DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Whatever helps you sleep at night. Most Stormcloaks in this thread deny lore, hell one even claimed Imperial supporters were hiding lore.
Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?
- Thread starter EvilCrazyCows
- Start date
Whatever helps you sleep at night. Most Stormcloaks in this thread deny lore, hell one even claimed Imperial supporters were hiding lore.
J
Jeremius
Guest
There is actually supportive lore benefiting the Stormcloaks:
The "murder" of Torygg? That was legal duel. The Empire only considers it a murder because if it was recognized by tradition, it would have meant Skryim was going to break free of the Empire, costing the Empire thousands of resources. The fact that he [Torygg] was willing to listen to Ulfric talk more of independence means he at least was considering it, which should have been a red flag from the start.
The WGC is not just a calm before the storm. It was a legal agreement that allowed the Thalmor to opress the Empire's citizens and the Empire, even the Emperor himself, has no legal authority to tell them to stop, because they fear the Thalmor too much to see the truth.
Imperial supporters are just as blind as the Stormcloak ones. Lore is really just "pick and choose what sounds good to you" in my opinion (Reason I try to avoid the Civil War in the first place).
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Torygg's duel wasn't legal in the eyes of the Empire. Ulfric being an ex Legionnaire, being a Jarl, he knew what would happen by killing the High King. The man wasn't surprised by the Imperial Legion stepping in to restore order. Ulfric killed Torygg, then fled. He ran. Ulfric would have been executed for the exact same thing during the Septim dynasty.
Any act against (whether directly or indirectly, or any nonaction which results in circumstances, directly or indirectly, against) a allegiated sovereign or by a vassal to a liege, resulting (or what a reasonable person would assume would result) in physical, emotional, mental, or magical harm or injury in said sovereign or liege. The punishment for this crime will be death. - Legal Basics.
Torygg was vassal to the Emperor.
You have this odd notion that there should be alarm bells ringing, red flags and all this other things because Torygg was willing to hear more and interested in going independent, Torygg was a devout follower of Talos also. Skyrim could of left the Empire peacefully, had Skyrim rejected the White-Gold Concordat as a whole, leaving the Empire. It could of happened without anyone dying, the Empire doesn't want a war in Skyrim. The Empire is doing their duty, many citizens in Skyrim wish to remain part of the Empire. Though had Skyrim left peacefully, they would probably have a treaty, trade wouldn't be interrupted and importantly to allow the Empire to pass freely from High Rock to Cyrodiil. The problem with all that, Ulfric would not be King.
No. Now you're just denying in game information that both the Empire and Thalmor say.
Surely you jest? None could be as blind as you. Lore in your opinion is just pick and choose what sounds good? That comment, is quite interesting. So people can just pick and choose what sounds good.
Well in that case I pick that the Imperials who defend the Tower that has the power to stop Mundas dissolving into Oblivion are more important.
The Stormcloaks who apparently cause the deactivation of the Snow Tower 'When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding'. Then I pick that Ulfric is the prophet of doom to all Nirn and should be killed, but then we're getting into a completely new pile of plops that is confusing as it is strange.
J
Jeremius
Guest
1) IT is illegal to the Empire because that means that the Empire has to recognize Ulfric as a candidtate/true leader of Skyrim. They would likely lose Skyrim if they do that. Ulfric challenged Torygg in Torygg's court, which is an ancient tradition of succession. Look up Dev comments on the dialogue Stentor says. Torygg would NEVER leave, because he was in the Empire's pocket, taking gold from them to feed his ego. He had to go for Skyrim to be independent. He also has Half of Skyrim because of that, and I wonder why? It surely is not because of his experience running anything. Likely it is because those Jarls recognized the tradition the duel was challenged under.
2) It is a "calm before the Storm" that gives the Thalmor the Empire's authority to arrest Talos worshipers in Imperial Territory because the Emperor agreed to it. Surely you can see that? many "Imperial supporters" in game that mention the WGC mention it as the power of the Thalmor, not that the Empire has the right to do anything about it without risk of losing everything.
