Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[TheQahnaarin]

I think Mankar means the Dawn Era when he says Mythic age. He's not really an Elven patriot, letting Dagon rule the world isn't going to put elves back on top. The Thalmor most likely favour the Aedra (Auriel).

The Dawn Era and Merethic Era share certain events, that make them similar. Though it is entirely possible he meant Dawn Era, he does make several mistakes in his dialogue. I'll just say he's insane.

I read a bit more about this, and White-Gold is special because the city is shaped like the Wheel, but there also seems to be a lot of evidence that its deactivated. It's probable stones (either the Amulet of Kings or a line of Dragonborn Emporers) are destroyed. Also on Alduin's Wall: "When the White Tower falls."

It still contains immense power, it was sought after by the fellow on Umbriel. The evidence it is deactivated is sketchy at best, since the tower falling can mean even for an instant. When Martin shattered the Amulet of Kings, it caused the tower to function without the needing of the stone. One could argue the great statue in the Temple of the One formed by the avatar of Akatosh, has become the stone or removed it's need.

Edit: I believe in the novels it is mentioned or hinted at, White-Gold Tower could create or be turned into a great weapon. Either way, we don't want the Thalmor getting their dirty elven hands on it again.

Difference is Mede's aren't Dragonborn. No Amulet of Kings, and probably a deactivated White-Gold Tower.

Mede's don't need to be Dragonborn, Martin sacrificed himself and shattered the Amulet to take on the form of Akatosh. Removes the need for a Dragonborn ruler, forever.

Not nessacarily insane, you do have to really to think about some of the stuff he says. Let's just agree he means a very early age, and if he does mean Merethic, it's not because he wants what the Thalmor want.

I regrettably haven't read the novels but I'm guessing going for the White-Gold Tower may also have something to do with overthrowing the Empire. There is hardly any info on the novels on UESP so I could be completely wrong.

Regardless, I don't see how holding on to Skyrim will help the Empire control the Tower in the short-term.

I mean there's nothing all that special about the Medes, and it doesn't need to be them. Better than not to be Dragonborn anyway.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Ulfric is no push over. Skilled in the Thu'um and as a warrior. I mean if the Thalmor really wanted him dead they could do it but that goes for anyone.

He dies 50% of the time. So if you're going Stormcloak, I wouldn't rely on him leading you. Hopefully you like another Stormcloak Jarl enough to be your High King.

Those are amusing examples but I can also waltz into Castle Dour sporting my bear hat and no one seems to mind.

I can walk into Windhelm wearing Thalmor Justiciar robes, have some lunch at Ulfric's table and speak with the Priests of Talos, that is just game mechanics. Those dialogue examples are the "living world" aspect. What goes on that isn't limited by game mechanics.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Not nessacarily insane, you do have to really to think about some of the stuff he says. Let's just agree he means a very early age, and if he does mean Merethic, it's not because he wants what the Thalmor want.

Never said he wants what the Thalmor want. I mentioned the dialogue as how some people get the theory about the Thalmor wanting to take out the towers.

I regrettably haven't read the novels but I'm guessing going for the White-Gold Tower may also have something to do with overthrowing the Empire. There is hardly any info on the novels on UESP so I could be completely wrong.

He didn't care about the Empire, or even thought about overthrowing it. He was after the tower's power, the Empire being in the way was just an annoyance, he sent letters saying they could all leave the city.

Regardless, I don't see how holding on to Skyrim will help the Empire control the Tower in the short-term.

Skyrim is important, not only the strategic gains but the symbol Skyrim represents. The Stormcloak rebellion, could cause the Empire to collapse. Colovia would probably break off if Skyrim left, then problems would happen if Cyrodiil were to be split in two.

Skyrim and Cyrodiil could probably descend into infighting, then where would we be? Take away Ulfric and your Jarls will not agree, they all have different views on how things are done. They followed Ulfric's strength and charisma. Take away Skyrim and you can cause a chain reaction.

I mean there's nothing all that special about the Medes, and it doesn't need to be them. Better than not to be Dragonborn anyway.

You're right, there isn't anything special about them. They're just men, they're not legendary mythic figures or descended from the God Talos. That makes them special, they were the only non-Dragonblood Dynasty ever endorsed by the Nords of Skyrim.

I have a soft spot for them, since I love Titus Mede the First. This wasn’t court, and the Emperor wasn’t dressed for it. He wore a plain Colovian soldier’s tunic of dark gray wool and leather breeks. His crown was a plain gold circlet. A broadsword in a battered scabbard hung at his side. Two soldiers stood yards away, but Colin suspected that if he tried anything, he would be dead at Mede’s hand before either of them could move.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

Ulfric is no push over. Skilled in the Thu'um and as a warrior. I mean if the Thalmor really wanted him dead they could do it but that goes for anyone.

He dies 50% of the time. So if you're going Stormcloak, I wouldn't rely on him leading you. Hopefully you like another Stormcloak Jarl enough to be your High King.

Those are amusing examples but I can also waltz into Castle Dour sporting my bear hat and no one seems to mind.

I can walk into Windhelm wearing Thalmor Justiciar robes, have some lunch at Ulfric's table and speak with the Priests of Talos, that is just game mechanics. Those dialogue examples are the "living world" aspect. What goes on that isn't limited by game mechanics.

The 50% he does die its at the hands of two veteran Legionaires and the most powerful person to walk the planet for at least 200 years.

What's Bethesda supposed to do? Have parts of Windhelm off limits? A guard telling you to turn around if you're a spy and you walking past him is no different than him hailing Sithis a step away from a Jarl.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

Not nessacarily insane, you do have to really to think about some of the stuff he says. Let's just agree he means a very early age, and if he does mean Merethic, it's not because he wants what the Thalmor want.

