Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[LegateFasendil]

Bethesda isn't responsible for players who refuse to get little hints into their heads.

All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat. Otherwise, any hope to stem the tide of Thalmor rule over all of Tamriel is dimmed.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

They can't add books to the game called "Bethesda's Lore Facts for Dummies". Besides, if they had wanted threads purely made of "oh mai gawd i hate thalmor so muuuch" they wouldn't have made the Stormcloaks a playable faction.

You can't be serious are you? Bethesda acknowledge through their race menu that Imperial is a race while the lore indicates otherwise. If Imperial is not a race why is it in the race menu to choose from? Nice way to confuse your players through misconception and false information.


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Well, you can't really say that. Imperial is a race, it's a melting pot of races of man. The 'Lost Tribes' who were all unified into the Alessian Empire. So yeah, those are Imperials because whoever they really were has all long faded into the forgotten past. It's also about Cyrodil, the 'Imperial' Capital Provence. So, there's nothing wrong with their race being ref'd to as Imperials.

Also, Beth seems big on players being able to put the shoe on and do everything they can to make it fit for the player. So, you could in theory, call yourself a Nib or a Colov and change your facial features / char profile.

What they could have done better (and did better in ESO) was have a better character profile with more options for customization. It can't be that hard. No physics involved or navmesh or uncluttering terrain, things like that.

In Skyirm, Beth should have had a dedicated team to explore this option and make it happen. Alas, Skyrim was a waste, not wasted, just could have done so much more. I do however, like the Skyrim engine better than the ESO one.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Religions change, and they established the Eight/Nine Divines as the official religion of the Cyrodiil Empire.

Typical way, yes. Ignorant, no? You would be ignorant if you believed those who controlled religions never made changes, either good or bad.

You're ignorant to think someone controls religion. I've said this previously, no religion has EVER denounced their God for a new one.

Oh is that so? Then you've never heard of 'the church' then now have you?

Catholic / Orthodox. mmm mmm

Where there is money to be had, someone will be in control of it.

And it's not necessarily God either. Money = Power = Control.

Anywhere, ANYTHING that produces money or gen wealth will be controlled by someone.

If you understood the 'Science of Economics' my friend, there wouldn't be a question otherwise.

By def, things are supposed to work a certain way on paper... but that's a 2D world. Ours is 1, 2, 3, carry the 7 = I dunno but it's not 2D.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Indeed, I'll admit I was the first to judge them all as just to typical trader/noble type of people, didn't really know much about the Colovian/Nibenese difference

I did too at first, but I did play Oblivion a lot and discovered there were mentions to two different cultures. I fell in love with the Colovian Highlands, was pleased there was a small dlc which gave you a castle (player house) in the Highlands.

I liked messing with the gate. Because you could start all kinds of fights around the castle and then lure the ai to the gate and kill them either thru the gate or above on the walls. Good times.

 

[DrunkenMage]

You can't be serious are you? Bethesda acknowledge through their race menu that Imperial is a race while the lore indicates otherwise. If Imperial is not a race why is it in the race menu to choose from? Nice way to confuse your players through misconception and false information.

They are vastly different, however it would be pointless to create two races. You can easily just create a Nibenese or Colovian using the Imperial model. Role playing isn't hard, they're vastly different in terms of culture.

"Imperials" being a race isn't bad, since it most often refers to Colovian/Nibenese. Although technically you do get the Nords and Bretons sometimes being called Imperial.

But the Redguards should not forget the great sacrifice of Imperial blood - Breton, Nord, and Cyrodilic - at the Battle of the Red Ring... - A Concise Account of the Great War Between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion.

Colovians are my favorite, and you should never be hating on them. I hope next game if the Empire falls that the Colovian Estates pop back up. Hopefully we can regain control of our beloved Falkreath once more.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Nibs have a lot of Elven ancestry, not unlike the Bretons.

Interestingly the Nibenese also have a bit of Akaviri blood.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Perhaps this is a side effect from not having enough women in the legion to satisfy the male Imperial soldiers

Then perhaps that's why that female Redguard Captain that sends you to be executed 'for the lulz' seemed to be in a bad mood. Lack of sleep will do that to you.

