Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

And yes. It was quelled.

Matriarch, we await your orders. Our blades are honed, our quivers full, our wills steeled for battle. The time of our waiting has ended. The time for battle is at hand. You have but to speak the word, and the occupiers shall fall like wheat before the reaper.

They were quelled? Seems to me they just became even worse.

 

[Ancano]

And yes. It was quelled.

Matriarch, we await your orders. Our blades are honed, our quivers full, our wills steeled for battle. The time of our waiting has ended. The time for battle is at hand. You have but to speak the word, and the occupiers shall fall like wheat before the reaper.

They were quelled? Seems to me they just became even worse.

Criminally-insane misanthropes unionizing for prolonged warfare and civil unrest with an almost inhuman desire for nothing but total domination. Just what we need... another 'special interest' group.

And if you think that's great, you just wait until when they find out Ulfric and his crew has once again taken over their lands, put his man in charge of Markarth, 'a Silverblood'.

 

[DrunkenMage]

"The last of the Septims passes now into history. I go gladly, for I know my sacrifice is not in vain. I take my place with my father, and my father's fathers. The Third Age has ended, and a new age dawns. When the next Elder Scroll is written, you shall be its scribe. The shape of the future, the fate of the Empire, these things now belong to you."​

 

[Raijin]

Matriarch, we await your orders. Our blades are honed, our quivers full, our wills steeled for battle. The time of our waiting has ended. The time for battle is at hand. You have but to speak the word, and the occupiers shall fall like wheat before the reaper.

They were quelled? Seems to me they just became even worse.

It was quelled until the Imperials took over. You can say thanks to them for allowing it to become worst.


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[DrunkenMage]

It was quelled until the Imperials took over. You can say thanks to them for allowing it to become worst.


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The Forsworn claim that they are the true sons and daughters of the Reach

That sounds familiar.

It was never quelled. "The Stormcloaks were forced to retake the Reach on our own, but that taste of independence emboldened them. And the Forsworn were born. In the end, we took back Markarth, but those damn Forsworn still stalk the hills and roads, looking for revenge."

 

[Raijin]

It was quelled until the Imperials took over. You can say thanks to them for allowing it to become worst.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The Forsworn claim that they are the true sons and daughters of the Reach

That sounds familiar.

It was never quelled. "The Stormcloaks were forced to retake the Reach on our own, but that taste of independence emboldened them. And the Forsworn were born. In the end, we took back Markarth, but those damn Forsworn still stalk the hills and roads, looking for revenge."

"You want to know who the Forsworn are? We are the people who must pillage our own land. Burn our own ground. We are the scourge of the Nords. The axe that falls in the dark. The scream before the gods claim your soul. We are the true sons and daughters of the Reach. The spirits and hags have lived here from the beginning, and they are on our side. Go back. Go back and tell your Empire that we will have our own kingdom again. And on that day, we will be the ones burying your dead in a land that is no longer yours." - Cortoran

Looks like the Empire created the Foresworn, and not the Stormcloaks

 

[DrunkenMage]

"You want to know who the Forsworn are? We are the people who must pillage our own land. Burn our own ground. We are the scourge of the Nords. The axe that falls in the dark. The scream before the gods claim your soul. We are the true sons and daughters of the Reach. The spirits and hags have lived here from the beginning, and they are on our side. Go back. Go back and tell your Empire that we will have our own kingdom again. And on that day, we will be the ones burying your dead in a land that is no longer yours." - Cortoran

Looks like the Empire created the Foresworn, and not the Stormcloaks

Stormcloaks were the part of the Empire and still loyal... In the magical land of Raijin, did you lot hate and rebel against the Empire prior to the Markarth Incident.

Those books seem to be prior to any sort of rebellion, so it was just "Empire". So I don't know what point you're trying to make here, since Stormcloaks wouldn't have happened until many years after.

Lets just pretend there are Stormcloaks at this time. It wouldn't make much sense for them to tell an Imperial Scholar "Go back and tell your Stormcloaks that the Reach is no longer yours" (Even though Empire control it).

 

[DrunkenMage]

TALOS. WAS. OUTLAWED.

Well, none of my characters worship Talos. My nords respect Nature and animals, including Dragons.

Don't mind if I edit a Game of Thrones quote for a moment.

"Do you know what the Stormcloak belief is? It's the Many-Headed Talos, a story we agree to tell each other over and over, until we forget that it's a lie."

Tiber Septim, "Talos of Atmora" (Impossible as the last ship from Atmora came hundreds of years before) the founder of the Septim Dynasty that isn't even descended from him. Talos the Nord, Talos Stormcrown... With his Nord (Breton) brother Agnorith whom the Septim bloodline stems from. Funny enough, Tiber aged like a Breton and outlived his own son (people take on the race of the mother).

Talos who became the Ninth Divine for creating the Empire, yet to revere him, the Stormcloaks tear apart the very thing that made him a God.

So when you create your Nord, you must ask. Do you revere and respect the man, or blindly worship the lie that forced so many into service without question?

In a way the Thalmor are right, what we did was heresy. We're just too afraid to admit we ended up believing our own fabrication.

 

[Raijin]

Stormcloaks were the part of the Empire and still loyal... In the magical land of Raijin, did you lot hate and rebel against the Empire prior to the Markarth Incident.

