Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jorrvaskr]

She likely would not do those actions had Torygg lived, so technically her actions are the fault of Ulfric for her being in that position in the first place. She may make them on her own, but she could not do so without being Jarl, as it would not help her.

Torygg was no better, he spent his time giving rambling speeches about the Empire and just entertaining Elisif. Besides, she's an idiot who has little interest in properly ruling, just cares about a parade or complaining politics is unfair.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000bc1ba

"I could learn a lot from the people in this room."

She is learning from the people at the Elenwen's party... She's a lost cause.

She's not fit to be the High Queen of Skyrim, at least in Stormcloak Skyrim she is controlled.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c1a39

"As long as Ulfric wishes Elisif to remain Jarl, remain Jarl she will. And the Thanes will continue to follow her orders. As long as those orders came from Ulfric."

 

[Jeremius]

She likely would not do those actions had Torygg lived, so technically her actions are the fault of Ulfric for her being in that position in the first place. She may make them on her own, but she could not do so without being Jarl, as it would not help her.

Torygg was no better, he spent his time giving rambling speeches about the Empire and just entertaining Elisif. Besides, she's an idiot who has little interest in properly ruling, just cares about a parade or complaining politics is unfair.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000bc1ba

"I could learn a lot from the people in this room."

She is learning from the people at the Elenwen's party... She's a lost cause.

She's not fit to be the High Queen of Skyrim, at least in Stormcloak Skyrim she is controlled.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c1a39

"As long as Ulfric wishes Elisif to remain Jarl, remain Jarl she will. And the Thanes will continue to follow her orders. As long as those orders came from Ulfric."

I agree. I would rather have Ulfric than her, while I would not want either.

 

[Jorrvaskr]

I agree. I would rather have Ulfric than her, while I would not want either.

Even if you don't like Ulfric, he has a point.

"I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

 

[DrunkenMage]

This thread is now property of the rebellion, leave imperial liar.

Why so mean

 

[Jeremius]

I agree. I would rather have Ulfric than her, while I would not want either.

Even if you don't like Ulfric, he has a point.

"I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

That is truth. Though the wonder of that Dossier keeps me from full support, the Stormcloaks are the rightful rulers of Skyrim.

 

[Jeremius]

This thread is now property of the rebellion, leave imperial liar.

Why so mean

You make stuff up, then use in-game stuff to back up that mad up stuff.

 

[DrunkenMage]

You make stuff up, then use in-game stuff to back up that mad up stuff.

Pff, Stormcloak propaganda.

 

[Jeremius]

You make stuff up, then use in-game stuff to back up that mad up stuff.

Pff, Stormcloak propaganda.

Imperial blindness. Can't even see the truth in front of you. The Empire's time is done, better to join the righteous side instead of holding on to a relic. A relic that has the power of stripping resources and using provinces for their own vanity over actually listening to those who need them. The Empire was to protect people, yet instead it lets people get kidnapped by the Thalmor and pretends they never existed.

 

[Jorrvaskr]

That is truth. Though the wonder of that Dossier keeps me from full support, the Stormcloaks are the rightful rulers of Skyrim.

Ulfric left the Greybeards to fight for the Empire, he couldn't sit back and do nothing while the Empire he loved, was threatened.

So he fought, fought in a distant land to be captured and tortured for information. Yet he held out, and what information they wanted became useless because he held out until the Imperial City fell, he fought for his Empire, was tortured for his Empire. Then when he was allowed to escape, he finds Cyrodiil has just accepted basically the original terms.

Thousands died, and fought for nothing in the end. The Empire ended with a province less, with the Redguards now feeling betrayed by Cyrodiil. The Reach was taken by natives, so he's asked to take it back, promised free worship for him and his men. He didn't ask for coin, or for songs, just the freedom to worship Talos.

He holds his deal, and then is betrayed when the Empire returns and the Thalmor, who had been watching him, now demand his arrest to set events in motion. The rebels who were arrested, then call it 'The Markarth Incident', and the Stormcloaks are born.

The Dossier isn't saying Ulfric betrayed everyone and cooperated with the Thalmor, it is saying the Thalmor used Ulfric, just like they use the Empire.

Many Nords had wanted the Empire to leave their lands, before the Great War had started, for a long time. In the TES Novels, it is mentioned the Penitus Oculatus would also spy on the Nords. The White-Gold Concordat strengthened tensions, the banning of Talos is considered the final straw.

It isn't Ulfric who is the traitor, Cyrodiil betrayed the provinces. They were warned about the Thalmor, yet they did nothing, they treat the provinces as savages and use their Legions to bully Nobles who oppose them. You see it all in TES III, also. They haven't changed, the provinces are just expendable when Cyrodiil can't exploit them.

 

[Jeremius]

That is truth. Though the wonder of that Dossier keeps me from full support, the Stormcloaks are the rightful rulers of Skyrim.

Ulfric left the Greybeards to fight for the Empire, he couldn't sit back and do nothing while the Empire he loved, was threatened.

So he fought, fought in a distant land to be captured and tortured for information. Yet he held out, and what information they wanted became useless because he held out until the Imperial City fell, he fought for his Empire, was tortured for his Empire. Then when he was allowed to escape, he finds Cyrodiil has just accepted basically the original terms.

Thousands died, and fought for nothing in the end. The Empire ended with a province less, with the Redguards now feeling betrayed by Cyrodiil. The Reach was taken by natives, so he's asked to take it back, promised free worship for him and his men. He didn't ask for coin, or for songs, just the freedom to worship Talos.