 

[Orien Terrik]

The Empire was being devastated the first couple of years from the Great War because they were caught off guard. However, around the 2 1/2 to three year mark the Empire put up heavy resistance. The Legion leftovers in Hammerfell where able to push back the dominion entirely, while the rest annihilated the dominion invasion force of Cyriidol. Both sides were weakened, and so the concord was signed. Hammerfell separated from the empire, however, many imperial soldiers were "Honorably Discharged" and went to fight with the red guards. Talos was "banned" in the empire. However the ban was never enforced by the empire. In fact, Ulfric's rebellion is what caused the Thalmor Justicars to come into skyrim. Tulius and the Fourth Legion were dispatched to Skyrim to end the Rebellion as quickly as possible. In fact, many Nords served in the 4th Legion. Heck, their second in command was a Nord. Ulfric, while not realizing it, was actually helping the dominion by tearing apart the empire even more, the Thalmor even say this. Now let's think about it like this. The Imperials win the civil war. They are able to rebuild their forces, and are prepared and ready to face the dominion when they come, with almost full strength. When the Empire fights the dominion again, Hammerfell will join them. Let's say the stormcloaks win. The Empire leaves skyrim. The dominion invades almost instantly. Skyrim will be lost within a matter of weeks. As awesome as Nords are, and as skilled as they are in battle, they have no chance against the coordinated, brutal military power the dominion has, the power that almost brought down the Empire. Ulfric, unfortunately, doesn't have the tactical genius to fight that war, especially since he didn't even realize his whole Rebellion helped the Dominion in the first place. The only way that Skyrim could have a future is to side with the Empire. The Empire is really the only option RP wise in the long haul. Long live the Empire and it's Legionaries. Long live the Emperor.

 

[Lewsean]

In fact, Ulfric's rebellion is what caused the Thalmor Justicars to come into skyrim.

The WGC gave them free roam of the Empire's provinces.

Let's say the stormcloaks win. The Empire leaves skyrim. The dominion invades almost instantly. Skyrim will be lost within a matter of weeks.

The Legion isn't even in Skyrim.. And how on earth did you come to the conclusion Skyrim is easy to take over? It's surrounded by provinces hostile to the Thalmor, it's THE MOST fortified province in Tamriel, with very, very few points of entrance. If you support the Empire, fine, but don't let that get in the way of common sense.

As awesome as Nords are, and as skilled as they are in battle, they have no chance against the coordinated, brutal military power the dominion has, the power that almost brought down the Empire.

Do a bit of reading on the Great War and you'll find that it was largely the Nord Legions who saved the Imperial City. In a 5-day battering from Thalmor, they stood strong and wiped them all out. Not bad for an unorganized barbarian race that lacks tactics eh?

 

[Orien Terrik]

In fact, Ulfric's rebellion is what caused the Thalmor Justicars to come into skyrim.

The WGC gave them free roam of the Empire's provinces.

Let's say the stormcloaks win. The Empire leaves skyrim. The dominion invades almost instantly. Skyrim will be lost within a matter of weeks.

The Legion isn't even in Skyrim.. And how on earth did you come to the conclusion Skyrim is easy to take over? It's surrounded by provinces hostile to the Thalmor, it's THE MOST fortified province in Tamriel, with very, very few points of entrance. If you support the Empire, fine, but don't let that get in the way of common sense.

As awesome as Nords are, and as skilled as they are in battle, they have no chance against the coordinated, brutal military power the dominion has, the power that almost brought down the Empire.

Do a bit of reading on the Great War and you'll find that it was largely the Nord Legions who saved the Imperial City. In a 5-day battering from Thalmor, they stood strong and wiped them all out. Not bad for an unorganized barbarian race that lacks tactics eh?

Thw WGC gave it free roam, sure, but they became fixated on Skyrim, concentrating, and making Skyrim their main focus. All that was thanks to Ulfric. Secondly, yes, the Legion is in Skyrim. The Fourth Legion, commanded by General Tullius, are in Skyrim to quell the uprising. And Skyrim will not be able to stand against the might of the Dominion alone, or with Hammerfel. Lets not forget during the Great War, the Nords fought with the Legions too, and they were still getting whooped the first few years. The Empire won't be able to help because it will be weakened even more by SKyrim not being a part of it, losing its Nord legions. I never said Nords were Barbadians, or weren't tactical, I said Ulfric wasn't. Don't forget, the Dominion has had time to rebuild its forces as well. Thirdly, it wasn't just the Nord Legions, but all the remaining ones. The Nord Legions watched one wall, the ones from Hammerfel another, and the rest went in with the Emperor into the city. Most of the Nord legions corralled and kept the Thalmor forces from escaping. I love the Nords, but they have no chance against the Dominion without the Empire, just as the Empire has no chance without Skyrim.

 

[Lewsean]

Thw WGC gave it free roam, sure, but they became fixated on Skyrim, concentrating, and making Skyrim their main focus. All that was thanks to Ulfric.

