Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

That is still not proving that Skyrim needs the Empire. Sorry, still not convinced.

Yeah... food and resources? Pff, who needs those. Who cares that the farms in Skyrim struggle by with the exception of Rorikstead. At least one farm will supply some of the population, those that die off were too weak anyway.

Though it actually doesn't matter, I don't intend to convince you. Chances are Hammerfell would probably invade and take over most of Skyrim, be friendly lore wise and I can see it happening due to all the things Skyrim did to them in the past. Skyrim hasn't been this weakened since the First Era. Some will want to take advantage of it, no doubt. Also it gives Bethesda a way to not have Imperial or Stormcloak victory since it depends on the PC's choice, to be lore friendly and not pick favorites, neither the Stormcloaks or the Empire will win in Skyrim anyway. They will both lose most likely.

How do you know? why do you think all this without the lore to back up any of it?

Just admit that you lost this on, and we can all move on.

 

[DrunkenMage]

That is still not proving that Skyrim needs the Empire. Sorry, still not convinced.

Yeah... food and resources? Pff, who needs those. Who cares that the farms in Skyrim struggle by with the exception of Rorikstead. At least one farm will supply some of the population, those that die off were too weak anyway.

Though it actually doesn't matter, I don't intend to convince you. Chances are Hammerfell would probably invade and take over most of Skyrim, be friendly lore wise and I can see it happening due to all the things Skyrim did to them in the past. Skyrim hasn't been this weakened since the First Era. Some will want to take advantage of it, no doubt. Also it gives Bethesda a way to not have Imperial or Stormcloak victory since it depends on the PC's choice, to be lore friendly and not pick favorites, neither the Stormcloaks or the Empire will win in Skyrim anyway. They will both lose most likely.

How do you know? why do you think all this without the lore to back up any of it?

Just admit that you lost this on, and we can all move on.

The farms struggling is mentioned in Diplomatic Immunity, also a few rich Nobles got their money from farming, indicates a large demand.

I don't know if Hammerfell would invade, it was a speculation given that Skyrim has attacked Hammerfell many times in the past. Skyrim and hammerfell have been at odds since the alliance wars in the Second Era, and also in the Third Era during the reign of Uriel VII the last of the Septim dynasty, Skyrim invaded Hammerfell and stole many miles of land from the Redguards.

Bethesda doesn't get into much when it is player choice. Such as the game Daggerfall I believe, in which they used Warp in the West. That all outcomes happened at the same point in time.

Admit I'm lost on this one? I've yet to actually see you even provide lore, or provide anything in support of the Stormcloaks. Besides quoting me about how Solitude's court are traitors, or how tradition is magically Nordic law, or that I'm not getting to the heart of the Civil war debate. No, I correct myself you stated Ulfric spoke about succession in the Moot.

If you give me something better than "I'm still not convinced" then yeah, I'll have a proper debate with you.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Yeah... food and resources? Pff, who needs those. Who cares that the farms in Skyrim struggle by with the exception of Rorikstead. At least one farm will supply some of the population, those that die off were too weak anyway.

Though it actually doesn't matter, I don't intend to convince you. Chances are Hammerfell would probably invade and take over most of Skyrim, be friendly lore wise and I can see it happening due to all the things Skyrim did to them in the past. Skyrim hasn't been this weakened since the First Era. Some will want to take advantage of it, no doubt. Also it gives Bethesda a way to not have Imperial or Stormcloak victory since it depends on the PC's choice, to be lore friendly and not pick favorites, neither the Stormcloaks or the Empire will win in Skyrim anyway. They will both lose most likely.

How do you know? why do you think all this without the lore to back up any of it?

Just admit that you lost this on, and we can all move on.

The farms struggling is mentioned in Diplomatic Immunity, also a few rich Nobles got their money from farming, indicates a large demand.

I don't know if Hammerfell would invade, it was a speculation given that Skyrim has attacked Hammerfell many times in the past. Skyrim and hammerfell have been at odds since the alliance wars in the Second Era, and also in the Third Era during the reign of Uriel VII the last of the Septim dynasty, Skyrim invaded Hammerfell and stole many miles of land from the Redguards.

Bethesda doesn't get into much when it is player choice. Such as the game Daggerfall I believe, in which they used Warp in the West. That all outcomes happened at the same point in time.

Admit I'm lost on this one? I've yet to actually see you even provide lore, or provide anything in support of the Stormcloaks. Besides quoting me about how Solitude's court are traitors, or how tradition is magically Nordic law, or that I'm not getting to the heart of the Civil war debate. No, I correct myself you stated Ulfric spoke about succession in the Moot.

1) How do you know that Ulfric will not make a trade deal with the Empire? If Ulfric knows this, then why would he not deal with the EEC or somewhere to exchange food for war materials?

