Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[General Charles Xander]

Shame you don't have the true High Queen of Skyrim.

Don't be so sure of her loyalty. She's no patron of the Empire I assure you.

Prey waits. She'll learn in the role, and with the Holds being largely independent her mistakes have limited reach. Most of Skyrim's rulers didn't have experience, many died within short years. She has some time to learn, before the next war breaks out. Even then, she isn't going to be leading troops into battle.

I don't see why you put so much faith into a grieving widow, but you do you, friend.

I don't see why you put so much faith in a demented killer with mental instability.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Ok, so Tullius is the "go to guy" but again what else would he be doing other than Skyrim?

Wherever the Legion is needed. Overseeing Legion recruitment in High Rock, ensuring Orsinium is protected, guarding the Morrowind border, guarding the Black Marsh border, overseeing construction of forts and other defenses along the Aldmeri Dominion border. Teaching at the Imperial Academy. Providing justice to various counties.

Speaking positively about the Stormcloaks ties into making the Empire look bad. Hammerfell could be just as likely to invade them.

They're making the Empire look bad, for Skyrim. So that people rally towards Ulfric, it is a boast. Keep the war fueled. They would probably keep tabs on Hammerfell too. You're assuming they're not.

Even with an entire embassy in Skyrim and free reign to do as they please: "Our forces are stretched thin enough as it is, and I have better missions - better agents - to assign them to." I just don't see them having a continued presence in Skyrim if they became independent.

While the Civil War rages, Skyrim is not high priority. Stormcloaks are doing most of the work, while only careful management is required. Whoever wins the war, the Thalmor's plans become interrupted. They don't take kindly to that. Of course they would have a continued presence.

I don't see where all this wealth is coming from. Shouldn't the all financially powerful Empire be trying to make it hard on the Dominion economy?

They control three provinces. Generally wealth comes from that. In what way would they achieve this? I'm sure the Empire does try make it hard, but so too would the powerful Aldmeri Dominion.

Anyways as for the Forsworn not liking the Dominion, I finally found it again on UESP: "They directly oppose all other major political groups active in the Reach, including the Thalmor." The source just says "events of Skyrim" so I'm not really sure what they get it from exactly but there it is.

Thalmor don't come up to you directly. They're indirectly aiding the Sormcloaks, doubt they're just coming up in person and going "here you go". If they were going to fund the Forsworn, they would do it in such a way the Forsworn don't know it. Shipment of weapons and armor, lightly guarded by a few Mercenaries, walking through Forsworn controlled areas.

All of those countries border the Dominion, and one of which wasn't even an Imperial province any more. Skyrim is on the other side of the world and the next war is closer than ever. On Solsthiem they are at their worst you'll ever see. They can't break a simple blacksmith, and then you can intimidate them into abandoning their mission and going home. They're over extending themselves.

There is an Altmer in Windhelm who just came off the boat from Summerset Isle. Getting to Skyrim isn't hard, they have agents and assets of all races.

If they just fought their asses off to keep themselves a part of an Empire, don't you think they'll be expecting some money from them? Especially if they used all their resources on the war effort.
I'm saying the Jarls will be lucky to get any money from the Empire at all. The Empire isn't prioritizing rebuilding Skyrim.

They do get money, and resources. They also trade. The Empire is a very large machine, the Jarls all got chests of gold right after the Great War. Back when the Empire was prioritizing on rebuilding Cyrodiil, dealing with large outbreaks of violence. Money isn't an issue, they have to pay the soldiers. After Imperial victory, their goal is rebuilding Skyrim. It would cost more money in the long run to ignore Skyrim and leave them without any resources.

So you think a portion of the Elder Council went through all that trouble of hiring the Dark Brotherhood just to speed up succession?

If you kill the Emperor, you're seeking a change in leadership. So yes, speeding up succession is the primary function of why you would do it. Motierre mentions a change in policy, which policy is Titus Mede conncected with?

Mentioned by who? It's just as possible he did it to hold on to the throne. Why else would he agree to the same terms from the start of the war?

Mentioned by the main lore source of the Great War/White-Gold Concordat. The terms were harsh, but Titus II believed that it was necessary to secure peace and give the Empire a chance to regain its strength.

"White-Gold Concordat was the fancy name they put on the peace treaty between the Empire and the Thalmor. It ended the war and saved the Empire to fight another day."

Why else would he agree to almost the exact same terms? However, there is a great difference between agreeing to such terms under the mere threat of war, and agreeing to them at the end of a long and destructive war. No part of the Empire would have accepted these terms in 4E 171, dictated by the Thalmor at swords-point. Titus II would have faced civil war. By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price.

You've met Titius II, does he honestly strike you as someone who gives a fl*ff about a chair?

So there's still unrest in Cyrodiil, and a dead Emporer won't cheer everyone up. I don't see Cyrodiil being at peace either.

It will if everyone blames said Emperor. It isn't about cheering everyone up anyway, it is about setting a course of action that is needed. Cyrodiil won't be at peace, neither will Tamriel. The "peace" is almost over.

Tiber had massive military support, and Cuhlecain already had everything in place for him to take over. Motierre wants change, and the Legions are still probably not in good condition. And Tiber had almost full support of Skyrim.

Tiber was opposed by every province. He didn't have massive Military support until many years later, some of his battles he was greatly outnumbered. Tiber was chased out of the Imperial City as Emperor, had no forces to retake it. Conscripted farmers and peasants had to form a Legion to retake it.

The Legions are in good enough condition for Tullius to be requesting them. He isn't requesting imginary forces.

You spoke of the symbolic relationship of Skyrim and Cyrodiil, that just isn't recognized by anyone anymore.

Except all those that support the Empire.

Mede's don't even come close to what the Septims could do. And considering Tiber actually destroyed the first incarnation of the Thalmor...

Tiber used a giant magically construct. Mede wiped out an entire Aldmeri army, Tiber Septim was defeated by the Thalmor/Dominion in open combat. Lost his famous Legion.

I don't know why you keep coming back to the Penitus Oculatus. No success against Thalmor, no success defending Titus II.

Penitus Oculatus did have some success against the Thalmor espionage. No success in defending Titus II, you mean against the legendary dragonborn? Well they did nearly wipe out the Dark Brotherhood. In any event, this is the Dark Brotherhood. They killed Tiber Septim's heir, even when Uriel VII was killed it is mentioned they discounted the Dark Brotherhood because there were several assassins and they would have only needed one.

