Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

He's often sent to places that need fixing... Is there an actual quote saying he's the go-to guy for restoring order? There'd be an awful lot of fixing up to be doing in the last few years for the Empire.

"I'm originally from Cyrodiil, sent here at the request of the Emperor himself. I'm often ordered to places with problems that need fixing. Now, while I'm certain this is all terribly interesting to you, I have important matters to attend."

The Empire (and Hammerfell) blocking them, that and a field of ice (something High Elves from Alinor don't have a lot of experience with). Impractical for the Thalmor to spend that much time up there with no base of operations, not to mention they probably wouldn't even take an independent Skyrim seriously anyway. Ulfric takes the Thalmor very seriously. He fears them, and therefore will take whatever steps he can to combat them.

The Thalmor don't like their plans being messed. They will take whoever wins, very seriously. They don't need to invade, just cause disruptions. Imagine if the Forsworn suddenly were given good weapons and gear. Or bandits funded massively.

The Thalmor have only ever used direct force once. Not sure why Stormcloaks assume they will try invade with an army. In any event, they're blocked by the Empire's Military.

Of course it's not impossible, but the losses would far out weigh the gains. I'm not saying rebuilding won't be hard for the Stormcloaks. At least it will be led by people who will be prioritizing it ahead of anything else.

So the Jarls won't be prioritizing their lands? The Empire doesn't simply rule everything directly.

It's not just the terms of the WGC, it's the very notion of agreeing to it in the first place. First of all its essentially a surrender, not something generally smiled on in a culture who's paradise is reached by dying in battle. Secondly, it showed the Empire was willing to trade away the freedom of its subjects. Not agreeing or disagreeing with these but that is how the Nords view it.

Empire was only willing after four years of war, and the loss of three entire Legions + every other Legion under half strength. The Nord view is selfish, better that a few thousand warriors die in combat so that the hundreds of thousands of civilians be enslaved.

Because going to war is so new for the Nords right? The whole country would grind to a halt because they're off invading someone?

Going to war after a Civil War is new. The Empire didn't fund the war effort in Skyrim. Tullius used Skyrim's resources, Ulfric used Skyrim's resources. You Stormcloaks can barely keep order in Windhelm, don't have the manpower to investigate a murder. Majority of your ranks are from the Eastern Holds, you're spread thin. If war was to break out right after, to even scrape together an invasion force which most resources will have to be diverted to supply... You have to abandon Skyrim's protection.

If it were that simple they would've gone to war a long time ago. Lots more to it than "the legions are in position."

No they wouldn't. They were dealing with issues in Cyrodiil or many years. You're also assuming Titus Mede is willing to take action.

"Seems the Emperor realized his presence would necessitate a more direct role in the ongoing hostilities. A role he was, obviously, unwilling to take."

I doubt it's more than just a few Imperials with a complete lack of knowledge or respect for Nordic customs.
"Without us to keep order, the provinces would fall into barbarism and lawlessness; especially Skyrim."
A description of an obviously well respected and appreciated ally right there.

"The Legion's always been here. Without us to keep order, the provinces would fall into barbarism and lawlessness. Especially Skyrim. Take for example, Ulfric Stormcloak and his little "rebellion".

Tullius has never been to Skyrim, and respect is earned. If Tullius is a Colovian, it isn't surprising he has little respect for them at first. You Stormcloaks go on about how the Dunmer have to earn your respect, but bitch and moan because you're not handed respect by Tullius.

"Can't say I'll ever get used to the damn cold, or understand these Nords... but I've come to respect them. The harshness of Skyrim has a way of carving a man down to his true self."

He comes to respect you. Show me one respectful thing you Stormcloaks say about another province? Or any other race for that matter?

Stormcloaks:

Skyrim, Hammerfell, and Valenwood. One third of Tamriel. No attempts at reclaiming lost parts. All in half the time of the entire Septim dynasty.

Empire was attempting to gain Valenwood. They were supporting and funding rebels, had some of their own men inside Valenwood also. The Thalmor were just better.

Only the Stormcloaks seek to leave the Empire, not Skyrim. Wouldn't be a Civil War otherwise.

Stormcloaks =/= Skyrim.

It's not like it was the Empire giving Hammerfell the boot. Hammerfell wouldn't be a part of an Empire under the Concordat. If anything they broke off.

Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal.

Hammerfell wouldn't accept the peace, but they were forced out.

Wouldn't matter, she would end up being a puppet of the Empire for likely the remainder of her reign, with Tullius remaining in Skyrim.

She's the only Jarl that doesn't change. Tullius is only remaining in Skyrim for a few years, and it is Rikke who gets put as the de facto ruler under Imperial victory for awhile.

"Let's have parade!" Couldve been another you might of wanted to throw in there.

I said there is hope for her, not that she is perfect.

"Steward, I have an idea that might help to bolster the morale of our people in this difficult time. I think we shall have a grand parade, and let General Tullius march his troops from the Blue Palace to Castle Dour in all their finery."

 

[Raijin]

I'd be saying that if she was looking at me too. Elisif is just playing politics, you just put on a smile and say how nice it is to be with the Thalmor. Besides, Elenwen spares no expense on these parties, they're probably not bad once you get over the fact you're surrounded by Nazi Elves who wouldn't even think twice about slitting your throat and dumping you in the basement.

I fail to see how Elisif keeping up her courtesies makes her bad. Your "favorite" Queen Potema was the exact same when addressing the Elder Council, guess she was their thrall when she called them wise and impressive. Welcome to politics, maybe Potema can teach you on when and where you keep up appearances.

"You're no better at diplomacy than you are on the battlefield."​

You must be high on Skooma bro Elisif can't play politics no matter what she says in her court. Shes indulging herself in such luxury that the Thalmor is giving her that she doesn't truly know what shes getting herself into when she involves herself in Thalmor interests. Her and her traitorous imperial party friends all need a good shave by the headmens axe.

 

[DrunkenMage]

You must be high on Skooma bro Elisif can't play politics no matter what she says in her court. Shes indulging herself in such luxury that the Thalmor is giving her that she doesn't truly know what shes getting herself into when she involves herself in Thalmor interests. Her and her traitorous imperial party friends all need a good shave by the headmens axe.

Elisif would have been instructed on what she is and isn't allowed to say. She's proper, how she sits etc. Part of her character to keep her image.

Which traitor party friends?

"I have no more taste for Thalmor wine than I do for Thalmor company." "These Thalmor might not like to admit it, but as long as the Empire has Skyrim, the Empire has strength." "This gathering is nothing more than a boast." - Balgruuf

"Be mindful, for you walk among adders." "There are words spoken, and words unspoken. Beware these Thalmor, for they are adept in both languages." - Idgrod Ravencrone

"I feel that it's time to put aside the grievances of the past, and let peace and prosperity flourish between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion." (sanctimoniously -- he believes not a word of this claptrap) - Erikur

"I admit, I've never felt entirely at ease in the Thalmor embassy." - Igmund


Only two people mention anything slightly positive. Maven Black-Briar who says they leave her alone, she leaves them alone, and she respects their power. The other is Jarl Siddgeir... He's just an idiot with no influence.

Though I do like how Elisif mentions she can learn a lot from the people in the room. Indeed she can, the subtle art of politics.

"If your eyes and your ears are open and your mind is free of judgement and expectation, you might learn much in this chamber." - Idgrod Ravencrone​

Perhaps you should listen to Idgrod's advice. Maybe you can learn something.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

He's often sent to places that need fixing... Is there an actual quote saying he's the go-to guy for restoring order? There'd be an awful lot of fixing up to be doing in the last few years for the Empire.

"I'm originally from Cyrodiil, sent here at the request of the Emperor himself. I'm often ordered to places with problems that need fixing. Now, while I'm certain this is all terribly interesting to you, I have important matters to attend."

The Empire (and Hammerfell) blocking them, that and a field of ice (something High Elves from Alinor don't have a lot of experience with). Impractical for the Thalmor to spend that much time up there with no base of operations, not to mention they probably wouldn't even take an independent Skyrim seriously anyway. Ulfric takes the Thalmor very seriously. He fears them, and therefore will take whatever steps he can to combat them.

