Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[General Charles Xander]

You know, I've always wondered how people call the Empire bad because they killed the thief who tried to steal a horse during a time of war and he did run.

But, it is perfectly fine for the Nords to arrest the Honeybrew Mead guy and sentence him to life in prison over a pl*** tasting drink. That in itself is a death sentence, a slow one at that, given the poor condition of prisons in Tamriel. At least the Thief died quick.

(Unless of course the Stormcloaks have taken Whiterun) it's actually an Imperial that arrests him.

Been through this argument before, but...

"While many crimes were punished through ritualized shaming or banishment, horse theft often brought severe punishment, including branding, torture, exile and even death"-Wikia

 

[General Charles Xander]

That is under normal circumstances. Add to the fact that we don't know what kind or who's horse he stole and it's during time of war, the punishment is most certainly death.

 

[DrunkenMage]

It's very much a non Stormcloak institution, even if it isn't the Empire. It is simply a Skyrim institution, under Jarl Balgruuf, who begins as neutral.

It happens if the Stormcloaks control the Hold too. Just Sinmir does the arrest instead of Caius. The point I was making is this was done under local province authority, so while the Legion gets called evil for killing a Horse Thief which actually is a big deal in those times, no one bats an eyelash at Sabjorn's puhisnment. It is pointing out the hypocrisy of the thread, it is perfectly fine to send someone to jail for life over bad tasting mead (which is a death sentence due to poor conditions of prisons), but it crosses the line to execute someone who tried to steal a horse during a time of war.

Horses are life and death for many people, their livelihood depends on a working horse.

 

[Ancano]

It's very much a non Stormcloak institution, even if it isn't the Empire. It is simply a Skyrim institution, under Jarl Balgruuf, who begins as neutral.

It happens if the Stormcloaks control the Hold too. Just Sinmir does the arrest instead of Caius. The point I was making is this was done under local province authority, so while the Legion gets called evil for killing a Horse Thief which actually is a big deal in those times, no one bats an eyelash at Sabjorn's puhisnment. It is pointing out the hypocrisy of the thread, it is perfectly fine to send someone to jail for life over bad tasting mead (which is a death sentence due to poor conditions of prisons), but it crosses the line to execute someone who tried to steal a horse during a time of war.

Horses are life and death for many people, their livelihood depends on a working horse.

What tha- c'mon na

That Thief wasn't executed for trying to steal a horse, we don't even know if he was caught in the attempt. They was all going to get wacked because they were caught with Ulfric. Gen Tully intended to carry out a summary execution as Military Gov in a time of war under Imperial Martial Law. This was Declared immed after Ulfric murdered the High King Torygg as an example, because of Ulfric's intentions of insighting terror in the other Jarl's. Same reason Ulfric attacked Whiterun and sent out Raider Hits Squads to harass the populace throughout Whiterun hold.

Empire is actually right on this occassion because Ulfric would have done the same thing if Skyrim was at war. Hell, US, UK, EU, any nation that Declares Martial Law will act accordingly.

In fact, Thalmor Justiciar Squads were dispatched into Skyrim for basically the same reason sometime after the Markarth Incident.

 

[DrunkenMage]

That Thief wasn't executed for trying to steal a horse, we don't even know if he was caught in the attempt. They was all going to get wacked because they were caught with Ulfric.

Technically he was executed because...

When you're told to stop by the Military, you don't keep running.

But, he was caught trying to steal a horse. Why wouldn't he be executed for it? Stealing a horse is a big deal, and the Stormcloaks should be thanking us. He was stealing a horse in their Hold of Eastmarch, from their citizens. Someone has to provide justice for the Nords living there, if the Stormcloaks won't.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

You know, I've always wondered how people call the Empire bad because they killed the thief who tried to steal a horse during a time of war and he did run.

The people who did that are bleeding hearts, I can assure you that no one I know cared about that fool

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

the Stormcloaks should be thanking us. He was stealing a horse in their Hold of Eastmarch, from their citizens. Someone has to provide justice for the Nords living there, if the Stormcloaks won't.

He was caught because he was within proximity of the Stormcloaks not because he was stealing a horse, he just happened to be doing so

 

[Ancano]

the Stormcloaks should be thanking us. He was stealing a horse in their Hold of Eastmarch, from their citizens. Someone has to provide justice for the Nords living there, if the Stormcloaks won't.

He was caught because he was within proximity of the Stormcloaks not because he was stealing a horse, he just happened to be doing so

Yes. He could have stolen that horse and been halfway to Hammerfell.

In regards to the topic at hand, I pray I'm not out of place discussing this here and don't intend on going into lengthy detail, however, I'm concerned by something.

Regrettably, I must testify to the Stormcloaks disdain for Imperial law. I am not advocating the Stormcloaks, I am not advocating Stormcloak justice. However, what things have boiled down to, is Cyrodil carrying out justice on citizens from another Province. Think... India executing Pakistanis or Iranians. OR you could say, plp from Washington executing people from Texas.

They have the right to do so under Martial Law, however, authority over justice is being enforced from a different country, essentially.

