews of war are infinite money.

Tullius is spending Hold funds on the war, even taxing ships. The Stormcloaks aren't exactly charging for their services, and Ulfric is Jarl of a city with two shipping companies.

Sounds like the perfect solution if it'll only last months.

Oh no, their problems will probably last years. Skyrim doesn't remain united for very long.

More like a kick to the teeth, with a torn off right arm (Hammerfell) and an upset stomach (Skyrim). They killed the leading general of the Aldmeri dominion, they did they're own damage as well. I assure you that they could have gotten a White Peace rather than a White-Gold Concordat. They could have gotten something from what they've sacrificed, they could have fought for more. Not on the field, but at the truce. Instead, they say "Alright, I submit" rather than acknowledge they're equal ground.

If they had at least debated and tried for some changes in the treaty, I'd be far more sympathetic. But they didn't. They've earned their fate.

So you say they could have. You can win the battle, but still lose the war. Judging by the issues that rose during peace time, the Empire was in bad shape for years.

What was there to fight at the truce? Doubt the Empire would have lasted long if they waited. Doubt the Aldmeri would have accepted anything unless Talos was banned, and they already controlled Southern Hammerfell, the Blades were basically wiped out anyway.

So, he wants to surrender AFTER she dies? That last line of defense, Bro!

He is wounded and bleeding on the floor.

I'm not sure if you know what Markarth is or what their gates are made out of, but its Dwarven metal. Big doors. I imagine they'd lock the doors for a siege.

True, but...

Makes you wonder when fighting in the Civil War, why in the sieges gates are unlocked.

Unless I mistaken the Dwarven Metal for High King Toryggs, that door ain't going to open with a Fus Ro Dah. Take a moment and think before saying something so asinine.

Why not? Isn't the first time the Thu'um has smashed open gates during a siege. Hardly a stupid point. Even if he didn't smash open the gates with a shout, he was sending the defenders flying from the walls, could easily bring up a ram.

I'd have to look for it. Getting tired of you always DEMANDING a source for everything I say. Sounds to me that you're calling me a liar... I pray it isn't true, though, for I know it shall break my heart if it were.

Not at all, I don't know everything there is. Hell, I found a Dwemer ruin I never knew about recently... So.

More often curious.

Is that an actual statistic or a guesstimate? Regardless, Galmar doesn't rule Windhelm, so don't act like he does. A lot of folks are racist in the game, might I add.

Galmar is placed in charge of half of Skyrim...

The Dunmer, for one, were the most racist race that walks Tamriel. A fitting irony that here they are oppressed, no?

Not at all, while I do dislike the Dunmer, two wrongs don't make a right.

That being said, why DOES Ulfric need to know about the actions of a private citizen?

He doesn't, but a large number of his supporters are against outsiders, but he has guards who would see these things.

Holds and cities are downsized so the game doesn't become a hassle to navigate through, do you really expect the Jarl to know what every citizen is doing in his city while fighting a war? Can Titus Mede tell me the weather of High Rock as it happens? Can he tell me what his maid's brother is doing?

Not at all, but I would expect him to know how the more known members of his cities behave, he has some informants, and city guards.

The idiot Jarl of Falkreath knows how one of his citizens feel about the Stormcloaks. Ulfric doesn't know how his best friends brother is?

No, because he has more important pl*** to do. This is just your biased leaking out.

East Empire Trading Company shouldn't even be allowed in Windhelm. The East India Trading Company (what the EETC is based off) had its own military and dealt with its own diplomacy, but was ultimately a branch off the English Empire which is similar to the EETC in game (who has their own military and the Empire grants all funding too, and even is lead by the Emperor's cousin). If Ulfric were as grand as some of my Stormcloak comrades claimed him to be, he'd kick them out.

Yes, kick out the EETC. I'm sure that will work out well.

Walmart opens a new store every time they make a million dollars, doesn't mean I'm going to go shop there any time soon. Simply because something is made en masse, doesn't mean you should get it. Something like that tends to denote poor quality and cheap value, due to the abundance and the maintaining of this abundance. The EETC is a part of the Empire, hence East EMPIRE Trading Company. They shouldn't be trusted at all, even if they aren't spies.