Why don't you ask the Blades about their success against Assassins? How many Emperors have been killed under their protection.

Take away Imperial, Breton, Redguard and Elven Legionaires and suddenly you've hardly any Nords against a whole lot of Nords. It was backward, xenophobic Nords that destroyed the Falmer race and saved the Imperials from slavery.

You Stormcloaks are nothing like the original Nords. What saved the Imperials from slavery? An insane, blood thirsty Crusader. You Nords provided aid, but Imperials had a major role as did rebel elf rulers.

Look at the Southern coast of Hammerfell. Do you realize how many people they'd be putting at the mercy of the Dominion? It was the Redguard's distraction that kept Cyrodiil from being overrun.

"There is no progress without sacrifice. No wheat without threshing the chaff."

And if Elisif wins she'll still be under his influence.

Only for a few years.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

I don't see why you put so much faith in a demented killer with mental instability.

Simple. He's right.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Don't be so sure of her loyalty. She's no patron of the Empire I assure you.

Neither is Tullius. Don't have to like what the Empire does, she understands the need and puts everyone under her protection equally. Her loyalty just needs to be those under her care.

I don't see why you put so much faith into a grieving widow, but you do you, friend.

I don't see why you put so much faith into a grieving son, who decided to go to war on a whim because he was mourning the loss of Daddy-O.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Neither is Tullius. Don't have to like what the Empire does, she understands the need and puts everyone under her protection equally. Her loyalty just needs to be those under her care.

And she has to have complete subservience to the Empire or be branded a traitor, but you don't want to talk about that one, do you?

I don't see why you put so much faith into a grieving son, who decided to go to war on a whim because he was mourning the loss of Daddy-O.

y'know or because the needs of the Nords have been oppressed by the Empire, whether they want to believe it or not

 

[DrunkenMage]

And she has to have complete subservience to the Empire or be branded a traitor, but you don't want to talk about that one, do you?

Really? Don't know much about past rulers if you believe that.

y'know or because the needs of the Nords have been oppressed by the Empire, whether they want to believe it or not

Many Stormcloaks believe that, yes. Does Ulfric? Or is it just a means to an end, after all your deaths are similar to wheat, according to Ulfric.

"I'm no man's fool. I know Ulfric Stormcloak's selfish and power-hungry, but he's the devil I know. Does that put it plain enough for you?"

"With the Stormcloaks at his back, Ulfric's poised to rid Skyrim of the Empire's forces and invalidate our involvement with the White-Gold Concordat. Between you and I, I think his motivations are a bit more self-serving. He uses this holy war as leverage in order to pursue the throne. If he were to be crowned High King, I'm not so certain it would be the golden age his followers expect."

 

[DrunkenMage]

You Stormcloaks are just a rebellion twenty years too late. You fight for a cause that won't even matter soon, you turned one of the strongest provinces in the Empire into the weakest of all Tamriel.

You need a chance to rebuild, you need time to regain strength. We only had one chance, and we are out of time. War is right around the corner, and you break off at the apex of the moment. Are you a nation of warriors? Or cowards hiding behind their mountains.

"The Nords are tired of spending our blood fighting the Empire's wars,"

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Really? Don't know much about past rulers if you believe that.

Oh, lighten up there my Inebriated Mage friend. I'm just saying that if she doesn't give her undying allegiance to the Emperor, she'll be branded a traitor and most likely banished. Granted, the Stormcloaks do the same thing, but at least I'm willing to admit it.

Many Stormcloaks believe that, yes. Does Ulfric? Or is it just a means to an end, after all your deaths are similar to wheat, according to Ulfric.

Pretty sure he does. If you talk to Galmar he says that Ulfric is quite serious about it: "Some say Ulfric desires to be king and nothing more... have they not seen that his anger floats on a sea of tears?"-Galmar Stone-Fist
Considering Galmar is around Ulfric most of the time, I think we can safely assume that he has a more correct opinion than any of the other Jarls.

"I'm no man's fool. I know Ulfric Stormcloak's selfish and power-hungry, but he's the devil I know. Does that put it plain enough for you?"

Wait, didn't you say not very long ago that Jarl Dengeir is losing his mind, and to take his words with a grain of salt? Now you're quoting him? what the hell is with you Imperials!? You're more flip floppity than pancakes.

"With the Stormcloaks at his back, Ulfric's poised to rid Skyrim of the Empire's forces and invalidate our involvement with the White-Gold Concordat. Between you and I, I think his motivations are a bit more self-serving. He uses this holy war as leverage in order to pursue the throne. If he were to be crowned High King, I'm not so certain it would be the golden age his followers expect."

Jarl Laila, while well meaning, Is also unaware that her best friend is a goddamn matriarch of tyranny who practically owns the town. I don't think she gets a right to think Ulfric is power hungry when she can barely keep her city together

 

[DrunkenMage]

Oh, lighten up there my Inebriated Mage friend. I'm just saying that if she doesn't give her undying allegiance to the Emperor, she'll be branded a traitor and most likely banished. Granted, the Stormcloaks do the same thing, but at least I'm willing to admit it.

Swearing fealty? She doesn't hate the Empire, she just doesn't agree with certain actions. Tullius does the same thing, he doesn't speak too highly of the Empire at times.

Pretty sure he does. If you talk to Galmar he says that Ulfric is quite serious about it: "Some say Ulfric desires to be king and nothing more... have they not seen that his anger floats on a sea of tears?"-Galmar Stone-Fist
Considering Galmar is around Ulfric most of the time, I think we can safely assume that he has a more correct opinion than any of the other Jarls.

Galmar is Ulfric's best friend, and Housecarl/General. Fanatical supporter of the cause. I'm sure his views are unbiased.

Wait, didn't you say not very long ago that Jarl Dengeir is losing his mind, and to take his words with a grain of salt? Now you're quoting him? what the hell is with you Imperials!? You're more flip floppity than pancakes.

I did say that, but he's your only good Jarl. I could be quoting your biggest fan, Skald. I'm sure he paints the great picture of your cause.