They were actually doing everything they can to START the Civil War as Skyrim were the Empires last great ally after the Great War. The Civil War was the whole idea behind forcing the Talos ban, to create a struggle between Cyrodill & Skyrim.

Secondly, yes, the Legion is in Skyrim. The Fourth Legion, commanded by General Tullius, are in Skyrim to quell the uprising.

No, they really aren't lol. There is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever that says anything about the fourth legion being in Skyrim. The Legion troops in Skyrim are locally recruited Nords, hence the Civil War, it wouldn't be a Civil War if the people you were fighting were foreigners.

And Skyrim will not be able to stand against the might of the Dominion alone, or with Hammerfel. Lets not forget during the Great War, the Nords fought with the Legions too, and they were still getting whooped the first few years. The Empire won't be able to help because it will be weakened even more by SKyrim not being a part of it, losing its Nord legions. I never said Nords were Barbadians, or weren't tactical, I said Ulfric wasn't. Don't forget, the Dominion has had time to rebuild its forces as well.

Considering the tactical advantage and the advantage of being the defending nation, yes Skyrim can absolutely defend against the Thalmor.. The Dominion isn't a super force, they rely heavily on cloak and dagger tactics, which is why they need Skyrim and the Empire to split. They only managed to take Cyrodill for a short while and were pushed out of Hammerfell, and that was after launching a surprise attack. Do you think they'd be so lucky against nation(s) who are ready for it?
Skyrim being part of the Empire or not will not effect it's strength from this point on, the Nords loyal to the Empire are with the Empire, the Nords not loyal are with Ulfric. Ulfric is tactical, he's ex-legion and has over 30 years of experience in warfare. Elves age at a much slower rate then Men, 30-40 years is enough for humans to re-stock on Soldiers, but for Elves you're still an infant.

Thirdly, it wasn't just the Nord Legions, but all the remaining ones. The Nord Legions watched one wall, the ones from Hammerfel another, and the rest went in with the Emperor into the city. Most of the Nord legions corralled and kept the Thalmor forces from escaping. I love the Nords, but they have no chance against the Dominion without the Empire, just as the Empire has no chance without Skyrim.

The second army, largely of Nord legions under General Jonna, took up position near Cheydinhal...

On the 30th of Rain's Hand, the bloody Battle of the Red Ring began as General Decianus swept down on the city from the west, while General Jonna's legionnaires drove south along the Red Ring Road. In a two-day assault, Jonna's army crossed the Niben and advanced west, attempting to link up with Decianus's legions and thus surround the Imperial City. Lord Naarifin was taken by surprise by Decianus's assault, but Jonna's troops faced bitter resistance as the Aldmeri counterattacked from Bravil and Skingrad. The heroic Nord legionnaires held firm, however, beating off the piecemeal Aldmeri attacks. By the fifth day of the battle, the Aldmeri army in the Imperial City was surrounded....

An attempt by the Aldmeri to break out of the city to the south was blocked by the unbreakable shieldwall of General Jonna's battered legions.

In the end, the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed.

The next war will still be man vs mer, the Civil War is about the Empire occupying Skyrim whilst being too weak to defy the Thalmor, many Nords despise the fact that they are really an underling to an underlind and will not live out their lives whilst the Empire sits idely by and tells Skyrim what to do whilst being told what to do them selves.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Do a bit of reading on the Great War and you'll find that it was largely the Nord Legions who saved the Imperial City. In a 5-day battering from Thalmor, they stood strong and wiped them all out. Not bad for an unorganized barbarian race that lacks tactics eh?

The Nord Legions did well, but it wasn't solely them. There were Nord Legions fighting within Cyrodiil since before the Imperial City itself fell. Ulfric got captured around that time also. The Nords didn't "save the Imperial city" themselves, they took piecemeal counter attacks when moving into position, but their greatest achievement was stopping the retreating Aldmeri. Leaving the main army unable to regroup. All the Legions are credited for their deeds, they're all on the same side.

If anything, I would have to say the greatest Legion in the Great War, was the 8th Legion. Knowingly sacrificing themselves so the rest could fall back and regroup, takes courage to stay and fight when you know you're going to be killed.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Ulfric is tactical, he's ex-legion and has over 30 years of experience in warfare.

Vignar is the one with thirty years as a Legion Commander. Ulfric himself has four years of Military experience, he's a better politician than Military General. He relies on his steward and Galmar for military advice.