Or maybe Legion armor is good to use? I wouldn't trust the EETC either, they're like the Weyland-Yutani of Tamriel.

I'm not saying it is an SS Uniform, all I'm saying is that you probably shouldn't wear what the enemy wears. It tends to be healthier this way. Wear what you want AFTER the war, like Neo-Nazis do.

Maybe Imperials are meant to win then.

A successful assassination leads to more assassination attempts. The guy who asked you to assassinate the Emperor even said that it'd put the Dark Brotherhood back on the map, and they only do one thing and that's murder.

Least Motierre was smart enough to send a double to reward you. Maybe he will do the Empire good.

Any who oppose the Empire is a friend to me.

Yes, this includes the Thalmor.

Stormcloaks support a pre-Treaty Empire. So if you only hate the Empire for their actions of the last twenty six years, then you're good.

Bullpl***, for the last few posts of yours you've been doing nothing but grasping for them straws. You just used a what if scenario, trying to fill the information yourself. You didn't make the game, you didn't write anything. So long as this is true, I maintain my reasonable doubt. Deal with it.

Oh please, everything you do is a grasp. "Well uh spain!" "President this!" "Ottomans!" How about you actually stick to TES? It isn't that fluffing hard, there isn't this lacking of valid points against the Empire, they've been in every single game.

I don't need to make the game, to understand why we don't know every single detail. You want to call out my posts as a straw grasp, but you're here preaching the Jarls are peasants because we don't know every single past ruler by name.

This may be true, but any Nord who joins Tullius should be considered an Imperial. I can tolerate Neutrality, but betrayal? The horror.

There is no neutrality. You're either a Stormcloak, or a traitor.

That generally happens in the Moot itself, unless you have an army and decide you'd rather make your claim now.

Just like how Elisif was given an Imperial General to make her own army?

Pretty sure the Empire made their bid for who should be High Queen when they sent the IMPERIAL LEGION. Try to keep up.

They sent the Imperial Legion? No, they sent Tullius. Pretty sure? Then why does Elisif's steward leave her fate undecided?

She may be Queen, she may not.

So, you're telling me that Ulfric's army that he's amassed wouldn't be able to fight the other holds? So, Skyrim doesn't need the Legion?

Finally, we agree.

Never said that.

That was back when they had to hide in the shadows. Now, they can walk around with a sign over their heads saying "Deal with it". That's so much better.

Majority of what they do is still in the shadows. No, they can't walk around with a sign over their heads.

Bandits, uprisings, etc. That's called a Proxy War. A war not designed to fight the Stormcloaks, but to fight the Empire. I'm sure they could care less about Skyrim with the Empire 'suddenly' on their feet again, something you implied Titus Mede did.

They won't ignore Skyrim. The Empire wouldn't really be on their feet if Skyrim breaks away, cutting off High Rock. Taking two thirds of resources that can be used for the war, good soldiers and leaders lost on both sides.

People say that this is your thread.

I honestly do not care what people think, obviously it is something that upsets you Stormcloaks. Because you lot keep bringing up "This is supposed to be your thread" "Aren't you supposed to be the lore master?"

I'll say it again, get the over what people say. I never claim to be 100% right, you can take what I say or diagree.

snip

I can argue for the Stormcloaks, just as easily as I would the Empire. I'm not that biased.

I'm tired of this debate... You're a good debater, and I can't be bothered anymore. So you win, I'm out of arguments. I'm done with it.

 

[DrunkenMage]

You're ignorant to think someone controls religion. I've said this previously, no religion has EVER denounced their God for a new one.

Perhaps.

The Aedra are the Divines, hanging the name makes no difference to my statement. The religion is a variant of an Elven religion which makes the claim that the Imperials "created" the Eight Divines as false. The Eight Divines was started by Alessia, which in fact was a fusion of Nordic and Aldmeri pantheons, nothing to do with you Imperials. It was in fact your people who worshipped another peoples God's.(Nords & Elves)

The Divines are the Aedric deities which make up the official pantheon of the Cyrodilic Empire, and thus have been worshiped all across Tamriel.[1] Their membership was defined by Saint Alessia at the founding of the First Empire in the aftermath of the rebellion she led. Her now-emancipated people had long ago adopted the Aldmeri religion of their Ayleid captors, but the rebellion had only been won with the aid of armies from Skyrim, who adhered to the Nordic pantheon.[2] Alessia could not force either group to adopt the religion of the other, for fear of starting another war which would tear apart the newborn Empire. Instead, she developed an elegant synthesis of both traditions, combining common archetypes (mother goddess, god of death, etc.) and avoiding drastic changes.[3] This new pantheon was the Eight Divines, commonly called simply the Eight:

To say it was a compromise purely for the Nords sake is again your imperialistic superiority complex coming into play.