Jarl Laila, while well meaning, Is also unaware that her best friend is a goddamn matriarch of tyranny who practically owns the town. I don't think she gets a right to think Ulfric is power hungry when she can barely keep her city together

You need better political supporters. Maybe Riften could be kept together if the Stormcloak supporters there weren't idiots.

I think it is sad that Elisif is counted as one of your better Jarls in Stormcloak victory.

You got Laila who is an idiot, she talks about fleeing the city in front of her subjects. You got Dengeir who is paranoid and old. Skald who is.. well he is Skald. Silver-Bloods who are thugs, and plan to enslave a native population. Jarl in Winterhold who has no care about rebuilding, only gaining power and blaming Mages for the cold. Jarl of Morthal who isn't even really a Stormcloak supporter and worships the Eight Divines, but she has her sights on Riften and not her Hold. Vignar is okay, but he is ancient.

You guys really don't have much to go on. Without Ulfric, I would not trust any of them to come to any agreement.

 

[General Charles Xander]

"You don't develop courage with blame and rebellion, you develop it by surviving difficult times and challenging adversity."-Epicurus

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Swearing fealty? She doesn't hate the Empire, she just doesn't agree with certain actions. Tullius does the same thing, he doesn't speak too highly of the Empire at times.

I'm just saying that she must be 100% supportive of the Empire in her actions or else she's gone.

Galmar is Ulfric's best friend, and Housecarl/General. Fanatical supporter of the cause. I'm sure his views are unbiased.

Ehhhh good point. However it is still worth noting that Galmar, and anybody who's been near Ulfric and his dialogue, can tell that he is serious about these issues.

I did say that, but he's your only good Jarl. I could be quoting your biggest fan, Skald. I'm sure he paints the great picture of your cause.

Skald's a fluffing idiot. When have I ever said that that twat was a good Jarl.

You need better political supporters. Maybe Riften could be kept together if the Stormcloak supporters there weren't idiots.

I can raise a mug to that.

I think it is sad that Elisif is counted as one of your better Jarls in Stormcloak victory.

Truly, truly sad. I really wish we killed that idiot and put Bryling on the throne. Would've made for a much better Jarl

You got Laila who is an idiot, she talks about fleeing the city in front of her subjects. You got Dengeir who is paranoid and old. Skald who is.. well he is Skald. Silver-Bloods who are thugs, and plan to enslave a native population. Jarl in Winterhold who has no care about rebuilding, only gaining power and blaming Mages for the cold. Jarl of Morthal who isn't even really a Stormcloak supporter and worships the Eight Divines, but she has her sights on Riften and not her Hold. Vignar is okay, but he is ancient.

Excuse me, *clears throat*
Balgruuf is an indecisive man who spoils his children. Idgrod Ravencrone is one thousand times worse than Dengeir in mental state and even worse is hated by her people. Sidgeir is... well that goes without saying. Igmund is unaware of the Conspiracy currently happening in his own city (he's quite ironically the Laila of Markarth), and finally Elisif is a fool with no experience. other than Brina and Kraldar you have no one. If Bryling was the one who took control of Solitude it would be 2-2.

You guys really don't have much to go on. Without Ulfric, I would not trust any of them to come to any agreement.

Yes if only Bryling was in charge of Solitude. Those would be happier times.

 

[Raijin]

Anyone can be broken, yes. Except Elisif isn't, Ulfric was. His state of mind is questionable.

So whats your point of bringing it up? Why is his state of mind questionable? He wants the elves (The Aldmeri Dominion), the Imperial legion, and any Empire influences out of Skyrim so that the Nords can rule their own kingdom that they rightfully fought and won over centuries ago. How is that questionable? What is Elisif's goals for improving Skyrim? In fact I question her state of mind considering the fact that neither her nor her court has even put two and two together about what Sybille Stentor truly is... and what she is.

Considering under extreme pressure the Legion's response was to get the towns people to safety. You even come across a Legionary trying to aid a wounded civilian (Though he can't, he mentions the wounds are too deep and he can't stop the blood). I say they really did show themselves, they held out a defense to allow as many to escape as they could.

Nice that Ulfric shut the door on any civilians or wounded. I thought you Nords had honor, there is no honor to be had cowering behind a closed door while people are out there fighting and dying.

Don't worry though, I'm sure your Thalmor Masters made sure Ulfric made it back to Windhelm unharmed.

What are you talking about? Ulfric did not shut the door on any civilians. I did not see anyone else but Ralof and the player heading towards the tower, and Ulfric accepted the player in without a doubt. Ulfric gave you instructions to go up to the tower, and head for safety. He did his part regardless of his status as the leader of the Stormcloaks, and with a couple of injured Stormcloaks soldiers that he had to deal with.

And yeah the Imperials really showed themselves by failing to execute Ulfric. I do wonder what Tullius and the Thalmor ambassador was chatting up upon entering Helgan? If Ulfric was such a priority then why didn't Tullius executed him first?

Tullius might of captured Ulfric (CLAP CLAP) but he failed his part of executing him (thumbs down).

 

[Raijin]

Actually, Ulfric was forced to the throne. Not that he or anyone else would deny free power...

So someone who caused the deaths of tens of thousands of people is by far a better ruler than someone who constantly tried to make their citizens safe? Who would win a presidential election? Probably the person who would take extra, sometimes over Protection of their citizens rather than the person would choose to kill everyone to become it.

No. He inherited the role of Jarl of Eastmarch from his father.

Who are these tens and thousands of people whom Ulfric allegedly killed?

 

[TheQahnaarin]

Ok, so Tullius is the "go to guy" but again what else would he be doing other than Skyrim?

Wherever the Legion is needed. Overseeing Legion recruitment in High Rock, ensuring Orsinium is protected, guarding the Morrowind border, guarding the Black Marsh border, overseeing construction of forts and other defenses along the Aldmeri Dominion border. Teaching at the Imperial Academy. Providing justice to various counties.

Speaking positively about the Stormcloaks ties into making the Empire look bad. Hammerfell could be just as likely to invade them.

They're making the Empire look bad, for Skyrim. So that people rally towards Ulfric, it is a boast. Keep the war fueled. They would probably keep tabs on Hammerfell too. You're assuming they're not.

Even with an entire embassy in Skyrim and free reign to do as they please: "Our forces are stretched thin enough as it is, and I have better missions - better agents - to assign them to." I just don't see them having a continued presence in Skyrim if they became independent.