Never said he wants what the Thalmor want. I mentioned the dialogue as how some people get the theory about the Thalmor wanting to take out the towers.

I regrettably haven't read the novels but I'm guessing going for the White-Gold Tower may also have something to do with overthrowing the Empire. There is hardly any info on the novels on UESP so I could be completely wrong.

He didn't care about the Empire, or even thought about overthrowing it. He was after the tower's power, the Empire being in the way was just an annoyance, he sent letters saying they could all leave the city.

Regardless, I don't see how holding on to Skyrim will help the Empire control the Tower in the short-term.

Skyrim is important, not only the strategic gains but the symbol Skyrim represents. The Stormcloak rebellion, could cause the Empire to collapse. Colovia would probably break off if Skyrim left, then problems would happen if Cyrodiil were to be split in two.

Skyrim and Cyrodiil could probably descend into infighting, then where would we be? Take away Ulfric and your Jarls will not agree, they all have different views on how things are done. They followed Ulfric's strength and charisma. Take away Skyrim and you can cause a chain reaction.

I mean there's nothing all that special about the Medes, and it doesn't need to be them. Better than not to be Dragonborn anyway.

You're right, there isn't anything special about them. They're just men, they're not legendary mythic figures or descended from the God Talos. That makes them special, they were the only non-Dragonblood Dynasty ever endorsed by the Nords of Skyrim.

I have a soft spot for them, since I love Titus Mede the First. This wasn’t court, and the Emperor wasn’t dressed for it. He wore a plain Colovian soldier’s tunic of dark gray wool and leather breeks. His crown was a plain gold circlet. A broadsword in a battered scabbard hung at his side. Two soldiers stood yards away, but Colin suspected that if he tried anything, he would be dead at Mede’s hand before either of them could move.

I think most people get it from out of game and Kirkbride stuff. It also aligns with the central point of Elven religion: mortality is a curse, and the purpose of life is to surpass those who created you. The Thalmor, being Elven supremacists, would go back to being gods if they could. I'm not totally sold on this theory, but they are great antagonists, and most great TES antagonists eventually take a run at destroying/remaking the world.

Well maybe the Umbriel fellow knew how to reactivate it, or he wanted his hands on the Elder Scrolls inside. Still I haven't read the novels so I'll take your word for it.

No one in Cyrodiil takes the rebellion seriously, and in Oblivion there's not a lot of respect for Nords. Maybe once upon a time Skyrim was a big deal for Imperials but they don't seem much appreciated recently.

Ulfric couldn't care less about the Empire beyond Skyrim. I can't picture war between them under almost any circumstance. If Ulfric were killed the other Jarls will still have been following his orders and will be more or less aligned. And it will be hard for the Jarls to fight each other considering their forces are Ulfric's, so the armies continue to stay loyal to Galmar or whoevers second in command. Ulfric's heir may not be too far off either.

Evidently losing Hammerfell, Morrowind, Elsewyr, Valenwood, Summerset or Black Marsh and briefly Leyawiin and Bravil wasn't that big a deal.

For sure, Titus the First was great, took the Imperial City with only a few men, told the Elder Council to screw off, the Nords loved him. But other than that, meh. Titus the Second, well you can probably guess what I didn't like about him.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The 50% he does die its at the hands of two veteran Legionaires and the most powerful person to walk the planet for at least 200 years.

The 50% when Tullius dies is at the hands of two veteran Legionaries younger than him, one of which is an ex Greybeard and then the "most powerful person to walk the planet for at least 200 years". Guess that makes Tullius more OP than Ulfric?

One theory about Talos says a single Breton Nightblade slit his throat, and killed his Emperor. Ulfric dying isn't that hard, him being assassinated isn't hard either. Stronger Thu'um users have been killed.

What's Bethesda supposed to do? Have parts of Windhelm off limits? A guard telling you to turn around if you're a spy and you walking past him is no different than him hailing Sithis a step away from a Jarl.

You said you can walk into Castle Dour and no one cares, that is game mechanics. The guard saying if I was a spy/the Hail Sithis thing wasn't an argument point, but more of a joke. I'd think you'd give me some more credit than thinking I'd be trying to use that as a serious argument.

The dialogue after that was the main point.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I think most people get it from out of game and Kirkbride stuff. It also aligns with the central point of Elven religion: mortality is a curse, and the purpose of life is to surpass those who created you. The Thalmor, being Elven supremacists, would go back to being gods if they could. I'm not totally sold on this theory, but they are great antagonists, and most great TES antagonists eventually take a run at destroying/remaking the world.

At the moment they view themselves as the true rulers of Tamriel.

No one in Cyrodiil takes the rebellion seriously, and in Oblivion there's not a lot of respect for Nords. Maybe once upon a time Skyrim was a big deal for Imperials but they don't seem much appreciated recently.

No one in Cyrodiil takes the rebellion seriously? Do you have a quote for that? It was serious enough to send the Emperor's go-to General personally, serious enough to divert resources, serious enough to prepare a secondary force to march through Pale Pass. It will get a lot more serious when the Emperor is found dead in the province, and Vici's death is blamed on the Stormcloaks.

There wasn't a lot of respect for Imperials by the Nords, who consider them too religious always going on about the Divines and going to Church and working constantly. Every province we've had a game in, many natives think they're better. You're telling me some Nords of Skyrim don't think they're better than Cyrodiil or High Rock?

Doesn't mean if the province was to break off it wouldn't cause problems.

Ulfric couldn't care less about the Empire beyond Skyrim. I can't picture war between them under almost any circumstance.

"If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms." - Ulfric Stormcloak

If Ulfric were killed the other Jarls will still have been following his orders and will be more or less aligned. And it will be hard for the Jarls to fight each other considering their forces are Ulfric's, so the armies continue to stay loyal to Galmar or whoevers second in command. Ulfric's heir may not be too far off either.

