NENALATA said:
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First of all, I was talking about Titus Mede II's Empire. As with the prior response, which I graciously ignored, you have completely disregarded my context. No where in that sentence or in that paragraph am I talking about previous Empire's? That doesn't even make sense. I also find it interesting how you left out defeat of the 4th Empire. - No mention of this whatsoever So that tells me all I needed to know about the intentions behind your "facts". I am, after all, an observer of human nature.
Titus Mede II's Empire is Tiber Septim's Empire. There is no "Fourth Empire". I didn't disregard your context. You're simply lore ignorant. The Mede Dynasty and the Septim Dynasty are both part of the Third Empire. There's nothing gracious about ignoring something because you can't rebut it. The Third Empire didn't lose to the Aldmeri Dominion in the Great War. If it lost there wouldn't have been a treaty and, for all the thousands of Altmer it lost in the war, the Aldmeri didn't have a single acre of new territory to show for it in the end. The Third Empire on the other hand conquered all of the Aldmeri Dominion. To simplify the concept so you can absorb it
Third Empire: 1
Aldmeri Dominion: 0
This is the Empire of the Meads. Not Talos and Not the Septims. This is the fourth Empire. I thought you said you were into 'real lore' and 'real canon'? Is this real enough for you:
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Empires
Therefore, the Meade Empire is considered to be the 'fourth' Empire. When the Dragonborn or someone else takes up the reigns of power, the Mede Empire will then be called, 'The Fourth Empire' and another dynasty takes it's place. So, you are wrong... again. Considering how this latest collection of 'facts' by you is looking, I can only tell what else I'm going to find in here.
You also missed what I meant by 'gracious' but that's alright. People make mistakes. And it doesn't matter what happened back then, what matters is the shape of things now. You can never move forward by constantly looking back. :/ When we burned down the Imperial palace, did the Empire's previous victories hinder us at that point in time?
And I don't appreciate being called lore ignorant by someone who doesn't even know the lore themselves. The more of your posts I see, the less I'm convinced you know what you're talking about.
NENALATA said:
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The Empire won the battle of red ring and the Thalmor could not immediately deal with this loss. This is Fact. But here's the difference, Empire did virtually no damage to the Dominion itself.
Again
so what? This does nothing to refute that the Aldmeri Dominion didn't "spare" the Empire and that it didn't have the resources for a second wave.
Are you kidding me? ROFLMAO The EMPIRE didn't have the resources to continue with confidence. The DOMINION had the resources to continue but not right away. This implies the Dominion let the Empire go, but had the option to continue fighting with fresh, troops from their 'resources' back home.
NENALATA said:
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Not all Dominion troops were wiped out in Cyrodil, as you and your crew delusion-ally claim.
The only one delusional here is you. The book
The Great War clearly states that the Dominion army in Cyrodiil was the main army and that it was completely destroyed as it states
You try to cover up your delusions with personal attacks on me. You sure you're not a shadow scale? Ok, our main army was Destroyed in Cyrodil.
The Great War - A Concise Account of the Great War Between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion said:
In the end, the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed. The Emperor's decision to withdraw from the Imperial City in 4E 174 was bloodily vindicated.
No one ever said that all of the soldiers of the Aldmeri Dominion were destroyed. That's just a total failure in reading comprehension on your part. The rest of your little screed is pointless as it doesn't address the fact that the bulk of the invasion force was destroyed or that the Aldmeri Dominion was too weak to hold its newly gained territories in southern Hammerfell. You can recite all the irrelevant events in the Fourth Era as much as you want and it won't change these irrefutable truths.
But if you look a couple pages back ( I have been trying to review past posts ) I remember seeing people saying to the contrary and arguing ( including you ) that the Dominion had no choice but to sign the treaty. That a weakened Empire Forced us to sign a treaty. Which isn't accurate. Now you're trying to swing this thing around and be like me. Stick to your childish personal attacks and petulant attitude. It's paying off.
You're the one reciting irrelevant events. What I have cited so far is re-enforced with a link to a public library on the subject.
NENALATA said:
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They wiped out the troops sent into that nightmarish battle in Cyrodil, and very few escaped that hell hole. This is Factmy ignorance feigning as lore.