He holds his deal, and then is betrayed when the Empire returns and the Thalmor, who had been watching him, now demand his arrest to set events in motion. The rebels who were arrested, then call it 'The Markarth Incident', and the Stormcloaks are born.

The Dossier isn't saying Ulfric betrayed everyone and cooperated with the Thalmor, it is saying the Thalmor used Ulfric, just like they use the Empire.

Many Nords had wanted the Empire to leave their lands, before the Great War had started, for a long time. In the TES Novels, it is mentioned the Penitus Oculatus would also spy on the Nords. The White-Gold Concordat strengthened tensions, the banning of Talos is considered the final straw.

It isn't Ulfric who is the traitor, Cyrodiil betrayed the provinces. They were warned about the Thalmor, yet they did nothing, they treat the provinces as savages and use their Legions to bully Nobles who oppose them. You see it all in TES III, also. They haven't changed, the provinces are just expendable when Cyrodiil can't exploit them.

He betrayed the POLITICIANS, for the PEOPLE. I would follow a man like that, but I am still unsure of the MAN himself. Maybe if he was more for the people, in general.

 

[Jorrvaskr]

He betrayed the POLITICIANS, for the PEOPLE. I would follow a man like that, but I am still unsure of the MAN himself. Maybe if he was more for the people, in general.

You know that when you enter Castle Dour, to face Rikke and Tullius. Talk to Ulfric, he'll be sad about the situation. "War always comes down to this, doesn't it? A single truth-laden moment."

The man isn't doing this because he desires power, or because he's this blood thirsty savage. He hates war, but will admire the skill, dedication and courage it takes to fight in it.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Imperial blindness. Can't even see the truth in front of you. The Empire's time is done, better to join the righteous side instead of holding on to a relic. A relic that has the power of stripping resources and using provinces for their own vanity over actually listening to those who need them. The Empire was to protect people, yet instead it lets people get kidnapped by the Thalmor and pretends they never existed.

I already won this debate.

 

[Jeremius]

He betrayed the POLITICIANS, for the PEOPLE. I would follow a man like that, but I am still unsure of the MAN himself. Maybe if he was more for the people, in general.

You know that when you enter Castle Dour, to face Rikke and Tullius. Talk to Ulfric, he'll be sad about the situation. "War always comes down to this, doesn't it? A single truth-laden moment."

The man isn't doing this because he desires power, or because he's this blood thirsty savage. He hates war, but will admire the skill, dedication and courage it takes to fight in it.

Yet, in his focus on the Civil War, he left his own city in bad shape. I will always have reservations, but Imperial corruption should not taint the land of Skyrim anymore.

The Stormcloaks shall have my bow, and by Y'ffre, the taint of corruption will cease to exist.

 

[Jorrvaskr]

Yet, in his focus on the Civil War, he left his own city in bad shape.

His city is thousands of years old, the oldest city in Skyrim. It's not going to look like Solitude; Windhelm faces some of the harshest of Skyrim's weather. Whiterun's walls are falling down, the city is barely standing. Why isn't Balgruuf called out for that? Unlike Ulfric, he isn't funding a rebellion.

Once the Civil War is won, he'll focus on repairing Windhelm, which will become the capital of Skyrim. Is that so bad? You never see the Empire putting provinces ahead of Cyrodiil.

 

[Jeremius]

Yet, in his focus on the Civil War, he left his own city in bad shape.

His city is thousands of years old, the oldest city in Skyrim. It's not going to look like Solitude; Windhelm faces some of the harshest of Skyrim's weather. Whiterun's walls are falling down, the city is barely standing. Why isn't Balgruuf called out for that? Unlike Ulfric, he isn't funding a rebellion.

Once the Civil War is won, he'll focus on repairing Windhelm, which will become the capital of Skyrim. Is that so bad? You never see the Empire putting provinces ahead of Cyrodiil.

The suffering of Windhelm at this time, is worth the price of freedom from the Empire's weakness. If they won't stand up for themselves, why should Skyrim sacrifice for them.

 

[Jorrvaskr]

The suffering of Windhelm at this time, is worth the price of freedom from the Empire's weakness. If they won't stand up for themselves, why should Skyrim sacrifice for them.

Windhelm is just a pot of racial tensions, it's between all the races. Since it hasn't resulted into violence, shows Ulfric can keep things under control.

 

[Anouck]

This thread is now property of the rebellion, leave imperial liar.

Why so mean

You make stuff up, then use in-game stuff to back up that mad up stuff.

He doesn't make stuff up. You can disagree with it all you want, but he does not make stuff up..

 

[Jorrvaskr]

Back to the time when a king was a king because his enemies fell before him, and his people rose because they loved him.​

 

[Jeremius]

Why so mean

You make stuff up, then use in-game stuff to back up that mad up stuff.

He doesn't make stuff up. You can disagree with it all you want, but he does not make stuff up..

When you use "evidence" That does not connect to your point, it is not evidence to your point.

 

[Anouck]

You make stuff up, then use in-game stuff to back up that mad up stuff.

He doesn't make stuff up. You can disagree with it all you want, but he does not make stuff up..

When you use "evidence" That does not connect to your point, it is not evidence to your point.

It depends on what type of evidence you use. It would be rather stupid to use evidence that does not back up your case. Obviously you look for facts and proof in favor of the faction you support. I don't know what you do in debates, but using evidence to prove you're right is the whole point of bringing up evidence. Evidence has no value in a debate when you use random facts that aren't related to what you have to say.

When you're an Imperial, you treat DrunkenMage like this trustworthy guy you can go to for lore and information. Then you turn Stormcloak and all of the sudden he is "a liar"? I did not know the credibility of someone's arguments depends on which faction you join, Jeremius?