3) What I meant by "Pick and Choose" is that people will use whatever lore supports their RP/choice, and ignore the rest of it.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
1) I'm well aware of the tradition surrounding the duel, but you have the Nords split between it. Some considering it unfair, dishonorable and simply murder. The Empire doesn't have to recognize anything about Ulfric. Ulfric killed Torygg, fled to Windhelm and declared war on the Western Holds. The Imperial Legion stepped in when the Jarls began picking sides. It is a Civil War. It is illegal by Imperial law, something I had just proved by a lore source about Imperial law and justice.
2) The White-Gold Concordat outlawed Talos worship by Imperial law, never actually enforced until Ulfric forced the matter. Thalmor's power over the Empire is debatable, especially since one of the Thalmor told me that only by authority of the Imperial Legion would he do what I asked.
3) People ignoring lore for their RP can do whatever they like, they can RP that they're a Raptor when playing as an Argonian. But many people don't simply deny lore because of their choice in picking a side. I don't deny lore to support my choice in being Pro Empire, nor do many other Pro Empire supporters, some might others who don't know the lore are learning, part of debating.
Stormcloak supporters are the only major ones in this thread who actually deny things, it is always Imperial propaganda or false (Even though in game information) Or my personal favorite one, the one where Stormcloaks without any argument go on about how they are right, you are wrong, they are using facts, you aren't using any facts, you're making lore up etc.
Your argument is more deny this, RP that, or reply with a pointless and unrelated post.
2) The White-Gold Concordat outlawed Talos worship by Imperial law, never actually enforced until Ulfric forced the matter. Thalmor's power over the Empire is debatable, especially since one of the Thalmor told me that only by authority of the Imperial Legion would he do what I asked.
3) People ignoring lore for their RP can do whatever they like, they can RP that they're a Raptor when playing as an Argonian. But many people don't simply deny lore because of their choice in picking a side. I don't deny lore to support my choice in being Pro Empire, nor do many other Pro Empire supporters, some might others who don't know the lore are learning, part of debating.
Stormcloak supporters are the only major ones in this thread who actually deny things, it is always Imperial propaganda or false (Even though in game information) Or my personal favorite one, the one where Stormcloaks without any argument go on about how they are right, you are wrong, they are using facts, you aren't using any facts, you're making lore up etc.
Your argument is more deny this, RP that, or reply with a pointless and unrelated post.
Jurgarik Greycloak
Techno master of Tamriel.
IS the Solitude Court guilty of Treason too? Because they had to let it happen because of NORDIC LAW which details how to solve those issues?
Sometimes lore is only as good as the person seeing it.
Nephor The Shadow Stalker
Strike swiftly and silently.
This is a very heated debate. So I'll just say neither and choose my own self preservation.
Jurgarik Greycloak
Techno master of Tamriel.
I will agree with you. The lore only works in someone's favor if they see it working in their favor. People supporting Skyrim's independence will not call Ulfric a traitor because some dumb law says it is. Otherwise, you have to call Torygg a traitor, his court traitors, and the entire guardforce traitors, because they all contributed in some way to the death of Torygg.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
No. It is an ancient Nordic tradition, challenging the High King or Jarl for their title. Something that probably hasn't been used since the First Empire of the Nords, which Alvor mentions when the Jarls start killing each other we're back to the bad old days when the Holds would fight each other.
Had Torygg refused by Nordic tradition he could be voted as no confidence and lose his throne in theory. Torygg accepted the challenge because it was questioning his honor, Nords when it comes to their personal honor can act without thinking.
Torygg's Court didn't allow it to happen, it happened very quickly. Ulfric issued the challenge, Torygg jumped up and accepted it. Ulfric shouted Torygg and killed him either by his sword or shouted him apart depending on which story to believe. Torygg had some martial ability, he wasn't defenseless, but that didn't matter because Ulfric used the Thu'um.
