Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Ancano]

“Arrogance on the part of the meritorious is even more offensive to us than the arrogance of those without merit: for merit itself is offensive.”

― Friedrich Nietzsche

Arrogance will be your downfall for sure my Thalmor friend. You will never get the meritorious attention that you so desire. You will never have the chance to rule Tamriel, especially Skyrim. It is nice to dream doesn't it?

lmao. Didn't I tell u? Only High Elves belong on the High Ground. Sit down before u fall down.

Oh please tell me more about the high elves.

Tell you what? Nords don't know how to listen... you just like to be heard.

Why don't you tell me why you haven't already won this debate for the Stormcloaks? All you guys do is play the victim, make jokes when people tell you "it's time to be serious". Keep on laughing, looting, throwing people on spike traps and lighting 'em on fire in cages.

Cause this Empire has ALREADY TOLD YOU how it is and they are not going to keep making excuses for you. Keep laughing prick payback's coming. Maybe one day I'll get to show you what I think is funny.

 

[Raijin]

Tell you what? Nords don't know how to listen... you just like to be heard.

Why don't you tell me why you haven't already won this debate for the Stormcloaks? All you guys do is play the victim, make jokes when people tell you "it's time to be serious". Keep on laughing, looting, throwing people on spike traps and lighting 'em on fire in cages.

Cause this Empire has ALREADY TOLD YOU how it is and they are not going to keep making excuses for you. Keep laughing prick payback's coming. Maybe one day I'll get to show you what I think is funny.

Oh we know how to listen... just that we Nords are allergic to bullplops talk. That's when the laughing starts and including the jokes And we already won the debate for the Stormcloaks a long time ago. I don't ever recall ever using the victim card game to get my point across.. The Imperials tend to victimized the Dunmers and the Argonians at an attempt to make the Stormcloaks and Ulfric look bad. It is an utter failure on the part of the Imperial supporters in here.

No the Empire didn't tell me nothing. They can try all they want but in reality they're no longer welcome in Skyrim as they proven to us that they're not deem to carry such authority in our home lands.

Why make me wait one day when you can show me now what you think is funny Mr. High elf? allegedly superior to all mankind and proper rulers of Tamriel? You cruel bastard!

 

[DrunkenMage]

What do you have against Nords? Stop being racist because Nords do not ask for war. They are put into the situation where they must go to war.

I have nothing against Nords, I'm being racist am I? Yet Ulfric himself says that Nords never know peace, guess he is racist too?

Stormcloaks =/= Nords. The Stormcloaks do not represent the Nordic people. What do you have against Imperials? You and your Stormcloaks in this thread, unable to grasp that Empire =/= Imperials of Cyrodiil.

Ulfric: "I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn."

Ulfric: "Peace? When has any Nord ever known peace? Skyrim breeds warriors. It's who we are, it's in our blood."

Because it was too late. Trollius only brought it up to save his own ass... to use this piece of information as collateral in hopes to spare his life while his remanding loyal soldiers outside Castle Dour are laying dead because of his irresponsible course of action. To that respects I can almost see why Emperor Titus Mede II refuse to give Trollius more soldiers at his disposal. I credit Titus Mede II for not giving in to such temptation of a blood thirsty General.

You said this information would end the war, it doesn't end the war. So why are you making things up? Ulfric could have stopped and made peace with the Legion, made a treaty with the Empire to leave and not make any counter-attack. Yet he doesn't.

The very fact you believe Tullius was withholding this information which a fair few people have come to realize... Yet Ulfric has no idea? Please tell us more about how the Stormcloaks are going to defeat the Thalmor, about how they're better suited... Your leaders can't even work out that the Civil War benefits the Thalmor . Just hand them the province and don't even bother trying to fight them, Stormcloaks are clearly not suited.

You Stormcloaks are like twenty steps behind the Thalmor and Empire... Try to keep up.

So keep telling everyone about how the Imperials have to tell Ulfric the Thalmor are behind everything.

With Elisif's lack of political and military experience Trollius might as well lead Skyrim.

She learns.

"Everyone knows General Tullius wields the real power Solitude. Elisif? Ah, she's a figurehead. A puppet." - Odar (The cook)

General Tullius won't be in Skyrim forever, and like Ulfric Stormcloak he dies 50% of the time. Elisif is the only constant in either side of the war.

Like Trollius Ulfric also there to do his job as a proud Nord of Skyrim.

I don't even not what you're saying there.

