Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[NENALATA]

@Raijn


Judging by your personal insult in lieu of reason, I beg to differ. Clearly that's her trait. Mine is giving too much reason. Both can be made. Moderation in everything I suppose. :/

 

[DrunkenMage]

If the Mede Dynasty ends and another person becomes Emperor and declares a new Empire, then that new Empire will become the Fourth Empire.

WHY? You just contradicted yourself. Mede is THE NEW Emperor. The Septime Dynasty Empire ended with Uriel Ocato. Titus Mede II was not from the old administration. It was not the same Empire.

Ocato of Firsthold was an Altmer and Imperial Battlemage to Uriel Septim VII, unrelated to any of the Septim's. Titus Mede I took the Imperial City and named himself Emperor but he never declared a new Empire.

That isn't contradiction, the Mede Dynasty never declared a new Empire. Thus it is still the Third Empire.

 

[NENALATA]

Stormcrown Interegnum. THE ELDER COUNCIL FRACTURED.


http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Stormcrown_Interregnum


Good night guys, good night.

 

[Raijin]

How is Dagmar lying to us when she uses lore to explain things? Since when does that equalize to lying? I don't understand your post at all, and to be quite frankly it doesn't make any sense at all.

She uses lore because she can't explain things. Lore is easy, I can read it from a script. A true explanation is much more complicate than that. I called her a lyer because she called me one when I have sources from lore, from books in the GAME ITSELF which she denies.

Why should she have to explain things when it's right there in the Lore? Why does she have to write up an essay when she could very well c/p lore? I've done this plenty of times, and yes it is easy... why take the difficult route?

So she called you a liar... you felt threaten by the insult, and so you decided to return insults?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Yes the Elder Council fractured for control over the Throne. Not the a new thing, the entire Elder Council has been dismissed to fix Debts by a Septim Emperor once before.

Just because the Elder Council splits apart doesn't mean a new Empire is called for.

 

[NENALATA]

Morrowind never even returned to the Empire after the Oblivion crises (before Mede took the throne) because Ocato abandoned them in favor of protecting Cyrodil.

Two completely different Empires.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:House_Hlaalu

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:House_Redoran

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Morrowind

The Empire's ineffectual protection and seeming indifference to Morrowind's plights made them reviled by the Dunmer. After the Empire "released its grasp" on Morrowind,[28] House Hlaalu's Imperial ties resulted in it being replaced by House Sadras on the Council of Great Houses.[32][33]

Neither did Argonia, come to think of it. Before Titus Mede ever even saw the throne, Morrowind and Argonia were gooone.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Morrowind never even returned to the Empire after the Oblivion crises because Ocato abandoned them in favor of protecting Cyrodil.

Two completely different Empires.

I don't see the connection there, yes Morrowind left the Third Empire. They still aren't a part of the Third Empire two hundred years later.

 

[Lunaruse]

 

[Dagmar]

...[wall of text consisting largely of rant and screed]....

Here's a a little tip. In order to argue about lore you actually have to have a clue about what constitutes lore. Words have meaning and arguing about what is lore is pointless if you don't even know what constitutes lore. Lore is not what people assert to be lore on a third party wiki site that has no affiliation with Bethesda let alone one of the most poorly maintained wiki sites about the Elder Scrolls universe on the internet. Relying solely on a site like wikia is ignorant and intellectually lazy.

In case it still escapes you, nothing published on any third party website in and of itself constitutes lore. Lore comes strictly from three sources:

1. Information culled from the actual game content itself, including readable documents that can be found in the games, observable events that occur in the games, conversations and dialogues that the player can hear/read in the game either passively or by elicitng responses through active conversation with NPC's, and observable intended game mechanics (e.g. racial powers, artifacts, enchantments, spells and alchemy).

2. Information published by Bethesda and asserted as part of the lore (e.g. both ediitions of the Pocket Guide to the Empire, the Redguard comic book, the Q&A sessions with the developers of the Elder Scrolls Online game, and the already published information about the lore ESO).

3. Sources officially adopted by Bethesda as canon (e.g. the two Elder Scrolls Novels, The Infernal City and Lord of Souls).

Nothing else is lore. Anything claimed to be lore on a third party site like the Elder Scrolls Wikia or the Unoffical Elder Scrolls Pages that does not and cannot cite to a source that falls into one of the above three categories is not lore and is either speculation or outright fabrication. If you begin to examine the derth of citation to sources in the lore articles at the Eder Scrolls Wikia site you'll begin to understand why it's become a bit of a running joke among players that are well informed about the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe.

In general the utility of a third party site when looking for lore information is its ability to point you in the right direction to finding actual primary source in the games or elsewhere. It's intellectually lazy to blindly rely on the information at a third party website, especially if it doesn't even site a source for the information. People who conduct themselves in that way and then purport to be informed on the lore of the games are ultimately setting themselves up for a potentially big fall in a public forum that will make them look ignorant and foolish.