The Thalmor don't like their plans being messed. They will take whoever wins, very seriously. They don't need to invade, just cause disruptions. Imagine if the Forsworn suddenly were given good weapons and gear. Or bandits funded massively.

The Thalmor have only ever used direct force once. Not sure why Stormcloaks assume they will try invade with an army. In any event, they're blocked by the Empire's Military.

Of course it's not impossible, but the losses would far out weigh the gains. I'm not saying rebuilding won't be hard for the Stormcloaks. At least it will be led by people who will be prioritizing it ahead of anything else.

So the Jarls won't be prioritizing their lands? The Empire doesn't simply rule everything directly.

It's not just the terms of the WGC, it's the very notion of agreeing to it in the first place. First of all its essentially a surrender, not something generally smiled on in a culture who's paradise is reached by dying in battle. Secondly, it showed the Empire was willing to trade away the freedom of its subjects. Not agreeing or disagreeing with these but that is how the Nords view it.

Empire was only willing after four years of war, and the loss of three entire Legions + every other Legion under half strength. The Nord view is selfish, better that a few thousand warriors die in combat so that the hundreds of thousands of civilians be enslaved.

Because going to war is so new for the Nords right? The whole country would grind to a halt because they're off invading someone?

Going to war after a Civil War is new. The Empire didn't fund the war effort in Skyrim. Tullius used Skyrim's resources, Ulfric used Skyrim's resources. You Stormcloaks can barely keep order in Windhelm, don't have the manpower to investigate a murder. Majority of your ranks are from the Eastern Holds, you're spread thin. If war was to break out right after, to even scrape together an invasion force which most resources will have to be diverted to supply... You have to abandon Skyrim's protection.

If it were that simple they would've gone to war a long time ago. Lots more to it than "the legions are in position."

No they wouldn't. They were dealing with issues in Cyrodiil or many years. You're also assuming Titus Mede is willing to take action.

"Seems the Emperor realized his presence would necessitate a more direct role in the ongoing hostilities. A role he was, obviously, unwilling to take."

I doubt it's more than just a few Imperials with a complete lack of knowledge or respect for Nordic customs.
"Without us to keep order, the provinces would fall into barbarism and lawlessness; especially Skyrim."
A description of an obviously well respected and appreciated ally right there.

"The Legion's always been here. Without us to keep order, the provinces would fall into barbarism and lawlessness. Especially Skyrim. Take for example, Ulfric Stormcloak and his little "rebellion".

Tullius has never been to Skyrim, and respect is earned. If Tullius is a Colovian, it isn't surprising he has little respect for them at first. You Stormcloaks go on about how the Dunmer have to earn your respect, but bitch and moan because you're not handed respect by Tullius.

"Can't say I'll ever get used to the damn cold, or understand these Nords... but I've come to respect them. The harshness of Skyrim has a way of carving a man down to his true self."

He comes to respect you. Show me one respectful thing you Stormcloaks say about another province? Or any other race for that matter?

Stormcloaks:

Skyrim, Hammerfell, and Valenwood. One third of Tamriel. No attempts at reclaiming lost parts. All in half the time of the entire Septim dynasty.

Empire was attempting to gain Valenwood. They were supporting and funding rebels, had some of their own men inside Valenwood also. The Thalmor were just better.

Only the Stormcloaks seek to leave the Empire, not Skyrim. Wouldn't be a Civil War otherwise.

Stormcloaks =/= Skyrim.

It's not like it was the Empire giving Hammerfell the boot. Hammerfell wouldn't be a part of an Empire under the Concordat. If anything they broke off.

Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal.

Hammerfell wouldn't accept the peace, but they were forced out.

Wouldn't matter, she would end up being a puppet of the Empire for likely the remainder of her reign, with Tullius remaining in Skyrim.

She's the only Jarl that doesn't change. Tullius is only remaining in Skyrim for a few years, and it is Rikke who gets put as the de facto ruler under Imperial victory for awhile.

"Let's have parade!" Couldve been another you might of wanted to throw in there.

I said there is hope for her, not that she is perfect.

"Steward, I have an idea that might help to bolster the morale of our people in this difficult time. I think we shall have a grand parade, and let General Tullius march his troops from the Blue Palace to Castle Dour in all their finery."

Doesn't say he's the "go to guy" for restoring order. Plenty of places within the Empire that would've needed "fixing" within Tullius' career. He couldn't have handled them all.

They know the war can't continue forever. And if they openly mock the Empire right in front of prominent Imperials I don't see them taking an independent Skyrim seriously.

Dominion's strong point isn't wealth. And bandits will take whatever the Dominion gives them and head home. I've read the Forsworn hate the Dominion as well, so they probably wouldn't ally. And an independent Skyrim will see the defeat of the Forsworn as something that needs to be dealt with.

You can't bring down a country with espionage alone. And if the Dominion is snooping around Skyrim (a costly, impractical and difficult mission with little to gain) it's wasting time it could be spending in Hammerfell or Cyrodiil. Guess the Stormcloaks take one for the team.

They won't if the Empire's available. Theyll expect as much if the Empire just forcibly consolidated their rule over them. Besides, isn't that what the Empire provides? Financial security? Unfortunately if Motierre is trying to reorganize everything and prepare for the next Great War, and probably have to pay everyone off, and some Jarl walks up and asks for money there's not a chance in Oblivion he'll get it. Even worse chances if you say they'll make a scapegoat of the Nords for Mede's and Vici's deaths.

The Nord view was to keep fighting. Something that is often shown to have been possible. And you don't know Titus did it for the good of the Empire. He walked right into the Thalmor's trap of disuniting the Empire, something that should've been fairly obvious when he agreed to it, so I think it was a bit more self-serving.

Same can be said of Cyrodiil, with all the rioting breaking out recently. There are bandits in every province, who's to say while the Empire is invading the Dominion Cyrodiil doesn't fall into chaos because of the lack of guards? Give Skyrim a chance to get organized, no one has to go to Alinor right away.

And going through a massive leadership reorganization won't make it any easier to go to war. Whatever problems there were in Cyrodiil will probably resurface, if they even went away in the first place.

You've just proven my point. Skyrim and Cyrodiil aren't the inseparable friends they once were, and neither will be too sorry to see the other go.

This: "The Thalmor were just better."

The Empire of the Fourth Era is, for whatever reason, unable to combat the Thalmor.

Stormcloaks (pretty much) = Nords. Take away all the Imperial, Breton, Redguard and Elven Legionaires and suddenly Skyrim looks a lot more unified.
"That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause."

Hammerfell would accept peace that didn't so blatantly use them to pay for it.

And Tullius will be running the show anyway, so Elisif's potential would never be seen.

 

[Ancano]

He's often sent to places that need fixing... Is there an actual quote saying he's the go-to guy for restoring order? There'd be an awful lot of fixing up to be doing in the last few years for the Empire.

"I'm originally from Cyrodiil, sent here at the request of the Emperor himself. I'm often ordered to places with problems that need fixing. Now, while I'm certain this is all terribly interesting to you, I have important matters to attend."

The Empire (and Hammerfell) blocking them, that and a field of ice (something High Elves from Alinor don't have a lot of experience with). Impractical for the Thalmor to spend that much time up there with no base of operations, not to mention they probably wouldn't even take an independent Skyrim seriously anyway. Ulfric takes the Thalmor very seriously. He fears them, and therefore will take whatever steps he can to combat them.

The Thalmor don't like their plans being messed. They will take whoever wins, very seriously. They don't need to invade, just cause disruptions. Imagine if the Forsworn suddenly were given good weapons and gear. Or bandits funded massively.

The Thalmor have only ever used direct force once. Not sure why Stormcloaks assume they will try invade with an army. In any event, they're blocked by the Empire's Military.

Of course it's not impossible, but the losses would far out weigh the gains. I'm not saying rebuilding won't be hard for the Stormcloaks. At least it will be led by people who will be prioritizing it ahead of anything else.