The Jarls follow the strong, and their forces are still their forces. Just many were conscripted into the Stormcloaks. How would it be hard to fight each other? Many would go rogue with their Officers, who believe they should lead. Galmar dies 50% of the time too.

Even Legion Generals are considered a threat during times of Imperial succession.

Evidently losing Hammerfell, Morrowind, Elsewyr, Valenwood, Summerset or Black Marsh and briefly Leyawiin and Bravil wasn't that big a deal.

Losing Hammerfell was a big deal, losing Morrowind not so much since it was already ruined, Valenwood was a big deal and they tried to reclaim it supporting rebels, Summerset Isle was a big deal since it allowed the Thalmor rise to power. Black Marsh wasn't, it was mainly used as a prison.

You're throwing out provinces and cities. Yet none of them are what Skyrim is, the strong arm of the Empire. The province that was there from day one, the province which most likely acts as the glue to hold it all together.

"We need the Empire, as much as it needs us. We Nords are the Empire! Our blood built it. Our blood sustains it!"

For sure, Titus the First was great, took the Imperial City with only a few men, told the Elder Council to screw off, the Nords loved him. But other than that, meh. Titus the Second, well you can probably guess what I didn't like about him.

I think Titus II did well with what he had. Without him there wouldn't be an Empire left.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

The 50% he does die its at the hands of two veteran Legionaires and the most powerful person to walk the planet for at least 200 years.

The 50% when Tullius dies is at the hands of two veteran Legionaries younger than him, one of which is an ex Greybeard and then the "most powerful person to walk the planet for at least 200 years". Guess that makes Tullius more OP than Ulfric?

One theory about Talos says a single Breton Nightblade slit his throat, and killed his Emperor. Ulfric dying isn't that hard, him being assassinated isn't hard either. Stronger Thu'um users have been killed.

What's Bethesda supposed to do? Have parts of Windhelm off limits? A guard telling you to turn around if you're a spy and you walking past him is no different than him hailing Sithis a step away from a Jarl.

You said you can walk into Castle Dour and no one cares, that is game mechanics. The guard saying if I was a spy/the Hail Sithis thing wasn't an argument point, but more of a joke. I'd think you'd give me some more credit than thinking I'd be trying to use that as a serious argument.

The dialogue after that was the main point.

Tullius and Ulfric both know the fights are over before it begins in the Battles for Solitude/Windhelm. They're exhausted, and there's nothing left to fight for at that point. The Dragonborn tips the scales anyway.

Assuming it's true, give the Breton some credit, it probably wasn't someone plucked off the streets. And I'm sure Talos never got much of a chance to defend himself either. But if Reman III, Pelagius I, Uriel VII and Titus II can all get assassinated, anyone can. But as for the people who say any random Nord can head up to Windhelm and challenge Ulfric and be High King, like I said, he's certainly no push over.

I know it was a joke, but it seems like you want all the Windhelm guards to like stop you in the streets and pat you down or something. The following dialogue you listed shows they're aware of spies, and therefore must have discovered at least a few spies before that point. "We've intercepted couriers from Solitude, the Empire is putting a great deal of pressure on Whiterun."

It's not like the spies are beating them at every turn.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

I think most people get it from out of game and Kirkbride stuff. It also aligns with the central point of Elven religion: mortality is a curse, and the purpose of life is to surpass those who created you. The Thalmor, being Elven supremacists, would go back to being gods if they could. I'm not totally sold on this theory, but they are great antagonists, and most great TES antagonists eventually take a run at destroying/remaking the world.

At the moment they view themselves as the true rulers of Tamriel.

No one in Cyrodiil takes the rebellion seriously, and in Oblivion there's not a lot of respect for Nords. Maybe once upon a time Skyrim was a big deal for Imperials but they don't seem much appreciated recently.

No one in Cyrodiil takes the rebellion seriously? Do you have a quote for that? It was serious enough to send the Emperor's go-to General personally, serious enough to divert resources, serious enough to prepare a secondary force to march through Pale Pass. It will get a lot more serious when the Emperor is found dead in the province, and Vici's death is blamed on the Stormcloaks.

There wasn't a lot of respect for Imperials by the Nords, who consider them too religious always going on about the Divines and going to Church and working constantly. Every province we've had a game in, many natives think they're better. You're telling me some Nords of Skyrim don't think they're better than Cyrodiil or High Rock?

Doesn't mean if the province was to break off it wouldn't cause problems.

Ulfric couldn't care less about the Empire beyond Skyrim. I can't picture war between them under almost any circumstance.

"If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms." - Ulfric Stormcloak

If Ulfric were killed the other Jarls will still have been following his orders and will be more or less aligned. And it will be hard for the Jarls to fight each other considering their forces are Ulfric's, so the armies continue to stay loyal to Galmar or whoevers second in command. Ulfric's heir may not be too far off either.

The Jarls follow the strong, and their forces are still their forces. Just many were conscripted into the Stormcloaks. How would it be hard to fight each other? Many would go rogue with their Officers, who believe they should lead. Galmar dies 50% of the time too.

Even Legion Generals are considered a threat during times of Imperial succession.

Evidently losing Hammerfell, Morrowind, Elsewyr, Valenwood, Summerset or Black Marsh and briefly Leyawiin and Bravil wasn't that big a deal.

Losing Hammerfell was a big deal, losing Morrowind not so much since it was already ruined, Valenwood was a big deal and they tried to reclaim it supporting rebels, Summerset Isle was a big deal since it allowed the Thalmor rise to power. Black Marsh wasn't, it was mainly used as a prison.

You're throwing out provinces and cities. Yet none of them are what Skyrim is, the strong arm of the Empire. The province that was there from day one, the province which most likely acts as the glue to hold it all together.