Those books seem to be prior to any sort of rebellion, so it was just "Empire". So I don't know what point you're trying to make here, since Stormcloaks wouldn't have happened until many years after.

Lets just pretend there are Stormcloaks at this time. It wouldn't make much sense for them to tell an Imperial Scholar "Go back and tell your Stormcloaks that the Reach is no longer yours" (Even though Empire control it).

I lost you, Drunkenmage. I don't know what you mean about the Stormcloaks "were the part of the Empire and still loyal". The Stormcloaks are primary of Nordric Imperial legion veterans who departed from the Empire (No longer loyal) the moment Emperor Mede II signed the WGC. I'm not sure if you were pulling my leg on that one. It was rather humorous thought.

The point of bringing up those books is that Skyrim doesn't need the presence of the Imperial legion. Skyrim's already forming up a military army. Skyrim isn't going to make the same mistake that Morrowind did.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I lost you, Drunkenmage. I don't know what you mean about the Stormcloaks "were the part of the Empire and still loyal". The Stormcloaks are primary of Nordric Imperial legion veterans who departed from the Empire (No longer loyal) the moment Emperor Mede II signed the WGC.

Stormcloaks started as a Milita, or more correctly the original members came from that Militia. Ulfric was not against the Empire until the Markarth Incident, which is what the Stormcloaks called the arresting of Ulfric and his Militia.

I'm not sure if you were pulling my leg on that one. It was rather humorous thought.

Not at all, you seem confused on the origins of the Stormcloaks.

The point of bringing up those books is that Skyrim doesn't need the presence of the Imperial legion. Skyrim's already forming up a military army. Skyrim isn't going to make the same mistake that Morrowind did.

Skyrim never made the mistakes of Morrowind, they were weakened over a silly little Civil War when the House loyal to the Empire ended the slave trade.

The point of bringing up those books is moot, your argument was trying to somehow blame the Legion for Markarth. They left for war, as warriors do.

Skyrim forming a Military army doesn't change the fact that this army still has to leave Skyrim to fight in a war. One cannot blame them when traitors and criminals take advantage of their absence or lack of presence when in Military Camps or in a foreign land.

Perhaps you can explain these "mistakes" even apply when you lot plan to take your entire army to the Aldmeri Dominion? Because you're not making sense, are the Stormcloaks not planning on riding to war? Or if they are, do they plan to leave behind large numbers of great warriors? They seem to be making the very same "mistakes" during the Civil War. Bandits are taking advantage, and Windhelm can't even handle a single murderer.

War has risks. For the soldiers, for the women, children and elders left behind.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Thalmor are a good foe. Though not very good at expanding past Valenwood and Elsweyr.

Until now perhaps.

The Thalmor will always underestimate, it is their weakness. Arrogance will always be their downfall.

Obviously they didn't underestimate the Blades. Arrogance is the foe of the Empire & Stormcloaks as well.

Everyone is preparing for round two, people kill each other all across Tamriel. Skyrim's Civil War is a distraction, nothing will stop the main event coming. Jarl Igmund's insecurities are no concern of the Legion.

People killing each other in the non-Imperial provinces might not matter, but for the next round manpower does count a lot.

"Because the Dominion is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone."

In the end you depend on your people. If the Thalmor follow their pattern of causing well-planned coup d'etats it's game over for the Empire.

The people will rise up, they'll join the armies that oppose the Dominion. Just as the Thalmor were completely unaware of a certain Bosmer? Losing their touch it seems.

Please, that was just a bartender. What damage could he have done, serve ill-gotten wine? The Empire was unaware of high ranked offcials being pro-Thalmor.

It’s much worse in Valenwood—our supplies are no longer reliably getting to the rebels there. Sixty were caught and executed last week, along with four of our own men. There’s a leak we [the Penitus Oculatus] don’t know about, someplace. They know too much about our movements.

The Empire has many spies. Making the Nobles comfortable? They don't much like the Thalmor, they're all playing the game.

Except Erikur. And Siddgeir. And all the other people like Proventus Avenicci that are easily impressed by riches.

Don't presume my dear, the daggers here are quite as sharp.

Meh, I couldn't think of any argument that couldn't be misunderstood in some inappropriate manner of innuendo.

There will be some issues to be sure, but people have to return north at one point. Won't be the first time the Legions have forced the Reachmen to bend the knee.

Not if there's no Legion left to get them to bend their knee.

The Imperials have conquered more than they have made deals. Morrowind would have been able to be conquered by the Legion, it would have been bloody, but they would have defeated the Dunmer who were quite weak and divided.

About the Tribunal not being able to defend Morrowind:
"They did use their powers to defend Morrowind from the Imperial army for four score years. Not bad. Would they have eventually triumphed? Not if Almalexia’s vision in the first book was accurate, which Vivec didn’t seem to doubt it."

>_> Alright, touché. But Morrowind isn't the Dominion. Even if you miraculously managed to get through Valenwood you'd never get across the sea to Alinor.

Ah, but Nirn is a wheel. Things tend to happen in cycles.

Things like humans being under elven rule, just like with the Direnni or Ayleids, exactly.