That is true. We are in a medieval setting, however from my observation tells me that the most common settings for execution is by starvation in a cell/cage and being tortured to death in the rack.

Depends on the person handing out the sentence. Executions aren't new, and the main method of execution is to cut off someone's head.

It isn't an execution if you starve or if you die during torture... Unless they sentenced you to die that way. Though if you believe losing your head is such a bad thing, given the examples you just said... You need to take another look. Personally I'd rather a quick clean death, than starving or dying on a rack.

Might as well. He certainly has the aptitude of being one

Well Ulfric can't handle one serial killer in his city, so looks like you're out matched.

General Tullius is quite mild in comparison to what the Legion might do next. Royal blood has been spilt, and Cyrodiil is going to be pissed. You Stormcloaks can't risk all out war with the Empire, cause that so called "weak and dying" Empire will come and open a can of whoop ass on you.

 

[DrunkenMage]

"
We'll take it back, no worries.

I'm sure you will.

They tortured it out of other Blades, the new ones won't be any different.

They'd have to get the new ones. Good luck to the Thalmor to try and kidnap them.

Chances are most of the artifacts hoarded by the Imperials are now in Alinor. White-Gold Tower was looted during the sack of the Imprial City; conquerors tend to grab everything that isn't nailed down.

Except that I was talking about now, in 4E 201. Synod and College of Whispers are collecting powerful artifacts to bring back to Cyrodiil to gain favor of the Council and Emperor.

If you hadn't noticed, the Thalmor take their time. Elves tend to have longer lifespans, take things slow. So just wait it out and don't expect Tiber Septim 2.0 with pointed ears to happen.

Thalmor take too much time, stepping up as much as they can in Skyrim since the Legions appeared on their border. Sending Elenwen herself to try halt the execution... You lot starting to panic. If the Imperials win, harms your overall position.

And when does that happen? After the main quest the Imperials try to stabilize the area, same counts for the Stormcloaks who just began their rule (if you play their questline). Neither focus on the Thalmo, although Tullius a little more Ulfric while the latter is busy describing his life to the folk at the Bards College I guess. Boo flffing hoo, we're so afraid of listening to bad-written poetry.

Tullius and the Legates all make mention to it. The Empire is focusing on the Thalmor, Stormcloaks will in time if they can get sorted. If not, well it doesn't matter too much if they fall into infighting and become even weaker.

From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes.

Likely with someone's help. It's not like it's that hard to track an ill-gotten invitation, and even though they don't like the Thalmor they still won't mess things up too often. Wouldn't dare to;

Yet they even got your name on Elenwen's list. Whoever it was, it can't have been the Wood Elf. Has to be someone who has more access.

Sky Haven Temple has more entrances than just that, since after some time Esbern spends his time squatting somewhere outside. The only annoying thing about its location would be the Forsworn.

Thalmor are going to scale a cliff? With what army? Your numbers are already stretched thin enough in Skyrim. Thalmor rely on assassination and secrecy. You think the Legion won't notice a bunch of elves trying to attack a fortress? You'd need at least a lot of rope or even siege equipment.

And who? His retired paranoia-plagued uncle?

Or his father, or one of the other Nobles.

Maybe, but then they might as well destroy the entire population of Alinor. They're all united under the Thalmor ideology, killing a few leaders won't change a thing. Even if someday the Empire would set foot on that island again they'd have to be "denazified"; you'd have to remove Thalmor influence from society completely.

Are they really?

Guard #1: "Did you see those robes march in this morning? Who're they with? More of the Emissary's treaty enforcers?"
Guard #2: "No. They're high mages, just in from Alinor. I guess Herself is finally getting worried about all the dragon attacks."
Guard #1: "Ah, good. I've been wondering how we were supposed to defend this place from a dragon."
Guard #2: "If a dragon does show up, maybe we'll get lucky and it will eat the mages first. Might give us enough time to kill it."
Guard #1: "Ha. I'd like to see those arrogant bastards taken down a notch. Always looking down their noses at us lowly footsloggers."

If you think the Imperials, Nords and Redguards will hold back when they hit Alinor, you're mistaken. I'm sure there will be a lot of revenge for the atrocities the Aldmeri committed during the Great War. Keep them hanging in cages off towers in true Colovian Warlord fashion.

Can't tell because there's no report about it. Seeing how Runil escaped I wonder if what is called "whole main army" in the book "The Great War" was just the military force inside the Imperial City and its immediate surroundings, not all forces in Cyrodiil.