"We need the Empire, as much as it needs us. We Nords are the Empire! Our blood built it. Our blood sustains it!"

For sure, Titus the First was great, took the Imperial City with only a few men, told the Elder Council to screw off, the Nords loved him. But other than that, meh. Titus the Second, well you can probably guess what I didn't like about him.

I think Titus II did well with what he had. Without him there wouldn't be an Empire left.

Exactly, and for the Towers theory it would require them to rule Tamriel first.

Foreigners as well as a few locals in Skyrim don't take it seriously. It's just a "petty politcal power struggle". And Hadvar isn't suprised no one in Cyrodiil is familiar with it when you ask him about it. Hadvar says Tullius wasn't even there for the start of the war so maybe the Empire has just started to take it seriously, but what else would Tullius be doing at the moment? If war breaks out with the Dominion, just recall him. Plenty of Imperials and you yourself have said numerous times the war is just a sideshow, not really worthy of the Empire's time. Not all that respectful for the men and women dying for their homeland and religion to call their struggle "a sideshow" if you ask me. Isn't there proof the Dark Brotherhood does it? Wouldnt they claim responsibility or people would just put 2 and 2 together after?

No one in Oblivion ever had anything bad to say about Redguards or Bretons as far as I can remember.

That quote proves he doesn't want to fight Cyrodiil, and when the war breaks out they'll be on the same side. Any circumstance that's Skyrim's doing, that is. Ulfric sure won't be marching on Cyrodiil anytime soon, there's nothing to gain from it. Could we trust you Imperials?

The fifty percent Galmar dies, Ulfric also does so that's irrelevant. I'm sure the Jarls wouldn't want another civil war, and the armies would be way to divided for anyone to be able to accomplish anything. And again, Ulfric's heir wouldn't be too far off, especially since he acknowledges the danger he faces as High King.

A former Legionaire in Oblivion:
"With every word you speak you're just proving me right, Nord. Your kind has contributed nothing to our Empire and never will!"
Obviously not true, but it is what a Legionaire living in Cyrodiil thinks of "the strong arm of the Empire."

We could argue for days about Titus II. He'll end being almost as controversial as Ulfric. You could also blame his predecessors for allowing the Empire to descend to the state it did. Other than Titus I there's not a lot to love.

 

[Ancano]

I think most people get it from out of game and Kirkbride stuff. It also aligns with the central point of Elven religion: mortality is a curse, and the purpose of life is to surpass those who created you. The Thalmor, being Elven supremacists, would go back to being gods if they could. I'm not totally sold on this theory, but they are great antagonists, and most great TES antagonists eventually take a run at destroying/remaking the world.

At the moment they view themselves as the true rulers of Tamriel.

No one in Cyrodiil takes the rebellion seriously, and in Oblivion there's not a lot of respect for Nords. Maybe once upon a time Skyrim was a big deal for Imperials but they don't seem much appreciated recently.

No one in Cyrodiil takes the rebellion seriously? Do you have a quote for that? It was serious enough to send the Emperor's go-to General personally, serious enough to divert resources, serious enough to prepare a secondary force to march through Pale Pass. It will get a lot more serious when the Emperor is found dead in the province, and Vici's death is blamed on the Stormcloaks.

There wasn't a lot of respect for Imperials by the Nords, who consider them too religious always going on about the Divines and going to Church and working constantly. Every province we've had a game in, many natives think they're better. You're telling me some Nords of Skyrim don't think they're better than Cyrodiil or High Rock?

Doesn't mean if the province was to break off it wouldn't cause problems.

Ulfric couldn't care less about the Empire beyond Skyrim. I can't picture war between them under almost any circumstance.

"If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms." - Ulfric Stormcloak

If Ulfric were killed the other Jarls will still have been following his orders and will be more or less aligned. And it will be hard for the Jarls to fight each other considering their forces are Ulfric's, so the armies continue to stay loyal to Galmar or whoevers second in command. Ulfric's heir may not be too far off either.

The Jarls follow the strong, and their forces are still their forces. Just many were conscripted into the Stormcloaks. How would it be hard to fight each other? Many would go rogue with their Officers, who believe they should lead. Galmar dies 50% of the time too.

Even Legion Generals are considered a threat during times of Imperial succession.

Evidently losing Hammerfell, Morrowind, Elsewyr, Valenwood, Summerset or Black Marsh and briefly Leyawiin and Bravil wasn't that big a deal.

Losing Hammerfell was a big deal, losing Morrowind not so much since it was already ruined, Valenwood was a big deal and they tried to reclaim it supporting rebels, Summerset Isle was a big deal since it allowed the Thalmor rise to power. Black Marsh wasn't, it was mainly used as a prison.

You're throwing out provinces and cities. Yet none of them are what Skyrim is, the strong arm of the Empire. The province that was there from day one, the province which most likely acts as the glue to hold it all together.

"We need the Empire, as much as it needs us. We Nords are the Empire! Our blood built it. Our blood sustains it!"

For sure, Titus the First was great, took the Imperial City with only a few men, told the Elder Council to screw off, the Nords loved him. But other than that, meh. Titus the Second, well you can probably guess what I didn't like about him.

I think Titus II did well with what he had. Without him there wouldn't be an Empire left.

Exactly, and for the Towers theory it would require them to rule Tamriel first.

Foreigners as well as a few locals in Skyrim don't take it seriously. It's just a "petty politcal power struggle". And Hadvar isn't suprised no one in Cyrodiil is familiar with it when you ask him about it. Hadvar says Tullius wasn't even there for the start of the war so maybe the Empire has just started to take it seriously, but what else would Tullius be doing at the moment? If war breaks out with the Dominion, just recall him. Plenty of Imperials and you yourself have said numerous times the war is just a sideshow, not really worthy of the Empire's time. Not all that respectful for the men and women dying for their homeland and religion to call their struggle "a sideshow" if you ask me. Isn't there proof the Dark Brotherhood does it? Wouldnt they claim responsibility or people would just put 2 and 2 together after?