Must be sad for the Thalmor that they could never achieve what every mankind Empire has.

The Thalmor in its current forum have only existed a few centuries, give them some more time.

Life in Tamriel is interesting in that regard, what is and what could be. All things are changed by the minor twists of fate.

Minor off topic; as if real life was any different in that regard.

Though luckily the Thalmor take prisoners, I'm sure the next TES they will regret taking a certain prisoner.

Pfft, pure speculation.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Until now perhaps.

I've yet to see even a slight expansion they've been able to hold onto.

Obviously they didn't underestimate the Blades. Arrogance is the foe of the Empire & Stormcloaks as well.

Really? And yet Esbern escape due to their underestimations, and Delphine escaped assassination due to underestimations. Arrogance is the foe of the Thalmor, who boast so much about victory that they're so desperate to get weapons for their armies.

People killing each other in the non-Imperial provinces might not matter, but for the next round manpower does count a lot.

Empire has suffered far greater losses and still managed to conquer more than the Aldmeri Dominion.

In the end you depend on your people. If the Thalmor follow their pattern of causing well-planned coup d'etats it's game over for the Empire.

Yet their efforts in Skyrim work against them, Ulfric is no friend to the Thalmor. Stormcloak or Imperial, you turn them against you.

Their well-planned coup in Valenwood was planned for a very long time, I wonder how well they'll pull another out when they could barely control the one in Skyrim. Had it not been for the Dragon, the Legion would have won. They're onto the Thalmor's game.

Please, that was just a bartender. What damage could he have done, serve ill-gotten wine? The Empire was unaware of high ranked offcials being pro-Thalmor.

Besides smuggle in weapons and aid the Blades?

It’s much worse in Valenwood—our supplies are no longer reliably getting to the rebels there. Sixty were caught and executed last week, along with four of our own men. There’s a leak we [the Penitus Oculatus] don’t know about, someplace. They know too much about our movements.

Please, you lot couldn't even find Delphine. They knew too much in Valenwood, to be sure. They're starting to make more and more mistakes due to arrogance and underestimation. Perhaps there is new leadership who are too inept to give commands.

Except Erikur.

Oh really? http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00069f27

You're taken in too easily by words you wish to hear, has the art of politics become lost on you so? You believe a man to be friendly, when he's supplying the Imperial army with large numbers of weapons from the Argonians? He's also willing to sell to Stormcloaks if they can meet the price, so he's arming your foes.

And Siddgeir.

A fool who doesn't do anything around his Hold, where everything is controlled by his Steward and Housecarl.

And all the other people like Proventus Avenicci that are easily impressed by riches.

The man whose advice is rarely listened to? By all means, impress the Stewards of Jarls. It isn't they who you'll be fighting.

Not if there's no Legion left to get them to bend their knee.

At this rate there will be no Dominion left. At your highest peak and you blew it on a gamble. A weak and unprepared Empire managed to make the costs so very high. Thalmor gained what? No lands, no expansion. Just a Talos Ban that only caused problems in Skyrim, and is barely enforced by the Empire.

About the Tribunal not being able to defend Morrowind:
"They did use their powers to defend Morrowind from the Imperial army for four score years. Not bad. Would they have eventually triumphed? Not if Almalexia’s vision in the first book was accurate, which Vivec didn’t seem to doubt it."

>_> Alright, touché. But Morrowind isn't the Dominion.

Against the legions massed west of Silgrad Tower and Kragenmoor, and the legions west of Blacklight and Cormaris View, Morrowind had pitifully small militias stiffened by small companies of Redoran mercenaries and elite units of house nobles and Temple Ordinators and Armigers. Further complicating matters was the refusal of Indoril, Dres, Hlaalu, and Telvanni to garrison the western borders; Indoril and Dres proposed, rather than defend the western border, instead to withdraw to the interior and fight a guerilla war. With Hlaalu advocating accommodation, and Telvanni remaining neutral, Redoran therefore faced the prospect of standing alone against the Empire.

Even if you miraculously managed to get through Valenwood you'd never get across the sea to Alinor.

Oh? You Thalmor have made so many enemies. Nords, Imperials, Redguards... Even the Psijic Order wouldn't mind seeing your downfall. Wouldn't be the first time they could be convinced to destroy a certain fleet.

The Aldmeri navy isn't as invincible as they were.

Things like humans being under elven rule, just like with the Direnni or Ayleids, exactly.

Where are the Direnni and Ayleids now?

The Thalmor in its current forum have only existed a few centuries, give them some more time.

They need time do they? Think they've had enough time, centuries you say? How long did it take the First, Second and Third Empires? Decades? Please, perhaps we'll give you some tips. Maybe a "Conquer Tamriel for Dummies"?

Pfft, pure speculation.

Though quite the commonplace of Tamriel. Prisoner turned hero? Oh, how the Thalmor will regret it... So close, yet so very far.

 

[Ancano]

Until now perhaps.

I've yet to see even a slight expansion they've been able to hold onto.

Obviously they didn't underestimate the Blades. Arrogance is the foe of the Empire & Stormcloaks as well.

Really? And yet Esbern escape due to their underestimations, and Delphine escaped assassination due to underestimations. Arrogance is the foe of the Thalmor, who boast so much about victory that they're so desperate to get weapons for their armies.