So the Jarls won't be prioritizing their lands? The Empire doesn't simply rule everything directly.

It's not just the terms of the WGC, it's the very notion of agreeing to it in the first place. First of all its essentially a surrender, not something generally smiled on in a culture who's paradise is reached by dying in battle. Secondly, it showed the Empire was willing to trade away the freedom of its subjects. Not agreeing or disagreeing with these but that is how the Nords view it.

Empire was only willing after four years of war, and the loss of three entire Legions + every other Legion under half strength. The Nord view is selfish, better that a few thousand warriors die in combat so that the hundreds of thousands of civilians be enslaved.

Because going to war is so new for the Nords right? The whole country would grind to a halt because they're off invading someone?

Going to war after a Civil War is new. The Empire didn't fund the war effort in Skyrim. Tullius used Skyrim's resources, Ulfric used Skyrim's resources. You Stormcloaks can barely keep order in Windhelm, don't have the manpower to investigate a murder. Majority of your ranks are from the Eastern Holds, you're spread thin. If war was to break out right after, to even scrape together an invasion force which most resources will have to be diverted to supply... You have to abandon Skyrim's protection.

If it were that simple they would've gone to war a long time ago. Lots more to it than "the legions are in position."

No they wouldn't. They were dealing with issues in Cyrodiil or many years. You're also assuming Titus Mede is willing to take action.

"Seems the Emperor realized his presence would necessitate a more direct role in the ongoing hostilities. A role he was, obviously, unwilling to take."

I doubt it's more than just a few Imperials with a complete lack of knowledge or respect for Nordic customs.
"Without us to keep order, the provinces would fall into barbarism and lawlessness; especially Skyrim."
A description of an obviously well respected and appreciated ally right there.

"The Legion's always been here. Without us to keep order, the provinces would fall into barbarism and lawlessness. Especially Skyrim. Take for example, Ulfric Stormcloak and his little "rebellion".

Tullius has never been to Skyrim, and respect is earned. If Tullius is a Colovian, it isn't surprising he has little respect for them at first. You Stormcloaks go on about how the Dunmer have to earn your respect, but bitch and moan because you're not handed respect by Tullius.

"Can't say I'll ever get used to the damn cold, or understand these Nords... but I've come to respect them. The harshness of Skyrim has a way of carving a man down to his true self."

He comes to respect you. Show me one respectful thing you Stormcloaks say about another province? Or any other race for that matter?

Stormcloaks:

Skyrim, Hammerfell, and Valenwood. One third of Tamriel. No attempts at reclaiming lost parts. All in half the time of the entire Septim dynasty.

Empire was attempting to gain Valenwood. They were supporting and funding rebels, had some of their own men inside Valenwood also. The Thalmor were just better.

Only the Stormcloaks seek to leave the Empire, not Skyrim. Wouldn't be a Civil War otherwise.

Stormcloaks =/= Skyrim.

It's not like it was the Empire giving Hammerfell the boot. Hammerfell wouldn't be a part of an Empire under the Concordat. If anything they broke off.

Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal.

Hammerfell wouldn't accept the peace, but they were forced out.

Wouldn't matter, she would end up being a puppet of the Empire for likely the remainder of her reign, with Tullius remaining in Skyrim.

She's the only Jarl that doesn't change. Tullius is only remaining in Skyrim for a few years, and it is Rikke who gets put as the de facto ruler under Imperial victory for awhile.

"Let's have parade!" Couldve been another you might of wanted to throw in there.

I said there is hope for her, not that she is perfect.

"Steward, I have an idea that might help to bolster the morale of our people in this difficult time. I think we shall have a grand parade, and let General Tullius march his troops from the Blue Palace to Castle Dour in all their finery."

Doesn't say he's the "go to guy" for restoring order. Plenty of places within the Empire that would've needed "fixing" within Tullius' career. He couldn't have handled them all.

They know the war can't continue forever. And if they openly mock the Empire right in front of prominent Imperials I don't see them taking an independent Skyrim seriously.

Dominion's strong point isn't wealth. And bandits will take whatever the Dominion gives them and head home. I've read the Forsworn hate the Dominion as well, so they probably wouldn't ally. And an independent Skyrim will see the defeat of the Forsworn as something that needs to be dealt with.

You can't bring down a country with espionage alone. And if the Dominion is snooping around Skyrim (a costly, impractical and difficult mission with little to gain) it's wasting time it could be spending in Hammerfell or Cyrodiil. Guess the Stormcloaks take one for the team.

They won't if the Empire's available. Theyll expect as much if the Empire just forcibly consolidated their rule over them. Besides, isn't that what the Empire provides? Financial security? Unfortunately if Motierre is trying to reorganize everything and prepare for the next Great War, and probably have to pay everyone off, and some Jarl walks up and asks for money there's not a chance in Oblivion he'll get it. Even worse chances if you say they'll make a scapegoat of the Nords for Mede's and Vici's deaths.

The Nord view was to keep fighting. Something that is often shown to have been possible. And you don't know Titus did it for the good of the Empire. He walked right into the Thalmor's trap of disuniting the Empire, something that should've been fairly obvious when he agreed to it, so I think it was a bit more self-serving.

Same can be said of Cyrodiil, with all the rioting breaking out recently. There are bandits in every province, who's to say while the Empire is invading the Dominion Cyrodiil doesn't fall into chaos because of the lack of guards? Give Skyrim a chance to get organized, no one has to go to Alinor right away.

And going through a massive leadership reorganization won't make it any easier to go to war. Whatever problems there were in Cyrodiil will probably resurface, if they even went away in the first place.

You've just proven my point. Skyrim and Cyrodiil aren't the inseparable friends they once were, and neither will be too sorry to see the other go.

This: "The Thalmor were just better."

The Empire of the Fourth Era is, for whatever reason, unable to combat the Thalmor.

Stormcloaks (pretty much) = Nords. Take away all the Imperial, Breton, Redguard and Elven Legionaires and suddenly Skyrim looks a lot more unified.
"That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause."

Hammerfell would accept peace that didn't so blatantly use them to pay for it.

And Tullius will be running the show anyway, so Elisif's potential would never be seen.

Actually, it does say he is sent in to fix difficult areas. So yes, he is a "go to guy".

Thalmor are not just "better". A Steel Sword is "better" than an iron sword. An Elven Sword is "Superior". Different meaning(s) entirely.

Thalmor wealth isn't a strong point? Are you serious? Go play Civ 3 or 4 or perhaps 5 even... notice ALL the gold you make from cities along the coast or rivers. Think about this. Now go look at a map of Alinor.... then consider the entire Dominion. Dominion has mad bank son.

"You can't bring down a country with espionage alone. And if the Dominion is snooping around Skyrim (a costly, impractical and difficult mission with little to gain) it's wasting time it could be spending in Hammerfell or Cyrodiil. Guess the Stormcloaks take one for the team."

Really? And you decided this on your own. Wonderful. CIA would disagree with you on this. Furthermore, Thalmor already proved they can do this with the Empire. Obviously, if you had indeed read the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak, you would understand there are several reason for the Thalmor interaction(s) in Skyrim.

Please, if you hate the Thalmor, I can understand that. Don't pretend however to know us when you don't. Most users on here who discuss the Thalmor try and fit us into some general dark persona, like you're in the water pretending to swim, walking along the rocky coast. Thar be Sharks in them waters laddie.

~

Now, I have been away dealing with several matters and missed several of your earlier points.

The reason I'm still partial to the Empire is because they listen. They are repentant and very 'real' about their situation.

No I don't approve of Talos worship however, the Empire has admitted it was wrong and has basically apologized for the irrational actions of Tiber Septim.

I have no problem with the Empire. I expect the Empire will bounce back and challenge us again, but at least they are honest.

Stormcloaks however, refuse to see things for what they are. You disregard facts, you twist failures into success. You refuse to see the cause for what it is, blaming the ills of your cause and those of Ulfric solely on the Empire itself, or the Thalmor. If you cannot accept responsibility, you cannot lead.