No one in Oblivion ever had anything bad to say about Redguards or Bretons as far as I can remember.

That quote proves he doesn't want to fight Cyrodiil, and when the war breaks out they'll be on the same side. Any circumstance that's Skyrim's doing, that is. Ulfric sure won't be marching on Cyrodiil anytime soon, there's nothing to gain from it. Could we trust you Imperials?

The fifty percent Galmar dies, Ulfric also does so that's irrelevant. I'm sure the Jarls wouldn't want another civil war, and the armies would be way to divided for anyone to be able to accomplish anything. And again, Ulfric's heir wouldn't be too far off, especially since he acknowledges the danger he faces as High King.

A former Legionaire in Oblivion:
"With every word you speak you're just proving me right, Nord. Your kind has contributed nothing to our Empire and never will!"
Obviously not true, but it is what a Legionaire living in Cyrodiil thinks of "the strong arm of the Empire."

We could argue for days about Titus II. He'll end being almost as controversial as Ulfric. You could also blame his predecessors for allowing the Empire to descend to the state it did. Other than Titus I there's not a lot to love.

Alright now, don't make me brake out the violin again

Qahn, I say this... respectively... I wonder if you shouldn't relax, take a deep breath and think about what you said here. I mean, it's fine to fight for freedom, however shouldn't someone who is a "free-thinker" question everything?

You guys have it "entrenched" in your head that Ulfric is some kind of savior and a Freedom Fighter. You think after the war, everyone is going to have this "separate but equal" B$ going on and that suddenly once Skryim is free, everyone will become allies.

While I realize you will resist anything pro-Imperial and are passionate about your cause, I'm concerned you don't understand what has really been going on in Skyrim.

Gen Tully does. Make no mistake, he knows what's up. And as for the earlier discussion about Ulfric, rest assured he will serve the Dominion until the day he dies, even if he doesn't think he is doing so.

 

[cave812]

I dont think it matters what race you are when deciding whos in the right if you wanna RP someone whos wise in the way of the world. IRL Im neutral to all religions. historically religions always say "might = right. when you consider weather ulfric had the right to slay high king torrig, remember david slayed goliath because god was on his side. the gods were not on torrigs side, they said ulfric had the right to power. The moral of the story of david and goliath was that an armless, legless, blind, deaf and dumb peasant infant could conquer the world if its god's will. Nirn and its religions are based (partly) on real world people and pagan gods and demons.but torrig was a true nord, and had the potential to become a great king (if he had lived another 20-30 years), but tamriel was facing trying times, and skyrim didnt need a a king who would someday be great, Skryim needed powerful king ASAP since the empire had essentially abandoned them and the aldmeri dominion was trying to kill their main god. action was required and thats what ulfric delivered.
yeah, ulfric is arrogant and ambitious but if you think about it, we wouldnt even question weather ulfric is great and godly man, if there wasnt something special about him. So hate him or love him, the gods wouldnt allow him succeed if he didnt deserve it.

King david was arrogant and ambitious, but he was anointed by god

 

[Ancano]

I dont think it matters what race you are when deciding whos in the right if you wanna RP someone whos wise in the way of the world. IRL Im neutral to all religions. historically religions always say "might = right. when you consider weather ulfric had the right to slay high king torrig, remember david slayed goliath because god was on his side. the gods were not on torrigs side, they said ulfric had the right to power. The moral of the story of david and goliath was that an armless, legless, blind, deaf and dumb peasant infant could conquer the world if its god's will. Nirn and its religions are based (partly) on real world people and pagan gods and demons.but torrig was a true nord, and had the potential to become a great king (if he had lived another 20-30 years), but tamriel was facing trying times, and skyrim didnt need a a king who would someday be great, Skryim needed powerful king ASAP since the empire had essentially abandoned them and the aldmeri dominion was trying to kill their main god. action was required and thats what ulfric delivered.
yeah, ulfric is arrogant and ambitious but if you think about it, we wouldnt even question weather ulfric is great and godly man, if there wasnt something special about him. So hate him or love him, the gods wouldnt allow him succeed if he didnt deserve it.

King david was arrogant and ambitious, but he was anointed by god

Well now hold on, wait a sec here.

Alright.

What about Whiterun Hold? What about "The Reachmen's Kingdom" What about the Imperial citizens who want to stay with the Empire in the Imperial Holds?

Whiterun Hold already has Freedom of Speech AND Religion.

The Reach Kingdom has their own God(s).

The Imperial citizens who are supporting the Imperial Holds who worshiped Talos, were allowed to worship him privately by the Empire.

You're saying the Empire is standing in the way of God, not true. The Imperial Gov has wisely realized their little mistake with the Talos cult. However, the Imperials themselves were not arresting or harassing citizens who worshiped Talos.

Furthermore, on a more biased note, the false God "Talos" neither saved the Empire during the Oblivion crises nor did he save them during the Thalmor invasion. It was Akatosh and certain Deadric Princes who saved man. Who cared enough about their people to step in and do something.

Talos if he is a God, is only the God of a few like him. He is not for Nords or the common man who is lost, looking for guidance. Talos is like an Engineer who does not care unless you're someone who shares his passion(s). Perhaps everyone turning their back on Talos is a good thing after all. And it was God who saved David, Talos saved no one after he became a self-proclaimed God.

Tiber Septim raped and humiliated the Dominion. He had a good diplomatic option and instead chose to destroy us by pimping out an Elven Artifact, Numidium, which destroyed the Dominion and then used the Altmer, Bosmer and Khajit people's pain and suffering to exhalt himself to Godhood. Crippling their nations so they would no longer be a threat to the Empire by installing weak puppet-goverments and then left the Dominion to burn at the hands of Dagon's demons in order to protect Cyrodil and prob Skyrim and Highrock too. The human Provinces.