You're right.

 

[Lewsean]

Doorman couldn't kill someone by shouting, or send masses flying off city walls.

Ulfric can't kill somebody by shouting. I find it hillarious how the Empire spreads propoganda about the Voice and how evil it is yet the Voice is the only thing that saves the world

What if a religion allows murder, is that not oppressive of their religious beliefs? What if violence is accepted and indeed encouraged by a religion, and laws oppress that.

Isn't that what the Empire is doing/allowing to be done? Murder by religion.. It's basically "Our God's are right, yours are wrong, you die".

He wasn't even worshiped much until Warp in the West. Was still Eight Divines in Daggerfall's time.

He was worshipped enough to appear as an aspect in Morrowind. I dont know anything about ascending to Godhood in the TES universe, but I'm sure it takes longer than 10 years of worship.

Why? They're only recently stirring up problems in Skyrim majorly, the Empire wouldn't recall it's Legions to the Dominion's border if they couldn't threaten them. Imperials rarely bluff in those situations, and with dialogue pointing towards another war.

There is also dialogue that shows your stretched thin, and that's just by having troops on your southern borders? 30 years later and your troop count can only manage to defend a southern border and lacks the numbers to offer support to fight a rebellion, it's embarrassing.

I accept he is a God, as do many within the Empire still do. If he truly is the God of Mankind and the greatest hero of the Empire, he can take a hit for the team while the Empire rebuilds.

Isn't that how the Battle of the Red Ring was handled? I'm sure if Mede was the true mind of stratagem that you claimed he was, he would have managed his losses more efficiently and try to minimize the overall casualties so he could maintain his efforts. After all, the Aldmeri Army WAS defeated, he didn't have to give into demands at all and Ulfric wouldn't have had to rise to power.

The main Aldmeri Army in Cyrodiil was defeated, we have a second main army controlling southern Hammerfell and perhaps some Aldmeri forces still within Cyrodiil/borders of Valenwood.

You claim he didn't have to give into the demands, but the Imperial Army was extremely weakened and was unable to even keep order in the years of peace that followed.

The Dominion would've never accepted the treaty if they were in any position to finish off the Empire. Why would an obviously superior force allow a weakened army to have peace and rebuild if they were able to achieve their main goal, which is to wipe them out?

Tullius catching on to their plans? Logical speculation, the Thalmor do have assets of other races, even Nords. It screams a little more than coincidence, doubt Ulfric is sensing danger through the force.

If Tullius had any indication the Thalmor were indeed helping the Stormcloaks yet still continued with the Civil War even though the Empire is supposedly on the brink of the second war with the Dominion, he's more of an idiot that I thought.

Oh no, their problems will probably last years. Skyrim doesn't remain united for very long.

What's the problem though? The Vikings(Yes, a real life comparison!) never once were a united people, yet they managed centurys of making an embarrassment over the "superior" Europeans. The will to win is far superior to any tactical advantage.
"In war, the moral is to the material as 3 is to 1."

He is wounded and bleeding on the floor.

Just compare both death scenes, Ulfric is on a different level.

Makes you wonder when fighting in the Civil War, why in the sieges gates are unlocked.

Actually, in the original Civil War files the gates are closed and you must find a way to open them

Galmar is placed in charge of half of Skyrim...

And a man who hates Nords is placed in charge of half of Skyrim for the Empire. Tell me, who would you prefer? A man who loves his race, but hates others, or a man who hates your race, and loves others?

Not at all, while I do dislike the Dunmer, two wrongs don't make a right.

The only wrong doing to the Dunmer of Windhelm are those that are lazy whiners who want it all for nothing. Any surprise the Dunmer who hates the attitude of his brothers is thriving in a supposedly racist Nord-only city?