While the Civil War rages, Skyrim is not high priority. Stormcloaks are doing most of the work, while only careful management is required. Whoever wins the war, the Thalmor's plans become interrupted. They don't take kindly to that. Of course they would have a continued presence.

I don't see where all this wealth is coming from. Shouldn't the all financially powerful Empire be trying to make it hard on the Dominion economy?

They control three provinces. Generally wealth comes from that. In what way would they achieve this? I'm sure the Empire does try make it hard, but so too would the powerful Aldmeri Dominion.

Anyways as for the Forsworn not liking the Dominion, I finally found it again on UESP: "They directly oppose all other major political groups active in the Reach, including the Thalmor." The source just says "events of Skyrim" so I'm not really sure what they get it from exactly but there it is.

Thalmor don't come up to you directly. They're indirectly aiding the Sormcloaks, doubt they're just coming up in person and going "here you go". If they were going to fund the Forsworn, they would do it in such a way the Forsworn don't know it. Shipment of weapons and armor, lightly guarded by a few Mercenaries, walking through Forsworn controlled areas.

All of those countries border the Dominion, and one of which wasn't even an Imperial province any more. Skyrim is on the other side of the world and the next war is closer than ever. On Solsthiem they are at their worst you'll ever see. They can't break a simple blacksmith, and then you can intimidate them into abandoning their mission and going home. They're over extending themselves.

There is an Altmer in Windhelm who just came off the boat from Summerset Isle. Getting to Skyrim isn't hard, they have agents and assets of all races.

If they just fought their asses off to keep themselves a part of an Empire, don't you think they'll be expecting some money from them? Especially if they used all their resources on the war effort.
I'm saying the Jarls will be lucky to get any money from the Empire at all. The Empire isn't prioritizing rebuilding Skyrim.

They do get money, and resources. They also trade. The Empire is a very large machine, the Jarls all got chests of gold right after the Great War. Back when the Empire was prioritizing on rebuilding Cyrodiil, dealing with large outbreaks of violence. Money isn't an issue, they have to pay the soldiers. After Imperial victory, their goal is rebuilding Skyrim. It would cost more money in the long run to ignore Skyrim and leave them without any resources.

So you think a portion of the Elder Council went through all that trouble of hiring the Dark Brotherhood just to speed up succession?

If you kill the Emperor, you're seeking a change in leadership. So yes, speeding up succession is the primary function of why you would do it. Motierre mentions a change in policy, which policy is Titus Mede conncected with?

Mentioned by who? It's just as possible he did it to hold on to the throne. Why else would he agree to the same terms from the start of the war?

Mentioned by the main lore source of the Great War/White-Gold Concordat. The terms were harsh, but Titus II believed that it was necessary to secure peace and give the Empire a chance to regain its strength.

"White-Gold Concordat was the fancy name they put on the peace treaty between the Empire and the Thalmor. It ended the war and saved the Empire to fight another day."

Why else would he agree to almost the exact same terms? However, there is a great difference between agreeing to such terms under the mere threat of war, and agreeing to them at the end of a long and destructive war. No part of the Empire would have accepted these terms in 4E 171, dictated by the Thalmor at swords-point. Titus II would have faced civil war. By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price.

You've met Titius II, does he honestly strike you as someone who gives a fl*ff about a chair?

So there's still unrest in Cyrodiil, and a dead Emporer won't cheer everyone up. I don't see Cyrodiil being at peace either.

It will if everyone blames said Emperor. It isn't about cheering everyone up anyway, it is about setting a course of action that is needed. Cyrodiil won't be at peace, neither will Tamriel. The "peace" is almost over.

Tiber had massive military support, and Cuhlecain already had everything in place for him to take over. Motierre wants change, and the Legions are still probably not in good condition. And Tiber had almost full support of Skyrim.

Tiber was opposed by every province. He didn't have massive Military support until many years later, some of his battles he was greatly outnumbered. Tiber was chased out of the Imperial City as Emperor, had no forces to retake it. Conscripted farmers and peasants had to form a Legion to retake it.

The Legions are in good enough condition for Tullius to be requesting them. He isn't requesting imginary forces.

You spoke of the symbolic relationship of Skyrim and Cyrodiil, that just isn't recognized by anyone anymore.

Except all those that support the Empire.

Mede's don't even come close to what the Septims could do. And considering Tiber actually destroyed the first incarnation of the Thalmor...

Tiber used a giant magically construct. Mede wiped out an entire Aldmeri army, Tiber Septim was defeated by the Thalmor/Dominion in open combat. Lost his famous Legion.

I don't know why you keep coming back to the Penitus Oculatus. No success against Thalmor, no success defending Titus II.

Penitus Oculatus did have some success against the Thalmor espionage. No success in defending Titus II, you mean against the legendary dragonborn? Well they did nearly wipe out the Dark Brotherhood. In any event, this is the Dark Brotherhood. They killed Tiber Septim's heir, even when Uriel VII was killed it is mentioned they discounted the Dark Brotherhood because there were several assassins and they would have only needed one.

Why don't you ask the Blades about their success against Assassins? How many Emperors have been killed under their protection.

Take away Imperial, Breton, Redguard and Elven Legionaires and suddenly you've hardly any Nords against a whole lot of Nords. It was backward, xenophobic Nords that destroyed the Falmer race and saved the Imperials from slavery.

You Stormcloaks are nothing like the original Nords. What saved the Imperials from slavery? An insane, blood thirsty Crusader. You Nords provided aid, but Imperials had a major role as did rebel elf rulers.

Look at the Southern coast of Hammerfell. Do you realize how many people they'd be putting at the mercy of the Dominion? It was the Redguard's distraction that kept Cyrodiil from being overrun.

"There is no progress without sacrifice. No wheat without threshing the chaff."

And if Elisif wins she'll still be under his influence.

Only for a few years.

That would probably be a waste of an at worst decent general. Anyway I've forgotten why we're arguing about Tullius so Im willing to let this go.

It won't get any easier for them with the war over. They can not take kindly to it all they want, it's still going to require lots of resources and won't be an easy task. You also have to remember Skyrim is only one of nine provinces.

