Why do some People think Ulfric Stormcloak is Racist

[Nordic Vampire Lord]

Look at the lore and the actions. half of you people are wrong and when you're presented with information you don't accept it you think you're right and everyone else is wrong when in fact you're wrong

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

Not a troll? You sound exactly like a troll. Just look at your reputation. It's blatantly obvious over a third of the forum members who thought it worth even giving a reputation don't like you. You're the one ignoring lore just by not counting non human races as people and labeling the factions something as plain as 'good' and 'evil'. Plus, your posts are insulting and rude. That's the last I have to say to you.
Begone.

 

[Medea]

 

[Nordic Vampire Lord]

Sorry but I came on here treating people with respect and all I got was getting treated like crap so take your lables and bad behavior and name calling and immaturity and shove it

 

[Nordic Vampire Lord]

And I'm not a troll I'm real real questions and real concerns sorry if you cant handle my questions

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

We can handle you're questions just fine. It appears to be you who can't handle the fact that, for the most part, we don't agree with you.
Jeesh. If you're not a troll, what are you? 8?

 

[Nordic Vampire Lord]

That's because if you don't agree with me then you do not agree with the lore

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

That's because if you don't agree with me then you do not agree with the lore

Since when are you the lore? Do you speak for Bethesda? Because I'm pretty sure there are plenty of forum members that are at least as knowledgeable when it comes to the Elder Scrolls as you. Such arrogant pride to say such things boy.

 

[Benthos]

My main character is Argonian, is he not a person? He may not be human but he certainly is high level (almost maxed) and can take on giant camps single handed no problem, one giant took the Companions, Rumar (like many others) got to run the Companions. He is also head of the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, what's weak and disrespectful of that? I know this is something EVERYONE can do as dragonborn thanks to setting of the game, but c'mon, Argonians are awesome, Khajit are awesome, every race has their strength and weakness but in Skyrim, they're mostly equal thanks to the leveling system and its perks.

I did not say that the Nords have the right to treat outsiders like trash. They do not. However lets be realistic. The Dunmers of windhelm.... Stormcloaks HQ mind you refuses to help out the Stormcloaks because it's not their war, according to that woman Dunmer. Their lack of participation in this war is upsetting the local nords therefour the bitterness results of harassment. So you think Imperials who runs a town indicates peace and prospering families, eh? Go ask the people in Riften under Maven's rulings Ulfric is not at fault for the conflict between the Graymanes and the battle-born. Theirs much more too then politics that broke up the relationship between them both. Olfrid Battle-Born got rich and decided to get himself some new (wealthy) friends. also at the beginning Idolaf Battle-Born is seen requesting armor and weapons for the imperial army. It was a big order. The woman blacksmith told him that she wasn't able to carry such order, and that she told him to go to Eorlund Gray-Mane. He refuses to contract Eorlund Gray-Mane for the job, stating that he would "sooner bend his knee to Ulfric Stormcloak." So I guess he doesn't want quality armor for the imperial army after all. As far as refusing to do business with the woman blacksmith because shes a redguard I don't buy it. People want quality, and Eorlund can do exactly that



They have a choice and even if they're afraid they could always hire mercenaries or the companions to help them along. Nobody said that living in Skyrim is 100% safe. Theirs danger all around. If you are weak, and have a fort... you will lose it to the bandits. It's the way of life in Skyrim.




If what you said are true then this would be more of an incentive for the Dunmers of Windhelm to join up with the Stormcloaks and fight those Thalmor bastards. Perhaps if they proven themselves worthy then maybe they would be more respected among the nord residents. Malbornisn't all that strong. you see after you kill the Thalmor assassin he thanks you and then runs to morrowind. He gets approached by 2 frost trolls which they both own him. I usually have to help him out for his chances for surviving the travel. He does not tame the frost troll, or call them.



What exactly does the Dunmer need help with may I ask? other than to live in the G.Q their actually doing quite well. they have farms, street vendors and a pawn store. And yes theirs other races that the thalmor capture. You would think that the Dunmers would help out, but no. They're only concern is their own kind while the rest can rot for all they are.