Yes, kick out the EETC. I'm sure that will work out well.

It shows he's not a simple minded idiot like some people claim. Trading with the EETC is propserous for Skyrim and Windhelm so he does it, regardless of their ties to the Empire(Even though as has been said, they are independant)

Least Motierre was smart enough to send a double to reward you. Maybe he will do the Empire good.

Surely his time in the Empire is over? Using his Elder Council necklace as payment(Something like that doesn't keep quiet) to the DB to murder to Emperor lol.

They sent the Imperial Legion? No, they sent Tullius. Pretty sure? Then why does Elisif's steward leave her fate undecided?

She may be Queen, she may not.

She bangs on about her "rightful place as High Queen".. The woman doesn't even understand how her own customs work, she just assumes it's her right because the Empire want it to be.

Majority of what they do is still in the shadows. No, they can't walk around with a sign over their heads.

Erm, yes they can. They walk around Markarth and Solitude freely and will happily tell the PC they can do whatever tf they want thanks to Imperial Law.

I honestly do not care what people think, obviously it is something that upsets you Stormcloaks. Because you lot keep bringing up "This is supposed to be your thread" "Aren't you supposed to be the lore master?"

I'd love to see all these quotes from Pro-Stormcloaks!

 

[Raijin]

She would be demanding the prisoners, or at least the release of Ulfric Stormcloak into her charge. The dossier at least confirms this, even without the dialogue.

That maybe true but the dossier also confirms that the Thalmor is not getting indirectly involved in the ongoing civil war in Skyrim.

Ulfric and Galmar are hardly going to believe their cause is being played by the Thalmor. You believe this information would make Ulfric do a complete 180 on his actions, yet even when he is told he still kills Tullius, and gets you to still kill all Legionaries you find.

"As always, the Empire's fine words are worth nothing!" - Ulfric Stormcloak

Sometimes you need to make sacrifices in order to get something done.

No they're not. Colovia is an austere, martial culture... They are the warrior half of Cyrodiil.

The Colovian region has traditionally contributed its sons to the Imperial Legion, making up the bulk of its ranks in native legions. - Lore Colovia

The Colovian nobility, all officers of the Imperial Legions or its West Navy, do not allow themselves the great expenditure of courtly life as is seen in the capital city. They prefer immaculate uniforms and stark standards hanging from the ceiling of their austere cliff-fortresses - PGE, Cyrodiil/First Ed.

"Colovian officers have traditionally been appointed as provincial governors to the human regions of the Empire, as these often need the most forthright of the Emperor's men." - PGE, Cyrodiil/First Ed.

Saying Colovians are well known for their diplomacy is saying Nords are famous for making peace with elves.

Don't confuse Colovians and Nibenese.

Known as Cyrodiils, Cyrodilics or Cyro-Nordics before the time of Talos, the well-educated and well-spoken Imperials are the natives of the civilized, cosmopolitan province of Cyrodiil. Imperials are also known for the discipline and training of their citizen armies, and their respect for the rule of law. Though physically less imposing than the other races, the Imperials have proved to be shrewd diplomats and traders, and these traits, along with their remarkable skill and training as light infantry, have enabled them to subdue all the other nations and races and erect the monument to peace and prosperity that comprises the Glorious Empire.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Imperial

I was under the impression that the Imperials, as a race, was also known as Colovians, but either way the Imperials are known for their shrewd diplomats.... Tullius has shown us the complete opposite.

It is a rumor that has merit, Ulfric used the Thu'um. The Imperials gagged him, they're not underestimating it.

According to those rumors you indicated from earlier that Ulfric tore Torygg to asunder with his unrelenting shout... that Th'um. How on earth can a simple towel like rag is going to prevent Ulfric from shouting at them? I could never truly understand that logic. If those rumors are true... wouldn't Ulfric be able to shout the gag off?

Being paraded doesn't mean they would get to speak, and Ralof only assumes that. They were always going to be killed, either by the order of Tullius or Mede.

If he gave up for that reason, he's an idiot.

Imperials seems to like public executions which includes giving their prisoner their last rights... Ulfric could of very well use that to his advantages. If he is unable to speak due to the gag, one of his Stormcloak soldiers could be his voice.

