Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Then what would be the point of tearing apart the Empire, they're already united.

To show that maybe some people are not going to take "foreigners" taking control of their province, maybe?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Then what would be the point of tearing apart the Empire, they're already united.

To show that maybe some people are not going to take "foreigners" taking control of their province, maybe?

Skyrim joined the Empire willingly, over an Era ago. So what foreigners are taking control of their province? The Elder Council?

Skyrim is represented in the Elder Council, their head of state, unlike every other province in the Empire is not the Emperor, but the High King. Also the White-Gold Concordat wasn't forced on the Nords, it was accepted by High King Istlod. The King that Ulfric calls a true Nord or something like that.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Then what would be the point of tearing apart the Empire, they're already united.

To show that maybe some people are not going to take "foreigners" taking control of their province, maybe?

Skyrim joined the Empire willingly, over an Era ago. So what foreigners are taking control of their province? The Elder Council?

Skyrim is represented in the Elder Council, their head of state, unlike every other province in the Empire is not the Emperor, but the High King. Also the White-Gold Concordat wasn't forced on the Nords, it was accepted by High King Istlod. The King that Ulfric calls a true Nord or something like that.

And none of the Jarls were asked for their input. The High King forced the WGC on Skyrim when he did not ask his Jarls if they even wanted it.

But let's just agree to disagree, as we will probably be at this until Alduin eats the world.

 

[DrunkenMage]

To show that maybe some people are not going to take "foreigners" taking control of their province, maybe?

Skyrim joined the Empire willingly, over an Era ago. So what foreigners are taking control of their province? The Elder Council?

Skyrim is represented in the Elder Council, their head of state, unlike every other province in the Empire is not the Emperor, but the High King. Also the White-Gold Concordat wasn't forced on the Nords, it was accepted by High King Istlod. The King that Ulfric calls a true Nord or something like that.

And none of the Jarls were asked for their input. The High King forced the WGC on Skyrim when he did not ask his Jarls if they even wanted it.

But let's just agree to disagree, as we will probably be at this until Alduin eats the world.

You think Ulfric is going to ask his Jarls for their input on what he should do?

"We will do whatever I decide is in the best interests of Skyrim. Are we clear?" - Ulfric

"Yes, my lord." - Vignar/Galmar

"Heh. Ulfric's put me in charge of keeping an eye on the new Jarls. You know, make sure they're generally following orders." - Galmar

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Skyrim joined the Empire willingly, over an Era ago. So what foreigners are taking control of their province? The Elder Council?

Skyrim is represented in the Elder Council, their head of state, unlike every other province in the Empire is not the Emperor, but the High King. Also the White-Gold Concordat wasn't forced on the Nords, it was accepted by High King Istlod. The King that Ulfric calls a true Nord or something like that.

And none of the Jarls were asked for their input. The High King forced the WGC on Skyrim when he did not ask his Jarls if they even wanted it.

But let's just agree to disagree, as we will probably be at this until Alduin eats the world.

You think Ulfric is going to ask his Jarls for their input on what he should do?

"We will do whatever I decide is in the best interests of Skyrim. Are we clear?" - Ulfric

"Yes, my lord." - Vignar/Galmar

"Heh. Ulfric's put me in charge of keeping an eye on the new Jarls. You know, make sure they're generally following orders." - Galmar

again, let's agree to disagree.

 

[DrunkenMage]

And none of the Jarls were asked for their input. The High King forced the WGC on Skyrim when he did not ask his Jarls if they even wanted it.

But let's just agree to disagree, as we will probably be at this until Alduin eats the world.

You think Ulfric is going to ask his Jarls for their input on what he should do?

"We will do whatever I decide is in the best interests of Skyrim. Are we clear?" - Ulfric

"Yes, my lord." - Vignar/Galmar

"Heh. Ulfric's put me in charge of keeping an eye on the new Jarls. You know, make sure they're generally following orders." - Galmar

again, let's agree to disagree.

Why? Cause I'm winning.

But alright, agree to disagree then.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

You think Ulfric is going to ask his Jarls for their input on what he should do?

"We will do whatever I decide is in the best interests of Skyrim. Are we clear?" - Ulfric

"Yes, my lord." - Vignar/Galmar

"Heh. Ulfric's put me in charge of keeping an eye on the new Jarls. You know, make sure they're generally following orders." - Galmar

again, let's agree to disagree.

Why? Cause I'm winning.

But alright, agree to disagree then.

It was not really about you winning or not, just got bored.

glad we can get things back to normal.

 

[DrunkenMage]

again, let's agree to disagree.

Why? Cause I'm winning.

But alright, agree to disagree then.

It was not really about you winning or not, just got bored.

glad we can get things back to normal.