Thalmor are the main people to be concerned about, that's not in question at all, but Dunmer are too smart to get involved in a fight that doesn't concern them, if the Imperials come marching in victorious, they're screwed as well if they get involved. Some Dunmer have made the best out of what they have even with the prejudiced all around them. Not many folks can hire a bunch of mercenaries or the Companions (since they demand a lot of money), only those who can spare the coin can hire them, who can be certain the mercenaries aren't going to stage some attacks to get them confident in their services, get paid then attack them? Many folks have shown you can't trust them very much out there in such businesses. They could be bandits in disguise and there are no set uniforms to indicate who is a bandit.


Yeah, Malborn doesn't do so great on his own, several playthroughs and only once did he survive escaping the Thalmor embassy with me. But he isn't like the Dunmer, the Dunmer are stubborn and proud, almost as much as the Altmer who are radically proud of their race to the point where they must look alike upon reproducing.

Maven Black Briar is hot, her daughter is even hotter, but Maven is neutral and has had her hands in many establishments which show what a successful business woman she is to have such security, she is even said to take over Riften if the Graybeards are settling peace between the two forces just to have help facing off against Alduin. EVEN THE GRAYBEARDS know of her, that's some serious reach. I know she takes over if the Imperials cease Riften but that's her strength in politics, she already pretty much owns Riften even though she's not Jarl.

First of all, Adrianne Avenicci, the Whiterun blacksmith, is actually an Imperial - make of that what you will.

Secondly, given that the Dunmer have been in Windhelm for so long, as much as some people like to say that they came to the city and it didn't come to them, the same can be said for Ulfric's war. They've been there far longer than Ulfric has been Jarl and even longer still than the time he's been waging this rebellion. They have every right to say "Hey, no, this ISN'T our fight". Just because a group of Nords there decide that fighting with the Imperials is what's best, they and all of Skyrim are still beholden to the laws of the Empire as much as Ulfric and his ilk might like to believe otherwise. Not everyone in Windhelm, not even every Nord, is with Ulfric's program, so to speak.

In addition to all of that, I see no real incentive to take up arms or provide resources to an immediate group of people who really at the end of the day largely don't appear to give a skeever's ass how you fare or have fared. And no, I am not saying all Stormcloaks despise Dunmer. But some of the most vocal Stormcloak sympathizers in Windhelm don't mind making clear their disdain. And from the Dark Elves' vantage point, the leader of the faction, as Jarl, has done little to nothing to implement positive change since he's been there.

Once again, had Ulfric been a different kind of character, one who sought to bring more people into the fold early on, one who curried favor and made a real effort, I think we would have seen a vastly different scenario. The policies he has upheld are in some ways to his own detriment as much as to that of the Dunmer.

Yeah, sorry, I was tired when I posted that and when I tried to remember her name all I could do was see her to have dark red skin like the sexy Saadia for some reason. That's my bad and thanks for the correction, the name is a dead give away since Imperials are based on Romans who have Latin names. If he tried to unite all races into his fight, he would've had most of Skyrim with the right arguments, people can work well together and follow incentive if they have the right public speakers.

Racism arguement aside but straight to your last point, why should the nords show sympathy towards the dunmer, or Any other non-nord race for that matter? Seriously though look at it this way, there are other races being captured by the Thalmor that are not strictly nords correct? N of course there not Ulfric/Stormcloak supporters because the whole segregation in Windhelm being no secret so they join the empire, who BTW are just sitting and waiting while All these people of all races are being caught, interrogatted killed n what have you. That being said, what is the Stormcloak rebellion about? Standing up and fighting for their rights and freedom, while 'everyone else' is sitting back, letting all this happen and crying about it!!! From the Stormcloaks's POV, you don't like it? Join us and prove your allegience to the cause, respect is earned not given, you think its an abosolute fact that Ulfric would turn down help from the dunmer and argonian citizens of his own Hold to fight against the injustice thats currently going on in Skyrim? I'm not so sure about that, like I said for some respect is earned not given, unlike the imperials and look where that got them, in shambles

But it's common fact throughout the hold that he would refuse to even bother sending people out to help other races. The carriage driver says it, several citizens within and outside Windhelm's walls say it (Nords as well), and I'm certain some farms around say it too.