I can understand the Stormcloaks being upset over this. However, it's a catch 22 because the reason Martial Law was declared was because of Ulfric's actions. By bringing down the Regional Gov, this gave the Cyrodil Empire increased rights to power over Skyrim. In other words, power vacuum which was completely avoidable. Oh God I've started caring again. Someone please pray for me.

 

[Ancano]

You know, I've always wondered how people call the Empire bad because they killed the thief who tried to steal a horse during a time of war and he did run.

The people who did that are bleeding hearts, I can assure you that no one I know cared about that fool

Well I cared for him. Kinda. Let's just say I can sympathize with his bad luck, albeit would have handled the situation differently. He would have met a similar end either way, as anyone successful from his trade understands the need for patience.

Another concern of mine, is how cold the Stormcloaks are towards their own people. For example, other than the Lokir discussion, I've heard other Stormcloaks say they would rather let something like Bruma burn and fall, because it's a Province of Cyrodil, rather than try and save what I understand to be a former Nord Hold... because it's a Province of Cyrodil.

It's just it seems unless you're in Ulfric's service, you're denied Nord traditions and honors. That's a Nord problem though, none of my concern.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

I have a question;

How can the Thalmor Embassy simply order a bunch of new mages into Skyrim, but the new reinforcements of the Legion can't get past Pale Pass?

 

[Ancano]

I have a question;

How can the Thalmor Embassy simply order a bunch of new mages into Skyrim, but the new reinforcements of the Legion can't get past Pale Pass?

Seaport. Most likely were shipped from Alinor via Solitude. Or, simply could have been "dropped off" at any one of the abandoned docks in the vicinity.

As for the Legion, I would imagine most of their military would indeed be on the border with the Dominion or everyone is hold up in Cyrodil. The Emperor wants to qualm the war however he has to have priorities.

I would consider the Thalmor getting reinforcements an encouraging sign.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I have a question;

How can the Thalmor Embassy simply order a bunch of new mages into Skyrim, but the new reinforcements of the Legion can't get past Pale Pass?

They can by sea, but Titus II was holding back the reinforcements. Also to transport the soldiers you need the warships to escort their transports, probably can't spare the navy.

Marching up through the Pass means they're a fairly large force, and if they have to rely on their own supply lines they won't be weeks/months away from support via sea.

The Thalmor bringing in a few Mages would be easier than moving a few thousand Legionaries.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Little quote from Kirkbride;

They cannot be understood. They are the Other and they hate everything that even smells like mortality.

Can't say Bethesda will go the Thalmor-destroy-everything route lorewise but the first sentence sounds reasonable.

I doubt they seek to destroy everything, but it is possible. They seek to recreate a new Merethic Era, and where people most likely get they want to deactivate the towers is probably from Mankar's dialogue. "Soon, very soon, the lines now blurred will be erased. Tamriel and Oblivion rejoined! The Mythic Age reborn!" Mythic Age being another name for the Merethic Era.

I'm not well versed in this area of lore, but from what I understand White-Gold Tower is the most powerful. Due to it being in the middle of Tamriel + several smaller towers around it like a wheel. If I remember correctly White-Gold can undo the damage or speed it up. We mainly see the Stormcloak supporters go on about the destruction of the world.

I have to wonder though, if they're so concerned about Nirn and what not. Why aren't they aiding the side that A) knows about the power and B) controls the tower.

Instead it is all death to the Empire. Even if you don't like what they've been doing, better the Empire remains strong together. Cause when they fall, plops hits the fan. What happened when it fell during the Second Era? Nearly sucked into Oblivion. What happened if it fell during the Third Era? Sucked into Oblivion.

What happens if it falls during the Fourth Era, while the Aldmeri Dominion remain the major power? Something not good.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

Little quote from Kirkbride;

They cannot be understood. They are the Other and they hate everything that even smells like mortality.

Can't say Bethesda will go the Thalmor-destroy-everything route lorewise but the first sentence sounds reasonable.

I doubt they seek to destroy everything, but it is possible. They seek to recreate a new Merethic Era, and where people most likely get they want to deactivate the towers is probably from Mankar's dialogue. "Soon, very soon, the lines now blurred will be erased. Tamriel and Oblivion rejoined! The Mythic Age reborn!" Mythic Age being another name for the Merethic Era.

I'm not well versed in this area of lore, but from what I understand White-Gold Tower is the most powerful. Due to it being in the middle of Tamriel + several smaller towers around it like a wheel. If I remember correctly White-Gold can undo the damage or speed it up. We mainly see the Stormcloak supporters go on about the destruction of the world.

I have to wonder though, if they're so concerned about Nirn and what not. Why aren't they aiding the side that A) knows about the power and B) controls the tower.

Instead it is all death to the Empire. Even if you don't like what they've been doing, better the Empire remains strong together. Cause when they fall, pl*** hits the fan. What happened when it fell during the Second Era? Nearly sucked into Oblivion. What happened if it fell during the Third Era? Sucked into Oblivion.

What happens if it falls during the Fourth Era, while the Aldmeri Dominion remain the major power? Something not good.

I think Mankar means the Dawn Era when he says Mythic age. He's not really an Elven patriot, letting Dagon rule the world isn't going to put elves back on top. The Thalmor most likely favour the Aedra (Auriel).