Escaped and turned his back on the Thalmor, I'm sure there will be many more like him during the Second Great War.

And would have left his civil population to die. Don't give Mede that much credit, those few smart generals he had did a few nice moves as well.

"There is no progress without sacrifice. No wheat without threshing the chaff."

People die all the time. Mede turned certain defeat into a victory, and the Empire still stands to fight once more.

 

[Jeremius]

General Tullius is quite mild in comparison to what the Legion might do next. Royal blood has been spilt, and Cyrodiil is going to be pissed. You Stormcloaks can't risk all out war with the Empire, cause that so called "weak and dying" Empire will come and open a can of whoop ass on you.

I think that The death of the Emperor is something that the rebels do not think is going to bite them in the butt. After all, either the rebels have just won the civil war, are still at war, or still seething over losing the war. IT would make sense that they would have the emperor assassinated in the minds of the elder council.

 

[Ancano]

Tell you what? Nords don't know how to listen... you just like to be heard.

Why don't you tell me why you haven't already won this debate for the Stormcloaks? All you guys do is play the victim, make jokes when people tell you "it's time to be serious". Keep on laughing, looting, throwing people on spike traps and lighting 'em on fire in cages.

Cause this Empire has ALREADY TOLD YOU how it is and they are not going to keep making excuses for you. Keep laughing prick payback's coming. Maybe one day I'll get to show you what I think is funny.

Oh we know how to listen... just that we Nords are allergic to bullpl*** talk. That's when the laughing starts and including the jokes And we already won the debate for the Stormcloaks a long time ago. I don't ever recall ever using the victim card game to get my point across.. The Imperials tend to victimized the Dunmers and the Argonians at an attempt to make the Stormcloaks and Ulfric look bad. It is an utter failure on the part of the Imperial supporters in here.

No the Empire didn't tell me nothing. They can try all they want but in reality they're no longer welcome in Skyrim as they proven to us that they're not deem to carry such authority in our home lands.

Why make me wait one day when you can show me now what you think is funny Mr. High elf? allegedly superior to all mankind and proper rulers of Tamriel? You cruel bastard!

Congratulations on your Victory over the Empire.

Half of Skyrim is still laughing at you.

DrunkenMage is still recruiting heavily against you.

Thalmor are still moving around unchecked and unwrecked.

Moderate users on here are not turning to your way of thinking.

Stormcloaks who agree with the concept of Freedom, don't agree with your methods.

The Empire will NEVER abandon the citizens in it's half of Skyrim, the Dominion will NEVER forgive you or the Empire. Like... ever.

Even so, I have to agree we only want what is best for Tamriel. Surely, the rebels will accept peace when they realize this.

 

[Ancano]

Tell you what? Nords don't know how to listen... you just like to be heard.

Why don't you tell me why you haven't already won this debate for the Stormcloaks? All you guys do is play the victim, make jokes when people tell you "it's time to be serious". Keep on laughing, looting, throwing people on spike traps and lighting 'em on fire in cages.

Cause this Empire has ALREADY TOLD YOU how it is and they are not going to keep making excuses for you. Keep laughing prick payback's coming. Maybe one day I'll get to show you what I think is funny.

Oh we know how to listen... just that we Nords are allergic to bullpl*** talk. That's when the laughing starts and including the jokes And we already won the debate for the Stormcloaks a long time ago. I don't ever recall ever using the victim card game to get my point across.. The Imperials tend to victimized the Dunmers and the Argonians at an attempt to make the Stormcloaks and Ulfric look bad. It is an utter failure on the part of the Imperial supporters in here.

No the Empire didn't tell me nothing. They can try all they want but in reality they're no longer welcome in Skyrim as they proven to us that they're not deem to carry such authority in our home lands.

Why make me wait one day when you can show me now what you think is funny Mr. High elf? allegedly superior to all mankind and proper rulers of Tamriel? You cruel bastard!

For pages upon pages now DrunkenMage has sunk every one of your arguments as well as a majority of Stormcloak arguments, from multiple directions.

I think the responsible thing for the Stormcloaks to do now is start conceding some things at this point. Or at least admit the Empire is still what is best for Tamriel. That includes us, of course I'm referring to the East Empire CO and stability so we don't have to do the Empire's job of policing Tamriel.

If you cannot deal with the Empire, you stand no chance against the Thalmor either.

Deal with DrunkenMage first, convince him the Empire is not worth fighting for and convince a majority of Imperials on here that your side is best for Tamriel.