Racism arguement aside but straight to your last point, why should the nords show sympathy towards the dunmer, or Any other non-nord race for that matter? Seriously though look at it this way, there are other races being captured by the Thalmor that are not strictly nords correct? N of course there not Ulfric/Stormcloak supporters because the whole segregation in Windhelm being no secret so they join the empire, who BTW are just sitting and waiting while All these people of all races are being caught, interrogatted killed n what have you. That being said, what is the Stormcloak rebellion about? Standing up and fighting for their rights and freedom, while 'everyone else' is sitting back, letting all this happen and crying about it!!! From the Stormcloaks's POV, you don't like it? Join us and prove your allegience to the cause, respect is earned not given, you think its an abosolute fact that Ulfric would turn down help from the dunmer and argonian citizens of his own Hold to fight against the injustice thats currently going on in Skyrim? I'm not so sure about that, like I said for some respect is earned not given, unlike the imperials and look where that got them, in shambles

But it's well known throughout the hold that he wouldn't help and he wasn't Jarl for long, he just killed the High King and took his throne in Windhelm just before the events of the beginning of the game. Respect is earned and can be given through actions witnessed, by excluding the rights to the point of DENYING rights and equal treatment of the other races, one could lose what would be given respect.

Why should any Nord show respect to other races? Why not? Many Nords have worked with other races and gained a lot of trust with those individuals over time, an Orsimer would be a great beneficial partner when it comes to smithing and helping take care of bandits. Some races excel at things than Nords as well which would be more reason to show respect, Bosmer are well known throughout Tamriel of being the BEST archers of the land and are well respected for it.

 

[Lizardking1]

Ah, Americans... always thinking everything relates to their 5-century History =) I like the part where Great Britain is apparently a dying Empire...
I like Ulfric. Can someone quote me something racist he says? I'm serious, I've never heard anything racist coming from his mouth. He's very nationalist, but that's not necessarily the same as a racist: someone can be proud of being a Nord without hating the Khajiit.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

Ah, Americans... always thinking everything relates to their 5-century History =) I like the part where Great Britain is apparently a dying Empire...
I like Ulfric. Can someone quote me something racist he says? I'm serious, I've never heard anything racist coming from his mouth. He's very nationalist, but that's not necessarily the same as a racist: someone can be proud of being a Nord without hating the Khajiit.

I haven't played the civil war, so I can't speak on that. However, I do believe the Dunmer's living conditions are confined to the Grey Quarter, the Argonians are confined to the docks, that our scaly friends end up working all day and having meals denied and Skooma used to control the addicts, and that actions speak louder than words. Either Ulfric allows this, or he is ignorant about what goes on in his own hold.

 

[thatwudbryan]

I haven't played the civil war, so I can't speak on that. However, I do believe the Dunmer's living conditions are confined to the Grey Quarter, the Argonians are confined to the docks, that our scaly friends end up working all day and having meals denied and Skooma used to control the addicts, and that actions speak louder than words. Either Ulfric allows this, or he is ignorant about what goes on in his own hold.

Hmmmmm minorities being forced in to living in the slums and having illegal substances flow through their community while the men in charge are aware n let it happen? How bout the Empire letting people die for standing up for their rights and beliefs? A RL comparison if I've ever seen one! Pick your poison, I already have n I say down with the empire. I'm not too big on dying idk bout you, it does 'sound nice' to be on the non-discriminating side though give you that Like you said though actions speak louder than words

 

[Captain Nagisus]

Ah, Americans... always thinking everything relates to their 5-century History =) I like the part where Great Britain is apparently a dying Empire...
I like Ulfric. Can someone quote me something racist he says? I'm serious, I've never heard anything racist coming from his mouth. He's very nationalist, but that's not necessarily the same as a racist: someone can be proud of being a Nord without hating the Khajiit.

He's never explicitly stated anything racist. I admit that. But his actions are blatant racism, more than just nationalism. Besides, nationalism is always the first step to something bad. Look at the BNP.

 

[Raijin]

Ah, Americans... always thinking everything relates to their 5-century History =) I like the part where Great Britain is apparently a dying Empire...
I like Ulfric. Can someone quote me something racist he says? I'm serious, I've never heard anything racist coming from his mouth. He's very nationalist, but that's not necessarily the same as a racist: someone can be proud of being a Nord without hating the Khajiit.