I read a bit more about this, and White-Gold is special because the city is shaped like the Wheel, but there also seems to be a lot of evidence that its deactivated. It's probable stones (either the Amulet of Kings or a line of Dragonborn Emporers) are destroyed. Also on Alduin's Wall: "When the White Tower falls."

I don't know where you're getting that it's only Stormcloaks who think the Thalmor are unmaking the world but ok.

Difference is Mede's aren't Dragonborn. No Amulet of Kings, and probably a deactivated White-Gold Tower.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I think Mankar means the Dawn Era when he says Mythic age. He's not really an Elven patriot, letting Dagon rule the world isn't going to put elves back on top. The Thalmor most likely favour the Aedra (Auriel).

The Dawn Era and Merethic Era share certain events, that make them similar. Though it is entirely possible he meant Dawn Era, he does make several mistakes in his dialogue. I'll just say he's insane.

I read a bit more about this, and White-Gold is special because the city is shaped like the Wheel, but there also seems to be a lot of evidence that its deactivated. It's probable stones (either the Amulet of Kings or a line of Dragonborn Emporers) are destroyed. Also on Alduin's Wall: "When the White Tower falls."

It still contains immense power, it was sought after by the fellow on Umbriel. The evidence it is deactivated is sketchy at best, since the tower falling can mean even for an instant. When Martin shattered the Amulet of Kings, it caused the tower to function without the needing of the stone. One could argue the great statue in the Temple of the One formed by the avatar of Akatosh, has become the stone or removed it's need.

Edit: I believe in the novels it is mentioned or hinted at, White-Gold Tower could create or be turned into a great weapon. Either way, we don't want the Thalmor getting their dirty elven hands on it again.

Difference is Mede's aren't Dragonborn. No Amulet of Kings, and probably a deactivated White-Gold Tower.

Mede's don't need to be Dragonborn, Martin sacrificed himself and shattered the Amulet to take on the form of Akatosh. Removes the need for a Dragonborn ruler, forever.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Another reason to be pro-Stormclaoks (if you're a Thalmor sympathizer);

If Ulfric managed to become High King by challenge, the Thalmor could just send one of their minions over (of course he's gotta be a Nord and not show his true allegiance) and celebrate the new King. Unless of course shortly after he takes over a few Jarls and strong people have the same idea and everything turns to one big fight.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I think Ulfric answers his fate best.

"True, I may meet my end in a dark alley with a dagger in my back."

 

[DrunkenMage]

The people who did that are bleeding hearts, I can assure you that no one I know cared about that fool

He died like a bitch.

He was caught because he was within proximity of the Stormcloaks not because he was stealing a horse, he just happened to be doing so

He was snatched up in the same ambush, but given that they know his name and where he is from. Chances are likely they know he is a horse thief if they questioned him, which explains a reason as to why they could execute him. The other reason is they assumed he was with the Stormcloaks.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I think Ulfric answers his fate best.

"True, I may meet my end in a dark alley with a dagger in my back."

Was amusing when I had a guard patrolling near Ulfric's bedroom tell me this:

"Psst. Hey, I know who you are. Hail Sithis!"

Back onto the topic.

While at Windhelm the Stormcloaks told me if I was an Imperial Spy, I best turn around now... Best counter espionage ever.

"Imperial spies are everywhere. Never forget that..."

"Those Imperial bastards are spying on every one of us."

"I found out about all the Imperial spies crawling around Falkreath. A few well-placed bribes, and they bought themselves some friends."

"Mind what you say! The Empire has ears all over this town."

"Damn Imperial spies..."

"There have been multiple attempts on the Jarl's life. We're not certain if it's the Dark Brotherhood or simply Imperial sympathizers. We've also had run-ins with spies attempting to probe our security for weaknesses."

Looks like the Empire is doing to Skyrim what the Thalmor were in Cyrodiil during the novels.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

I think Ulfric answers his fate best.

"True, I may meet my end in a dark alley with a dagger in my back."

Was amusing when I had a guard patrolling near Ulfric's bedroom tell me this:

"Psst. Hey, I know who you are. Hail Sithis!"

Back onto the topic.

While at Windhelm the Stormcloaks told me if I was an Imperial Spy, I best turn around now... Best counter espionage ever.

"Imperial spies are everywhere. Never forget that..."

"Those Imperial bastards are spying on every one of us."

"I found out about all the Imperial spies crawling around Falkreath. A few well-placed bribes, and they bought themselves some friends."

"Mind what you say! The Empire has ears all over this town."

"Damn Imperial spies..."

"There have been multiple attempts on the Jarl's life. We're not certain if it's the Dark Brotherhood or simply Imperial sympathizers. We've also had run-ins with spies attempting to probe our security for weaknesses."

Looks like the Empire is doing to Skyrim what the Thalmor were in Cyrodiil during the novels.

Ulfric is no push over. Skilled in the Thu'um and as a warrior. I mean if the Thalmor really wanted him dead they could do it but that goes for anyone.

Those are amusing examples but I can also waltz into Castle Dour sporting my bear hat and no one seems to mind.