They could be heavily taxing any merchants coming to Cyrodiil or High Rock from the Dominion, raising the prices of goods highly sought after by the Dominion, or encouraging members of the Elder Council (the ones with lots of money) to abandon dealings with them.

So you have to purchase the weapons that could go to the weakened Dominion army. You have to hire mercanaries that you're suggesting die everytime you want to deliver a shipment. How are they going to get weapons smuggled into Skyrim? You see how much it would require to cause a little bit of a disruption for one region for one nation on the other side of the world?

I doubt Niranye had a direct trip. I couldn't even find a quote saying she came by ship, let alone straight from Alinor.

Their goal in Skyrim is making sure no more rebellions pop up. And even if it is their goal, it won't be the Empire who's taking care of it.

You know what I mean, succession as in Titus's (supposed) heir. Titus is no young man, no ones risking getting caught for treason so they can get someone they can't even guarantee will be any different on the throne a few years sooner. Motierre doesn't seem like a guy who'd be a stakeholder in anything the Concordat involves. Also why would he be vague with an assassin about it being the Concordat, if he says policy, may as well say it's the Concordat. Titus couldn't have only been involved in a single "policy."

Mentioned by an Imperial Legate, who took an oath to that Emporer. Titus isn't gonna pop out say "Sorry guys, no more Talos. But good news, I'm still Emporer!" They had a lot more bargaining power than they did at the start of the war. I'm guessing Titus got something out of there that preserved some of his authority or benefitted Cyrodiil and in return had to agree to the original terms.

He struck me as someone who gives up.

Not peace with the Dominion, peace within the Imperial people. Colovians may be outraged about Mede's death, or example.

When Cuhlecain died? Yes, Skyrim was at that point essentially an Imperial province. When all the young Nord men were flocking to the Legions.

And Tullius is having trouble getting said reinforcements. Either they aren't ready to march for Skyrim, or the Empire needed them somewhere else.

Maybe Imperial Nords. Not Cyrodillics.

Tiber didn't trip over it in the streets. He earned it through hard fought negotiations. Tiber lost one Legion versus all of Mede's either destroyed or decimated.

Whatever success they did have obviously wasn't enough. Not canon it's the Dragonborn that joins the guilds. Their job isn't to wipe out the DB, it's to defend the Emporer. Yeah but who's more likely than anyone to take shot at an Emporer? A for effort I guess, but you are supposedly an elite security force. Who said anything about the Blades?

That's what drives the Stormcloaks. To go back to the days of Ysgramor. We may not be there yet, but that's what we aspire to be.

Sacrifice is necessary to a certain degree. That's gotta be the most densely populated area in Tamriel we're talking about. For peace the Redguards weren't even asking for.

Even still, Tullius will have left his mark on her, and Imperial interests are always gonna come first.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

Anyone can be broken if they were being tortured enough. I wonder if Elisif would of done the same if she was in the same position as Ulfric was at the time. The Thalmor aren't the friendly type as they think of new ideas for torturing people in a way to make them talk.

Anyone can be broken, yes. Except Elisif isn't, Ulfric was. His state of mind is questionable.

Yeah pat yourself over the shoulders... The Imperials captured Ulfric and was carting him off to Helgan to be executed... Funny how they didn't executed Ulfric first. They were going to do him last. He ended up escaping after a dragon attack. I guess the Imperials don't have such a high IQ after all. Funny how you call Nords dumb yet the Imperials really showed themselves. Good job Imperials... GOOD JOB!

Considering under extreme pressure the Legion's response was to get the towns people to safety. You even come across a Legionary trying to aid a wounded civilian (Though he can't, he mentions the wounds are too deep and he can't stop the blood). I say they really did show themselves, they held out a defense to allow as many to escape as they could.

Nice that Ulfric shut the door on any civilians or wounded. I thought you Nords had honor, there is no honor to be had cowering behind a closed door while people are out there fighting and dying.

Don't worry though, I'm sure your Thalmor Masters made sure Ulfric made it back to Windhelm unharmed.

If you didn't notice, Ralof and Ulfric are the only Stormcloaks who aren't injured. They're looking after their own wounded. I'd love to see if in the midst of a Dragon attack you'd stop to help the people who moments before were cheering on your executions. I also like how people go on about what a great guy Hadvar is while he hides behind cover and yells at the boy to come to him instead of going and getting him.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I'm just saying that she must be 100% supportive of the Empire in her actions or else she's gone.

She is, she doesn't do anything against the Empire.

Ehhhh good point. However it is still worth noting that Galmar, and anybody who's been near Ulfric and his dialogue, can tell that he is serious about these issues.

Ralof mentions he's heard things about Ulfric he doesn't like.

Skald's a fluffing idiot. When have I ever said that that twat was a good Jarl.

You didn't. However, he is your biggest supporter and provides large numbers of forces for the Stormcloaks. Perhaps you should be grateful.

Truly, truly sad. I really wish we killed that idiot and put Bryling on the throne. Would've made for a much better Jarl

Bryling is having a sexual affair with Falk Firebeard, he's quite the Empire supporter. She is a good advisor, but keeping Elisif gained Ulfric a better political move.

Excuse me, *clears throat*
Balgruuf is an indecisive man who spoils his children.

Balgruuf stands by his decision when he makes it. His children? What do his kids have anything to do with it?

Idgrod Ravencrone is one thousand times worse than Dengeir in mental state and even worse is hated by her people.

Idgrod Ravencrone isn't a bad Jarl, and who are you to question visions from the Divines? I thought you Stormcloaks were supposed to be fighting for religious freedom, yet here you are questioning the mental state of a Seer?

She is hated by a few folk who dislike a wizard living there.

Sidgeir is... well that goes without saying. Igmund is unaware of the Conspiracy currently happening in his own city (he's quite ironically the Laila of Markarth),

No one likes Sidgeir, luckily he doesn't do much ruling. Not even the Silver-Blood Jarl is aware of the plots done by his younger brother,. So what, that means you have two Laila's?

and finally Elisif is a fool with no experience.

We using Elisif now? In that case, Ulfric is hated by half of Skyrim, hated by many within his own city. He has unrest in quarter of Windhelm, his poor management has left the Hold's source of lumber go basically unused. Maybe if he spent less time focusing on his own image, he will see he has problems. Instead it is all "Making drama, songs about me. Make me a special blade that looks like an ancient sword, Mr Blacksmith, it has to look like a Blade of old, cause I'm picky and the paintings of me need to look right."