What is Freedom if you can't allow others to be different than yourself? How long will a society be "Free" when it's members are not allowed to think differently, to allow their minds to evolve outside the "cause"? What good is "Freedom" from the Empire when you persecute and deny Freedoms to others who are not of the Empire?

Yeah, this is indeed a noble member of the Thalmor expressing these thoughts... but then again I'm not a "Freedom Fighter". I wear a black hat and don't pretend it's white.

 

[Raijin]

Elisif would have been instructed on what she is and isn't allowed to say. She's proper, how she sits etc. Part of her character to keep her image.

Which traitor party friends?

"I have no more taste for Thalmor wine than I do for Thalmor company." "These Thalmor might not like to admit it, but as long as the Empire has Skyrim, the Empire has strength." "This gathering is nothing more than a boast." - Balgruuf

"Be mindful, for you walk among adders." "There are words spoken, and words unspoken. Beware these Thalmor, for they are adept in both languages." - Idgrod Ravencrone

"I feel that it's time to put aside the grievances of the past, and let peace and prosperity flourish between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion." (sanctimoniously -- he believes not a word of this claptrap) - Erikur

"I admit, I've never felt entirely at ease in the Thalmor embassy." - Igmund


Only two people mention anything slightly positive. Maven Black-Briar who says they leave her alone, she leaves them alone, and she respects their power. The other is Jarl Siddgeir... He's just an idiot with no influence.

Though I do like how Elisif mentions she can learn a lot from the people in the room. Indeed she can, the subtle art of politics.

"If your eyes and your ears are open and your mind is free of judgement and expectation, you might learn much in this chamber." - Idgrod Ravencrone​

Perhaps you should listen to Idgrod's advice. Maybe you can learn something.

That is just pure speculation that doesn't hold any grounds. We don't truly know what was said to Elisif... or if anyone even spoken to her at all... unless if I had missed something?

 

[TheQahnaarin]

"I'm originally from Cyrodiil, sent here at the request of the Emperor himself. I'm often ordered to places with problems that need fixing. Now, while I'm certain this is all terribly interesting to you, I have important matters to attend."


The Thalmor don't like their plans being messed. They will take whoever wins, very seriously. They don't need to invade, just cause disruptions. Imagine if the Forsworn suddenly were given good weapons and gear. Or bandits funded massively.

The Thalmor have only ever used direct force once. Not sure why Stormcloaks assume they will try invade with an army. In any event, they're blocked by the Empire's Military.

So the Jarls won't be prioritizing their lands? The Empire doesn't simply rule everything directly.

Empire was only willing after four years of war, and the loss of three entire Legions + every other Legion under half strength. The Nord view is selfish, better that a few thousand warriors die in combat so that the hundreds of thousands of civilians be enslaved.

Going to war after a Civil War is new. The Empire didn't fund the war effort in Skyrim. Tullius used Skyrim's resources, Ulfric used Skyrim's resources. You Stormcloaks can barely keep order in Windhelm, don't have the manpower to investigate a murder. Majority of your ranks are from the Eastern Holds, you're spread thin. If war was to break out right after, to even scrape together an invasion force which most resources will have to be diverted to supply... You have to abandon Skyrim's protection.

No they wouldn't. They were dealing with issues in Cyrodiil or many years. You're also assuming Titus Mede is willing to take action.

"Seems the Emperor realized his presence would necessitate a more direct role in the ongoing hostilities. A role he was, obviously, unwilling to take."



"The Legion's always been here. Without us to keep order, the provinces would fall into barbarism and lawlessness. Especially Skyrim. Take for example, Ulfric Stormcloak and his little "rebellion".

Tullius has never been to Skyrim, and respect is earned. If Tullius is a Colovian, it isn't surprising he has little respect for them at first. You Stormcloaks go on about how the Dunmer have to earn your respect, but bitch and moan because you're not handed respect by Tullius.

"Can't say I'll ever get used to the damn cold, or understand these Nords... but I've come to respect them. The harshness of Skyrim has a way of carving a man down to his true self."

He comes to respect you. Show me one respectful thing you Stormcloaks say about another province? Or any other race for that matter?

Stormcloaks:

Empire was attempting to gain Valenwood. They were supporting and funding rebels, had some of their own men inside Valenwood also. The Thalmor were just better.

Only the Stormcloaks seek to leave the Empire, not Skyrim. Wouldn't be a Civil War otherwise.

Stormcloaks =/= Skyrim.

Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal.

Hammerfell wouldn't accept the peace, but they were forced out.

She's the only Jarl that doesn't change. Tullius is only remaining in Skyrim for a few years, and it is Rikke who gets put as the de facto ruler under Imperial victory for awhile.

I said there is hope for her, not that she is perfect.

"Steward, I have an idea that might help to bolster the morale of our people in this difficult time. I think we shall have a grand parade, and let General Tullius march his troops from the Blue Palace to Castle Dour in all their finery."

Doesn't say he's the "go to guy" for restoring order. Plenty of places within the Empire that would've needed "fixing" within Tullius' career. He couldn't have handled them all.

They know the war can't continue forever. And if they openly mock the Empire right in front of prominent Imperials I don't see them taking an independent Skyrim seriously.

Dominion's strong point isn't wealth. And bandits will take whatever the Dominion gives them and head home. I've read the Forsworn hate the Dominion as well, so they probably wouldn't ally. And an independent Skyrim will see the defeat of the Forsworn as something that needs to be dealt with.

You can't bring down a country with espionage alone. And if the Dominion is snooping around Skyrim (a costly, impractical and difficult mission with little to gain) it's wasting time it could be spending in Hammerfell or Cyrodiil. Guess the Stormcloaks take one for the team.

They won't if the Empire's available. Theyll expect as much if the Empire just forcibly consolidated their rule over them. Besides, isn't that what the Empire provides? Financial security? Unfortunately if Motierre is trying to reorganize everything and prepare for the next Great War, and probably have to pay everyone off, and some Jarl walks up and asks for money there's not a chance in Oblivion he'll get it. Even worse chances if you say they'll make a scapegoat of the Nords for Mede's and Vici's deaths.

The Nord view was to keep fighting. Something that is often shown to have been possible. And you don't know Titus did it for the good of the Empire. He walked right into the Thalmor's trap of disuniting the Empire, something that should've been fairly obvious when he agreed to it, so I think it was a bit more self-serving.

Same can be said of Cyrodiil, with all the rioting breaking out recently. There are bandits in every province, who's to say while the Empire is invading the Dominion Cyrodiil doesn't fall into chaos because of the lack of guards? Give Skyrim a chance to get organized, no one has to go to Alinor right away.

And going through a massive leadership reorganization won't make it any easier to go to war. Whatever problems there were in Cyrodiil will probably resurface, if they even went away in the first place.

You've just proven my point. Skyrim and Cyrodiil aren't the inseparable friends they once were, and neither will be too sorry to see the other go.

This: "The Thalmor were just better."

The Empire of the Fourth Era is, for whatever reason, unable to combat the Thalmor.

Stormcloaks (pretty much) = Nords. Take away all the Imperial, Breton, Redguard and Elven Legionaires and suddenly Skyrim looks a lot more unified.
"That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause."

Hammerfell would accept peace that didn't so blatantly use them to pay for it.

And Tullius will be running the show anyway, so Elisif's potential would never be seen.

Actually, it does say he is sent in to fix difficult areas. So yes, he is a "go to guy".

Thalmor are not just "better". A Steel Sword is "better" than an iron sword. An Elven Sword is "Superior". Different meaning(s) entirely.

Thalmor wealth isn't a strong point? Are you serious? Go play Civ 3 or 4 or perhaps 5 even... notice ALL the gold you make from cities along the coast or rivers. Think about this. Now go look at a map of Alinor.... then consider the entire Dominion. Dominion has mad bank son.