Out of 764 soundbytes that came with Ulfric's character not once have I heard anything racial coming out of the mouth of this man.

Here's what came close to him talking about the Dunmers

Driving the Empire out of Skyrim, and then taking the war to the Thalmor are presently more important then to worry about the Dark elves living condition. Ulfric isn't acting like a Jarl.... He's acting like a King.

If you go to a hospital ER with minor none life threatening injuries you will have to wait for your turn. After waiting for 3 hours to be seen by a doctor you get interrupted as someone with severe injuries just came in the ER, and was quickly seen by a doctor. While you may think it's unjustified after all that time you had to wait for the doctor... the fact is major events receives more attention.

 

[Dagmar]

...Their lack of participation in this war is upsetting the local nords therefour the bitterness results of harassment.

It's been pointed out to you time and time again that their treatment far predates the existence of the Stormcloak Rebellion so why do you continue to attempt to assert this easily refuted falsehood? In addition there's no evidence that any other resident is doing anything to actively support the Stormcloaks other than the blacksmiths so even ignoring the undeniable fact that the Dunmer's situation predates Ufric's ascension to Jarl of Eastmarch your claim is completely hollow.

 

[Dagmar]

For FullmetalHeart20 and all the Empire supporters. Just read that n let it sink in a lil bit.

I don't care much for either side but what you quoted simply isn't possible for the same reason that an invasion of Skyrim by the Aldmeri Dominion isn't possible. Just as the Aldmeri Dominion has no practical means to invade Skyrim by sea and no means to do so by land because it would require marching a large army through Cyrodiil or Hammerfell which neither province would tolerate, Stormcloaks also lack the same options.

 

[thatwudbryan]

I don't care much for either side but what you quoted simply isn't possible for the same reason that an invasion of Skyrim by the Aldmeri Dominion isn't possible. Just as the Aldmeri Dominion has no practical means to invade Skyrim by sea and no means to do so by land because it would require marching a large army through Cyrodiil or Hammerfell which neither province would tolerate, Stormcloaks also lack the same options.

I can't argue against your logic...

 

[Medea]

Ah, Americans... always thinking everything relates to their 5-century History =) I like the part where Great Britain is apparently a dying Empire...

You made this baby, so take care of it. God save the Queen

 

[Raijin]

It's been pointed out to you time and time again that their treatment far predates the existence of the Stormcloak Rebellion so why do you continue to attempt to assert this easily refuted falsehood? In addition there's no evidence that any other resident is doing anything to actively support the Stormcloaks other than the blacksmiths so even ignoring the undeniable fact that the Dunmer's situation predates Ufric's ascension to Jarl of Eastmarch your claim is completely hollow.

It's true that their treatment far predates the existence of the Stormcloak rebellion, but it doesn't help the situation that they refuse to help out in the war and uses their little excuse of explaining that it isn't their war to fight... and in fact that their seems to be an Imperial shrine on the second story floor inside their tavern.

 

[Dagmar]

Although, as an addition you altered your entire argument by stating that since xenophobia has its own amoral basis it is no less sinister than racism.

No I didn't I simply pointed out that it's no less problematic

You would not cling so desperately to the argument that "he is racist" rather than, "he is xenophobic; possibly racist,"

I'm not desperately clinging to anything. I'm observing actual things that go on in the game that support the notion that he's racist while the only things you attempt to rely upon are observations about the game that you can't even link to the situation of the Dunmer in Windhelm other than by using pure speculation with no sound logical basis to do so other than try to bridge that rather large gap to support a weak position refuted by the game lore.

Firstly, the Nords' distrust for Elvenkind appears to be blatantly more deep than any human species. With that being said, there is a single High Elf citizen who says when asked, "Are you treated as badly as the Dark Elves?" she replies by saying "It was difficult at first. The Nords of this city are, at best, suspicious of outsiders. But in time I made the right friends and proved myself useful enough that they don't give me trouble anymore. The Dunmer are too proud and naive to see the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum."

This does absolutely nothing to refute the fact that the Dunmer are the only group that have enforced segregated living arrangements and that it's based on their race.