People killing each other in the non-Imperial provinces might not matter, but for the next round manpower does count a lot.

Empire has suffered far greater losses and still managed to conquer more than the Aldmeri Dominion.

In the end you depend on your people. If the Thalmor follow their pattern of causing well-planned coup d'etats it's game over for the Empire.

Yet their efforts in Skyrim work against them, Ulfric is no friend to the Thalmor. Stormcloak or Imperial, you turn them against you.

Their well-planned coup in Valenwood was planned for a very long time, I wonder how well they'll pull another out when they could barely control the one in Skyrim. Had it not been for the Dragon, the Legion would have won. They're onto the Thalmor's game.

Please, that was just a bartender. What damage could he have done, serve ill-gotten wine? The Empire was unaware of high ranked offcials being pro-Thalmor.

Besides smuggle in weapons and aid the Blades?

It’s much worse in Valenwood—our supplies are no longer reliably getting to the rebels there. Sixty were caught and executed last week, along with four of our own men. There’s a leak we [the Penitus Oculatus] don’t know about, someplace. They know too much about our movements.

Please, you lot couldn't even find Delphine. They knew too much in Valenwood, to be sure. They're starting to make more and more mistakes due to arrogance and underestimation. Perhaps there is new leadership who are too inept to give commands.

Except Erikur.

Oh really? http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00069f27

You're taken in too easily by words you wish to hear, has the art of politics become lost on you so? You believe a man to be friendly, when he's supplying the Imperial army with large numbers of weapons from the Argonians? He's also willing to sell to Stormcloaks if they can meet the price, so he's arming your foes.

And Siddgeir.

A fool who doesn't do anything around his Hold, where everything is controlled by his Steward and Housecarl.

And all the other people like Proventus Avenicci that are easily impressed by riches.

The man whose advice is rarely listened to? By all means, impress the Stewards of Jarls. It isn't they who you'll be fighting.

Not if there's no Legion left to get them to bend their knee.

At this rate there will be no Dominion left. At your highest peak and you blew it on a gamble. A weak and unprepared Empire managed to make the costs so very high. Thalmor gained what? No lands, no expansion. Just a Talos Ban that only caused problems in Skyrim, and is barely enforced by the Empire.

About the Tribunal not being able to defend Morrowind:
"They did use their powers to defend Morrowind from the Imperial army for four score years. Not bad. Would they have eventually triumphed? Not if Almalexia’s vision in the first book was accurate, which Vivec didn’t seem to doubt it."

>_> Alright, touché. But Morrowind isn't the Dominion.

Against the legions massed west of Silgrad Tower and Kragenmoor, and the legions west of Blacklight and Cormaris View, Morrowind had pitifully small militias stiffened by small companies of Redoran mercenaries and elite units of house nobles and Temple Ordinators and Armigers. Further complicating matters was the refusal of Indoril, Dres, Hlaalu, and Telvanni to garrison the western borders; Indoril and Dres proposed, rather than defend the western border, instead to withdraw to the interior and fight a guerilla war. With Hlaalu advocating accommodation, and Telvanni remaining neutral, Redoran therefore faced the prospect of standing alone against the Empire.

Even if you miraculously managed to get through Valenwood you'd never get across the sea to Alinor.

Oh? You Thalmor have made so many enemies. Nords, Imperials, Redguards... Even the Psijic Order wouldn't mind seeing your downfall. Wouldn't be the first time they could be convinced to destroy a certain fleet.

The Aldmeri navy isn't as invincible as they were.

Things like humans being under elven rule, just like with the Direnni or Ayleids, exactly.

Where are the Direnni and Ayleids now?

The Thalmor in its current forum have only existed a few centuries, give them some more time.

They need time do they? Think they've had enough time, centuries you say? How long did it take the First, Second and Third Empires? Decades? Please, perhaps we'll give you some tips. Maybe a "Conquer Tamriel for Dummies"?

Pfft, pure speculation.

Though quite the commonplace of Tamriel. Prisoner turned hero? Oh, how the Thalmor will regret it... So close, yet so very far.

Dominion caused more damage and created more division against the Empire in the 200 yrs of it's current existence than you have accomplished against our long term goals in said time. Empire of the Mede's though larger, is second rate behind the Dominion. This Empire does not have what it takes to neither destroy the Dominion or undo the plan that's been set into motion. Even should the Empire win the Civil War, this Empire will not last, not for long. And certainly will not survive another war, even should you win. Not with this much civil unrest and certainly not in the position that it's in now economically.

It would be easier for everyone if The Empire released Skyrim and Highrock, let Cyrodil become a Dominion client state. Your Provinces are already resisting your laws and the WGC, which Cyrodil accepted. Furthermore, once the Dominion reaches Cyrodil, we don't care. Intelligence can handle the rest. The Stormcloaks and Bretons can go about their business as long as they don't interfere. Redguards have already signed an agreement with us. It's not the Dominion destroying your homes and burning your fields.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

You don't know how war works it seems. Even if this upcoming war isn't fought in Cyrodiil, it will still have major consequences on the Empire. Hadnt you said yourself you don't think this Empire will survive this war?