Talos isn't a religion. The Eight/Nine Divines are, which is the pantheon of the Imperial Empire since the First Era. The Empire making changes to the religion they established is within their rights, even if you don't believe it is a good right.

"I'm here to show Bruma's errant Nords the path to the true faith. They must put aside their heathen gods and worship the Nine." - Arentus Falvius

Talos is part of the Ninth divines. What are you talking about? Talos is a religion to so many people. The Empire has no right to take away ones religion, and not face the consequences for their actions.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I'll do a few points.

The Dominion would've never accepted the treaty if they were in any position to finish off the Empire. Why would an obviously superior force allow a weakened army to have peace and rebuild if they were able to achieve their main goal, which is to wipe them out?

Too costly, the Dominion was weak also but still had the upperhand. Doubt they had the forces needed to completely control Cyrodiil. But, the Thalmor aren't above making mistakes their gamble to try wipe out the Empire ahead of plan backfired.

The treaty also gives them time to rebuild, but you have to put yourself in the shoes of the Thalmor/Aldmeri. Their greatest weakness is arrogance, they often underestimate mankind.

If Tullius had any indication the Thalmor were indeed helping the Stormcloaks yet still continued with the Civil War even though the Empire is supposedly on the brink of the second war with the Dominion, he's more of an idiot that I thought.

He has speculation, he isn't an idiot, he's doing his job. He hates the Thalmor enough he almost considers siding with the Stormcloaks. Now if he did that, I'd be a Stormcloak. Ulfric's charisma + Tullius' military tactics that would be interesting.

What's the problem though? The Vikings(Yes, a real life comparison!) never once were a united people, yet they managed centurys of making an embarrassment over the "superior" Europeans. The will to win is far superior to any tactical advantage.
"In war, the moral is to the material as 3 is to 1."

So were the Nords able to do so, until the First War of Succession. Thus far they haven't been able to properly unite for long enough to pose a threat. They're a powerful force to be sure, but their conflicting nature stops them being overpowered.

Just compare both death scenes, Ulfric is on a different level.

Ulfric gets to go to Sovngarde, he has grown up with the teaching that how he faces death is the most important thing. Tullius is an Imperial Military General, he doesn't have that death or glory thought process. He's basically your career soldier type.

And a man who hates Nords is placed in charge of half of Skyrim for the Empire. Tell me, who would you prefer? A man who loves his race, but hates others, or a man who hates your race, and loves others?

Was speaking about end of the Civil War. Tullius comes to respect the Nords, it isn't like he hates them. He didn't understand them at first, but during his time he comes to respect them. Rikke gets charged with political duties, I think she's a good choice.

The only wrong doing to the Dunmer of Windhelm are those that are lazy whiners who want it all for nothing. Any surprise the Dunmer who hates the attitude of his brothers is thriving in a supposedly racist Nord-only city?

It does swing both ways, the Dunmer aren't going about it in the best of ways. But, neither are the Stormcloaks.

It shows he's not a simple minded idiot like some people claim. Trading with the EETC is propserous for Skyrim and Windhelm so he does it, regardless of their ties to the Empire(Even though as has been said, they are independant)

They are independent, Vici is quite clear she got nothing from the Emperor. They're a merchant guild, be like saying the Shatter-Shield Shipping are Stormcloaks.

Ulfric isn't simple minded, but I think he cares more about his image than the people. Like as if he's trying to compensate for what the Thalmor did to him, broke him, made him feel weak.

Surely his time in the Empire is over? Using his Elder Council necklace as payment(Something like that doesn't keep quiet) to the DB to murder to Emperor lol.

Perhaps, but he mentions he isn't acting alone.

She bangs on about her "rightful place as High Queen".. The woman doesn't even understand how her own customs work, she just assumes it's her right because the Empire want it to be.

Cruel as it sounds, it isn't her wits that is needed... If I was in the Empire's place, I would look at her marrying a Prince or King in Hammerfell to reunite the Empire. She's kept alive on both sides, so someone has to make babies with the bimbo.

Be funny if the death of her husband and civil war change her, and she becomes this Warrior Queen who conquers Cyrodiil and the Aldmeri Dominion.