I'll take winner, don't care which one you're both on the Dominion's list. Until that time comes, I'll be silent... but watching. Unless Rimfaxe or any other Dominion citizen requires assistance.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I think that The death of the Emperor is something that the rebels do not think is going to bite them in the butt. After all, either the rebels have just won the civil war, are still at war, or still seething over losing the war. IT would make sense that they would have the emperor assassinated in the minds of the elder council.

Well Vici's death will be a big one too, it will send shockwaves throughout the entire Empire. Since everyone will assume it will have been caused by the Stormcloak Rebellion. Which forced the Emperor's hand to get involved... Then a plot is discovered which says he will die by Stormcloak hands. The Dark Brotherhood are used at the very end, and only the Emperor knew someone within the Empire had arranged his death.

There will be a peace between the Empire and Stormcloaks, but only after much more bloodshed. It will most likely happen, but Ulfric, Galmar, Tullius and Rikke will be dead.

Though it is good, it will send the entire Empire into an uproar and Cyrodiil up in arms. Nice good kick in the ass and the entire Empire calling out for war.

In one stroke Motierre has the Empire in a rage, the White-Gold Concordat possibly void, the Stormcloaks and even the Redguards now can find common ground with the Empire... As they both blamed the Emperor Titus Mede II for their woes.

 

[Raijin]

You guys wanna hear some Windhelm jokes?

 

[DrunkenMage]

"When we get back to Cyrodiil, I swear I will hire an army of battlemages to come up here and set fire to the whole damned province." - Salonia

 

[Wilhelm]

The Empire provides Skyrim with economic and political power in much of Tamriel. Basically, the Empire is the driving force of the Nords and Imperials in which gives power to the two. An independent Skyrim means much smaller economic power, strength, and a weaker nation over all. As for the customs of Nords, well, of course the ban on Talos is an issue specific to the Aldmeri Dominion. The Stormcloaks should make their foolish selves useful, and instead bring a war to the Aldmeri Dominion. If that were to start a second Great War, than Skyrim is to stand by the Empire. The Empire is beneficial, the Aldmeri Dominion is not.

 

[Ancano]

The Empire provides Skyrim with economic and political power in much of Tamriel. Basically, the Empire is the driving force of the Nords and Imperials in which gives power to the two. An independent Skyrim means much smaller economic power, strength, and a weaker nation over all. As for the customs of Nords, well, of course the ban on Talos is an issue specific to the Aldmeri Dominion. The Stormcloaks should make their foolish selves useful, and instead bring a war to the Aldmeri Dominion. If that were to start a second Great War, than Skyrim is to stand by the Empire. The Empire is beneficial, the Aldmeri Dominion is not.

I think the Aldmeri have *contributed* a great deal to Tamriel. If you can get over your blatant Elven bias, then perhaps you could learn to respect the fact the Aldmeri have earned the right to rule at least part of Tamriel. All man has done is drive us out and build their fake Empires on top of everything we made possible.

You would have no Empire if it weren't for the Ayleids and Direnni. That's ok though, it's alright. I still think Tamriel needs the Empire to keep the kingdoms of man in line and it needs the Dominion to protect the Elven Kingdoms.

There is peace now, and that peace will continue for as long as it suits our needs. But make no mistake, this is not a peace forged out of necessity between rival nations of equal strength. It is more like the calm between storms. And the next storm, I think, will be far deadlier than the last.

 

[Raijin]

I have nothing against Nords, I'm being racist am I? Yet Ulfric himself says that Nords never know peace, guess he is racist too?

Stormcloaks =/= Nords. The Stormcloaks do not represent the Nordic people. What do you have against Imperials? You and your Stormcloaks in this thread, unable to grasp that Empire =/= Imperials of Cyrodiil.

I have everything against the Imperials (The Empire's title, not the race itself). They're full of deception and lies that it hurts deep inside. The fact that they force people to overly depend on them to the point where people have forgotten how to defend for themselves due to the heavy dependance of the Empire. The Dunmers of Solstheim learned the hard hard of being overly depended on the Empire. Ulfric is the best thing that could ever happen to Skyrim. Not only is he building up an independent military armies for Skyrim, but hes actually giving the Empire a favor. With Ulfric driving out the rest of the remaining Imperial troops out of Skyrim Cyrodill now has more soldiers at their disposal, and their security has doubled now that they have more troops.

Ulfric: "Peace? When has any Nord ever known peace? Skyrim breeds warriors. It's who we are, it's in our blood."