2) I will admit that second point.

3) What? I was never trying to convince you, but trying to get you to convince me that the Empire is the right choice. but you stated that you do not want to convince me, so we will have to say this one is over because of too much stubborn on all sides.

 

[DrunkenMage]

1) a) The Stormcloaks refuse to buy from Non-Nords. As noted in Whiterun after Stormcloak Victory. Ulfric killing Tullius after he may have surrendered (He didn't actually surrender just proposed the thought) Would damage any treaty being made, also Ulfric views even talking to the Empire a generous offer, so Ulfric wouldn't ask them first. You're under the idea that Ulfric is a rational man, he's clever but also emotionally ruled, if you go into Season Unending being neutral, he's willing to abandon an entire Hold just so Elenwen is kicked out. Ulfric hates the Empire, has done since his father died while he was in Imperial prison.

b) Ulfric seeks to remove all Imperial influence from Skyrim. The EEC is an imperial influence, with EEC mercenaries having fought in the Civil War and it being an Imperial merchant guild. Skyrim is surrounded by provinces that don't like them. Hammerfell and High Rock, House Redoran (Now the ruling House of Morrowind) was assaulted by the Nords during the Oblivion Crisis. While Solstheim trades with a Nord out of Windhelm (Who gets his supplies from the EEC) that is out of a need to survive, since the Council has deemed Solstheim not important due to the closing of the mine. When the mine reopens they're made important again and are given money, supplies and other things from the Council being an export of Ebony.

c) Stormcloaks are highly unlikely to make weapons and armor for the Imperial Legion. They hate the Empire and the Legion, I find it unlikely they and Ulfric would suddenly back flip on their ideology.

3) I'm not here to convince people, they make up their own minds. I'm not interested in one sided debate where I have to convince someone, I enjoy when being presented with an argument and debating.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

How can either of us be wrong if there was no argument or debate? I stated something that tried to help you in the future, and you stated I was wrong because you were not trying to convince me even though I was only helping for the future when you do have to argue.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Empire steals resources? From who? The provinces trade in the Empire, mostly through the EEC. The Empire is more than one province that makes up the Empire, it wouldn't be an Empire otherwise.

So your logic is that the Empire steals resources from itself, to trade it back to itself.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

The Empire steals resources? From who? The provinces trade in the Empire, mostly through the EEC. The Empire is more than one province that makes up the Empire, it wouldn't be an Empire otherwise.

So your logic is that the Empire steals resources from itself, to trade it back to itself.

yep. that is what I am saying.

that was a joke.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Empire steals resources? From who? The provinces trade in the Empire, mostly through the EEC. The Empire is more than one province that makes up the Empire, it wouldn't be an Empire otherwise.

So your logic is that the Empire steals resources from itself, to trade it back to itself.

yep. that is what I am saying.

Oh, you changed your post. What happened to the capitals and ranting about the Empire is evil and stealing? Decided coming off like a fool wasn't the way to go aye? Least I know who I'm really quoting. Just another Stormcloak who gets mad and uses all capitals in a rant.

For your edited post, I'll play along. You stated something to help me debating? I have been debating in this thread for hundreds of pages, you were wrong not because I wasn't trying to convince you. But about the small facts you did try to pass off. The argument you were 'debating' if you could call it that, was wrong because you were merely either posting a wrong fact or simply trying to say I am not getting to the heart of the debate.

Edit:
Taking one of my posts, completely out of context over one section, is why you were wrong also. Anyone can do that, as I showed. You provided one argument, against my citing something. But in a completely wrong way, you argued as to why using it was wrong in another argument but completely ignored the argument in which I cited it for.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

The Empire steals resources? From who? The provinces trade in the Empire, mostly through the EEC. The Empire is more than one province that makes up the Empire, it wouldn't be an Empire otherwise.

So your logic is that the Empire steals resources from itself, to trade it back to itself.

yep. that is what I am saying.

Oh, you changed your post. What happened to the capitals and ranting about the Empire is evil and stealing? Decided coming off like a fool wasn't the way to go aye? Least I know who I'm really quoting. Just another Stormcloak who gets mad and uses all capitals in a rant.

For your edited post, I'll play along. You stated something to help me debating? I have been debating in this thread for hundreds of pages, you were wrong not because I wasn't trying to convince you. But about the small facts you did try to pass off. The argument you were 'debating' if you could call it that, was wrong because you were merely either posting a wrong fact or simply trying to say I am not getting to the heart of the debate.

What debate? That I said you did not know why both sides were fighting in the Civil War? Surely everyone knows that the Stormcloaks believe they can handle running Skyrim by themselves without foreign money-grubbers (My view of the Elder Council) bossing them around. While the Empire believes it cannot survive without the Empire.