Look at the Tiber Wars, probably the largest peroids of warfare in Tamriel. Empire still had time to deal with many of the internal things, and they were larger back then with more issues to address. Of course war will have major consequences, but they do also bring some benefits. Metal workers have a booming trade in Skyrim's Civil War. Wood workers also, the mills are doing a lot of business.

Even if the fighting never touches Cyrodiil (highly unlikely) everything will be put into this war effort. In relatively modern times we've seen "total war" completely disrupt nations. So no, having a guild or two doesn't make all your problems go away.

Many things will be diverted to the war effort, but the Empire can't just halt everything or else it would fall apart. You believe that Skyrim won't be able to rebuild under the Empire, yet you think the Stormcloaks can rebuild without the Empire's resources.

The Stormcloaks are focusing everything into a war effort, are they not? Last time I checked they were seeking on creating nine different armies. So everything would be put into this, correct?

They are paying for the war effort with Skyrim's resources. If you really want to assert your dominance that badly it could at least come from your own pocket.

Skyrim is part of the Empire, so I'm unsure of what you mean? Cyrodiil and High Rock should pay for everything? That wouldn't make much sense since the war is in Skyrim and using local resources is logical? Gets to the front lines quicker, instead of waiting weeks for stuff to arrive from outside of Skyrim.

The Legion is using resources and things from outside of Skyrim too, taxing trading vessels from other provinces. There are supply routes for the Legion coming into Skyrim from other parts of the Empire.

There is no reason to remain a part of the Empire anymore from a Nord perspective.

Yet there are many Nords who still support the Empire, Rikke being a major one.

"I love this land and her people. So do all the Nords that serve the Empire."

They need Skyrim to preserve an Empire outside of Cyrodiil and the resources it has.

Preserving the Empire, is a reason. But, they're not simply taking, taking and taking. Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people.

They don't see the Nords as equals (talk to any legate in the game)

Don't see Nords as equals? How do you figure that? The Second in Command of the Legion in Skyrim is a Nord?

What do they say? "The Nord Kings, oh excuse me "Jarls" can't seem to control their own people, so the Legion has stepped in to restore order" that type of thing?

and I'd rather see the land governed by people who know the land.

There aren't any foreign rulers, the only person is Tullius who gives most political duties to Legate Rikke.

Both sides are governed by people who know the land.

If there has ever been a time when the provinces need to look out for themselves it's now. It's what Cyrodiil, Hammerfell, and Black Marsh are doing, and I applaud them for it. It's Skyrim's turn now.

Now is the time for the provinces to come together, not seek to do their own thing. After the Great War is dealt with, by all means go off and do as you please.

If the Giants matter more to you than the brave Nords rotting in the basement of a Thalmor fort at the moment...

They're innocent, of course the Nords matter also. But one life is no better than the other.

TALOS. WAS. OUTLAWED.

YES. HE. WAS. Feeling better? The Empire did not come to such an agreement easily.

There is no amount of money or whatever else the Empire provides that will make up for that. It was no little disagreement. The Imperials never seem to grasp the importance of this matter.
"Cheer up, there are still 8 left!"

People are rightly angry for not being allowed to openly worship Talos. Are you Stormcloaks going about it in the right away? Causing such a divide among the various races, quite open to enslaving a populace because they wanted the same independence?

Imperials are very religious too, it wasn't a simple thing to do. It isn't like they just decided "Yeah, we'll ban Talos cause we HATE THE NORDS!!! Whoo Tyrants4Lyf".

So the Imperials are doing all this running around to save the other races from themselves huh? I think I'm starting to see what Mikulas was getting at. The Nords can take care of themselves, you just worry about Cyrodiil now.

Not at all, Imperials have their faults too. The Empire and the Legion are not one race, or one single culture.

I don't see what you're all defensive about, you and Mikulas. Are there not Nords in the Legion? Do the Stormcloaks not believe their forces are required to restore order to the province?

Haven't you said that the Stormcloaks will deal with bandits and forsworn in time? Is that not bringing order? I'm sure the Nords can take care of themselves, I just don't believe the Stormcloaks are the ones to do that.

"You just worry about Cyrodiil now"... I'm sure that is just what the Thalmor want, divided provinces, not caring about each other.

"Sworn enemies of the Empire and everything it stands for." - Delphine

Tiber Wars did not go over completely smoothly. They lost the Imperial City probably from having resources tied up elsewhere, an inexperienced legion had to be sent in to put down the rebellion.

I'm saying Skyrim is likely to end up fending for itself anyway if the Empire is off fighting the Dominion, they'll have a small police force left so we might see another Forsworn incident, if not a second Nord rebellion. If Skyrim can't get access to the Empire's resources what's the point of having the Empire in charge?

I just don't see how Skyrim will be able to reap the benefits of being a part of the Empire during and especially in the aftermath of the next war (especially if the empire doesn't stand anymore).

Rikke is an individual. This is a pivotal moment for the Nordic people, and the Imperial government who first outlawed Talos, has deployed a general and legate who know almost nothing about the province they make claim to.

Rikke is "supporting the new governments". Doesn't exactly sound like she has a great ton of influence. And Of course Cyrodiil has the final say.