"You can't bring down a country with espionage alone. And if the Dominion is snooping around Skyrim (a costly, impractical and difficult mission with little to gain) it's wasting time it could be spending in Hammerfell or Cyrodiil. Guess the Stormcloaks take one for the team."

Really? And you decided this on your own. Wonderful. CIA would disagree with you on this. Furthermore, Thalmor already proved they can do this with the Empire. Obviously, if you had indeed read the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak, you would understand there are several reason for the Thalmor interaction(s) in Skyrim.

Please, if you hate the Thalmor, I can understand that. Don't pretend however to know us when you don't. Most users on here who discuss the Thalmor try and fit us into some general dark persona, like you're in the water pretending to swim, walking along the rocky coast. Thar be Sharks in them waters laddie.

~

Now, I have been away dealing with several matters and missed several of your earlier points.

The reason I'm still partial to the Empire is because they listen. They are repentant and very 'real' about their situation.

No I don't approve of Talos worship however, the Empire has admitted it was wrong and has basically apologized for the irrational actions of Tiber Septim.

I have no problem with the Empire. I expect the Empire will bounce back and challenge us again, but at least they are honest.

Stormcloaks however, refuse to see things for what they are. You disregard facts, you twist failures into success. You refuse to see the cause for what it is, blaming the ills of your cause and those of Ulfric solely on the Empire itself, or the Thalmor. If you cannot accept responsibility, you cannot lead.

What is Freedom if you can't allow others to be different than yourself? How long will a society be "Free" when it's members are not allowed to think differently, to allow their minds to evolve outside the "cause"? What good is "Freedom" from the Empire when you persecute and deny Freedoms to others who are not of the Empire?

Yeah, this is indeed a noble member of the Thalmor expressing these thoughts... but then again I'm not a "Freedom Fighter". I wear a black hat and don't pretend it's white.

A go to guy. Not THE go to guy.

It's that the Dominion chose to isolate themselves. They were the North Korea of Tamriel for a while there. Also the Empire controls the economy for the most part. They won't make it easy on the Dominion. Self-sufficient? Definitely. But overflowing with coin, there's not a lot of evidence toward that. You can have all the water surrounding you in the world, but if no one wants to trade with you and you don't want to trade with anyone, that doesn't make for a strong economy.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize medieval espionage taking place on the other side of the world was as effective as modern day high tech intelligence networks. The Thalmor didn't didn't defeat the Empire with espionage, they invaded. Their information was off, too apparantly, as they over-estimated the Legions.

Their reason is to continue the war, and Mage and I are talking about if Skyrim were to be independent, so the dossier is irrelevant. Try to be familiar with the context next time.

General dark persona? I'd say conducting a purging of your homeland, instigating the most destructive war in history and torturing countless men and women over beliefs that have no direct impact on you would fit "dark". Dunno about you.

So you actually are buying the Empire giving up Talos? Cough* Rikke *cough. Cough* Balgruuf *cough. Cough* Torygg *cough. It's sort of funny, when you think about it, the Thalmor are trying to conquer the world mostly because they're still bitter about Talos steamrolling Alinor. Mostly sad, but a little funny.

Don't get upset because people are ignorant about the Thalmor if you're going to be the same way about the Stormcloaks. Whose fault is it their most treasured god has been outlawed, and whose fault is it your Thalmor are dragging people off for torture? Whose fault is it an entire Nordic generation has been scarred mentally and physically by the Great War? Am I missing something? Are those all the Stormcloak's fault, and we're all being unreasonable for blaming the Empire and Dominion?

That last bit absolutely screams hypocrisy. Where in hell are you getting this idea Ulfric is some kind of dictator? How is any Emporer (or any ruler who ever lived on Tamriel) any less of a dictator? If your Altmer can rule Alinor the way they see fit, how can you say the Nords don't also have that right to Skyrim?

P.S. Praise Talos.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Doesn't say he's the "go to guy" for restoring order. Plenty of places within the Empire that would've needed "fixing" within Tullius' career. He couldn't have handled them all.

He was sent at the personal request of the Emperor himself. Not by the Grand Marshal of the Imperial Legion.

They know the war can't continue forever. And if they openly mock the Empire right in front of prominent Imperials I don't see them taking an independent Skyrim seriously.

Of course the Thalmor mock the Empire, they go out of their way to make the Empire look as bad as possible. They speak positively about the Stormcloaks, the Thalmor would take an independent Skyrim seriously. They're not the kind to ignore a nation preparing to invade them.

Dominion's strong point isn't wealth. And bandits will take whatever the Dominion gives them and head home. I've read the Forsworn hate the Dominion as well, so they probably wouldn't ally. And an independent Skyrim will see the defeat of the Forsworn as something that needs to be dealt with.

The Dominion's strength is considerable wealth, enough wealth to make the EETC mention it. The bandits would take what the Dominion gives and simply leave? Really? Funny how insurgent groups were being funded by the Thalmor in Cyrodiil. Show me where the Forsworn hate the Dominion? They hate the Nords.

You can't bring down a country with espionage alone. And if the Dominion is snooping around Skyrim (a costly, impractical and difficult mission with little to gain) it's wasting time it could be spending in Hammerfell or Cyrodiil. Guess the Stormcloaks take one for the team.

They did it in Summerset Isle and Valenwood. They caused a Civil War in Skyrim that tears it apart and weakened the strongest nation in the Empire to the point where they can barely keep bandits in check.

The Dominion is already snooping around in Skyrim, costs mean nothing to them. Lives mean nothing to them. They're masters at cloak and dagger, and keeping Skyrim weak is never impractical. They are spending in Cyrodiil and Hammerfell probably too. In the Novels they were actively causing disruptions in Cyrodiil, Elsweyr & Hammerfell + fighting Imperial espionage/rebel forces in Valenwood. Four provinces at once, yet it is suddenly costly and impractical to do less than that? plops, you even come across them on the island that is in Morrowind territory.

They won't if the Empire's available. Theyll expect as much if the Empire just forcibly consolidated their rule over them. Besides, isn't that what the Empire provides? Financial security? Unfortunately if Motierre is trying to reorganize everything and prepare for the next Great War, and probably have to pay everyone off, and some Jarl walks up and asks for money there's not a chance in Oblivion he'll get it. Even worse chances if you say they'll make a scapegoat of the Nords for Mede's and Vici's deaths.

The Empire hasn't paid anything in the Civil War, Tullius is using Western Skyrim for all of the war effort. Much to the upset of Solitude's Court. There are many parts of the Empire that do different jobs, a Jarl isn't simply going to walk up to the Elder Council hat in hand. They're given money, they enjoy free trade and get resources for next to nothing.

Motierre is going to reorganize everything? In what way? The Empire has procedures for when an Emperor dies. That hasn't changed in thousands of years. The Stormcloaks/Thalmor make a scapegoat. Since if Mede/Vici die due to the war, and the Empire believe the Thalmor are behind the war...

The Nord view was to keep fighting. Something that is often shown to have been possible. And you don't know Titus did it for the good of the Empire. He walked right into the Thalmor's trap of disuniting the Empire, something that should've been fairly obvious when he agreed to it, so I think it was a bit more self-serving.

It is mentioned why Titus did what he did. He felt it was needed to secure peace so the decimated Imperial forces could regather strength.

Same can be said of Cyrodiil, with all the rioting breaking out recently. There are bandits in every province, who's to say while the Empire is invading the Dominion Cyrodiil doesn't fall into chaos because of the lack of guards? Give Skyrim a chance to get organized, no one has to go to Alinor right away.

A) Cyrodiil didn't just have a Civil War.
B) Cyrodiil didn't just get ravaged by Dragons.
C) Cyrodiil has had 26 years, and isn't guarded by Militia of a single ethnic group, from one side of the province.

That is your problem. Skyrim needs a chance, they need time. We're out of time. The Dominion are already mustering their forces, the peace won't last long after Mede is gone.

And going through a massive leadership reorganization won't make it any easier to go to war. Whatever problems there were in Cyrodiil will probably resurface, if they even went away in the first place.