Ulfric: "I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn."

You said this information would end the war, it doesn't end the war. So why are you making things up? Ulfric could have stopped and made peace with the Legion, made a treaty with the Empire to leave and not make any counter-attack. Yet he doesn't.

The very fact you believe Tullius was withholding this information which a fair few people have come to realize... Yet Ulfric has no idea? Please tell us more about how the Stormcloaks are going to defeat the Thalmor, about how they're better suited... Your leaders can't even work out that the Civil War benefits the Thalmor . Just hand them the province and don't even bother trying to fight them, Stormcloaks are clearly not suited.

You Stormcloaks are like twenty steps behind the Thalmor and Empire... Try to keep up.

So keep telling everyone about how the Imperials have to tell Ulfric the Thalmor are behind everything.

How do you know that it wouldn't end the war had Trollius taken the diplomatic route instead of doing the Thalmor doing by wasting precious resources that they had? There was no way for Ulfric to make peace with the legion, and to create this peace treaty when they came to Skyrim solely with full intentions of capturing him, and then executing him. How can you make peace with that? Trollius made it known that the only way to end the war is "Ulfric Stormcloak's head rolling away from his lifeless body." and that he came here for the ultimate trophie of "sending his heads back to Cyrodiil" and "Ulfric Stormcloak is dead. His head will be sent to Cyrodiil where it will adorn a spike on the walls of the Imperial City."

How the fluff can you make peace with someone with this kind of mentality?

She learns.

She can learn by being the Jarl, not Queen. You take baby steps, not giant ones.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I have everything against the Imperials (The Empire's title, not the race itself). They're full of deception and lies that it hurts deep inside. The fact that they force people to overly depend on them to the point where people have forgotten how to defend for themselves due to the heavy dependance of the Empire. The Dunmers of Solstheim learned the hard hard of being overly depended on the Empire. Ulfric is the best thing that could ever happen to Skyrim. Not only is he building up an independent military armies for Skyrim, but hes actually giving the Empire a favor. With Ulfric driving out the rest of the remaining Imperial troops out of Skyrim Cyrodill now has more soldiers at their disposal, and their security has doubled now that they have more troops.

Morrowind's woes was because they had a Civil War just less than three years prior to the Oblivion Crisis. It wasn't that they depended on the Empire, or the Empire forced this onto them. They had a war over the banning of slavery at the wrong damn time. House Redoran saw fit to fight against the slave trade ending, not the Empire's fault it couldn't provide protection.

The Imperial Legions were hit extremely hard during the Crisis, where gates themselves opened right in the middle of their forces and garrisons.

Ulfric: "Peace? When has any Nord ever known peace? Skyrim breeds warriors. It's who we are, it's in our blood."

Ulfric: "I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn."

How do you know that it wouldn't end the war had Trollius taken the diplomatic route instead of doing the Thalmor doing by wasting precious resources that they had? There was no way for Ulfric to make peace with the legion, and to create this peace treaty when they came to Skyrim solely with full intentions of capturing him, and then executing him. How can you make peace with that? Trollius made it known that the only way to end the war is "Ulfric Stormcloak's head rolling away from his lifeless body." and that he came here for the ultimate trophie of "sending his heads back to Cyrodiil" and "Ulfric Stormcloak is dead. His head will be sent to Cyrodiil where it will adorn a spike on the walls of the Imperial City."

How the fluff can you make peace with someone with this kind of mentality?

If Ulfric wanted peace, why did he start a Civil War? He had the chance to try peaceful and diplomatic means. He does not want to speak with the Empire, well he considers even being around them a great gesture. You can't come to terms with someone like Ulfric Stormcloak, it took the near end of the world to even get him at the table.

Do you honestly believe that Ulfric Stormcloak will stop his rebellion, because of what one Imperial General says? He won't believe he's being manipulated by the Thalmor, his supporters won't either.

She can learn by being the Jarl, not Queen. You take baby steps, not giant ones.

Nords don't mess about, they jump into things. Much like marriage is done in Skyrim. You think people "learn" how to rule by watching? Ulfric doesn't plan to let Elisif learn anything, he holds her hostage in a manner of speaking. The only orders she can give are the ones Ulfric makes.

You can't have a rebellion every time you think a King or Queen isn't ready to rule. You'll just end up in the bad old days, where Jarls are killing each other to take over.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I have decided since some have changed allegiances, that I will now debate for the An-Xileel.

You Stormcloaks, Empire and Thalmor will bow before the Hist.