Ulfric didn't announce he was going to kill the High King until the last minute. Everyone believed he was actually going to ask Torygg to declare independence, which Torygg was in favor of.
It was viewed by many Nords as murder and dishonorable. When it comes to a duel between Nords, one generally thinks of skill by steel.
By Imperial law it was illegal, Ulfric knew it was, he was once a Legionnaire so he would have great knowledge of the law. He fled from Solitude, Ulfric killed Torygg to have the war. Torygg was merely used as a message to the other Jarls.
"Ulfric founded the Stormcloaks years ago, as a sort of private army to advance his ambitions. He's always used the ban on the worship of Talos to stir people up against the Empire. He never succeeded in getting much support, so a few months ago he murdered the High King! That got the Empire's attention." - Hadvar
"Walked right into his palace in Solitude and killed him. Shouted him to death, if you believe the stories. That's what started this whole war. The Empire couldn't ignore that. Once the jarls start killing each other, we're back to the bad old days." - Alvor
"Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls." - Ulfric
Edit: The problem with Torygg was his honor, he took the challenge. It doesn't make it right, nor does it absolve Ulfric.
Jurgarik Greycloak
Techno master of Tamriel.
And citing Imperial Law because it is "proper lore" is going to bite you in the butt. IF you say Ulfric is a traitor because of the duel then Torygg is a traitor as well because his actions led to the death of the Sovereign of Skyrim (Himself). Those in his Court had the right to stop him as well, so they are also traitors because of their inaction.
Imperial law will not garner any favors from people who hate the Empire, lore or not.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Three people were involved. Ulfric, Torygg and Rogvir. Ulfric issued the challnge, Torygg accepted it because his honor was being questioned. Ulfric killed Torygg, fled from Solitude and a member of the Solitude guard allowed Ulfric to escape. Rogvir was later executed for accessory to High Treason.
I always imagine Ulfric running like a bat out of hell from Solitude He's running, looks behind him and saw all of the Guards after him and was like "Oh plops" bolting for the gate. You could totally see it, coming out of the inn and you see Ulfric running past, then a minute later like fifty guards.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
All lore is proper lore. Citing Imperial law isn't biting in the butt, it has been used as an argument against the Empire that they're executing Ulfric unfairly, which by Imperial law since the time of the Septim Emperors has been the same in regards to High Treason.
Ulfric is a traitor for killing his King.
Torygg is an idiot because he let personal honor get in the way.
Torygg's Court didn't have a chance to advise against it. It happened and was over in probably a few seconds. Ulfric issued the challenge, Torygg jumped up accepting, second later Thu'um and stab or blasted apart. Ulfric flees from Solitude.
Though perhaps you can explain why you believe Torygg's Court are Traitors. Torygg is the High King, his Court are his advisors. They have no authority over him, he is their King, they his subjects.
Jurgarik Greycloak
Techno master of Tamriel.
actually, I was making a point. Stating imperial law just cost you a few readers. You will never convince people that despise the Empire by citing imperial law. That automatically means you want them to realize that the Empire is the only way to go because Ulfric broke the law of the people they hate.
you are not wrong, just going about arguing the wrong way.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I wasn't trying to convince people by citing Imperial law.
Cost me a few readers? I have been in this thread for a long time. I respond to the post given to me, I do not say the only way to go is Empire because of Imperial law.
I generally use racial segregation, slavery, xenophobia and the banning of another religion, as ways to convince. Those who are against the Empire go on and on about the banning of Talos most times, but overlook the fact the Nords themselves are oppressing another religion. Cry victim, when you're guilty of the same.
Perhaps you should read majority of my arguments. If you're going off one section in one post from over 1500 posts of mine regarding the subject. Be like me taking apart one tiny part of your post and using that as to why you will never convince people, or ever have a valid argument.