No one in Cyrodiil is rebelling about it, and there is an abundunce of evidence Talos is much more important to Nords than Imperials. It's a very basic freedom removed, and in the future it opens the door for Cyrodiil to do whatever they wish, because the WGC will have proven its all ok.

What does it matter if Skyrim and Cyrodiil are united? You've said it yourself, the Empire doesn't plan to anything with Skyrim military wise.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

TALOS. WAS. OUTLAWED.

Well, none of my characters worship Talos. My nords respect Nature and animals, including Dragons.

Don't mind if I edit a Game of Thrones quote for a moment.

"Do you know what the Stormcloak belief is? It's the Many-Headed Talos, a story we agree to tell each other over and over, until we forget that it's a lie."

Tiber Septim, "Talos of Atmora" (Impossible as the last ship from Atmora came hundreds of years before) the founder of the Septim Dynasty that isn't even descended from him. Talos the Nord, Talos Stormcrown... With his Nord (Breton) brother Agnorith whom the Septim bloodline stems from. Funny enough, Tiber aged like a Breton and outlived his own son (people take on the race of the mother).

Talos who became the Ninth Divine for creating the Empire, yet to revere him, the Stormcloaks tear apart the very thing that made him a God.

So when you create your Nord, you must ask. Do you revere and respect the man, or blindly worship the lie that forced so many into service without question?

In a way the Thalmor are right, what we did was heresy. We're just too afraid to admit we ended up believing our own fabrication.

Honestly I would rather see Nords focus more on Shor and Kyne. Talos represents Shor in a way, which helps.

But you're wrong if you think Nords love him because he was Tiber Septim. A young warrior raised in Skyrim, lead an army, defeated the Reachmen, spoke with the Greybeards, mastered the Thu'um, and destroyed the Dominion, and eventually became a god.

He's a source of pride for the Nords, he's Skyrim personified in many ways.

Although of course they deserve the freedom to worship whoever they wish. Hell, if it was Dagon it's their right.

But Heimsker is right.

"Today they take away your faith, but what of tomorrow?"

It opens the door to anything. Letting the WGC go unpunished could lead to dark days under the Empire.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Tiber Wars did not go over completely smoothly. They lost the Imperial City probably from having resources tied up elsewhere, an inexperienced legion had to be sent in to put down the rebellion.

Does any war going over smoothly? Tiber's problems with the Moth Priests were an internal thing. Losing the Imperial City to internal revolt is different to not having resources to defend the city.

I'm saying Skyrim is likely to end up fending for itself anyway if the Empire is off fighting the Dominion, they'll have a small police force left so we might see another Forsworn incident, if not a second Nord rebellion. If Skyrim can't get access to the Empire's resources what's the point of having the Empire in charge?

Except your argument is the same on the Stormcloaks, they'll fend for themselves with little forces left behind as they went off to fight a war. Skyrim has access to the Empire's resources, and they will get more when the war dies down. If the war takes a turn for the worse, the Nords will be no different to how they are now.

I just don't see how Skyrim will be able to reap the benefits of being a part of the Empire during and especially in the aftermath of the next war (especially if the empire doesn't stand anymore).

They share resources, it is still better than standing alone. Skyrim reaps the benefits even now, in the middle of Civil War and while Cyrodiil was in ruins and rebuilding. Resources and food still came, wealth still came. Either bribes or compensation for lives lost, doesn't matter what the gold was for. Better to use it to make your people's lives better than to turn it away out of pride.

Rikke is an individual. This is a pivotal moment for the Nordic people, and the Imperial government who first outlawed Talos, has deployed a general and legate who know almost nothing about the province they make claim to.

Rikke knows a lot about the province? As much as Galmar and Ulfric, they were all good friends. If she was Stormcloak, would you still claim she knows almost nothing?

General Tullius listens to Rikke, hears her advice and often follows through with it.

Rikke is "supporting the new governments". Doesn't exactly sound like she has a great ton of influence.

Second in Command of the Legion, while Skyrim is under Martial Law? Sounds like her influence is acting High Queen for those regions.

And Of course Cyrodiil has the final say.

In what? They don't have a say in the Moot, they don't really get involved in much. Skyrim runs itself, as does High Rock and all provinces there were in the Empire. Cyrodiil doesn't hand hold everything people do, not even close. Skyrim is not this bitch of Cyrodiil that you Stormcloaks try to make out, they've had the final say on things for Cyrodiil. They've had Cyrodiil by the balls in quite a few political situations.

No one in Cyrodiil is rebelling about it,

You have no idea what is going on in Cyrodiil, so it is hard to say what they're doing. There is unrest there, and Cyrodiil was very big on Talos.

and there is an abundunce of evidence Talos is much more important to Nords than Imperials.

The respect and admiration Imperials had for Tiber Septim is nothing compared to the veneration they have for him as a god of the Nine Divines, regardless of the heresies often espoused about him. His accomplishments inspired them to believe they could do anything they set their mind to. - Lore Imperial

It's a very basic freedom removed, and in the future it opens the door for Cyrodiil to do whatever they wish, because the WGC will have proven its all ok.

Skyrim's High King agreed to the White-Gold Concordat. There is no basic freedom, Skyrim isn't a democracy. Istlod's word was law, as is Ulfric's under the Stormcloaks.