You're new to the thread? Would it be scary if I told you, that was normal. It can get far far worse, you're lucky the Thalmor supporter isn't posting.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

You're new to the thread? Would it be scary if I told you, that was normal. It can get far far worse, you're lucky the Thalmor supporter isn't posting.

Meh. The only faction which could top that might be the Forsworn.

 

[DrunkenMage]

You're new to the thread? Would it be scary if I told you, that was normal. It can get far far worse, you're lucky the Thalmor supporter isn't posting.

Meh. The only faction which could top that might be the Forsworn.

Forsworn aren't so bad. They're fighting for many things that the Stormcloak supporters are so called fighting for.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Forsworn aren't so bad. They're fighting for many things that the Stormcloak supporters are so called fighting for.

I guess I would like them a lot more if they wouldn't have these Hagraven among them. Those chicks are damn crazy.
Finding dead Nord citizen near their dungeons isn't putting them in a good light either. On the other hand, I'd probably react similary if those folks intended to capture me and throw me into their goddamned mine for the rest of my life, or worse. I wonder if they'd handle them over to the Thalmor, or are they just after Talos worshippers? Wouldn't nature beliefs and strange dark stuff be considered heresy as well?

 

[Opinionated Asmodeus]

I'm starting to like the Stormcloaks less and less. My new Redguard character, whom I made to look like Vaas from ubisofts FC3, sans the scars cause they weren't available, is gonna be pro Empire. My Nord girl just might join the empire too.

And Ulfric sounds like a complete dictator.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

when it comes down to it, all the lore in the world is no match to a good RP. All the lore could say Ulfric is daedric prince in disguise and if i had an RP that fit more with the Stormcloaks than the Empire, I am siding with the Stormcloaks.

/discussion

Whatever helps you sleep at night. Most Stormcloaks in this thread deny lore, hell one even claimed Imperial supporters were hiding lore.

There is actually supportive lore benefiting the Stormcloaks:

The "murder" of Torygg? That was legal duel. The Empire only considers it a murder because if it was recognized by tradition, it would have meant Skryim was going to break free of the Empire, costing the Empire thousands of resources. The fact that he [Torygg] was willing to listen to Ulfric talk more of independence means he at least was considering it, which should have been a red flag from the start.

The WGC is not just a calm before the storm. It was a legal agreement that allowed the Thalmor to opress the Empire's citizens and the Empire, even the Emperor himself, has no legal authority to tell them to stop, because they fear the Thalmor too much to see the truth.

Imperial supporters are just as blind as the Stormcloak ones. Lore is really just "pick and choose what sounds good to you" in my opinion (Reason I try to avoid the Civil War in the first place).

I was always confused by this "The "murder" of Torygg? That was legal duel". A legal duel? Where can I find a better account of what happened at the palace.

My impression from the game is that Ulfich came in and challenged Torygg and then Thum'ed him to death. I thought a duel was when you both used equal weapons. Torygg didn't have the voice so why was it okay for Ulfich to use the one he had? Even the Greybeards didn't approve of that.

To me, if Ulfich had challenged Torygg to a hand to hand combat, maybe then it would have been a duel. Using a cannon against a cap gun is still murder to me.

Not a criticism of your opinion, I was just wondering since I'm not as lore savvy as many on these forums.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

This is a very heated debate. So I'll just say neither and choose my own self preservation.

I will agree with you. The lore only works in someone's favor if they see it working in their favor. People supporting Skyrim's independence will not call Ulfric a traitor because some dumb law says it is. Otherwise, you have to call Torygg a traitor, his court traitors, and the entire guardforce traitors, because they all contributed in some way to the death of Torygg.

Three people were involved. Ulfric, Torygg and Rogvir. Ulfric issued the challnge, Torygg accepted it because his honor was being questioned. Ulfric killed Torygg, fled from Solitude and a member of the Solitude guard allowed Ulfric to escape. Rogvir was later executed for accessory to High Treason.

I always imagine Ulfric running like a bat out of hell from Solitude He's running, looks behind him and saw all of the Guards after him and was like "Oh pl***" bolting for the gate. You could totally see it, coming out of the inn and you see Ulfric running past, then a minute later like fifty guards.

Why was he running if it was a legal action based on time honored Nord beliefs? Did he know he'd done something wrong? Was using the Voice against someone that had no defense wrong? I realize the guards are mostly Imperials, but, wouldn't they have, at least taken in to account Nord rules?

 

[Daelon DuLac]

actually, I was making a point. Stating imperial law just cost you a few readers. You will never convince people that despise the Empire by citing imperial law. That automatically means you want them to realize that the Empire is the only way to go because Ulfric broke the law of the people they hate.

I wasn't trying to convince people by citing Imperial law.