But you seem to not know what the phrase 'having fun' means. So, I will say lore is seen differently and means different things for different people because of that.

 

[DrunkenMage]

What debate? That I said you did not know why both sides were fighting in the Civil War? Surely everyone knows that the Stormcloaks believe they can handle running Skyrim by themselves without foreign money-grubbers (My view of the Elder Council) bossing them around. While the Empire believes it cannot survive without the Empire.

I would of let you had that one, if we were on the second page of the thread. Not the 605th page of this thread with over 12 thousand replies. Saying I'm not getting to the heart of why the Stormcloaks and Empire are fighting, is a little late?

The Empire supporters believe a united Empire is better for everyone, especially when close to another war with the Aldmeri Dominion.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

What debate? That I said you did not know why both sides were fighting in the Civil War? Surely everyone knows that the Stormcloaks believe they can handle running Skyrim by themselves without foreign money-grubbers (My view of the Elder Council) bossing them around. While the Empire believes it cannot survive without the Empire.

I would of let you had that one, if we were on the second page of the thread. Not the 605th page of this thread with over 12 thousand replies. Saying I'm not getting to the heart of why the Stormcloaks and Empire are fighting, is a little late?

The Empire supporters believe a united Empire is better for everyone, especially when close to another war with the Aldmeri Dominion.

and Stormcloak supporters say they will take the fight to the Dominion, but do they say they will do it alone? I distinctly remember a speech by Ulfric that says the Stormcloaks/Nords will lead TAMRIEL to Victory.

 

[DrunkenMage]

What debate? That I said you did not know why both sides were fighting in the Civil War? Surely everyone knows that the Stormcloaks believe they can handle running Skyrim by themselves without foreign money-grubbers (My view of the Elder Council) bossing them around. While the Empire believes it cannot survive without the Empire.

I would of let you had that one, if we were on the second page of the thread. Not the 605th page of this thread with over 12 thousand replies. Saying I'm not getting to the heart of why the Stormcloaks and Empire are fighting, is a little late?

The Empire supporters believe a united Empire is better for everyone, especially when close to another war with the Aldmeri Dominion.

and Stormcloak supporters say they will take the fight to the Dominion, but do they say they will do it alone? I distinctly remember a speech by Ulfric that says the Stormcloaks/Nords will lead TAMRIEL to Victory.

Yeah, the farmers and xenophobic will lead Tamriel to victory. Stormcloaks will lead Tamriel to victory... Every province has a stronger, better trained, better equipped Military with better leaders than Ulfric and Galmar.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

I would of let you had that one, if we were on the second page of the thread. Not the 605th page of this thread with over 12 thousand replies. Saying I'm not getting to the heart of why the Stormcloaks and Empire are fighting, is a little late?

The Empire supporters believe a united Empire is better for everyone, especially when close to another war with the Aldmeri Dominion.

and Stormcloak supporters say they will take the fight to the Dominion, but do they say they will do it alone? I distinctly remember a speech by Ulfric that says the Stormcloaks/Nords will lead TAMRIEL to Victory.

Yeah, the farmers and xenophobic will lead Tamriel to victory. Stormcloaks will lead Tamriel to victory... Every province has a stronger, better trained, better equipped Military with better leaders than Ulfric and Galmar.

We do not know if they literally mean they will be at the head of the charge, or if they will be the first to be ready, or what.

That is the beauty of TES, right? That the lore and the game are deliberately made vague for people to decide on?

 

[DrunkenMage]

and Stormcloak supporters say they will take the fight to the Dominion, but do they say they will do it alone? I distinctly remember a speech by Ulfric that says the Stormcloaks/Nords will lead TAMRIEL to Victory.

Yeah, the farmers and xenophobic will lead Tamriel to victory. Stormcloaks will lead Tamriel to victory... Every province has a stronger, better trained, better equipped Military with better leaders than Ulfric and Galmar.

We do not know if they literally mean they will be at the head of the charge, or if they will be the first to be ready, or what.

That is the beauty of TES, right? That the lore and the game are deliberately made vague for people to decide on?

Wouldn't put it past Ulfric to want all the glory and stories of him leading Tamriel to battle. Probably get killed though, him and all his Stormcloaks. The Aldmeri Dominion is better trained and use magic, Stormcloaks shun magic and have no Battlemages. Empire has legions of Battlemages.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Yeah, the farmers and xenophobic will lead Tamriel to victory. Stormcloaks will lead Tamriel to victory... Every province has a stronger, better trained, better equipped Military with better leaders than Ulfric and Galmar.

We do not know if they literally mean they will be at the head of the charge, or if they will be the first to be ready, or what.

That is the beauty of TES, right? That the lore and the game are deliberately made vague for people to decide on?