 

[Raijin]

Congratulations on your Victory over the Empire.

Half of Skyrim is still laughing at you.

DrunkenMage is still recruiting heavily against you.

Thalmor are still moving around unchecked and unwrecked.

Moderate users on here are not turning to your way of thinking.

Stormcloaks who agree with the concept of Freedom, don't agree with your methods.

The Empire will NEVER abandon the citizens in it's half of Skyrim, the Dominion will NEVER forgive you or the Empire. Like... ever.

Even so, I have to agree we only want what is best for Tamriel. Surely, the rebels will accept peace when they realize this.

Merged with

For pages upon pages now DrunkenMage has sunk every one of your arguments as well as a majority of Stormcloak arguments, from multiple directions.

I think the responsible thing for the Stormcloaks to do now is start conceding some things at this point. Or at least admit the Empire is still what is best for Tamriel. That includes us, of course I'm referring to the East Empire CO and stability so we don't have to do the Empire's job of policing Tamriel.

If you cannot deal with the Empire, you stand no chance against the Thalmor either.

Deal with DrunkenMage first, convince him the Empire is not worth fighting for and convince a majority of Imperials on here that your side is best for Tamriel.

I'll take winner, don't care which one you're both on the Dominion's list. Until that time comes, I'll be silent... but watching. Unless Rimfaxe or any other Dominion citizen requires assistance.

I swear I must be suffering from a severe condition called being a Cynical Asshole.... especially when dealing with the Thalmor

Here's a quick video explaining what it is

Anyhow DrunkenMage and I have our differences. He supports the Empire whereas I support the Stormcloaks. This is the 1008th page and we still support our team. It's like a football team if anything else. you're loyal until the end. Do you know just how boring this thread will become if I actually convince him to switch places? For him to now become a Stormcloak supporter? This thread would die in the heart beat.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

And if Tiber wasn't in Hammerfell or High Rock at the time (im not totally clear on the timeline) the rebellion wouldn't have even happened.

He was driven out of the city... He was there.

If the Forsworn rise up again, or one of your Skyrim doomsday scenarios comes true and the Dominion is all over Cyrodiil, who's there for Skyrim?

Who would be there for Skyrim if the Stormcloaks are all fighting in the South? I doubt there is much one can do for Skyrim if it happened during the War. After the war, then that is another matter.

Exactly my point, except if Skyrim is independent none of its resources are diverted to an Imperial war effort.

They'd just be diverted to a Stormcloak war effort? Who require more since they're not getting things from High Rock or other provinces. They don't use mercenaries, so be a more demand to have to field these armies and arm them.

I didn't claim Rikke knows nothing, the people they sent from Cyrodiil know nothing. The Imperials are damn lucky to have her because if it wasn't for Rikke I'd hate to see how badly the war would go for them.
"Sorry, which way is Winterhelm? You know, where Count Ulfric lives."

You really think the Legion are a bunch of idiots? http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Holds_of_Skyrim

They at least wrote a small guide for new Legion Officers for the Civil War.

"Which way is Winterhelm"? Considering Windhelm was once a Legion garrison prior to the Great War. They don't call Jarls "Counts" either.

Yeah, exactly second in command. She still answers to Tullius and Cyrodiil. And of the new jarls, who is she going to influence? Brunwulf has his own plan, Brina probably already knows how Imperials run things, and Winterhold won't see any real change in her lifetime. Oh but I'm sure Maven will listen to whatever Rikke has to say.

She still provides advice to Tullius which he listens to, and he's come to respect the Nords. They do not answer to Cyrodiil, they answer to the Emperor or the Grand Marshal of the Legion. The Imperial Legion do not swear loyalty to Cyrodiil, they swear to the Emperor and to the Officers of the Legion.

Maven isn't an idiot, more powerful people have been brought down by the Legion. She won't test them. She knows how to play along, and dance a tune.

You think Skyrim will be on the same level with Cyrodiil after they've gone through war and dragons? Not to mention they were in open rebellion against them, and thier entire government has just been hand-picked by the Empire.

Stormcloaks were in open rebellion, not Skyrim. Of course Skyrim will be on the same level as Cyrodiil, it doesn't matter what they suffered. Cyrodiil and Skyrim do not outrank each other. Think of the Imperial City as it's own kingdom. Cyrodiil, just like Skyrim can have problems with that little kingdom. Both are equally represented.

There certainly isn't a Stormcloak rebellion in Cyrodiil.