They make a team. Ulfric looking at the politicial effects of his actions, Galmar the Military and the Steward looks at the whole logical situation as stewards tend to do, seen here:

Ulfric: "Galmar thinks we should double our men in the Reach."
Jorleif: "A reasonable strategy."
Ulfric: "And you, Jorleif?"
Jorleif: "Well, sir, the hold of Falkreath is fairly vulnerable, and blocks the only road from Cyrodiil."
Ulfric: "A good point, old friend. "
Jorleif: "To be sure, my lord, I am not skilled in the arts of war or military tactics."
Ulfric: "But you're able to see the whole in the parts, and for that I'm grateful."

 

[DrunkenMage]

Secondly, yes, the Legion is in Skyrim. The Fourth Legion, commanded by General Tullius, are in Skyrim to quell the uprising.

The Fourth Legion has never been mentioned. Tullius is commanding several makeshift Legions, local militia making up the majority with some veteran Legionaries. A single Legion wouldn't be enough manpower to control Skyrim. Province is too large, between bandits, Forsworn and Stormcloaks there is no way one Legion could handle all of that.

Skyrim is huge, if Tullius was only commanding a single Legion... Then I would begin to question the sanity of his superiors. As much as I like Tullius, he's hardly as skilled as the Emperor Titus Mede, when Titus was able to defeat an uprising with barely two thousand soldiers.

Not even Tiber Septim managed that. Took an entire Legion to recapture the Imperial City after he lost his throne to... Moth Priests, of all people. Though I suppose they can be fanatical crazy bastards, even still... Losing the capital to blind monks in sandals. Shame Heimskr never talks about those days.

 

[Lewsean]

Do a bit of reading on the Great War and you'll find that it was largely the Nord Legions who saved the Imperial City. In a 5-day battering from Thalmor, they stood strong and wiped them all out. Not bad for an unorganized barbarian race that lacks tactics eh?

The Nord Legions did well, but it wasn't solely them. There were Nord Legions fighting within Cyrodiil since before the Imperial City itself fell. Ulfric got captured around that time also. The Nords didn't "save the Imperial city" themselves, they took piecemeal counter attacks when moving into position, but their greatest achievement was stopping the retreating Aldmeri. Leaving the main army unable to regroup. All the Legions are credited for their deeds, they're all on the same side.

If anything, I would have to say the greatest Legion in the Great War, was the 8th Legion. Knowingly sacrificing themselves so the rest could fall back and regroup, takes courage to stay and fight when you know you're going to be killed.

Where do you find the lore on bits of information like that? They most certainly sound like a bunch of bad asses, I'd love to read some lore about the Great War and the heroic deeds of each Legion.

I was just pointing that out about the Nord legions as there seems to be a common misconception that Nords are a bunch of 'run in clueless' type of fighters, probably due to the Stormcloaks using gorilla tactics and two handed weapons in Skyrim making them seem less disciplined and tacticaly astute than they actually are.

Titus Mede got Tiber beat though, took an entire Legion to recapture the Imperial City when Tiber Septim lost his throne to Moth Priests. Mede took the city with one thousand men, and defeated an uprising with barely twice that.

Indeed, Tiber's accomplishments were something to behold, but he was helped largely by the infighting in every province across Tamriel during that time. He was also a political genius of sorts, taking half of Tamriel by diplomatic means. To take any major City, especially the Imperial City, with only 1,000 men is quite a feat.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Where do you find the lore on bits of information like that? They most certainly sound like a bunch of bad asses, I'd love to read some lore about the Great War and the heroic deeds of each Legion.

You find bits of information about Legions in all different places. The Eighth Legion is mentioned in the Great War book, often overlooked when in search of arguments on both sides.

While the Eighth Legion fought a desperate (and doomed) rearguard action on the walls of the city, Titus II broke out of the city to the north with his main army, smashing through the surrounding the Aldmeri forces and linking up with reinforcements marching south from Skyrim under General Jonna.

The Tenth Legion sacrificed themselves on Akavir with the Emperor, allowing the other forces retreat to the ships.

Third Legion earned their nickname "The Faithful" during the Moth Rebellion, after they were besieged by fanatics in a barracks. (They also took part in a massacre against the Khajiit when they were given free reins by a General) They got mostly wiped out in an ambush by the Dominion.

Morrowind, they didn't mention a number but during that game you join the "Deaths head Legion"

Seventh and Fifteeth Legions aided the Orcs and escorted them into Hammerfell. (Seventh Legion has a dark history during the Alliance Wars)

The Eighteenth Legion is mentioned in the Novels, apparently they fought alongside Titus Mede. (I think)

I was just pointing that out about the Nord legions as there seems to be a common misconception that Nords are a bunch of 'run in clueless' type of fighters, probably due to the Stormcloaks using gorilla tactics and two handed weapons in Skyrim making them seem less disciplined and tacticaly astute than they actually are.