Erm, yes they can. They walk around Markarth and Solitude freely and will happily tell the PC they can do whatever tf they want thanks to Imperial Law.

Thalmor say a lot of crap though, their dialogue is heavily anti-Imperial and only ever speak highly of the Stormcloaks. They can't simply do as they please, they use assassin's of other races against you. If they do send a Death Squad, they carry a note if caught by the authorities they can't be helped.

I'd love to see all these quotes from Pro-Stormcloaks!

I'm sure I've seen some people mention it when I debate them, don't think it is just Ozan. If I'm mistaken, then I take it back.

 

[DrunkenMage]

That maybe true but the dossier also confirms that the Thalmor is not getting indirectly involved in the ongoing civil war in Skyrim.

They won't get directly involved if it remains undecided. Ulfric getting captured or walking into a trap is bad. They're indirectly involved, aiding the Stormcloaks.

Sometimes you need to make sacrifices in order to get something done.

Titus II would agree.

I was under the impression that the Imperials, as a race, was also known as Colovians, but either way the Imperials are known for their shrewd diplomats.... Tullius has shown us the complete opposite.

Imperials in general, but you'd be thinking of the Nibenese of Cyrodiil East.

Colovians are your more nordic Imperials, but instead of mead, glory and sovngarde. They're more an ale, discipline, military service, where the nobility are more Military Officers than your merchants or politicians of the East. Lore wise vast differences between the two, gameplay not really.

Tullius is a Military General, bit of an oxymoron for him to be a highly skilled diplomat. He mentions he gets sent to places that need fixing, so he's probably the man you would send when diplomacy isn't an option.

Bit like saying Nords are famous for being two handed warriors who live for violence and using Ulfric's steward, Skald's servant or the head of the Battle-Born's as an example.

Edit: The Third Legion nicknamed "The Faithful" was one of Tiber's famous Colovian Legions. Fought in the Moth Rebellion when Tiber had lost control of the Imperial City, if I remember right they got it back for him. Khajiit would probably hate them for Senchal.

Edit 2: Titus Mede was your typical Colovian, probably why the Nords of Skyrim endorsed him as their Emperor. 'This wasn’t court, and the Emperor wasn’t dressed for it. He wore a plain Colovian soldier’s tunic of dark gray wool and leather breeks. His crown was a plain gold circlet. A broadsword in a battered scabbard hung at his side. Two soldiers stood yards away, but Colin suspected that if he tried anything, he would be dead at Mede’s hand before either of them could move.' - Lord of Souls

According to those rumors you indicated from earlier that Ulfric tore Torygg to asunder with his unrelenting shout... that Th'um. How on earth can a simple towel like rag is going to prevent Ulfric from shouting at them? I could never truly understand that logic. If those rumors are true... wouldn't Ulfric be able to shout the gag off?

Shouting requires you to shout, you have to form words. Hard to speak with a rag down your mouth. If you really want funny logic, look at an image of Ulfric in Helgen... His hands are in front of him, could easily just remove it himself. Either that is a poor design choice, or Ulfric had a two day long blonde moment.

Imperials seems to like public executions which includes giving their prisoner their last rights... Ulfric could of very well use that to his advantages. If he is unable to speak due to the gag, one of his Stormcloak soldiers could be his voice.

Doubt people in the Imperial City would really care, to them he'd be a traitor and a rebel. None of them speak at Helgen much, especially not about the cause to the town.

Talos is part of the Ninth divines. What are you talking about? Talos is a religion to so many people. The Empire has no right to take away ones religion, and not face the consequences for their actions.

Talos is a God, not a religion on it's own. Unless maybe for the Talos Cult, and all they generally care about is assassinating every Emperor.

Edit: Go debate another person I got nothing left.

 

[Lewsean]

I was under the impression that the Imperials, as a race, was also known as Colovians, but either way the Imperials are known for their shrewd diplomats.... Tullius has shown us the complete opposite.

Nice read about the difference between them http://theskyrimblog.ning.com/group/lore/forum/topics/the-imperial-divide-colovian-and-nibenese

Surprised they are basically half Nord, half Imperial.(The colovians)

 

[DrunkenMage]

I think you Stormcloaks would have liked Titus Mede (The first), thousands of undead besieging the Imperial City and a floating island of doom seemingly unstoppable continuing it's advance. He couldn't be convinced to evacuate the Imperial City, was willing to stay with his subjects.