Please, Tiber went to war after his Emperor and all his politicians were assassinated. You make out some massive leadership reorganization, the Empire doesn't fall anytime an Emperor dies. The Empire follows procedures and political traditions in the event an Emperor dies, and succession is stalled. With or without an heir, the Elder Counvil still rules until they decide to crown the heir, or install a new Dynasty or the High Chancellor takes over.

You've just proven my point. Skyrim and Cyrodiil aren't the inseparable friends they once were, and neither will be too sorry to see the other go.

You don't need to be friends to need each other. Skyrim and Cyrodiil don't always see eye to eye, but together they keep mankind the dominant race on Tamriel.

This: "The Thalmor were just better."

The Empire of the Fourth Era is, for whatever reason, unable to combat the Thalmor.

The Empire of the Third Era would have been unable to combat the Thalmor at first. They're devious and good at what they do, they caught the Empire off guard time after time. They smashed the Blades without effort. Least the Mede's were smart enough to create the Penitus Oculatus as a back up.

Stormcloaks (pretty much) = Nords. Take away all the Imperial, Breton, Redguard and Elven Legionaires and suddenly Skyrim looks a lot more unified.
"That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause."

Every day more join the Legion too. Stormcloaks are not all Nords, they're made up of mainly Nords, but they are not all of Skyrim. Many Nords are part of the Imperial army still. Take away all the Imperial, Breton, Redguard and Elven Legionaries.. And you're left with Nords fighting Nords. All the other races in the Legion, is what makls them excel. It will take more than Nords to stop the Aldmeri Dominion, especially backwards xenophobic ones.

Hammerfell would accept peace that didn't so blatantly use them to pay for it.

Hammerfell should pay for it, their fault the Dominion got so far in Hammerfell in the first place, if they weren't fighting amongst themselves, maybe things would have turned out differently. If it wasn't for the Empire, the Dominion would have probably controlled more of Hammerfell. It was the Legions that left the Aldmeri too weakend in Hammerfell, it was the Legion veterans who were left behind that formed the core of the army that drove them back. It was Cyrodilic, Nordic and Breton blood that weakened the Dominion to allow the Redguards to get their treaty.

And Tullius will be running the show anyway, so Elisif's potential would never be seen.

Tullius is only in charge until the Moot meets.

 

[DrunkenMage]

That is just pure speculation that doesn't hold any grounds. We don't truly know what was said to Elisif... or if anyone even spoken to her at all... unless if I had missed something?

You mean to tell me the woman married to a King, would not have been instructed on how to behave? She's high born, Raijin. She wasn't just some random wench off the street, she would have been selected as a child. Brought up on how to be "proper". Look at how she sits, how she speaks.

I would be surprised to see her act out of character. She keeps herself composed, even when facing her husbands killer across the table.

 

[Ancano]

Doesn't say he's the "go to guy" for restoring order. Plenty of places within the Empire that would've needed "fixing" within Tullius' career. He couldn't have handled them all.

They know the war can't continue forever. And if they openly mock the Empire right in front of prominent Imperials I don't see them taking an independent Skyrim seriously.

Dominion's strong point isn't wealth. And bandits will take whatever the Dominion gives them and head home. I've read the Forsworn hate the Dominion as well, so they probably wouldn't ally. And an independent Skyrim will see the defeat of the Forsworn as something that needs to be dealt with.

You can't bring down a country with espionage alone. And if the Dominion is snooping around Skyrim (a costly, impractical and difficult mission with little to gain) it's wasting time it could be spending in Hammerfell or Cyrodiil. Guess the Stormcloaks take one for the team.

They won't if the Empire's available. Theyll expect as much if the Empire just forcibly consolidated their rule over them. Besides, isn't that what the Empire provides? Financial security? Unfortunately if Motierre is trying to reorganize everything and prepare for the next Great War, and probably have to pay everyone off, and some Jarl walks up and asks for money there's not a chance in Oblivion he'll get it. Even worse chances if you say they'll make a scapegoat of the Nords for Mede's and Vici's deaths.

The Nord view was to keep fighting. Something that is often shown to have been possible. And you don't know Titus did it for the good of the Empire. He walked right into the Thalmor's trap of disuniting the Empire, something that should've been fairly obvious when he agreed to it, so I think it was a bit more self-serving.

Same can be said of Cyrodiil, with all the rioting breaking out recently. There are bandits in every province, who's to say while the Empire is invading the Dominion Cyrodiil doesn't fall into chaos because of the lack of guards? Give Skyrim a chance to get organized, no one has to go to Alinor right away.

And going through a massive leadership reorganization won't make it any easier to go to war. Whatever problems there were in Cyrodiil will probably resurface, if they even went away in the first place.

You've just proven my point. Skyrim and Cyrodiil aren't the inseparable friends they once were, and neither will be too sorry to see the other go.

This: "The Thalmor were just better."

The Empire of the Fourth Era is, for whatever reason, unable to combat the Thalmor.

Stormcloaks (pretty much) = Nords. Take away all the Imperial, Breton, Redguard and Elven Legionaires and suddenly Skyrim looks a lot more unified.
"That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause."

Hammerfell would accept peace that didn't so blatantly use them to pay for it.

And Tullius will be running the show anyway, so Elisif's potential would never be seen.

Actually, it does say he is sent in to fix difficult areas. So yes, he is a "go to guy".

Thalmor are not just "better". A Steel Sword is "better" than an iron sword. An Elven Sword is "Superior". Different meaning(s) entirely.

Thalmor wealth isn't a strong point? Are you serious? Go play Civ 3 or 4 or perhaps 5 even... notice ALL the gold you make from cities along the coast or rivers. Think about this. Now go look at a map of Alinor.... then consider the entire Dominion. Dominion has mad bank son.

"You can't bring down a country with espionage alone. And if the Dominion is snooping around Skyrim (a costly, impractical and difficult mission with little to gain) it's wasting time it could be spending in Hammerfell or Cyrodiil. Guess the Stormcloaks take one for the team."

Really? And you decided this on your own. Wonderful. CIA would disagree with you on this. Furthermore, Thalmor already proved they can do this with the Empire. Obviously, if you had indeed read the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak, you would understand there are several reason for the Thalmor interaction(s) in Skyrim.

Please, if you hate the Thalmor, I can understand that. Don't pretend however to know us when you don't. Most users on here who discuss the Thalmor try and fit us into some general dark persona, like you're in the water pretending to swim, walking along the rocky coast. Thar be Sharks in them waters laddie.

~

Now, I have been away dealing with several matters and missed several of your earlier points.

The reason I'm still partial to the Empire is because they listen. They are repentant and very 'real' about their situation.

No I don't approve of Talos worship however, the Empire has admitted it was wrong and has basically apologized for the irrational actions of Tiber Septim.

I have no problem with the Empire. I expect the Empire will bounce back and challenge us again, but at least they are honest.

Stormcloaks however, refuse to see things for what they are. You disregard facts, you twist failures into success. You refuse to see the cause for what it is, blaming the ills of your cause and those of Ulfric solely on the Empire itself, or the Thalmor. If you cannot accept responsibility, you cannot lead.

What is Freedom if you can't allow others to be different than yourself? How long will a society be "Free" when it's members are not allowed to think differently, to allow their minds to evolve outside the "cause"? What good is "Freedom" from the Empire when you persecute and deny Freedoms to others who are not of the Empire?

Yeah, this is indeed a noble member of the Thalmor expressing these thoughts... but then again I'm not a "Freedom Fighter". I wear a black hat and don't pretend it's white.

A go to guy. Not THE go to guy.

It's that the Dominion chose to isolate themselves. They were the North Korea of Tamriel for a while there. Also the Empire controls the economy for the most part. They won't make it easy on the Dominion. Self-sufficient? Definitely. But overflowing with coin, there's not a lot of evidence toward that. You can have all the water surrounding you in the world, but if no one wants to trade with you and you don't want to trade with anyone, that doesn't make for a strong economy.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize medieval espionage taking place on the other side of the world was as effective as modern day high tech intelligence networks. The Thalmor didn't didn't defeat the Empire with espionage, they invaded. Their information was off, too apparantly, as they over-estimated the Legions.