Wouldn't put it past Ulfric to want all the glory and stories of him leading Tamriel to battle. Probably get killed though, him and all his Stormcloaks. The Aldmeri Dominion is better trained and use magic, Stormcloaks shun magic and have no Battlemages. Empire has legions of Battlemages.

again, we do not know what will happen. Personally? I think all the human races, and those that support them, will unite and Empire/Stormcloak/whatever will not matter in the slightest.

 

[DrunkenMage]

We do not know if they literally mean they will be at the head of the charge, or if they will be the first to be ready, or what.

That is the beauty of TES, right? That the lore and the game are deliberately made vague for people to decide on?

Wouldn't put it past Ulfric to want all the glory and stories of him leading Tamriel to battle. Probably get killed though, him and all his Stormcloaks. The Aldmeri Dominion is better trained and use magic, Stormcloaks shun magic and have no Battlemages. Empire has legions of Battlemages.

again, we do not know what will happen. Personally? I think all the human races, and those that support them, will unite and Empire/Stormcloak/whatever will not matter in the slightest.

Problem with that is, how long does it take Skyrim to be ready for war. Had the Empire remained in Skyrim the joined resources of three provinces would of made rebuilding Skyrim easier and quicker. The Empire is close to war with the Aldmeri Dominion, they already have their army on the Dominion's border.

Skyrim being ready for war after the war has ended is about as useful as wagon with a broken wheel.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Wouldn't put it past Ulfric to want all the glory and stories of him leading Tamriel to battle. Probably get killed though, him and all his Stormcloaks. The Aldmeri Dominion is better trained and use magic, Stormcloaks shun magic and have no Battlemages. Empire has legions of Battlemages.

again, we do not know what will happen. Personally? I think all the human races, and those that support them, will unite and Empire/Stormcloak/whatever will not matter in the slightest.

Problem with that is, how long does it take Skyrim to be ready for war. Had the Empire remained in Skyrim the joined resources of three provinces would of made rebuilding Skyrim easier and quicker. The Empire is close to war with the Aldmeri Dominion, they already have their army on the Dominion's border.

Skyrim being ready for war after the war has ended is about as useful as wagon with a broken wheel.

even with the Empire, it will take time, time that needs blacksmiths and workers, that take away from the Army. So either way, Skyrim will not be ready for another war anytime soon.

 

[DrunkenMage]

again, we do not know what will happen. Personally? I think all the human races, and those that support them, will unite and Empire/Stormcloak/whatever will not matter in the slightest.

Problem with that is, how long does it take Skyrim to be ready for war. Had the Empire remained in Skyrim the joined resources of three provinces would of made rebuilding Skyrim easier and quicker. The Empire is close to war with the Aldmeri Dominion, they already have their army on the Dominion's border.

Skyrim being ready for war after the war has ended is about as useful as wagon with a broken wheel.

even with the Empire, it will take time, time that needs blacksmiths and workers, that take away from the Army. So either way, Skyrim will not be ready for another war anytime soon.

There are Empire Construction Guilds unrelated to the Imperial Army, Cyrodiil had to rebuild also after the Great War. A few Jarls in Imperial Victory, talk about using the Empire's resources to rebuild and repair cities. The Empire is close to a war, but not right away, will still take a few years probably. But with three united provinces + Orsinium which are still Empire supporting most likely since the Legions aided the Orcs in their most desperate time of need during the Fourth Era. It makes repairs still faster than what the Stormcloak victory would bring.

You are right though, it does need blacksmiths. But Stormcloaks are only for Nord smiths, so rebuilding will take even longer when racial preferences come into play.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Problem with that is, how long does it take Skyrim to be ready for war. Had the Empire remained in Skyrim the joined resources of three provinces would of made rebuilding Skyrim easier and quicker. The Empire is close to war with the Aldmeri Dominion, they already have their army on the Dominion's border.

Skyrim being ready for war after the war has ended is about as useful as wagon with a broken wheel.

even with the Empire, it will take time, time that needs blacksmiths and workers, that take away from the Army. So either way, Skyrim will not be ready for another war anytime soon.

There are Empire Construction Guilds unrelated to the Imperial Army, Cyrodiil had to rebuild also after the Great War. A few Jarls in Imperial Victory, talk about using the Empire's resources to rebuild and repair cities. The Empire is close to a war, but not right away, will still take a few years probably. But with three united provinces + Orsinium which are still Empire supporting most likely since the Legions aided the Orcs in their most desperate time of need during the Fourth Era. It makes repairs still faster than what the Stormcloak victory would bring.

You are right though, it does need blacksmiths. But Stormcloaks are only for Nord smiths, so rebuilding will take even longer when racial preferences come into play.

whatever. I still say the whole mess does not matter when everyone who is against the Dominion will unite against them in the end.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Then what would be the point of tearing apart the Empire, they're already united.