Notwithstanding your failure to comprehend what constitutes game lore the first link you provided doesn't even state that the Mede Dynasty is the Fourth Empire. Dynasty doesn't equal Empire. An Empire can have several Dynasties and other eras of rule. The Second Empire spanned the duration of the Reman Dynasty and the Akaviri Potentate and the Third Empire spans the Septim Dynasty, Ocato Potentate and the Mede Dynasty. Put in simpler terms in order for one Empire to begin another Empire has to end and that never happened after the Oblivion Crisis. The Stormcrown Interregum was a chaotic time for the Third Empire but it still existed with the Ruby Throne in contention for seven years until Titus Mede seized it with his Colovian army.

Regardless of what you would like to believe, there was the equivalent of several Legions left in Cyrodiil after the Battle of the Red Ring. It's simple lore and mathematics.

Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year

By inference that means that some remaining Legions had up to half of their soldiers remaining. The author of the book was in command of the Tenth Legion so at minimum that would mean 7 Legions that had up to half of their soldiers fit for duty. Further, in The Infernal City Prince Attrebus Mede makes reference to a guard he meets having served under his father in the Eighteenth Legion so it's probable the remaining Legionnaires were far greater in number than that after the end of the Battle of the Red Ring:

"That was quite a gamble," Sul said when they were gone. "Telling them who you were. What if they had decided to ransom you?"

Attrebus smiled, suddenly feeling a bit shaky.

"I saw he was wearing the badge of the eighteenth legion," he said. "Just under his cloak, pinned next to a lock of some girl's hair. I knew he'd not only fought for my father, but that he was still proud of it."

When Titus II believed that the Legion was not in a position to continue the war it was based on the Legion's vulnerability to another large scale invasion wave not an inability to defend its borders from small scale incursions along its borders and certainly not because the Aldmeri Dominion would be able to seize the Ruby Throne again with those kind of tactics.

I have accurately stated the following:

1. The Empire in its last two incarnations has conquered the Aldmeri Dominion and Summerset Isle;
2. The Aldmeri Dominion has never conquered the Empire;
3. The Aldmeri forces in Cyrodiil were wiped out completely (Your speculation that it's otherwise is contradicted by the definitive lore text on the Great War and completely unsupported by any other game content or Bethesda lore materials. It's also irrelevant if a handfull of them survived as it still makes your claim that they had any hold in Cyrodiil after the Battle of the Red Ring hollow and incredulous)
4. The Aldmeri Dominion was too weak to defend its territory in southern Hammerfell after the end of the Great War as it ceded it all back to the Redguards with the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai.

This is all supported by the lore text The Great War irrespective of whether you've read it or understand that it's part of the information it conveys.

By inference that means the Aldmeri Dominion was not in a position to reinvade and occupy Cyrodiil as the territory in Hammerfell was a fraction of the territory that encompasses Cyrodiil and it couldn't even hold that. Therefore the Aldmeri didn't "spare" the Empire from anything. In point of fact it milked the situation for the only things it could (a) the territory it already controlled in Hammerfell at the time of the White-Gold Concordat and (b) the banning of the worship of Talos. If it could have reoccupied Cyrodiil it would have. As you pointed out, there was no harm to its own territories so the only reason it wouldn't have re-invaded is because it didn't have the resources to do so. That's not lore but it's a reasonable conclusion based on lore that stands in stark contrast to your rather random speculations as to why it didn't happen which don't have any game content to support them.

 

[DrunkenMage]

With all these people from Thalmor groups, Argonian and what not. I wonder if we should form our own group.

 

[Dagmar]

Stormcrown Interegnum. THE ELDER COUNCIL FRACTURED.


http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Stormcrown_Interregnum

Fractured =/= dissolved. Again nothing in that article, which is not an actual lore source, states that the Third Empire ended or that a Fourth one began. Had you had the intellectual fortitude you would have noted the lone citation to Rising Threat, an actual primary lore source found within the game in, among other places, Sybille Stentor's room at the Blue Palace. That book clearly states that the Third Empire still existed during the Stormcrown Interregnum even though it was in disarray:

Potentate Ocato's murder began the Stormcrown Interregnum. The Elder Councilfractured, leading into years of ruthless in-fighting, plots and backstabbing. Many tried to claim the Ruby Throne. Most were pretenders to the crown, a few had legitimate claims, others still were little more than brutal dullards who thought mere strength of arms was all the entitlement they needed. Violent, unnatural storms lashed the Imperial Cityseveral times during this anarchy, always with the eye of the storm looking directly down upon White-Gold Tower, as if this was the judgment of the Nine Divines.
With the Empire submerged in this mayhem, the Thalmor were quick to act. They overthrew the rightful Kings and Queens of the Altmer. I remember the revulsion and horror that took hold when word reached me - that this dementia had gripped my homeland. Once so proud and majestic, many of our great race actually embraced this insanity!
Then the first of many pogroms descended on Summerset Isle. They slaughtered any who were not "of the blood of the Aldmer". A fine excuse to purge the dissidents, as well - the Thalmor have never been ones to waste such an opportunity.
After seven long, bloody years the Stormcrown Interregnum was ended when a Colovianwarlord by the name of Titus Medeseized the crown. Whether he had rightful claim or not is moot. Without Titus Mede, there would not be an Empire today. He proved a shrewd and capable leader, such that Skyrim endorsed him as Emperor.
With the Empire stabilizing under the auspicious efforts Emperor Titus Mede, I resumed my efforts to warn them of the Thalmor threat.