No, just a lot of unrest. Cyrodiil has their own issues with the Empire's orders too.

I'm not sure how that quote proves Talos is more important to Imperials than Nords.

They're about the same.

That's nice but I'm not supporting Istlod for High King. Any form of government that let the WGC happen is not something I want Skyrim to continue to be a part of.

Yet there are those who wish to remain part of the Empire. The White-Gold Concordat was done by Titus Mede II, and no one likes the damn thing.

Do you think that the actual banning of Talos is the only thing that makes the WGC so despised? While he's unimaginably important yes, the Empire stripped its people of freedom, put its people's fate in the hands of the enemy.

People are never free in Tamriel, and their fate is always at the hands of the enemy. The Thalmor have been killing these people for over a hundred and fifty years, the Empire just opened your eyes and you see them walking about.

And if they can do it once, why can't they do it again?

They probably could do it again, but why would they? This was not done by choice, and pl*** doesn't always work the way you want it to. Can't prance about demanding the good, and the moment the bad happens you throw a fit and get a new regime.

And if the legion isn't even actively campaigning to get a Nordic army together I don't see a lot of Nords ending up in the legion for the war.

Why is that? They're going to refuse to fight against the Thalmor after the White-Gold Concordat is gone? They don't need to join the Legion for that. Though the Legion's training may help.

There are many Nords in the Legion now. Stop confusing Stormcloaks with all Nords.

Revolutions don't succeed through mildness. But after the war, Ulfric is no idiot, if you think he's gonna approach every problem by swinging an axe at it, you haven't paid that much attention to him.

Truly? I'm sure he'll approach each problem depending if it increases his image. Though he won't be swinging an axe, he'll be using that fancy ancient royal blade he has his blacksmith creating.

If the Concordat happens, and is eventually tossed out but no one ever spoke up about it, the Empire will realize they can impose whatever they like, and their subjects will let them get away with it.

No they won't. The Empire would fracture if they decided to impose whatever they wanted. People do speak up about it, no one wants the White-Gold Concordat. The Empire didn't do it to test to see if they can do whatever they wanted.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and all that.

Perhaps that is why the Empire is ruled not by a single man, but an Emperor and two Councils.

"We will do whatever I decide is in the best interests of Skyrim. Are we clear?" - Ulfric Stormcloak

By Tiber I meant Tiber's forces.

After, the war Skyrim can focus on Skyrim. Seems like a pretty good idea. There's probably a Nord wanting to join a militia every day, so they can probably manage themselves at least as well as the Legion would.

Who says we don't use mercanaries? The EETC, stationed in Windhelm, says there are no mercanaries availible because they're all fighting the war. Yes, we can still import things, I'd imagine if not direct allies Hammerfell would at least increase trade with them, the EETC still operates.

I guess no ones reading it, because the bloody LEGATES don't know they're called jarls.
That was a joke, and you're right they call them "kings" correct?

To clear things up (I thought it was obvious) when I say "Cyrodiil" I mean the Elder Council, Emporer, the Imperial Government in general.

Well I'm sure Maven has both of our best interests in mind.

We know for a fact Cyrodiil has come first for long time. Just comparing cities in Oblivion to the other games you can see they're wealthier. In the Oblivion Crisis they pulled troops from Morrowind, and in the Great War they tried to pull troops from Hammerfell (thank goodness Decianus had a heart). And Cyrodiil was not even close to being as affected from the Concordat as the other provinces were.

Sorry, you'll have to convince me a little better than that that Talos is loved by Imperials as much as Nords.

Wars have been fought in Tamriel for far less significant things than disposing of the Thalmor regime. I don't know what to say if Mede thought he needed the Concordat to open people's eyes.

Why would Ulfric need to keep doing things to better his image if he's already High King? The image thing is to attract jarls and soldiers. If he was really that concerned about image, why does he need so much convincing to go after the Jagged Crown?

So every future Emporer and Elder Council member is a guaranteed angel? The next time something iffy is proposed, they'll look to the WGC and say, "well that worked out nicely, everyone went along with it,"

Oh come on, because those two disagree so often recently? How come we never hear about how the Council trying to reject the WGC?

The moot still exists, and that quote didn't really help you either.

"best interests of Skyrim"

 

[TheQahnaarin]

Just want to point out the "Ulfric can't handle a single murderer in his city" argument has zero credibility considering Solitude is home to Jaree-ra, and an entire boatload of Imperial supplies is lost from the extinguishing of a single fire.