....Their seclusion to the "Gray" Quarter seems more instrumented by the Nords of the city, than Ulfric himself (who is blind to the plight of non-Nords).,,

No it doesn't. The government in each hold is a feudal monarchy. Any policies and laws of the Hold other than those prevailing as Imperial law are by will of the Jarl and the Jarl alone and the acquisition of residence is also by will of the Jarl as illustrated by the fact that the Jarl or his or her Steward have the sole authority to grant your character a home in a capital city.

....Despite that argument itself, Niranye, the Altmer citizen from before, claims it is their fault for sticking to that slum.

She says nothing of the sort. She doesn't say they stick to the Gray Quarter which is a false assertion that they have a choice in the matter. That notion has been dispelled in these threads well over a dozen times at this point. All she is doing is expressing her opinion that if the Dunmer were more clever and practical they might find a way of turning around their situation.

....Oh...no... my notion has no teeth.... Nords have been historically suspicious of Elves.

No it doesn't. You can't tie it to the segregation law as the law bears no rational connection to addressing any concerns arising out of such suspicion. It doesn't prevent the Dunmer from engaging in any suspicious activity that might be the object of anyone's concern as they're still free to move about the city and associate with others.

....The time of war brought upon by an Elven Dominion also suggests that mere distrust may have evolved into revulsion and paranoia.

Elves of the Aldmeri Dominion are Altmer and Bosmer and the Thalmor are only Altmer. The actions of the Thalmor bear no relevance in how the Dunmer are perceived. The fact that the Altmer aren't treated with suspicion at all by the Nords of Windhelm also completely dismisses this notion as has been pointed out to you before.

....You have not provided solid evidence that this game provides undeniable content that contradicts my observation. If you haven't noticed, that's

I have presented as solid evidence as necessary and it's very tellng that you completely ignored the content of my post which does so. I have provided a dialogue which flatly states that the Dunmer are forced to live the Gray Quarter. I've also relied upon the fact that it predates any of the non-existent non race based reasons you've attempted to fabricate. I've also pointed out why it's existence can't be explained away by notions of suspicion or cultural contamination and can only be explained in terms of being based on their race.

....which does nothing but help my argument by admitting that it is possible there may be no race based xenophobia at all.

It does nothing of the sort. The fact that xenophobia in and of itself may be based on many things does absolutely nothing to support your flimsy argument that the xenophobia regardng the Dunmer of Windhlem is anything but race based.

.... I'll accept that these are "readily dismissed" when I've been convinced that you're, without a doubt, right and that Ulfric is an absolute filthy racist (as opposed to a haughty nationalist).

That's a completely illogical position to take. You don't have to believe that Ulfric is a racist to accept the fact that if Ulfric was actually concerned with the Dunmer contaminating Nord culture he wouldn't allow them to roam freely in the city as forcing them to live in the Gray Quarter does nothing to address a concern about cultural contamination. Nor do you have to accept that he's a racist to accept the fact that there's no concern about the Altmer residents of Windhelm doing the same even though there's an undeniable concern by the people of the Empire in general that the Thalmor present a very real threat to the cultures of all the provinces of the Empire. What you do have to do to not accept these facts is engage in willful blindness to what the game presents to you which is why I accurately state that you ignore game content as part of your attempts to support your weak positions.

You also don't have to be convinced that Ulfric is a an "absolute filthy" racist. There's nothing in the game that indicates he is an extreme racist or that it's a dominant core aspect of his personality, but he owns the segregation policies that he enforces and it's inaccurate to claim that the game doesn't attribute that relatively mild racist characteristic to him.

....I will admit, however not concede...

These are synonyms....

....It's your obsessive idea that I'm ignoring the content rather than gathering from it my own experience and case of debate

You have yet to present any basis from the game that supports any of your notions. Your arguments to the exent that you've tried to point to game content are either distortions of game content or are generic and can't be linked to anything that's going on in Windhelm which renders them valueless as support for your positions, especially in light of the fact that there is game content that directly supports and establishes that the segregation of the Dunmer in Windhelm is based on their race.

.....I understand the point of a debate. What you happen to include is mockery of my intelligence

When you take unintelligent positions and they get picked apart as such that's not mockery of your intelligence but taking them as an affront to the same simply because they are not given undeserved reverence or respect is a characteristic of pretentiousness.