Cyrodiil does not control what Skyrim does, they only served the Emperor. Not Cyrodiil. The Elder Council does do most treaties and legislation, but the provinces were represented and the Kings and Queens of the provinces had to agree.

You're really stripping away the interesting politics of Tamriel and of the Empire. You make out it is Cyrodiil telling them to jump and the provinces asking how high... Politics, especially medieval politics is not like that.

Cyrodiil may be the seat of the Empire, but they do not control the provinces. They all bicker and debate, bribe and arrange marriages. Jarls make blood alliances between Jarls, Counts between Counts etc.

What does it matter if Skyrim and Cyrodiil are united? You've said it yourself, the Empire doesn't plan to anything with Skyrim military wise.

What does it matter if Skyrim remains under the Empire? I'm sure the Legion's would still conscript and train those willing to join. The White-Gold Concordat will be out the window and the Talos ban lifted.

Don't allow Ulfric to use a valid cause for a power grab, instead of trying to do things the peaceful way and a political way. Ulfric starts a war, his first act is violence. Kills his High King to bring the Empire down upon Skyrim, and to make sure there is no going back for his supporters.

Skyrim should be ruled by the wise, not by the strength of your sword arm.

"Unfortunately, a sword can't repair damaged buildings, feed hungry people or undo years of prejudice."

 

[DrunkenMage]

I know you probably don't think much of Elisif, she is young inexperienced. She never asked for this, Ulfric forced her into this position where she has to lead her people. She doesn't hide away from it, she didn't say "This is too hard!" and simply give up.

Elisif has the makings of a good Queen, she can grow into something that Skyrim needs. She cares for her people and she listens to their problems.

Her Court is quite good.

Erikur, while he isn't the most honorable Nord or selfless. He has a good head for business, he knows how to make coin. Skyrim will need lots of wealth.

Bryling, cares about honor and respects the Stormcloaks. Not afraid to speak up in Court, tell her Jarl how she feels. Elisif listens to her about defense, to look for ways to defend the Hold. She is a great woman, and would even be an amazing Jarl. What better advisor could there be?

Falk Fire-Beard, he is quite wise and does well. He is able to provide fairly solid counsel, and admit when he is mistaken. He holds the most power in Court, and he is lovers with Bryling. Both very solid people to help rule the province.

Ulfric has Galmar and his Steward. One who is quite extreme, would gladly kill rather than talk. Has no real political skill, and is more General than ruler. The Steward who doesn't do any official, and while he is a good man he could not keep Ulfric from being Ulfric. In fact if the Imperials win, he will mention not missing Ulfric's temper. So having Mr Cranky-pants as High King might not be the best course of action.

Skyrim needs a calm ruler, not someone with fits of rage at his court. At the very least Ulfric needs to meditate a bit, find inner peace. Learn to calm his Nordic tits.

Ulfric is a great leader, tough and loyal to his men. Good for the battlefield and planning war, but swords do not fix buildings or feed people. Ulfric is set in his ways, Elisif is keen on learning.

Better the ruler that heeds counsel, learns and changes to suit the needs of the people and the country. Than the ruler who changes the country to suit him.

 

[Raijin]

The thousands of Forsworn actively mobilizing for war in the hills surrounding Markarth might disagree with your 'assessment'. Perhaps if everyone on your side wasn't so busy providing Ulfric with 'lip service' all the time communication would improve.

Keep in mind, I really have no problem with your rebellion against the Empire, Empire needs to be taken to task. It's just painful to watch Ulfric continually embarrass himself and everyone else who signed on with him. He's too 'predictable' too clingy and his battered emotional state is holding him back. Galmar should be running things himself, however everyone has poured their heart into the thought of Ulfric.

For someone who heavily supports the Thalmor shouldn't really be talking about how it's painful to watch someone continuing to embarrass themselves when it's the Thalmor that does their fair share of embarrassing themselves throughout Tamerial. Theirs two high elves at the colleges who don't get along with each other, and theirs 2 high elves women siblings in solitude who I swear is suffers from a severe case of PMS 24/7. These high elven women in Skyrim is proof enough that you should never trust a woman that bleeds for a week and doesn't die.

No Galmar should not be running things himself as he has a military like mentality, and have little to no political background. Ulfric is the right man for the job regardless of what you think.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Ulfric is the right man for the job regardless of what you think.

Winning the throne and keeping the throne are two very different things. Ulfric fought a rebellion, leads the Stormcloaks to whatever glory they seek. Does it make him fit to rule? What has he ever ruled?

He went to the Greybeards when he was ten years of age, he went to a Great War and was broken. He returned to Skyrim, he fights once more, spent many more years in a cell. He goes home to Windhelm filled with anger and grief and his new war begins.

Ulfric is a warrior, violence and suffering has been the majority of his life.

"I think the war is just an excuse. If it does end there will be a new reason and a new place."

Men of violence are often the worst rulers in peace. Especially those known to have a temper. This isn't the Skyrim of the First Era, where Warrior-Kings would be fighting all the time within Skyrim or raiding provinces. Swords do not feed his people, heal the sick, plant crops and rebuild shattered lives.

The sword and his anger are all he knows.