Fixed it for you. If you're referring to the Aldmeri Dominion forces in Cyrodiil, as stated above, none escaped from the Battle of the Red Ring. If you're referring to the Imperial Legions that's even more ignorant as there were several legions left afterwards
You can't say that not even (1) soldiers escaped. I'm sure they weren't all destroyed, but then again unlike yourself I'm an optimist. There are also NOT several Legions left afterwards.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War
Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year. Titus II knew that there would be no better time to negotiate peace, and late in 4E 175 the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion signed the
White-Gold Concordat, ending the Great War.
The Legions left were survivors and not fit for the Battlefield. You see, a Legion is not just an army, it's also a group of tactics that work ONLY IF the Legion is capable of performing them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_legion
If a Legion's numbers fall past a certain degree, the Legion is useless because it can't perform it's function.
NENALATA said:
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However, we still had armies in Hammerfell and armies "behind the lines" back home but would not have been ready for deployment in time to stop the Legions should they have advanced further into our holdings in Cyrodil.
And what holdings would those be? The ones held by wishful thinking and happy Thalmor thoughts since there wasn't a single survivor left in Cyrodiil after the Battle of the Red Ring?
Now, you're just insulting my superior Mer intelligence. You're not making the 'lesser races' look to good right now... Let me go to the cupboard and fetch you a graham cracker and a glass of milk... hmm... that's not a bad idea actually. I like the ones covered in brown sugar with maple syrup, they're good.
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Fourth_Era
Leyawiin falls to the invaders, and
Bravil is surrounded and besieged.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War
During 4E 172, the Aldmeri advanced deeper into Cyrodiil. Bravil and Anvil both fell to the invaders. By the end of the year, Lord Naarifin had advanced to the very walls of the Imperial City. There were fierce naval clashes in
Lake Rumare and along the
Niben as the Imperial forces attempted to hold the eastern bank.
During 4E 172, the Aldmeri advanced deeper into Cyrodiil. Bravil and Anvil both fell to the invaders. By the end of the year, Lord Naarifin had advanced to the very walls of the Imperial City. There were fierce naval clashes in
Lake Rumare and along the
Niben as the Imperial forces attempted to hold the eastern bank.
Lord Naarifin was taken by surprise by Decianus's assault, but Jonna's troops faced bitter resistance as the Aldmeri counterattacked from Bravil and
Skingrad.
NENALATA said:
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Perhaps we should have held out longer, with a still functioning, "unscathed" infrastructure, there's no doubt the Empire and the few Legions they had left would have fallen to a war of attrition.
More headcanon.
Reasonable conclusion based on facts listed above. You have no right calling anyone names here, as you apparently can't tell fact from your own 'headcanon'.
NENALATA said:
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Cyrodil was left in ruins, Southern Hammerfell was in ruins and still under siege
By the Redguard resistance not the Aldmeri Dominion. The Aldmeri Dominion was the occupying force in southern Hammerfell.
Was still left in ruins because their southern cities resisted the Dominion. Not to mention the fighting back and forth as the Dominion retreated.
The Great War - A Concise Account of the Great War Between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion said:
In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east. These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174, taking heavy losses on their retreat from harassing attacks by the Alik'r warriors.
Again the fact of the matter is that the Aldmeri Dominion couldn't even hold its occupied territories in Hammerfell which is why your headcanon of it prevailing in a war of attrition is delusional and lore ignorant.
Actually, that's your Headcanon. The Dominion couldn't hold the North, they held the South. The Redguards NEVER drove the Dominion out of Hammerfell, we agreed to leave.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War
Epilogue: Hammerfell Fights On Alone
Hammerfell, however, refused to accept the White-Gold Concordat, being unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal. In this, the Thalmor certainly achieved one of their long-term goals by sowing lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire.
In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated. The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire. The truth of that assertion can, of course, never be known. But the Redguards should not forget the great sacrifice of Imperial blood -
Breton, Nord, and Cyrodilic - at the Battle of the Red Ring that weakened the Dominion enough to allow the eventual
Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in
4E 180 and the withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell.
There can be no doubt that the current peace cannot last forever. The Thalmor take the long view, as is proved by the sequence of events leading up to the Great War. All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat. Otherwise, any hope to stem the tide of Thalmor rule over all of Tamriel is dimmed.
NENALATA said:
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lol Really? What kind of counter argument is this exactly? I never said they were "Altmer" creations, I said, "Elven".
It's not a counterargument. It's an observation of how irrelevant your statement was as it has nothing to do with the Aldmeri Dominion and Summerset Isle repeatedly being conquered by the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion failing to do so to the Empire in every incarnation to date.