Elisif and her parade, what about Ulfric and his fl*ffing fancy sword.

Yes if only Bryling was in charge of Solitude. Those would be happier times.

It would be.

"You know that I support the Empire," - Bryling to her lover in secret.

 

[DrunkenMage]

In fact I question her state of mind considering the fact that neither her nor her court has even put two and two together about what Sybille Stentor truly is... and what she is.

What she truly is? A Vampire? There are many of those within the Empire, you could say they run the Empire.

And yeah the Imperials really showed themselves by failing to execute Ulfric. I do wonder what Tullius and the Thalmor ambassador was chatting up upon entering Helgan? If Ulfric was such a priority then why didn't Tullius executed him first?

Tullius might of captured Ulfric (CLAP CLAP) but he failed his part of executing him (thumbs down).

Because they had all the time in the world, or so they thought. No one was expecting a Dragon to come down and level the whole place.
"General Tullius, stop! By the authority of the Thalmor, I’m taking custody of these prisoners."
"Your Emperor will hear of this. By the terms of the White-Gold Concordat, I operate with full Imperial authority!"
"You’re making a terrible mistake!"

 

[DrunkenMage]

It won't get any easier for them with the war over. They can not take kindly to it all they want, it's still going to require lots of resources and won't be an easy task. You also have to remember Skyrim is only one of nine provinces.

If they weren't prepared to keep resources going to Skyrim, it would be a waste fighting there. Not to mention you just leave grounds for another rebellion.

"The General's put me in charge of assisting the new governments. I may understand things here in Skyrim better than the General, but I'm a soldier at heart, not a politician. But I'll do my best. This is the land of my birth, the land that shaped me. I'm proud to have any part in making it strong again."

They could be heavily taxing any merchants coming to Cyrodiil or High Rock from the Dominion, raising the prices of goods highly sought after by the Dominion, or encouraging members of the Elder Council (the ones with lots of money) to abandon dealings with them.

You don't know what they're doing. Bethesda rarely speak out what is going on outside the province you're in.

So you have to purchase the weapons that could go to the weakened Dominion army. You have to hire mercanaries that you're suggesting die everytime you want to deliver a shipment. How are they going to get weapons smuggled into Skyrim? You see how much it would require to cause a little bit of a disruption for one region for one nation on the other side of the world?

I don't know what the Thalmor do. The weakened Dominion army, how do you know they don't have weapons? A Scholar writing a book was able to speak with the Forsworn, learn about them. I'm sure the Thalmor can find a way, they're a great threat. Don't underestimate the Thalmor, the Empire and the Blades did.

I doubt Niranye had a direct trip. I couldn't even find a quote saying she came by ship, let alone straight from Alinor.

Doesn't matter, there are various ways into Skyrim. I did find this journal, so it is possible to go direct.

I was able to obtain passage from Alinor to Solitude by way of ship. No mean feat with this Nord insurrection going on, I assure you. - Venarus Vulpin's Journal

But, you could easily go from High Rock or Hammerfell. The Thalmor don't just use Altmer assets.

Their goal in Skyrim is making sure no more rebellions pop up. And even if it is their goal, it won't be the Empire who's taking care of it.

Goal is to keep order, but rebuilding comes with it.

You know what I mean, succession as in Titus's (supposed) heir.
Titus is no young man, no ones risking getting caught for treason so they can get someone they can't even guarantee will be any different on the throne a few years sooner.

Succession is always the same. The Elder Council can refuse crowning an heir, in fact they did that to the Septim's and went with someone they deemed better.

Motierre doesn't seem like a guy who'd be a stakeholder in anything the Concordat involves. Also why would he be vague with an assassin about it being the Concordat, if he says policy, may as well say it's the Concordat.

Everyone is a stakeholder, the WGC affects everyone. He isn't about to go into details with some assassin, he's hiring you to kill, not talking about political reasoning.

Titus couldn't have only been involved in a single "policy."

The Elder Council generally handle everything. The only policy he's mentioned being connected with is the signing of the White-Gold Concordat, and we don't even know what kind of powers an Emperor gets during a war and the Elder Council are retreated to somewhere safe.

It is something big, and the WGC is the most famous. Doubt they're assassinating Mede over a "All you can eat on Turdas" policy.

Mentioned by an Imperial Legate, who took an oath to that Emporer. Titus isn't gonna pop out say "Sorry guys, no more Talos. But good news, I'm still Emporer!" They had a lot more bargaining power than they did at the start of the war. I'm guessing Titus got something out of there that preserved some of his authority or benefitted Cyrodiil and in return had to agree to the original terms.

Or I'm guessing the Empire could not continue the war, with most of the Empire calling for peace.

He struck me as someone who gives up.

He struck me as someone who stared death in the face, and accepted his fate without fear. Much like Uriel VII.

Not peace with the Dominion, peace within the Imperial people. Colovians may be outraged about Mede's death, or example.

Oh no, it'll spark war. Why did you think Ulfric wasn't going to kill him? Most likely be pinned on the Thalmor, since Mede's death is partly blamed on the Civil War which the Thalmor are behind. Oddly enough the only people who seem to make a big deal about it, is the Nords Guards.

When Cuhlecain died? Yes, Skyrim was at that point essentially an Imperial province. When all the young Nord men were flocking to the Legions.

They were flocking when he became Emperor and the Tiber Wars begun in full swing.

And Tullius is having trouble getting said reinforcements. Either they aren't ready to march for Skyrim, or the Empire needed them somewhere else.

"That's what comes of trying to win a war with a bare handful of legions. If the Emperor would just give me the reinforcements I've requested!"

Tiber didn't trip over it in the streets. He earned it through hard fought negotiations. Tiber lost one Legion versus all of Mede's either destroyed or decimated.

Hard fought negotiations... Yes, allowing slavery, Great House Law etc. Wasn't bad for him, since he was a slaver himself.

Whatever success they did have obviously wasn't enough. Not canon it's the Dragonborn that joins the guilds. Their job isn't to wipe out the DB, it's to defend the Emporer. Yeah but who's more likely than anyone to take shot at an Emporer? A for effort I guess, but you are supposedly an elite security force. Who said anything about the Blades?