 

[Lewsean]

I think you Stormcloaks would have liked Titus Mede (The first), thousands of undead besieging the Imperial City and a floating island of doom seemingly unstoppable continuing it's advance. He couldn't be convinced to evacuate the Imperial City, was willing to stay with his subjects.

I can picture that from the stuff I'm reading right now, Colovians are supposedly the more die hard Empire supporters with a strong sense of loyalty towards it. I may actually be able to play as an Imperial Dragonborn with a bit of help from the Racemenu to make them more warrioresque due to their old Nordic lineage!

 

[DrunkenMage]

I can picture that from the stuff I'm reading right now, Colovians are supposedly the more die hard Empire supporters with a strong sense of loyalty towards it. I may actually be able to play as an Imperial Dragonborn with a bit of help from the Racemenu to make them more warrioresque due to their old Nordic lineage!

Aye, Colovians are my favorite. I'm quick to defend them from people who confuse them with the Nibenese, calling them corrupt and fat merchants. Now you understand why I find Imperials far more interesting with the Colovian/Nibenese concept to them. They're not as dull as people initially think.

I had my Colovian Dragonborn wear the Penitus Oculatus armor. I think that and Tullius' armor style matches their preference for immaculate uniforms, suppose there would be few mods that gives you different colours/style of that armor.

 

[Lewsean]

I can picture that from the stuff I'm reading right now, Colovians are supposedly the more die hard Empire supporters with a strong sense of loyalty towards it. I may actually be able to play as an Imperial Dragonborn with a bit of help from the Racemenu to make them more warrioresque due to their old Nordic lineage!

Aye, Colovians are my favorite. I'm quick to defend them from people who confuse them with the Nibenese, calling them corrupt and fat merchants. Now you understand why I find Imperials far more interesting with the Colovian/Nibenese concept to them. They're not as dull as people initially think.

I had my Colovian Dragonborn wear the Penitus Oculatus armor. I think that and Tullius' armor style matches their preference for immaculate uniforms, suppose there would be few mods that gives you different colours/style of that armor.

Indeed, I'll admit I was the first to judge them all as just to typical trader/noble type of people, didn't really know much about the Colovian/Nibenese difference I've always tried to find a mod that gives you a full set of Tullius style equipment, but couldn't fine none The best you can get to match is what Tullius is already wearing, light armor.. Really surprised the few mods that Tullius armor has to be honest.
What type of combat are the Colovian most famous for? I think I read something along the lines of them creating the first 'Battle Mages'(For Humans) so to speak, and creating little Kingdoms after the Alessian period.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Indeed, I'll admit I was the first to judge them all as just to typical trader/noble type of people, didn't really know much about the Colovian/Nibenese difference

I did too at first, but I did play Oblivion a lot and discovered there were mentions to two different cultures. I fell in love with the Colovian Highlands, was pleased there was a small dlc which gave you a castle (player house) in the Highlands.

I've always tried to find a mod that gives you a full set of Tullius style equipment, but couldn't fine none The best you can get to match is what Tullius is already wearing, light armor.. Really surprised the few mods that Tullius armor has to be honest.

What a shame, I found the Oculatus/Tullius armors to be one of the best looking. Found the deep red really stand out on Imperials.

What type of combat are the Colovian most famous for? I think I read something along the lines of them creating the first 'Battle Mages'(For Humans) so to speak, and creating little Kingdoms after the Alessian period.

Colovians were your light/heavy infantry, plus most of your officers in the Legion/Imperial Navy.

If I recall the Legion Battlemages first came from the Nebenese, they were more sophisticated at the time.

 

[Ivory]

If I recall the Legion Battlemages first came from the Nebenese, they were more sophisticated at the time.

Abnur Tharn also mentions the differences between the colovians and the imperials most are familiar with. He's a politician, not too kind to his Colovian siblings. He's also fiercely loyal to the end of the Earth to the Empire. Not even to the Emperor himself. After the emperor's death, he sides with Mannimarco with a time because he knows it's the only way to protect his people and the Empire, despite being a shell of what it was at that point. He's an ass, but he knows what he has to do to not only protect his image, but his people. Which once the Vestige comes along, he abandons Mannimarco now that action was being taken against the King of Worms.