 

[Ancano]

Congratulations on your Victory over the Empire.

Half of Skyrim is still laughing at you.

DrunkenMage is still recruiting heavily against you.

Thalmor are still moving around unchecked and unwrecked.

Moderate users on here are not turning to your way of thinking.

Stormcloaks who agree with the concept of Freedom, don't agree with your methods.

The Empire will NEVER abandon the citizens in it's half of Skyrim, the Dominion will NEVER forgive you or the Empire. Like... ever.

Even so, I have to agree we only want what is best for Tamriel. Surely, the rebels will accept peace when they realize this.

Merged with

For pages upon pages now DrunkenMage has sunk every one of your arguments as well as a majority of Stormcloak arguments, from multiple directions.

I think the responsible thing for the Stormcloaks to do now is start conceding some things at this point. Or at least admit the Empire is still what is best for Tamriel. That includes us, of course I'm referring to the East Empire CO and stability so we don't have to do the Empire's job of policing Tamriel.

If you cannot deal with the Empire, you stand no chance against the Thalmor either.

Deal with DrunkenMage first, convince him the Empire is not worth fighting for and convince a majority of Imperials on here that your side is best for Tamriel.

I'll take winner, don't care which one you're both on the Dominion's list. Until that time comes, I'll be silent... but watching. Unless Rimfaxe or any other Dominion citizen requires assistance.

I swear I must be suffering from a severe condition called being a Cynical Asshole.... especially when dealing with the Thalmor

Here's a quick video explaining what it is

Anyhow DrunkenMage and I have our differences. He supports the Empire whereas I support the Stormcloaks. This is the 1008th page and we still support our team. It's like a football team if anything else. you're loyal until the end. Do you know just how boring this thread will become if I actually convince him to switch places? For him to now become a Stormcloak supporter? This thread would die in the heart beat.

Somehow I'm not so certain everyone else is playing by your rules.

You know, I do respect the fact that you Stormcloaks are willing to fight so hard for your Freedom(s). Fighting against the world it seems.

Hah you know Skyrim once ruled a good chunk of Tamriel and now, you've been reduced to subservient trolls to an Empire that's turned you into little second hand bastards and tells you to just go to your room whenever you try and discuss how bad things have gotten.

That would probably drive me to start offing people too. Hard to be reasonable with people whom you know don't want to reason with you.

Still... flff u guys I play to win... however that does not mean I'm the only winner.

 

[Wilhelm]

The Empire provides Skyrim with economic and political power in much of Tamriel. Basically, the Empire is the driving force of the Nords and Imperials in which gives power to the two. An independent Skyrim means much smaller economic power, strength, and a weaker nation over all. As for the customs of Nords, well, of course the ban on Talos is an issue specific to the Aldmeri Dominion. The Stormcloaks should make their foolish selves useful, and instead bring a war to the Aldmeri Dominion. If that were to start a second Great War, than Skyrim is to stand by the Empire. The Empire is beneficial, the Aldmeri Dominion is not.

I think the Aldmeri have *contributed* a great deal to Tamriel. If you can get over your blatant Elven bias, then perhaps you could learn to respect the fact the Aldmeri have earned the right to rule at least part of Tamriel. All man has done is drive us out and build their fake Empires on top of everything we made possible.

You would have no Empire if it weren't for the Ayleids and Direnni. That's ok though, it's alright. I still think Tamriel needs the Empire to keep the kingdoms of man in line and it needs the Dominion to protect the Elven Kingdoms.

There is peace now, and that peace will continue for as long as it suits our needs. But make no mistake, this is not a peace forged out of necessity between rival nations of equal strength. It is more like the calm between storms. And the next storm, I think, will be far deadlier than the last.

You are right sir, the Altermi Dominion has contributed to Tamriel, that have caused numerous wars and pointless deaths. And again, you are right, the Altmer have earned the right to rule at least part of Tamriel, it's called the Summerset Isles. As for our empires, well, they have reached the economic power that you elves are yet to match. You may stay a dagger in the back of men, and take our qualities, but you will not reach our organization or power.

And sir, what have you elves done for our Empire? Besides kill us, that is. The empires have kept all of us alive. I'm not sure what Morrowind could ever do for us, that is to exceed are own achievements.

And there is little peace to be had yet. Peace is on paper. Men and their blood are on the cold ground, slain to your Dominion. Our great Empire is suffering at your hands. We suffer because of your "peace." Mind you, one day the Empire will succeed, and the Dominion will tremble at the power of men and their empires.