Then why try and counter my argument with it? Were you just providing me with A Declarative sentence? What you're saying still makes no sense. You were saying that I was referring to the Altmer, when I had POSTED it was about the Elves? If you can't read what it's on the screen and use your cognitive processes to follow the related meaning thereof, then I can't help you.
NENALATA said:
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Again, I know reading comprehension is overrated these days but that's not my fault.
As someone whose competing to be its poster child I think you can proudly take some responsibility for it. It's ironic when one attributes a failure to comprehend based on their own vast deficits in the ability to comprehend what they're reading.
No clue. This is just vile. Like most of your posts. No reason, no understanding, no value to this whatsoever. Just bitter hate and bile. And I'm not going to just look the other way.
NENALATA said:
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You have yet to prove me wrong on any of this, thus far.
I've proven you wrong on any relevant statement you made. I don't have to or care about disproving irrelevant statements you make to commit logical fallacies like straw men and red herrings.
Oh really? When and where did this happen? So far, I have yet to find one thing in either of these posts that's accurate. Except above where you restated something from my post that was right to begin with. Another thing, stop using terms like "Strawman". Both of your posts have been strong man arguments. I have gone line by line, providing references which re-enforce my counter examples. You're not that smart, if you can't get this fantasy stuff down right, why should I believe you understand how to argue?
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/strawman
NENALATA said:
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Furthermore, it's called critical thinkingengaging in logical fallacies.
Fixed it for you again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking
Then this is where we conflict. Filing away someone's ideas, findings or arguments under 'Logical Fallacies' is a great way to be lazy and naive. In other words, it's a way for authorities and social criminals to counter truthful arguments or results which run contradictory to theirs and make them look bad. Again, that's not my fault. If you have a problem with free speech or someone else presenting evidence which PROVES you have no idea what you're talking about, then that doesn't make me wrong.
NENALATA said:
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I have no doubt whatsoever that you're interested in uhh 'real lore' and 'canon'... when it serves your defense on these forums.
The only thing I'm defending is accurate presentation of lore and refuting distortions motivated by transparent biases of players who have ulterior agendas and will try to misrepresent what is lore to support those agendas. You clearly have one here. I don't. Claiming something you say is "real lore" and "real canon" doesn't magically make it so. The fact of the matter is that you haven't pointed to a single actual lore source to support your positions.
How? You mention 'accurate presentation', if you don't like my presentation that DOES NOT MAKE ME WRONG. And I have provided sources from lore. The fact of the matter is, you have shown yourself a close minded person who can't take the heat of someone providing evidence that fully refuts distorted and malicious claims present by you in your last two posts and I can only imagine others.
NENALATA said:
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And furthermore, the creations of the Elder Scrolls Universe have said over and over again that there is plenty of room for Conjecture or people to draw their own conclusions.
By your very own words it's conjecture not lore.
And by the creators of the Elder Scrolls, anything you derive from the events of Elder Scrolls is also conjecture. Do you own Bethesda?
NENALATA said:
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, I believe in Critical thinking and analyzing 'real lore' and 'canon'. You can not ever prove me wrong on this, you cannot every utter a word against it because what happened Between the Events on the Elder Scrolls Timeline is left up to us to investigate and deduce results as best we can
And it's not lore, simply your speculation, and poorly constructed speculation at that. Like I said if you want to create your own headcanon that's you're prerogative. It's not my concern, but it's unrealistic to think you're going to falsely assert things as lore or that lore supports your conclusions and that you're not going to get called on it. You haven't done anything but spout your personal headcanon and made poorly constructed arguments based on lore that doesn't support your conclusions or psuedo lore that you've mistakenly believe to be actual lore.
But it is Lore. The writers are not going to force-feed us every little detail. And that is the ONLY way you could ever be proven right. Is if every little detail was documented. Like leaves falling from trees and how many Mud Crabs washed their arse today. Stop trying to turn this around on me. YOU are the one who has presented mis-information and because of your petulant attitude, I will call you on it. It is YOU spouting head-cannon. Head cannon would like me saying, "A flying spaghetti monster became the new Emperor." Headcanon is NOT well the Thalmor has guards left in the cities they occupied after the primary army was destroyed. That's based on fact and any reasonable person would infer this.
And if the admins have a problem with this, I'm sorry but I don't like dealing with Childish people who act like they're something they're not. If she had taken a softer more respectful tone with me, we wouldn't be at this juncture.