Wasn't enough that he threw Tamriel into war and chaos, humiliated the Dominion so that they would seek revenge and reparations later on, he had to be God too.

 

[cave812]

the 9 divines are the only true gods. thats a point of view, but its a fact that of all the people called "gods" agree on (exept the daedra, but the daedra are demons basicaly), the aedra (wich talos is the descendant of [all mortals are decended from aedra]) are definatly the most powerful (not counting sithis the enigma of unknown terrible power). Talos is not a self proclaimed god. akatosh recognizes Talos as a divine, just read to some of akatosh's quotes.

Tiber Septim caused chaos? he caused the greatest empire of all time, thats as lawful as Ive ever heard. And by the time of skyrim, every high elf who was around at the founding of the empire is long dead, and the summerset ilse benefited greatly from the empire, like everyone did up until the oblivion crisis. after benefiting from the empire for centuries, the aldmeri dominion betrayed the people who allowed them to prosper so long just because they could.

personaly I dont think there are gods in TES multiverse. there are people who reach Chim (look it up) and just start calling themselves gods. hell a powerful mage can call himself a god, and have just as much claim to the title as akatosh. Talos reached Chim.

 

[DrunkenMage]

"We've intercepted couriers from Solitude, the Empire is putting a great deal of pressure on Whiterun."

It's not like the spies are beating them at every turn.

Couriers are just soldiers running with messages, they're not spies. I'm not saying the spies are beating them at every turn, just that they're a large threat to them. Much like how the Thalmor were in the novels.

Foreigners as well as a few locals in Skyrim don't take it seriously. It's just a "petty politcal power struggle".

Many locals in Skyrim consider the war petty, others hope it stays far away. But, they're not Cyrodiil.

And Hadvar isn't suprised no one in Cyrodiil is familiar with it when you ask him about it.

Hadvar doesn't say they're not taking it seriously, just that they have other things to worry about. Cyrodiil was dealing with it's own problems for a long time.

Hadvar says Tullius wasn't even there for the start of the war so maybe the Empire has just started to take it seriously, but what else would Tullius be doing at the moment? If war breaks out with the Dominion, just recall him.

Tullius arrived a few months ago, shortly after Torygg's death. The Empire wasn't paying attention when Ulfric was trying to rally people. "few months ago he murdered the High King! That got the Empire's attention."

Tullius is sent to places that need fixing.

Plenty of Imperials and you yourself have said numerous times the war is just a sideshow, not really worthy of the Empire's time. Not all that respectful for the men and women dying for their homeland and religion to call their struggle "a sideshow" if you ask me.

"Before we wage war upon our foes, we must wage a war against our lesser selves."

You Stormcloaks share the same view... The Civil War is a sideshow before the main event.

Isn't there proof the Dark Brotherhood does it? Wouldnt they claim responsibility or people would just put 2 and 2 together after?

Vici is blamed on the Stormcloaks, and a letter is discovered about a Stormcloak plot to kill the Emperor. Dark Brotherhood has to be hired by someone, so when they're revealed it is after the fake plot has been discovered. It is a good way to blame the Thalmor too, since the Empire believes they're behind the unrest in Skyrim.

No one in Oblivion ever had anything bad to say about Redguards or Bretons as far as I can remember.

Depends on how much they like you.

That quote proves he doesn't want to fight Cyrodiil, and when the war breaks out they'll be on the same side. Any circumstance that's Skyrim's doing, that is. Ulfric sure won't be marching on Cyrodiil anytime soon, there's nothing to gain from it. Could we trust you Imperials?

That quote proves there will be problems if someone in the royal line is killed. And they are, you're blamed on at least one death. Motierre and the Elder Council would try to put blame far away from them. So chances are either Stormcloaks or Thalmor get the blame and the Empire goes to war.

You can trust the Imperials will get fired up, they'll be calling for war against someone.

The fifty percent Galmar dies, Ulfric also does so that's irrelevant. I'm sure the Jarls wouldn't want another civil war, and the armies would be way to divided for anyone to be able to accomplish anything. And again, Ulfric's heir wouldn't be too far off, especially since he acknowledges the danger he faces as High King.

Don't expect an heir, or Ulfric/Galmar/Tullius/Rikke to survive. The war hasn't ended, even after you kill Ulfric and Tullius it is still going on.

A former Legionaire in Oblivion:
"With every word you speak you're just proving me right, Nord. Your kind has contributed nothing to our Empire and never will!"
Obviously not true, but it is what a Legionaire living in Cyrodiil thinks of "the strong arm of the Empire."

He's a Redguard, but that is one man. He hates Nords because he's lost a lot of friends to Nord raiding parties against the Legion Forts. There are Nords who hate other Nords in Oblivion, especially the ones who get drunk a lot. Saying they give us a bad name.

We could argue for days about Titus II. He'll end being almost as controversial as Ulfric. You could also blame his predecessors for allowing the Empire to descend to the state it did. Other than Titus I there's not a lot to love.

The Emperor only has the power of Veto in Imperial politics. It is hard to just blame one man out of the hundreds who all have a role in what weakened the Empire prior to the Great War

 

[Ancano]

the 9 divines are the only true gods. thats a point of view, but its a fact that of all the people called "gods" agree on (exept the daedra, but the daedra are demons basicaly), the aedra (wich talos is the descendant of [all mortals are decended from aedra]) are definatly the most powerful (not counting sithis the enigma of unknown terrible power). Talos is not a self proclaimed god. akatosh recognizes Talos as a divine, just read to some of akatosh's quotes.