Take note that all references to the Empire refer to it as still being in existence and saved by Titus Mede. In case it needs to be made more explicit for you, this is an actual lore source that refutes your misguided notion that the Mede Dynasty marked the beginning of a Fourth Empire.

 

[Raijin]

With all these people from Thalmor groups, Argonian and what not. I wonder if we should form our own group.

That would be great. Now what shall we name our group? The Loremasters?

 

[Ivory]

With all these people from Thalmor groups, Argonian and what not. I wonder if we should form our own group.

That would be great. Now what shall we name our group? The Loremasters?

For some curious reason that makes me think of Marvel's Watcher characters.

 

[DrunkenMage]

We shall form a group and Dagmar be ruler. Empress Dagmar, Heir to the Seat of Sundered Kings.

 

[The Laoch]

Man, this thread has been awesome lately.

 

[NENALATA]

@Luna

In answer to the thread itself:

Seeing how we couldn't choose to join the Thalmor, I went Empire. Strangely enough, I believe they are the only ones capable of turning this around for man and for providing the prospect of a better future for Elves. Would be nice if the Dominon and the Empire could resolve their differences and just leave it at that. The Empire has risen and fallen many times, but always come back stronger. Although usually when the Empire has had problems it's due to poor leadership that's lost touch with the people.

These are two of my favorite Skyrim videos on YouTube.

Thought I'd share. Have fun guys. They're even better played together at the same time (100%/40% Sound). Truly Epic.

 

[The Laoch]

I played both sides, and when I first came to this forum I tried supporting the Stormcloaks. It is way too hard. I still thought in Skyrim they should of brought over the High Rock Legions and lay waste to all the Stormcloaks with battle mages.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Imperial Legion can fly. All other arguments are invalid.

The Imperial Legion has entire divisions of battlemages. In Lord of Souls the battlemages empower the Imperial Legions with the power of flight to assault the floating city Umbriel.

 

[Lunaruse]

@Luna


Seeing how we couldn't choose to join the Thalmor, I went Empire. Strangely enough, I believe they are the only ones capable of turning this around for man and for providing the prospect of a better future for Elves. Would be nice if the Dominon and the Empire could resolve their differences and just leave it at that. The Empire has risen and fallen many times, but always come back stronger. Although usually when the Empire has had problems it's due to poor leadership that's lost touch with the people.

The Empire had no qualms with the Dominion. It never attacked it until they were first attacked. The Dominion has killed so many of our own kind that I find it impossible to support them in any way. I believe that you too will soon see the light. The Thalmor are truly wicked and do not deserve any real support. The only way for there to truly be peace is either when the Thalmor disband or perish.

 

[Balerion Blackdread]

@Luna​

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Not very likely my friend but I appreciate the sentiment and I respect your position. And don't worry, I have a party to go to and then I'm taking tomorrow off. I have no intention to waste my time arguing with someone who is never wrong.​

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Dagmar​

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After briefly examining your last post, I was getting ready to start running the marathon again when something struck me. You see, this is about presentation and the way we come to a decision on what's factual and what's not. This is the difference between us. Just because you don't answer the question fully doesn't necessarily make you wrong, but it does mean that you do not do as much research, processing and delving into the story behind whatever the topic is like I do. Which is why there's so much confusion. It's not my fault that I have a better microscope, you see a cell and close the book on questions like where did it come from? What is it? Does the cell have other properties not readily apparent. Same holds true for Lore. Skyrim is alot bigger than one book.​

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@Everyone​

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It doesn't make her wrong ~ but if you're not going to go the extra mile then she has no right telling me I'm wrong for doing so. And that's my way of doing this. I jump on the hell forge and I take my craft seriously, piling over sources and polishing lumps of coal until they shine like sparkling rubies, which makes me shine as well. And the only way this is accomplished is to leave the safety of the proverbial sand box and void the limits that society places on concepts and is willing to accept.​

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With me, the safety is off and the gun is fully loaded. I go on safari, I *listen* to both local sources and from other sources whom at least to society, seem off the wall and irrelevant. But that's where the truth lays hidden. It's not in front of your face and it's not for everyone. But it's out there. And that's the difference, I am after truth. I am not after what everyone else has come to accept and refuses to see any different. If everyone tells you to stop, that you are wrong, then you might be. Or it could be that with knowledge comes responsibility and people just don't want to accept it. So they stay willfully ignorant and the wolves have a field day. Authorities hate this and yet at the same time, are too lazy or selfish to take responsibility for being wrong, for accusing others of being wrong and would never right themselves even!!!​

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I like Wiki's and considering how all our news is more or less bought and paid for, why would a free data storage service intentionally lie? They're not making any money from this and they're not bias ~ Unless it's something the mercenary news networks don't want published. If it wasn't for the Wiki's and the internet itself really, we would have to pay $$$$$$$$$$$ for subscriptions to various news services to get just a little information, if that.​