Their reason is to continue the war, and Mage and I are talking about if Skyrim were to be independent, so the dossier is irrelevant. Try to be familiar with the context next time.

General dark persona? I'd say conducting a purging of your homeland, instigating the most destructive war in history and torturing countless men and women over beliefs that have no direct impact on you would fit "dark". Dunno about you.

So you actually are buying the Empire giving up Talos? Cough* Rikke *cough. Cough* Balgruuf *cough. Cough* Torygg *cough. It's sort of funny, when you think about it, the Thalmor are trying to conquer the world mostly because they're still bitter about Talos steamrolling Alinor. Mostly sad, but a little funny.

Don't get upset because people are ignorant about the Thalmor if you're going to be the same way about the Stormcloaks. Whose fault is it their most treasured god has been outlawed, and whose fault is it your Thalmor are dragging people off for torture? Whose fault is it an entire Nordic generation has been scarred mentally and physically by the Great War? Am I missing something? Are those all the Stormcloak's fault, and we're all being unreasonable for blaming the Empire and Dominion?

That last bit absolutely screams hypocrisy. Where in hell are you getting this idea Ulfric is some kind of dictator? How is any Emporer (or any ruler who ever lived on Tamriel) any less of a dictator? If your Altmer can rule Alinor the way they see fit, how can you say the Nords don't also have that right to Skyrim?

P.S. Praise Talos.

I can't stand this new commenting system. It's crap like almost everything else nowadays.

Anyways, no difference. Gen Tully is an Imperial General and I know enough about the military to say being a General is very exclusive honor which few ever receive. For the Empire to assign him by name, he is the go to guy for resolving Civil disputes. His record speaks for itself although perhaps there are other Generals as well with different roles. Also, killing Gen Tully in the end for the Stormcloaks alternative universe and not ransoming him off or what have you was very naive.

Hahaha here we go. I know that in the past Stormcloaks have used World History *frequently* to justify almost anything. Btw - That was a good move on the part of Rimfaxe to throw the Timeline at me, that is a "superior" tactic Although it really burns the Stormcloaks more than anything else. Now, it doesn't matter if this is a "Medieval Times" scenario because there was just as much intrigue and back-stabbing and espionage and pl*ps going down back then as is now. No, the technology was different however intent and purpose was same. Go read about the "French Revolution" or "American Revolution" or how Attila the Hun died to learn more. Just because we are in the post modern age doesn't mean the hearts of men have changed drastically. The goal is always the same, just the methods are different or morphed if you will.

It's also painfully obvious you ignored the other side to Elenwen's parties. I'm not taking up for the Empire however Mage has discussed this to some length before, what with the Thalmor's many business partners. Big business doesn't care how Fascist or Nationalist you are they are in it to make money and rightfully so. Not everyone is over-joyed about the Thalmor but then again, judging by what we see during the Embassy party, quality of Thalmor gear and training and location of the Dominion, it's *abundantly* and *undeniably* clear the Dominion is very wealthy. They invaded the Empire for @#$% sake. The last person to do that from Oblivion was a Dark Elf Arch Mage who himself was LOADED with coin. But go ahead, yes underestimate us. Please.

As far as the Thalmor's invasion, yes they screwed that up. Well, there was so much red meat in the water the sharks tired themselves out trying to chew it down. That bonehead abandoned his objectives and took on too much. Became greedy. And while that mistake won't be repeated, now the Empire is alerted to our intentions. A wasted opportunity though it does have a "Silver" lining.

We don't discuss these so-called "purges" with outsiders. That's a family matter.

As for the Empire giving up Talos, yes I buy it. Well, the Empire graciously permitted the Justiciars access to certain parts of the Empire to ensure the ban on Talos worship is being carried out effectively. The Emperor is after all, a man of his word and obeys his Elven Masters well. Elenwen herself says she hopes once the Stormcloaks realize what is best for Tamriel they will stop fighting. Furthermore, if you *cough* *cough* believe the Empire isn't obeying the Thalmor, then you are a hypocrite for murdering them. A house divided against itself won't stand. By fighting against the Imperial you mentioned, you are in affect serving us *cough*. So by your own admission you are willing to cooperate with the Thalmor as long as Ulfric gets everything he wants. You're a tool. How sad.

As for Tiber Septim's invasion, you can laugh all the way to Skyrim and back, Justiciar hit squads and sweep teams are carrying out justice against this juvenile and wicked Talos cult. Your hills run red with the blood of these "beasts" while their lands and possessions are forfeit to the Dominion. Shrines to the false God Talos are smashed and pillaged, fit for a trash dump, nothing more. The gold idols and assorted contraband we take from these sites are melted down or sold to pay the Dominion reparations for Septim's crimes.

Smile and dress warmly. The Dominion is here to stay and one way or another... man and Empire will all once again serve the Dominion. So remember, the Dominion is working hard day and night to restore the Empire of Tamriel as it was, as it was meant to be. The values of our past will become the foundations of our future. All you need, is a little patience, a little faith. Til next time this is Justiciar Ancano, signing off.

 

[Raijin]

You mean to tell me the woman married to a King, would not have been instructed on how to behave? She's high born, Raijin. She wasn't just some random wench off the street, she would have been selected as a child. Brought up on how to be "proper". Look at how she sits, how she speaks.

I would be surprised to see her act out of character. She keeps herself composed, even when facing her husbands killer across the table.

If she was instructed on how to behave... it certainly didn't help or she simply ignored the course, and decided to do things her way. How do you know that she was high born? I can't seem to find an official bio of her anywhere. What house did she belong to? What did her family do that deserved the title of high nobility? She married the high King.. She could of very well be the maid for all we know. She certainly didn't speak much about her family, and background. As for being brought up on how to be "proper". I differ from it. Just because she speaks in a soft tone and sit doesn't mean anything. It is how she behaves is what counts. She has an entitlement issues (Perhaps shes high nobility after all, and not some maid). She thinks that she is entitled to not only take Jarlship from Solitude (Which she ultimately got) but also the title of Queen. Under Stormcloak victory she starts to complain, and whine about how she will never take her "rightful" step of being Queen.

She certainly didn't act well during the meeting with the Greybeards.. even General Tullius politely told her to shut up, and that he will handle things. She is too young and too inexperience to rule a country that is already in chaos. Shes better off being the Jarl for the next several years to get the experience that she needs to become queen, and to prove herself worthy to the people of Skyrim.

 

[DrunkenMage]

If she was instructed on how to behave... it certainly didn't help or she simply ignored the course, and decided to do things her way. How do you know that she was high born? I can't seem to find an official bio of her anywhere. What house did she belong to? What did her family do that deserved the title of high nobility? She married the high King.. She could of very well be the maid for all we know. She certainly didn't speak much about her family, and background. As for being brought up on how to be "proper". I differ from it. Just because she speaks in a soft tone and sit doesn't mean anything. It is how she behaves is what counts. She has an entitlement issues (Perhaps shes high nobility after all, and not some maid). She thinks that she is entitled to not only take Jarlship from Solitude (Which she ultimately got) but also the title of Queen. Under Stormcloak victory she starts to complain, and whine about how she will never take her "rightful" step of being Queen.

Most marriages are political, she's nobility. She doesn't act like some peasant girl. If she is nobility, and she married a King she would have been brought up on how to act. That is how things were in medieval times.

She certainly didn't act well during the meeting with the Greybeards.. even General Tullius politely told her to shut up, and that he will handle things. She is too young and too inexperience to rule a country that is already in chaos. Shes better off being the Jarl for the next several years to get the experience that she needs to become queen, and to prove herself worthy to the people of Skyrim.

The Holds of Skyrim are largely independent, you can't just wage a rebellion anytime the heir takes the throne. Say Ulfric dies, who do you support being High King then? Who is worthy in your eyes?