Tiber Septim caused chaos? he caused the greatest empire of all time, thats as lawful as Ive ever heard. And by the time of skyrim, every high elf who was around at the founding of the empire is long dead, and the summerset ilse benefited greatly from the empire, like everyone did up until the oblivion crisis. after benefiting from the empire for centuries, the aldmeri dominion betrayed the people who allowed them to prosper so long just because they could.

personaly I dont think there are gods in TES multiverse. there are people who reach Chim (look it up) and just start calling themselves gods. hell a powerful mage can call himself a god, and have just as much claim to the title as akatosh. Talos reached Chim.

I would not go so far to say Talos was descended of Aedra. That's a quantum leap and laughable. There are 8 divines, 3 and 5.

Tiber Septim was rewarded with God status for conquering Tamriel. Strength of arms and conquest does not determine what is right.

Akatosh and certain of the Daedra have acted as Tamriel's "benefactors". Ministers of truth and protecting the people.

Tiber Septim was notably different in that he was purely offensive towards all of this enemies. Even aborted his unborn child to Barenziah.

Tiber Septim was good at two things: Politics and looking out for self.

 

[cave812]

aedra means: kin
daedra mean: not kin
everyone youve ever met in TES is the descendant of aedra. and when it comes to talos' morality, Gods are above morality

 

[TheQahnaarin]

At the moment they view themselves as the true rulers of Tamriel.

No one in Cyrodiil takes the rebellion seriously? Do you have a quote for that? It was serious enough to send the Emperor's go-to General personally, serious enough to divert resources, serious enough to prepare a secondary force to march through Pale Pass. It will get a lot more serious when the Emperor is found dead in the province, and Vici's death is blamed on the Stormcloaks.

There wasn't a lot of respect for Imperials by the Nords, who consider them too religious always going on about the Divines and going to Church and working constantly. Every province we've had a game in, many natives think they're better. You're telling me some Nords of Skyrim don't think they're better than Cyrodiil or High Rock?

Doesn't mean if the province was to break off it wouldn't cause problems.

"If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms." - Ulfric Stormcloak

The Jarls follow the strong, and their forces are still their forces. Just many were conscripted into the Stormcloaks. How would it be hard to fight each other? Many would go rogue with their Officers, who believe they should lead. Galmar dies 50% of the time too.

Even Legion Generals are considered a threat during times of Imperial succession.

Losing Hammerfell was a big deal, losing Morrowind not so much since it was already ruined, Valenwood was a big deal and they tried to reclaim it supporting rebels, Summerset Isle was a big deal since it allowed the Thalmor rise to power. Black Marsh wasn't, it was mainly used as a prison.

You're throwing out provinces and cities. Yet none of them are what Skyrim is, the strong arm of the Empire. The province that was there from day one, the province which most likely acts as the glue to hold it all together.

"We need the Empire, as much as it needs us. We Nords are the Empire! Our blood built it. Our blood sustains it!"

I think Titus II did well with what he had. Without him there wouldn't be an Empire left.

Exactly, and for the Towers theory it would require them to rule Tamriel first.

Foreigners as well as a few locals in Skyrim don't take it seriously. It's just a "petty politcal power struggle". And Hadvar isn't suprised no one in Cyrodiil is familiar with it when you ask him about it. Hadvar says Tullius wasn't even there for the start of the war so maybe the Empire has just started to take it seriously, but what else would Tullius be doing at the moment? If war breaks out with the Dominion, just recall him. Plenty of Imperials and you yourself have said numerous times the war is just a sideshow, not really worthy of the Empire's time. Not all that respectful for the men and women dying for their homeland and religion to call their struggle "a sideshow" if you ask me. Isn't there proof the Dark Brotherhood does it? Wouldnt they claim responsibility or people would just put 2 and 2 together after?

No one in Oblivion ever had anything bad to say about Redguards or Bretons as far as I can remember.

That quote proves he doesn't want to fight Cyrodiil, and when the war breaks out they'll be on the same side. Any circumstance that's Skyrim's doing, that is. Ulfric sure won't be marching on Cyrodiil anytime soon, there's nothing to gain from it. Could we trust you Imperials?

The fifty percent Galmar dies, Ulfric also does so that's irrelevant. I'm sure the Jarls wouldn't want another civil war, and the armies would be way to divided for anyone to be able to accomplish anything. And again, Ulfric's heir wouldn't be too far off, especially since he acknowledges the danger he faces as High King.

A former Legionaire in Oblivion:
"With every word you speak you're just proving me right, Nord. Your kind has contributed nothing to our Empire and never will!"
Obviously not true, but it is what a Legionaire living in Cyrodiil thinks of "the strong arm of the Empire."

We could argue for days about Titus II. He'll end being almost as controversial as Ulfric. You could also blame his predecessors for allowing the Empire to descend to the state it did. Other than Titus I there's not a lot to love.

Alright now, don't make me brake out the violin again

Qahn, I say this... respectively... I wonder if you shouldn't relax, take a deep breath and think about what you said here. I mean, it's fine to fight for freedom, however shouldn't someone who is a "free-thinker" question everything?

You guys have it "entrenched" in your head that Ulfric is some kind of savior and a Freedom Fighter. You think after the war, everyone is going to have this "separate but equal" B$ going on and that suddenly once Skryim is free, everyone will become allies.

While I realize you will resist anything pro-Imperial and are passionate about your cause, I'm concerned you don't understand what has really been going on in Skyrim.

Gen Tully does. Make no mistake, he knows what's up. And as for the earlier discussion about Ulfric, rest assured he will serve the Dominion until the day he dies, even if he doesn't think he is doing so.

I've fought for both sides and never once just for variety's sake. I've gone back and forth on the civil war plenty of times, I even see where the Dominion is coming from at times. I just feel the Stormcloaks were the right choice after a while.