Show me what you Stormcloaks have to counter espionage, to uncover assassination plots? Oh wait, nothing. At least the Penitus Oculatus was able to combat several Thalmor plots, uncover leaks, assassinate Thalmor agents. Better to have something that does at least a little, than nothing at all.

That's what drives the Stormcloaks. To go back to the days of Ysgramor. We may not be there yet, but that's what we aspire to be.

Clingly blindly to the past.. By all means, go back to the time before Nords changed their systems due to infighting. Ulfric makes it clear he hates the system done by the Pact of Chieftains. Be savages again, no wonder Reman and Tiber used you lot as tools. Unable to grasp the larger picture.

Sacrifice is necessary to a certain degree. That's gotta be the most densely populated area in Tamriel we're talking about. For peace the Redguards weren't even asking for.

Majority would have fled. You don't just sit there, looking at an invasion force while massive battles and sieges are taking place, watching as your Military retreat, going "Hmm, look at that. Guess the Market will be closed today."

Even still, Tullius will have left his mark on her, and Imperial interests are always gonna come first.

Elisif isn't happy, in fact she hates having Tullius there. She doesn't like him not answering to her, but using her resources and guards.

People shouldn't just hate on Elisif, without at least giving her benefit of the doubt. She wants to stockpile food and water in the event of a siege, she wants to discuss business and ways to increase the funds of the Hold, she wants to discusss the defense of her people, even if it means seeking out mercenaries.

Sure, she wants a parade to boost morale. So what? Ulfric wants a fancy blade to look like an ancient blade of royalty. Get the damn High Elves in Solitude to get him fitted for fancy outfit too, while you're at it.

You Stormcloaks are out there fighting for him in mismatched equipment and sometimes poor iron weapons. While Ulfric tasks his blacksmith to make a fancy blade and royal armor for himself. Such vanity... Not even a Colovian King would do that.

In the Legion we would have called it 'useless.' - Ghorza gra-Bagol

 

[General Charles Xander]

Actually, Ulfric was forced to the throne. Not that he or anyone else would deny free power...

So someone who caused the deaths of tens of thousands of people is by far a better ruler than someone who constantly tried to make their citizens safe? Who would win a presidential election? Probably the person who would take extra, sometimes over Protection of their citizens rather than the person would choose to kill everyone to become it.

No. He inherited the role of Jarl of Eastmarch from his father.

Who are these tens and thousands of people whom Ulfric allegedly killed?

Forgive me, I misread the sentence on UESP. However, the tens of thousands of people was referring to were the Imperial citizens and soldiers killed before and after the Civil war.

 

[TheQahnaarin]

It won't get any easier for them with the war over. They can not take kindly to it all they want, it's still going to require lots of resources and won't be an easy task. You also have to remember Skyrim is only one of nine provinces.

If they weren't prepared to keep resources going to Skyrim, it would be a waste fighting there. Not to mention you just leave grounds for another rebellion.

"The General's put me in charge of assisting the new governments. I may understand things here in Skyrim better than the General, but I'm a soldier at heart, not a politician. But I'll do my best. This is the land of my birth, the land that shaped me. I'm proud to have any part in making it strong again."

They could be heavily taxing any merchants coming to Cyrodiil or High Rock from the Dominion, raising the prices of goods highly sought after by the Dominion, or encouraging members of the Elder Council (the ones with lots of money) to abandon dealings with them.

You don't know what they're doing. Bethesda rarely speak out what is going on outside the province you're in.

So you have to purchase the weapons that could go to the weakened Dominion army. You have to hire mercanaries that you're suggesting die everytime you want to deliver a shipment. How are they going to get weapons smuggled into Skyrim? You see how much it would require to cause a little bit of a disruption for one region for one nation on the other side of the world?

I don't know what the Thalmor do. The weakened Dominion army, how do you know they don't have weapons? A Scholar writing a book was able to speak with the Forsworn, learn about them. I'm sure the Thalmor can find a way, they're a great threat. Don't underestimate the Thalmor, the Empire and the Blades did.

I doubt Niranye had a direct trip. I couldn't even find a quote saying she came by ship, let alone straight from Alinor.

Doesn't matter, there are various ways into Skyrim. I did find this journal, so it is possible to go direct.

I was able to obtain passage from Alinor to Solitude by way of ship. No mean feat with this Nord insurrection going on, I assure you. - Venarus Vulpin's Journal

But, you could easily go from High Rock or Hammerfell. The Thalmor don't just use Altmer assets.

Their goal in Skyrim is making sure no more rebellions pop up. And even if it is their goal, it won't be the Empire who's taking care of it.

Goal is to keep order, but rebuilding comes with it.

You know what I mean, succession as in Titus's (supposed) heir.
Titus is no young man, no ones risking getting caught for treason so they can get someone they can't even guarantee will be any different on the throne a few years sooner.

Succession is always the same. The Elder Council can refuse crowning an heir, in fact they did that to the Septim's and went with someone they deemed better.

Motierre doesn't seem like a guy who'd be a stakeholder in anything the Concordat involves. Also why would he be vague with an assassin about it being the Concordat, if he says policy, may as well say it's the Concordat.

Everyone is a stakeholder, the WGC affects everyone. He isn't about to go into details with some assassin, he's hiring you to kill, not talking about political reasoning.

Titus couldn't have only been involved in a single "policy."

The Elder Council generally handle everything. The only policy he's mentioned being connected with is the signing of the White-Gold Concordat, and we don't even know what kind of powers an Emperor gets during a war and the Elder Council are retreated to somewhere safe.

It is something big, and the WGC is the most famous. Doubt they're assassinating Mede over a "All you can eat on Turdas" policy.

Mentioned by an Imperial Legate, who took an oath to that Emporer. Titus isn't gonna pop out say "Sorry guys, no more Talos. But good news, I'm still Emporer!" They had a lot more bargaining power than they did at the start of the war. I'm guessing Titus got something out of there that preserved some of his authority or benefitted Cyrodiil and in return had to agree to the original terms.

Or I'm guessing the Empire could not continue the war, with most of the Empire calling for peace.

He struck me as someone who gives up.

He struck me as someone who stared death in the face, and accepted his fate without fear. Much like Uriel VII.