Cost me a few readers? I have been in this thread for a long time. I respond to the post given to me, I do not say the only way to go is Empire because of Imperial law.

I generally use racial segregation, slavery, xenophobia and the banning of another religion, as ways to convince. Those who are against the Empire go on and on about the banning of Talos most times, but overlook the fact the Nords themselves are oppressing another religion. Cry victim, when you're guilty of the same.

Perhaps you should read majority of my arguments. If you're going off one section in one post from over 1500 posts of mine regarding the subject. Be like me taking apart one tiny part of your post and using that as to why you will never convince people, or ever have a valid argument.

Edit: I'll provide an example.

Because they had to let it happen because of NORDIC LAW

I could start by saying, there is no in game information regarding Nordic law. Nordic tradition doesn't mean law itself. It is tradition for many young Nords to kill an Ice Wraith as proving honor. By that logic, all Nords must kill an Ice wraith or they should be arrested. Stating false information just cost you a few readers. You will never convince people that despise the Stormcloaks by citing false information.

See? Two way street on that one.

Quoting Imperial Law cost you a few readers? Really? You'd think backing up an argument with facts would add readers. I'm confused.

 

[Pronged Pickle]

I'm starting to like the Stormcloaks less and less. My new Redguard character, whom I made to look like Vaas from ubisofts FC3, sans the scars cause they weren't available, is gonna be pro Empire. My Nord girl just might join the empire too.

And Ulfric sounds like a complete dictator.

If you haven't already, you yourself should play both questlines to get your own opinion on each side. Mage here seems to have read every book in Skyrim, and more, regarding the topic, so you could just ask him.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Why was he running if it was a legal action based on time honored Nord beliefs? Did he know he'd done something wrong? Was using the Voice against someone that had no defense wrong? I realize the guards are mostly Imperials, but, wouldn't they have, at least taken in to account Nord rules?

Ulfric knew it was illegal in the eyes of the Empire, he was an ex Legionnaire and would be well versed in Imperial law, having sworn an oath to the Emperor and every citizen of the Empire. He knew what he was doing when he went into the Blue Palace, and why the Empire was going to execute him. Which is why I cited Imperial Law.

The guards in Solitude were Nords, the Imperials weren't involved at the time. The Legion stepped in to restore order when the Civil War broke out and Holds began picking sides.

Though also many Nords consider the duel dishonorable not simply because of Imperial law, but because of the conflicting issues of the duel, such as the thu'um and Torygg's age.

Quoting Imperial Law cost you a few readers? Really? You'd think backing up an argument with facts would add readers. I'm confused.

Some people will try for anything, majority of Stormcloak supporters in this thread are always willing to try back up their argument no matter how low or far off they need to be. In this case, taking something completely out of context and instead of arguing why and what was it was used for, merely argue about it being used for something it wasn't.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

Why was he running if it was a legal action based on time honored Nord beliefs? Did he know he'd done something wrong? Was using the Voice against someone that had no defense wrong? I realize the guards are mostly Imperials, but, wouldn't they have, at least taken in to account Nord rules?

Ulfric knew it was illegal in the eyes of the Empire, he was an ex Legionnaire and would be well versed in Imperial law, having sworn an oath to the Emperor and every citizen of the Empire. He knew what he was doing when he went into the Blue Palace, and why the Empire was going to execute him. Which is why I cited Imperial Law.

The guards in Solitude were Nords, the Imperials weren't involved at the time. The Legion stepped in to restore order when the Civil War broke out and Holds began picking sides.

Though also many Nords consider the duel dishonorable not simply because of Imperial law, but because of the conflicting issues of the duel, such as the thu'um and Torygg's age.

Quoting Imperial Law cost you a few readers? Really? You'd think backing up an argument with facts would add readers. I'm confused.

Some people will try for anything, majority of Stormcloak supporters in this thread are always willing to try back up their argument no matter how low or far off they need to be. In this case, taking something completely out of context and instead of arguing why and what was it was used for, merely argue about it being used for something it wasn't.

Y'all know me. I don't really have a side. I usually go Imperial, but, as with this time I'm going Stormcloak as it fits the RP for my character. I just like to check in here to learn something every once in a while. I don't have the cajones to actually debate anybody.

 

[JediJ12]

I prefer the Imperials over the Stormcloaks.but I've done both sides.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

I prefer the Imperials over the Stormcloaks.but I've done both sides.

I agree in principal. I enjoy doing the imperial side more from a play perspective, but the Jarls that end up taking seats sometimes get on my nerves (although I'm in luv w/Maven!) and the whiny ex Jarls all hanging on in Windhelm are just annoying when I've got something to do there. As I said, it's got a lot to do with RP for me.