Edit: I'll provide an example.
I could start by saying, there is no in game information regarding Nordic law. Nordic tradition doesn't mean law itself. It is tradition for many young Nords to kill an Ice Wraith as proving honor. By that logic, all Nords must kill an Ice wraith or they should be arrested. Stating false information just cost you a few readers. You will never convince people that despise the Stormcloaks by citing false information.
See? Two way street on that one.
Jurgarik Greycloak
Techno master of Tamriel.
As far as I know, the Forsworn brought it on themselves for the Markarth incident. Ulfric challenged Torygg because he felt that Torygg was in the way of freeing Skyrim. Fact is that Torygg was in the way, in Ulfric's mind, of what he wanted. He advocated splitting from the Empire at the Moot. That proves that his goal was to free Skyrim, not power for power's sake, as many Imperial Supporters believe. The stormcloaks support Ulfric because of that, not tradition or whatever. Lore/Law means nothing when it comes to this.
Neutralists: "Yeah, Imperial Law states that, but the fact that half of Skyrim believes the Empire is wrong is why there is a Civil War in the first place."
Stormcloaks: "The Empire calls Ulfric a Traitor for fighting for his people? Why don't they look in the mirror and say that, considering they betrayed the people of the Empire to the Thalmor for a few years of peace."
See what I did there. used arguments that actually benefit from the same lore you use to counter you.
Still, you are not getting to the heart of the Civil War debate. That is whether or not Skyrim should be independent of the Empire. I can never read posts that do not prove that Skyrim truly needs the Empire to survive against the Thalmor.
The map of Tamriel shows that Skyrim is in the best place possible for defense. Logically speaking, it makes little sense for the Dominion to even try to get to skyrim at all.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
The people of the Reach were being oppressed by Nords long before the Markarth Incident.
Ulfric voiced his thoughts during the moot, just shy of treason. Torygg greatly respected Ulfric for it, and was willing to hear more. Empire supporters claim Ulfric's goal was power due to the fact the High King was impressed and was willing to listen.
You're countering me citing Imperial law on why the Legion was trying to kill Ulfric Stormcloak. That Ulfric knew what he was doing when killing Torygg, being an ex Legionnaire himself he would be well aware that the Empire would intervene? Well gee, I wouldn't have thought that the Stormcloak side of Skyrim didn't agree with Imperial authority. When you take something out of context as to why I was posting Imperial law, then yeah you can make an argument about it.
Well actually, about the Great War. Skyrim agreed to the White-Gold Concordat for the last twenty six years, without any issues from the Thalmor. Until Ulfric agitated about it, he wasn't getting support over the Talos ban and many Nords worshiped in secret, not paying attention to the Treaty.
Empire betraying the people to the Thalmor? Well I could just say the Stormcloaks are betraying people due to being helped by the Thalmor. Especially since the Thalmor admit to being in Helgen to try stop Ulfric's execution, and also the part where they mention providing indirect aid to the Stormcloaks.
Ulfric: "The Empire is weak, obsolete. Look at how far we've come and with so little. When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion."
Rikke: "You're a damn fool."
Galmar: "When we are done with that, we will take our army to the Dominion, and show those pointy-eared bastards not every man is fit to be their slave."
You were saying something about defending? Perhaps I'm missing something where it says Stormcloaks are defending Skyrim. Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't attacking the opposite of defending?
Edit:
Looking at a map of Tamriel, how do you suppose the Stormcloaks will get to the Aldmeri Dominion? Hammerfell and High Rock are the last provinces to aid Skyrim, Hammerfell especially. They going to sail there? Since Cyrodiil is hardly going to be friendly with the Stormcloaks. Now I can actually see Ulfric being stupid enough to do something like that, he wants songs and stories about him.
Ulfric: "Come, Galmar. Where's your sense of the dramatic moment?"
Galmar: "By the gods! If it's a good ending to some damn story you're after..."