I could say you're also entrenched in your ways, clinging to a dying Empire (or if you favour the Dominion, I can't really tell but then that's a whole other thing) while the world around you evolves. I could say I'm concerned you don't understand what's happening within the Empire right now.

Sheesh, some of you glance at the dossier, see the word "asset" and throw the book down and start losing it. If you care to read to the end you may find:
"A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided."

 

[DrunkenMage]

Sheesh, some of you glance at the dossier, see the word "asset" and throw the book down and start losing it. If you care to read to the end you may find:
"A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided."

We're both assets.

 

[cave812]

really, the dragonborn need to take control, and dominate all of nirn. if anyone can do it the dragonborn can

 

[TheQahnaarin]

"We've intercepted couriers from Solitude, the Empire is putting a great deal of pressure on Whiterun."

It's not like the spies are beating them at every turn.

Couriers are just soldiers running with messages, they're not spies. I'm not saying the spies are beating them at every turn, just that they're a large threat to them. Much like how the Thalmor were in the novels.

Foreigners as well as a few locals in Skyrim don't take it seriously. It's just a "petty politcal power struggle".

Many locals in Skyrim consider the war petty, others hope it stays far away. But, they're not Cyrodiil.

And Hadvar isn't suprised no one in Cyrodiil is familiar with it when you ask him about it.

Hadvar doesn't say they're not taking it seriously, just that they have other things to worry about. Cyrodiil was dealing with it's own problems for a long time.

Hadvar says Tullius wasn't even there for the start of the war so maybe the Empire has just started to take it seriously, but what else would Tullius be doing at the moment? If war breaks out with the Dominion, just recall him.

Tullius arrived a few months ago, shortly after Torygg's death. The Empire wasn't paying attention when Ulfric was trying to rally people. "few months ago he murdered the High King! That got the Empire's attention."

Tullius is sent to places that need fixing.

Plenty of Imperials and you yourself have said numerous times the war is just a sideshow, not really worthy of the Empire's time. Not all that respectful for the men and women dying for their homeland and religion to call their struggle "a sideshow" if you ask me.

"Before we wage war upon our foes, we must wage a war against our lesser selves."

You Stormcloaks share the same view... The Civil War is a sideshow before the main event.

Isn't there proof the Dark Brotherhood does it? Wouldnt they claim responsibility or people would just put 2 and 2 together after?

Vici is blamed on the Stormcloaks, and a letter is discovered about a Stormcloak plot to kill the Emperor. Dark Brotherhood has to be hired by someone, so when they're revealed it is after the fake plot has been discovered. It is a good way to blame the Thalmor too, since the Empire believes they're behind the unrest in Skyrim.

No one in Oblivion ever had anything bad to say about Redguards or Bretons as far as I can remember.

Depends on how much they like you.

That quote proves he doesn't want to fight Cyrodiil, and when the war breaks out they'll be on the same side. Any circumstance that's Skyrim's doing, that is. Ulfric sure won't be marching on Cyrodiil anytime soon, there's nothing to gain from it. Could we trust you Imperials?

That quote proves there will be problems if someone in the royal line is killed. And they are, you're blamed on at least one death. Motierre and the Elder Council would try to put blame far away from them. So chances are either Stormcloaks or Thalmor get the blame and the Empire goes to war.

You can trust the Imperials will get fired up, they'll be calling for war against someone.

The fifty percent Galmar dies, Ulfric also does so that's irrelevant. I'm sure the Jarls wouldn't want another civil war, and the armies would be way to divided for anyone to be able to accomplish anything. And again, Ulfric's heir wouldn't be too far off, especially since he acknowledges the danger he faces as High King.

Don't expect an heir, or Ulfric/Galmar/Tullius/Rikke to survive. The war hasn't ended, even after you kill Ulfric and Tullius it is still going on.

A former Legionaire in Oblivion:
"With every word you speak you're just proving me right, Nord. Your kind has contributed nothing to our Empire and never will!"
Obviously not true, but it is what a Legionaire living in Cyrodiil thinks of "the strong arm of the Empire."

He's a Redguard, but that is one man. He hates Nords because he's lost a lot of friends to Nord raiding parties against the Legion Forts. There are Nords who hate other Nords in Oblivion, especially the ones who get drunk a lot. Saying they give us a bad name.

We could argue for days about Titus II. He'll end being almost as controversial as Ulfric. You could also blame his predecessors for allowing the Empire to descend to the state it did. Other than Titus I there's not a lot to love.

The Emperor only has the power of Veto in Imperial politics. It is hard to just blame one man out of the hundreds who all have a role in what weakened the Empire prior to the Great War

And while that's true, the Thalmor will also continue to do that on arguably more effective level in Cyrodiil.

If locals view it that way, than I can't imagine Cyrodiilics viewing it any differently.

Yes, they have their own troubles to deal with so losing Skyrim won't effect that many Imperials.

He mentions Tullius "turning things around" so it suggests the Legion was present for while without Tullius. But like I said, where else would Tullius be?

But a Stormcloak/Dominion war would be more or less a continuation of a fight for Skyrim's freedom.

I don't think Motierre and his buddies' first order of buisness will be to go to war.

I'm talking about Imperials talking about NPCs, not the player character.

Well that starts to get into whatever Bethesda decides to do which won't completly align with what we did in game. The "war" that's still going on is essentially reduced to terrorism or banditry. Very unlikely they could get a shot in on the leaders, Ulfric won't be going for hikes in the wilderness looking for Imperial survivors. The threat posed by the remaining oppenents is not given much thought by Ulfric or Tullius.

The point is he's a Legionaire like how you said it didn't matter Cauis was Imperial. So even if it is because all the Nords are drunk out of their minds they still aren't respected by Imperials.

Septims were in the same situation with the "veto" but it worked out well for them.