The Stormcloaks do have organization, they have ex Legion within their ranks.

Reburrus: "I have a few very detailed missives from border patrols, beginning with Fifth Irregulars' reports on the movements of...."
Yngvar: "Oh, Talos's breath, Reberrus [sic]. Skip ahead to the good part."
Reburrus: "Oh, right. Oh, well, things are going well enough. At least, as well as we can hope."
Thongvor: "What does that mean Reberrus [sic]? Are we winning or aren't we?"
Reburrus: "I, uh, I can't tell Thongvor. It's anyone's guess."

Nords generally may not have the most "discipline" among ranks, they're not traditionally like the Legions. They're not clueless, and they do have tactics and methods.

They were more fun when they did raiding, then it was 'run in, grab everything that isn't nailed down'

 

[DrunkenMage]

I can picture that from the stuff I'm reading right now, Colovians are supposedly the more die hard Empire supporters with a strong sense of loyalty towards it.

I forgot to mention what Colovians are most famous for yesterday.

Indeed, the Colovians have taken to calling their enemy the "Old Mary" Dominion, for the womanly offensives of its Elven soldiers. - PGE, Aldmeri Dominion

 

[Lewsean]

I can picture that from the stuff I'm reading right now, Colovians are supposedly the more die hard Empire supporters with a strong sense of loyalty towards it.

I forgot to mention what Colovians are most famous for yesterday.

Indeed, the Colovians have taken to calling their enemy the "Old Mary" Dominion, for the womanly offensives of its Elven soldiers. - PGE, Aldmeri Dominion

LOL! I love them!

 

[DrunkenMage]

To take any major City, especially the Imperial City, with only 1,000 men is quite a feat.

Aye, Titus Mede was quite skilled to be able to capture the Imperial City with only 1,000 soldiers. Tiber Septim used an entire army to take it, Not as well known, but Tiber himself lost the Imperial City during the Tiber Wars. Losing the Imperial City isn't something just related to Titus II.

Edit: Wow, Titus Mede didn't even have a thousand men. Titus Mede “took [the Imperial City] with under a thousand men.” He also “routed Eddar Olin's northward thrust barely twice that.” p.109 - Infernal City

I think Titus Mede may have given ol' Tiber a run for his money on the battlefield.

Little interesting fact surrounding him. Titus Mede’s personal sigil is a black wolf’s head. A brand of it is worn by those in his innermost circle.

If I remember right, they had the wolf's head as a tattoo somewhere concealed under their clothing.

 

[Raijin]

Aye, Titus Mede was quite skilled to be able to capture the Imperial City with only 1,000 soldiers. Tiber Septim used an entire army to take it, Not as well known, but Tiber himself lost the Imperial City during the Tiber Wars. Losing the Imperial City isn't something just related to Titus II.

Edit: Wow, Titus Mede didn't even have a thousand men. Titus Mede “took [the Imperial City] with under a thousand men.” He also “routed Eddar Olin's northward thrust barely twice that.” p.109 - Infernal City

I think Titus Mede may have given ol' Tiber a run for his money on the battlefield.

Little interesting fact surrounding him. Titus Mede’s personal sigil is a black wolf’s head. A brand of it is worn by those in his innermost circle.

If I remember right, they had the wolf's head as a tattoo somewhere concealed under their clothing.

Big deal. Ysgramor manage to take an entire country with just 500 people, which also includes Solstheim. Skyrim is Nord land all thanks to Ysgramor and his 500 companions.

I think Ysgramor may given ol' Titus Mede a run for his money on the battlefield

 

[DrunkenMage]

Big deal. Ysgramor manage to take an entire country with just 500 people, which also includes Solstheim. Skyrim is Nord land all thanks to Ysgramor and his 500 companions.

I think Ysgramor may given ol' Titus Mede a run for his money on the battlefield

Besides the detail of the Nords having the greatest enchantments of their time, which were better than what the elves had. It actually wasn't until the 13th "King" of Ysgramor's Dynasty in the First Era that Skyrim was completely conquered and the elves cast out/sent underground.

Skyrim itself finally became a Nord Kingdom long after Ysgramor and the original 500 Companions had died. In fact the 13th ruler of the Ysgramor Dynasty is considered the First High King of Skyrim.

In any event...Ysgramor cried tears of ebony and ate soup with a fork. Little hard to top a man with more myth about him than Talos.