Although he does end up wasting his life trying to use the power of the Amulet of Kings after the Vestige ends up draining it's power in a futile attempt to gain hold. Selfish to the end that one.

 

[Raijin]

Nice read about the difference between them http://theskyrimblog.ning.com/group/lore/forum/topics/the-imperial-divide-colovian-and-nibenese

Surprised they are basically half Nord, half Imperial.(The colovians)

From what is written on the article it seems like Bethesda fluffed up on the race menu listing "Imperial" as a race as they should of given us the choice of being a Nibeneans or a Colovians.

Bethesda - the root of why such threads such as this one exist. Their own errors is what cause such unrest in the political aspects of the Elders scrolls.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

If you really want funny logic, look at an image of Ulfric in Helgen... His hands are in front of him, could easily just remove it himself. Either that is a poor design choice, or Ulfric had a two day long blonde moment.

Mentioning weird intro design/bad details, why is it that the Dragonborn-to-be has his/her clothes taken while the rest is still in their Stormcloak uniform? Almost sounds like a rape story to me.

Bethesda - the root of why such threads such as this one exist. Their own errors is what cause such unrest in the political aspects of the Elders scrolls.

Bethesda isn't responsible for players who refuse to get little hints into their heads.

All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat. Otherwise, any hope to stem the tide of Thalmor rule over all of Tamriel is dimmed.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

They can't add books to the game called "Bethesda's Lore Facts for Dummies". Besides, if they had wanted threads purely made of "oh mai gawd i hate thalmor so muuuch" they wouldn't have made the Stormcloaks a playable faction.

 

[Raijin]

Mentioning weird intro design/bad details, why is it that the Dragonborn-to-be has his/her clothes taken while the rest is still in their Stormcloak uniform? Almost sounds like a rape story to me.

I always make handsome Dragonborns ( look at some of my screenshots) when it comes to designing them from the race menu. The Imperials can't seem to resist each one, and so they're force, through impulse, to throw themselves on my Dragonborns by taking off his clothes while he's unconscious. Who knows what they did to them while they were out cold. Only the gods knows what happen on that exact timeframe.

Theirs a lot to talk about, but on that day is off limits.

Perhaps this is a side effect from not having enough women in the legion to satisfy the male Imperial soldiers, and so they kidnap innocent people from the roads, and do things with them while their knocked out. To silence them they send them off to be executed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Raijin]

Bethesda isn't responsible for players who refuse to get little hints into their heads.

All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat. Otherwise, any hope to stem the tide of Thalmor rule over all of Tamriel is dimmed.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

They can't add books to the game called "Bethesda's Lore Facts for Dummies". Besides, if they had wanted threads purely made of "oh mai gawd i hate thalmor so muuuch" they wouldn't have made the Stormcloaks a playable faction.

You can't be serious are you? Bethesda acknowledge through their race menu that Imperial is a race while the lore indicates otherwise. If Imperial is not a race why is it in the race menu to choose from? Nice way to confuse your players through misconception and false information.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[LegateFasendil]

Nice read about the difference between them http://theskyrimblog.ning.com/group/lore/forum/topics/the-imperial-divide-colovian-and-nibenese

Surprised they are basically half Nord, half Imperial.(The colovians)

From what is written on the article it seems like Bethesda fluffed up on the race menu listing "Imperial" as a race as they should of given us the choice of being a Nibeneans or a Colovians.

Bethesda - the root of why such threads such as this one exist. Their own errors is what cause such unrest in the political aspects of the Elders scrolls.

Yeah I actually had noticed this while planning my Oblivion racial mod for Skyrim.

The Nibs have a lot of Elven ancestry, not unlike the Bretons. The Colovians are closer to the Nords / Redguards.

Realizing this, I understood why Beth put such a strong emphasis on magic into the Imperial race. At first I was like ~ Whaaa ~ but it makes sense if you think about.

However, that's where the pros end. Because the Imperials were *awkwardly* short in Skyrim. That's another reason, I just can't play Skyrim until I can find a way to fix that or perhaps someone else already has. I think so. But I'm picky about things of this nature.