"But you're willing to sacrifice thousands for your own selfish ambitions." - General Tullius.
Jurgarik Greycloak
Techno master of Tamriel.
The people of the Reach were being oppressed by Nords long before the Markarth Incident.
Ulfric voiced his thoughts during the moot, just shy of treason. Torygg greatly respected Ulfric for it, and was willing to hear more. Empire supporters claim Ulfric's goal was power due to the fact the High King was impressed and was willing to listen.
You're countering me citing Imperial law on why the Legion was trying to kill Ulfric Stormcloak. That Ulfric knew what he was doing when killing Torygg, being an ex Legionnaire himself he would be well aware that the Empire would intervene? Well gee, I wouldn't have thought that the Stormcloak side of Skyrim didn't agree with Imperial authority. When you take something out of context as to why I was posting Imperial law, then yeah you can make an argument about it.
Well actually, about the Great War. Skyrim agreed to the White-Gold Concordat for the last twenty six years, without any issues from the Thalmor. Until Ulfric agitated about it, he wasn't getting support over the Talos ban and many Nords worshiped in secret, not paying attention to the Treaty.
Empire betraying the people to the Thalmor? Well I could just say the Stormcloaks are betraying people due to being helped by the Thalmor. Especially since the Thalmor admit to being in Helgen to try stop Ulfric's execution, and also the part where they mention providing indirect aid to the Stormcloaks.
Ulfric: "The Empire is weak, obsolete. Look at how far we've come and with so little. When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion."
Rikke: "You're a damn fool."
Galmar: "When we are done with that, we will take our army to the Dominion, and show those pointy-eared bastards not every man is fit to be their slave."
You were saying something about defending? Perhaps I'm missing something where it says Stormcloaks are defending Skyrim. Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't attacking the opposite of defending?
Again, you missed the point. You need to know your audience before you try to convince them. Like me: I will not be convinced to side with the Empire by Lore stating bad things about Ulfrc. You need to cite lore that proves that the Empire is the best choice for skyrim for me to side with them 100% of my plays.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
"Because the Dominion is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Because many Nords are part of the Imperial army even now. Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people. Because even if we can't openly worship him, Talos the god was once Tiber Septim the man, and this is his Empire." - Sybille Stentor
"Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes." - Tullius
"The ordinary citizen will be happy to get back to life as normal, to have their families return home. And they should enjoy it while they can... I suspect all of Tamriel will again be called to arms in the not too distant future." - Rikke
"Those milk drinkers? Might as well be elves. Think they're better than us." - Galmar's opinion about High Rock.
"But that stronghold they've got in the southeast? Narzulbur? It's an affront to my people." - Windhelm Guard, opinion about Orc Strongholds.
"Did you know it was his decree that forbade the Argonians from living inside the city walls? I hope in his next life, he's reborn as an Argonian forced to live in a slum because of some bigoted Nord dictator. I'm joking, of course, but I'm a lot happier seeing the Empire running things in Windhelm." - Scouts-Many-Marshes about Ulfric after Imperial Victory
Jurgarik Greycloak
Techno master of Tamriel.
That is still not proving that Skyrim needs the Empire. Sorry, still not convinced.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Yeah... food and resources? Pff, who needs those. Who cares that the farms in Skyrim struggle by with the exception of Rorikstead. At least one farm will supply some of the population, those that die off were too weak anyway.
Though it actually doesn't matter, I don't intend to convince you. Chances are Hammerfell would probably invade and take over most of Skyrim, be friendly lore wise and I can see it happening due to all the things Skyrim did to them in the past. Skyrim hasn't been this weakened since the First Era. Some will want to take advantage of it, no doubt. Also it gives Bethesda a way to not have Imperial or Stormcloak victory since it depends on the PC's choice, to be lore friendly and not pick favorites, neither the Stormcloaks or the Empire will win in Skyrim anyway. They will both lose most likely.