 

[Raijin]

Winning the throne and keeping the throne are two very different things. Ulfric fought a rebellion, leads the Stormcloaks to whatever glory they seek. Does it make him fit to rule? What has he ever ruled?

He went to the Greybeards when he was ten years of age, he went to a Great War and was broken. He returned to Skyrim, he fights once more, spent many more years in a cell. He goes home to Windhelm filled with anger and grief and his new war begins.

Ulfric is a warrior, violence and suffering has been the majority of his life.

"I think the war is just an excuse. If it does end there will be a new reason and a new place."

That is just your opinion Drunkenmage. It isn't facts. Ulfric is not a violent kind of man. He is driven to commit violent acts for the purpose to protect his homeland against a dying Empire... an Empire that essentially sold Skyrim out to the Dominion by allowing them to have anti-Talos patrols on the roads to root out Talos worshipers because of the WGC.

Galmar: "Balgruuf won't give us a straight answer."
Ulfric: "He's a true Nord. He'll come around."
Galmar: "Don't be so sure of that. We've intercepted couriers from Solitude. The Empire's putting a great deal of pressure on Whiterun."
Ulfric: "And what would you have me do?"
Galmar: "If he's not with us, he's against us."
Ulfric: "He knows that. They all know that."
Galmar: "How long are you going to wait?"
Ulfric: "You think I need to send Balgruuf a stronger message."
Galmar: "If by message you mean shoving a sword through his gullet."
Ulfric: "Taking his city and leaving him in disgrace would make a more powerful statement, don't you think?"
Galmar: "So we're ready to start this war in earnest then?"
Ulfric: "Soon."
Galmar: "I still say you should take them all out like you did Deadking Torygg."
Ulfric: "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies."
Galmar: "We're ready when you are."
Ulfric: "Things hinge on Whiterun. If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better. But if not..."
Galmar: "The people are behind you."
Ulfric: "Many I fear still need convincing."
Galmar: "Then let them die with their false kings."
Ulfric: "We've been soldiers a long time. We know the price of freedom. The people are still weighing things in their hearts."
Galmar: "What's left of Skyrim to wager?"
Ulfric: "They have families to think of."
Galmar: "How many of their sons and daughters follow your banner? We are their families."
Ulfric: "Well put, friend. Tell me, Galmar, why do you fight for me?"
Galmar: "I'd follow you into the depths of Oblivion, you know that."
Ulfric: "Yes, but why do you fight? If not for me, what then?"
Galmar: "I'll die before elves dictate the fates of men. Are we not one in this?"
Ulfric: "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's [sic] names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."
Galmar: "Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed."
Ulfric: "I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn."
Galmar: "Aye. But in the meantime, we have a war to plan."

Ulfric didn't wanted to invade Whiterun, but was obligated to do it to gain more power in Skyrim over the Imperial legion as they were eying on Whiterun themselves. Do you not see how upset the man became when you return with his axe? The pure disappointment of finding out that Jarl Balgruuf sided with the Imperial legion.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Ulfric_Stormcloak

Once you return to the Palace of Kings along with Ulfric's axe, he will exclaim: "Then I was wrong about him." Ulfric will then begin to discuss an attack on Whiterun with Galmar:

Ulfric: "You were right Galmar."
Galmar: "Again?"
Ulfric: "I'm in no mood to joke."
Galmar: "Give the word, my lord, and Whiterun is yours."
Ulfric: "Whiterun is only a means to an end."
Galmar: "I've toured our camps. We're ready, Ulfric... Whenever you are."
Ulfric: "Is any man ever ready to give the order that will mean the deaths of many."
Galmar: "No. But neither is every man able to give that order when he must. But you are that man, Ulfric. You've been that man before, and you'll be him again. And these men and women - they call themselves Stormcloaks because they believe in you... They're the meanest, toughest sons of bitches Skyrim has to offer. And they want this. They want this as much as you do. Perhaps they want it more."
Ulfric: "You're certain we're ready? Whiterun's army will no doubt be bolstered with Legionnares [sic]. And those walls around Whiterun are old, but they still stand."
Galmar: "We're ready. And I might be old myself, but I'll kick those damn walls down with my bare feet! - if you would only ask me to do it!"
Ulfric: "And I'm sure you could do it, too. Alright. This is it."
Galmar: "Yes!"
Ulfric: "Send the word. "A new day is dawning and the sun rises over Whiterun.""
Galmar: "Aye, and the sons of Skyrim will greet that dawn teeth and swords flashing."
Ulfric: "So it begins."

Men of violence are often the worst rulers in peace. Especially those known to have a temper. This isn't the Skyrim of the First Era, where Warrior-Kings would be fighting all the time within Skyrim or raiding provinces. Swords do not feed his people, heal the sick, plant crops and rebuild shattered lives.

The sword and his anger are all he knows.

I honestly don't know how to really answer to that one. Seriously Drunkenmage. You need to stop pulling on my leg. I don't know if you're being serious with me, or trolling me. either way I will end it off by saying that Skyrim needs a strong ruler right now... a Ruler that will fight to protect her people, especially when the Great war v2.0 is not that far off, and with Skyrim in the crosshairs of the Thalmor swords are completely necessary to help protect those who can provide food, heal the sick, plant crops and help rebuilds shattered lives.