Elisif is young and inexperienced, but she wants to learn. You don't gain experience from the side lines, best way for her to learn is to be the Queen. She will most likely make mistakes, every ruler does at first. The Nords handled Pelagius the Mad, they handled a Witch Queen in Whiterun.. Are these hardy people unable to handle Elisif the Fair? She won't hand Skyrim to the Thalmor, she's overzealous in the want to protect her people. She almost sent over a thousand men to secure Wolf Skull Cave... She doesn't mess around man, she doesn't send a fl*ffing axe.

Be funny if she turned out to become some conquering Queen later in life, establishing the Second Empire of the Nords.

 

[DrunkenMage]

You Stomcloak bastards kill Severio Pelagia!

You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, and high treason against the Empire.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

You Stomcloak bastards kill Severio Pelagia!

You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, and high treason against the Empire.

War is hell, get over it.

 

[DrunkenMage]

War is hell, get over it.

A war you Stormcloaks started. Had he been a Nord, and if it were the Imperials who had burnt him alive. You lot would be going on and on about it.

"But you're willing to sacrifice thousands for your own selfish ambitions." - General Tullius

 

[Raijin]

Most marriages are political, she's nobility. She doesn't act like some peasant girl. If she is nobility, and she married a King she would have been brought up on how to act. That is how things were in medieval times.

I think I'm starting to agree with you. Perhaps she is nobility... That explains why she starts to complain and whine over the fact that she won't be queen under Stormcloak victory. She starts to cry like a little girl. She sounds like a democrat with severe case of an entitlement issues.

By the way we don't know for sure if Elisif and Torygg marriage was political motivated.

The Holds of Skyrim are largely independent, you can't just wage a rebellion anytime the heir takes the throne. Say Ulfric dies, who do you support being High King then? Who is worthy in your eyes?

Elisif is young and inexperienced, but she wants to learn. You don't gain experience from the side lines, best way for her to learn is to be the Queen. She will most likely make mistakes, every ruler does at first. The Nords handled Pelagius the Mad, they handled a Witch Queen in Whiterun.. Are these hardy people unable to handle Elisif the Fair? She won't hand Skyrim to the Thalmor, she's overzealous in the want to protect her people. She almost sent over a thousand men to secure Wolf Skull Cave... She doesn't mess around man, she doesn't send a fl*ffing axe.

Be funny if she turned out to become some conquering Queen later in life, establishing the Second Empire of the Nords.

It depends on how Ulfric had died in the first place. Was it natural cause? Poisoning? Or the same route that ended up killing Torygg by using the Nordic traditions to challenge a High king to a duel? Who would I support for the next High king? Probably Vignar Gray-Mane (If hes still around). He is a former Companion, brother of Eorlund Gray-Mane, spent 30 of his life serving the legion as a commander, and fought in the Great war. He also has a history of helping those with self-destructive lifestyle. His history is pretty impressive to me to the point that I would cast in my vote for the next High king of Skyrim.

Theirs nothing wrong with wanting to learn, just that you need to take small steps, and work yourself up to the top. Giving her the title of Jarl is the first step. She can gain experience from being a Jarl for 10 to 20 years. This would give her time to get experience as she ages. She will not learn from being Queen. If she makes a mistake it could impact all of Skyrim. That is way too much for a novice.

 

[Raijin]

You Stomcloak bastards kill Severio Pelagia!

You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, and high treason against the Empire.

You Imperial bastards killed Lokir! Not only did you kill him, but you coldly shot him in the knee, backwards! What the (bleep) is wrong with you?!?! Don't you have any morals at all? Don't you know that you ruin peoples dreams of adventuring when you do this stuffs? You turn these people into miserable guards! Shame on you! SHAME!

 

[DrunkenMage]

You Imperial bastards killed Lokir! Not only did you kill him, but you coldly shot him in the knee, backwards! What the (bleep) is wrong with you?!?! Don't you have any morals at all? Don't you know that you ruin peoples dreams of adventuring when you do this stuffs? You turn these people into miserable guards! Shame on you! SHAME!

That thief was stealing in Eastmarch, from "your" people. Yet you so strongly defend this low life. Someone has to bring justice to the hard working citizens of Eastern Skyrim, because you Stormcloaks won't. Typical Stormcloaks, you speak of justice and freedom. Yet your actions are anything but.

 

[DrunkenMage]

It depends on how Ulfric had died in the first place. Was it natural cause? Poisoning? Or the same route that ended up killing Torygg by using the Nordic traditions to challenge a High king to a duel? Who would I support for the next High king? Probably Vignar Gray-Mane (If hes still around). He is a former Companion, brother of Eorlund Gray-Mane, spent 30 of his life serving the legion as a commander, and fought in the Great war. He also has a history of helping those with self-destructive lifestyle. His history is pretty impressive to me to the point that I would cast in my vote for the next High king of Skyrim.

Doesn't matter how he dies. Assassination, skirmish, eaten by a troll, tripped over a cart. He'll most likely die along with Tullius, Galmar & Rikke. Vignar is extremely old though, doubt he will last much longer.

Shame you don't have the true High Queen of Skyrim.

Theirs nothing wrong with wanting to learn, just that you need to take small steps, and work yourself up to the top. Giving her the title of Jarl is the first step. She can gain experience from being a Jarl for 10 to 20 years. This would give her time to get experience as she ages. She will not learn from being Queen. If she makes a mistake it could impact all of Skyrim. That is way too much for a novice.

Prey waits. She'll learn in the role, and with the Holds being largely independent her mistakes have limited reach. Most of Skyrim's rulers didn't have experience, many died within short years. She has some time to learn, before the next war breaks out. Even then, she isn't going to be leading troops into battle.

 

[General Charles Xander]

Most marriages are political, she's nobility. She doesn't act like some peasant girl. If she is nobility, and she married a King she would have been brought up on how to act. That is how things were in medieval times.

I think I'm starting to agree with you. Perhaps she is nobility... That explains why she starts to complain and whine over the fact that she won't be queen under Stormcloak victory. She starts to cry like a little girl. She sounds like a democrat with severe case of an entitlement issues.

By the way we don't know for sure if Elisif and Torygg marriage was political motivated.

The Holds of Skyrim are largely independent, you can't just wage a rebellion anytime the heir takes the throne. Say Ulfric dies, who do you support being High King then? Who is worthy in your eyes?

Elisif is young and inexperienced, but she wants to learn. You don't gain experience from the side lines, best way for her to learn is to be the Queen. She will most likely make mistakes, every ruler does at first. The Nords handled Pelagius the Mad, they handled a Witch Queen in Whiterun.. Are these hardy people unable to handle Elisif the Fair? She won't hand Skyrim to the Thalmor, she's overzealous in the want to protect her people. She almost sent over a thousand men to secure Wolf Skull Cave... She doesn't mess around man, she doesn't send a fl*ffing axe.

Be funny if she turned out to become some conquering Queen later in life, establishing the Second Empire of the Nords.

It depends on how Ulfric had died in the first place. Was it natural cause? Poisoning? Or the same route that ended up killing Torygg by using the Nordic traditions to challenge a High king to a duel? Who would I support for the next High king? Probably Vignar Gray-Mane (If hes still around). He is a former Companion, brother of Eorlund Gray-Mane, spent 30 of his life serving the legion as a commander, and fought in the Great war. He also has a history of helping those with self-destructive lifestyle. His history is pretty impressive to me to the point that I would cast in my vote for the next High king of Skyrim.

Theirs nothing wrong with wanting to learn, just that you need to take small steps, and work yourself up to the top. Giving her the title of Jarl is the first step. She can gain experience from being a Jarl for 10 to 20 years. This would give her time to get experience as she ages. She will not learn from being Queen. If she makes a mistake it could impact all of Skyrim. That is way too much for a novice.

What about Ulfric who instantly became Jarl after his father died during his incarceration? He had no experience being a Jarl. He wasn't even in Windhelm because he was training to become a Greybeard. Yet to you Ulfric, who had no experience as or with nobility/Jarlship, became this huge figure and is without a doubt destined to be High King. Who's to say that Elisif can't do the same?