Not peace with the Dominion, peace within the Imperial people. Colovians may be outraged about Mede's death, or example.

Oh no, it'll spark war. Why did you think Ulfric wasn't going to kill him? Most likely be pinned on the Thalmor, since Mede's death is partly blamed on the Civil War which the Thalmor are behind. Oddly enough the only people who seem to make a big deal about it, is the Nords Guards.

When Cuhlecain died? Yes, Skyrim was at that point essentially an Imperial province. When all the young Nord men were flocking to the Legions.

They were flocking when he became Emperor and the Tiber Wars begun in full swing.

And Tullius is having trouble getting said reinforcements. Either they aren't ready to march for Skyrim, or the Empire needed them somewhere else.

"That's what comes of trying to win a war with a bare handful of legions. If the Emperor would just give me the reinforcements I've requested!"

Tiber didn't trip over it in the streets. He earned it through hard fought negotiations. Tiber lost one Legion versus all of Mede's either destroyed or decimated.

Hard fought negotiations... Yes, allowing slavery, Great House Law etc. Wasn't bad for him, since he was a slaver himself.

Whatever success they did have obviously wasn't enough. Not canon it's the Dragonborn that joins the guilds. Their job isn't to wipe out the DB, it's to defend the Emporer. Yeah but who's more likely than anyone to take shot at an Emporer? A for effort I guess, but you are supposedly an elite security force. Who said anything about the Blades?

Show me what you Stormcloaks have to counter espionage, to uncover assassination plots? Oh wait, nothing. At least the Penitus Oculatus was able to combat several Thalmor plots, uncover leaks, assassinate Thalmor agents. Better to have something that does at least a little, than nothing at all.

That's what drives the Stormcloaks. To go back to the days of Ysgramor. We may not be there yet, but that's what we aspire to be.

Clingly blindly to the past.. By all means, go back to the time before Nords changed their systems due to infighting. Ulfric makes it clear he hates the system done by the Pact of Chieftains. Be savages again, no wonder Reman and Tiber used you lot as tools. Unable to grasp the larger picture.

Sacrifice is necessary to a certain degree. That's gotta be the most densely populated area in Tamriel we're talking about. For peace the Redguards weren't even asking for.

Majority would have fled. You don't just sit there, looking at an invasion force while massive battles and sieges are taking place, watching as your Military retreat, going "Hmm, look at that. Guess the Market will be closed today."

Even still, Tullius will have left his mark on her, and Imperial interests are always gonna come first.

Elisif isn't happy, in fact she hates having Tullius there. She doesn't like him not answering to her, but using her resources and guards.

People shouldn't just hate on Elisif, without at least giving her benefit of the doubt. She wants to stockpile food and water in the event of a siege, she wants to discuss business and ways to increase the funds of the Hold, she wants to discusss the defense of her people, even if it means seeking out mercenaries.

Sure, she wants a parade to boost morale. So what? Ulfric wants a fancy blade to look like an ancient blade of royalty. Get the damn High Elves in Solitude to get him fitted for fancy outfit too, while you're at it.

You Stormcloaks are out there fighting for him in mismatched equipment and sometimes poor iron weapons. While Ulfric tasks his blacksmith to make a fancy blade and royal armor for himself. Such vanity... Not even a Colovian King would do that.

In the Legion we would have called it 'useless.' - Ghorza gra-Bagol

So let's say the war does break out soon after Titus's death and it probably lasts around a decade, and so the Empire is preoccupied. How does Skyrim get rebuilt then?

If they were doing something along those lines then the Dominion wouldn't be able throw money around funding bandits to screw with the Empire.

There are countless things you could spend money on for your military, so being able to fund some unorganized terror group who only want ONE portion of Skyrim would really suprise me. We don't underestimate the Dominion, the Dominion underestimates us. Both of us actually.

"No mean feat," and being a vampire it probably wasn't by normal means. But yes, it's possible to get to Skyrim from Alinor. Even easier to get to Cyrodiil.

Exactly, so why would Motierre go to all that trouble? This will be no simple succession coming up.

In what way does the WGC affect everyone? Motierrie doesn't seem like a Talos worshipper, or someone who would care too much about Hammerfell. Did he maybe have a buddy in the Blades or something?

Like you said, we don't hear much about what happens outside of Skyrim. There are many things Titus II could be connected to.

They didn't want THAT peace. There were plenty of others who wanted to fight on.

A guy who supposedly lead armies into battle not too long ago. Anyway the situations were dramitcally different, you can't offer to ban Talos worship to a Brotherhood assassin in exchange for your life.

Can you elaborate here? War with the Dominion? And yes, that's one of the more annoying parts of Skyrim. Kill the Emporer and no one bats an eye. Kill a chicken and everyone loses their minds.

Tiber was already a general, Nords made up the bulk of his armies. Like at H'roldan and Sancre Tor, and I'd guess northern Cyrodiil. The guy was Dragonborn, automatic Nord hero for crying out loud.

Yes, so there obviously aren't enough forces available to send to Skyrim. The Legions aren't in position to invade the Dominion, they're just preparing to defend against them if they have to.

That Tiber's a bad man, letting Morrowind preserve their self-governance and avoiding an invasion that would've cost thousands of lives. From a strategic view, he left a massive Imperial print on Morrowind with Hlaalu and got dibs on all their ebony and other minerals. Not necessarily on topic, but who exactly did Tiber enslave?

Nothing to counter assassination and plots huh?
"Indeed. There have been multiple attempts on the Jarl's life. We're not certain if it's the Dark Brotherhood or simply Imperial sympathizers. We've also had run-ins with spies attempting to probe our security for weaknesses. I work with the city guard to make certain they fail. At the end of the day, I'm the last line of defense for the Jarl. I will not allow her to fall."

How is it any different than blindly clinging to an Empire showing no real signs of progress but plenty of signs of decline?

They would be officially handing over their lands to the Dominion. So either the Redguards stay and live under the Thalmor, or they are uprooted and now homeless. But because the Redguards died for the the Empire they should suck it up? What would you do if a foreign ruler signed away your home to the Thalmor?

So a warrior king shouldn't have a decent sword? Elisif has the right idea sure but it's not like she's coming up with any ground-breaking ideas. She clearly has no idea how anything works, and so her Thanes and Tullius have their way with her.