Why do some People think Ulfric Stormcloak is Racist

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I'm sick of this.
Better take some pepto.
Racism
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Racism: Intolerance based on race. Got it.
Xenophobia
1. an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.
Xenophobia: Intolerance or fear based on being an outsider.

From my play-throughs, I've never gotten racist vibes from most of the Nords. They don't seem to appreciate any unique culture; they only accept their brethren. They do not trust outsiders, especially outsiders from Elven nations during a time after a war against another Elven dominion. There is no violent active pursuit to cleanse the world of insert-race-here (Oh, except by the Thalmor). If you have gathered something different, great.

This place is friendly, but no thanks.
 

Benthos

Proud Mer
Folks just need to remember the journal entries on Ulfric, he has led a group of Nords who all yell "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!", he refuses to let the Argonian within city limits of Windhelm while Denmer are treated like crap, he's the new Jarl of Windhelm and uses the Talos worship ban to back up his reasons to fight the Empire. The only time to kill him as well is at the end of the Empire's side of the civil war, other than that, he's essential and can only be killed by console commands. They even say that when anyone who aren't Nords ask for help, their problems are brushed aside and never looked upon again, these are problems directed to the Jarl personally as demonstrated at Solitude by the request sent by the guy from Dragon Bridge to check out that cave of Necromancers.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
I'm sick of this.
Racism
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Xenophobia
1. an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.

The Dunmer have lived in Windhelm longer than most human lifetimes, and are neither foreign or strange. Now could the delusional hypocrites please shut up?

While the Dunmer do have longer life expectancy , the fact to the matter is they were not in Windhelm first. They came to Skyrim after the eruption.

Fact is they came to Windhelm.... Windhelm did not go to them. The nords were there first, not them.
 

Captain Nagisus

Jake the Dog!
While the Dunmer do have longer life expectancy , the fact to the matter is they were not in Windhelm first. They came to Skyrim after the eruption.

Fact is they came to Windhelm.... Windhelm did not go to them.

I feel a lot of sympathy for the Argonians and Dunmer. But honestly - in the case of Argonians - why not go back to Morrowind? Sneak back in the night, Morrowind's ruled by Argonians now. I know Blacklight's a long way away, but it's better than nigh-slavery and segregation.

Also, you have to admit. They had no choice. Sure, a few Argonians and Dunmer went to Riften after the eruption instead - but they were from the south of Morrowind. The people in the north areas had to go to Windhelm - it was the first stop.
 
maybe hes a racist or maybe hes just a hankerin' to slap someodem who are we to judge

either way you slice it he wants to harm them and they aint his kind so ur either with him or without him. face it, ur going down if you aint his favorite and if you a lizard ur goin down to hell.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
I feel a lot of sympathy for the Argonians and Dunmer. But honestly - in the case of Argonians - why not go back to Morrowind? Sneak back in the night, Morrowind's ruled by Argonians now. I know Blacklight's a long way away, but it's better than nigh-slavery and segregation.

Also, you have to admit. They had no choice. Sure, a few Argonians and Dunmer went to Riften after the eruption instead - but they were from the south of Morrowind. The people in the north areas had to go to Windhelm - it was the first stop.

Blacklight Morrowind isn't all that far. Malborn (Wood elf) went to Morrowind to escape the Thalmor after he helped the Blades to smuggle the Dragonborn personal stuffs into their cozy little party. He also assisted in aiding the Dragonborn.

It's common sense that if you're not being treated with respect that you have a choice to move. I have no pity nor sympathy for the stupid. Instead of moaning and complaining about the way you're being treated and the living conditions that you have to live in.... MOVE! I'm sick of tired of people here making up excuses that they can't. For mara sake how difficult can it be? It's not all that complicated.

All of the pity and sympathies that I have goes to the Nords who became victims by the Thalmor all thanks to a a dying Empire. They either got killed or put in prisons for doing nothing more than to worship Talos. You would think the Dunmer's would be eager to help out, but no. It's not their war to fight.

Why should I show any sympathy for the Dunmer of Windhelm when they don't give two plopss about what's happening to the nords who's being carted away by the Thalmor.

You think they show sympathies for them? Hell no.


edited....

I rather live in the slums of Windhelm rather be in the hands of the Thalmor

They're quite brutal in their methods to get fully grown men to talk by making them cry out in pain. Ulfric has personal experience dealing with the Thalmor, and knows how vicious they are. So call Ulfric whatever name you want. Call him a racist... asshole,etc. Sue him for not taking first priories to make the Dunmers of windhelm happy and satisfied while his people are being slaughtered.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
The absurd comment was yours. You said Tamriel was a planet, and now you're getting confused. The races belong to separate provinces which hold their own cultures.
So what? You didn't say any foreigners in a province, you said:
any foreigner in Tamriel
None of the races are foreigners to Tamriel. Just as none are foreign to Nirn which is why the statement is still nonsensical regardless of what you were actually trying to say. But lets move on from poor diction.
Xenophobia means basically one who is against foreigners.
No it doesn't. By its etymology xenophobia means fear of what's strange or alien to a person. It's a biological impulse that served our ancestors well before civilization by causing them to approach all new things with caution lest it result in injury or death. Xenophobia and racism aren't mutually exclusive because xenophobia can be based exclusively on on a groups ethnicity or ancestry, it just may not necessarily be so. Regardless of whether it is solely, partially, or not at all race based it's no less irrational and therefore no more laudable than racism and in the end it does little to differentiate how one evaluates the character of a person, especially if the xenophobia is partially or wholly based on race or ancestry.
When was it stated that they were segregated for their racial background by the game and not a Dark Elf?
The "game" doesn't state anything about anything except through the words and actions of others in the game be it through NPC dialogues and actions or books written by people of the Elder Scrolls Universe. Therefore there's no distinction between what the "game" tells you and what an NPC tells you. There is no objective basis to disqualify a statement because it comes from a Dunmer unless you can point to a statement from someone else that contradicts the notion, e.g. "the Dunmer can live anywhere they choose to live in Windhelm, they just choose to live in isolation because they don't want to integrate into mainstream Windhelm society" (nothing like this is said in the game), a document written by someone else e.g. a book saying something to the same effect as the aforementioned made-up NPC dialogue, or the actions of an NPC, e.g a Dunmer actually living in another quarter of the city.

In the absence of contrary content what's said by NPC's is accepted as part of the lore of the games. One can argue why one thinks any statement of any NPC in the game should be considered unreliable but in the absence of actual contradictory game content to support one's notion much of the lore can be dismissed as unusable to support any conclusions about the Elder Scrolls universe. If you choose to insist on thinking that way that's your prerogative but that puts you outside the lore and basically outside any meaningful discussion about what's going on in the game.

Even putting that aside, one of the first people you can talk to as you approach the gates of Windhelm is the Nord Windhelm carriage driver who flat out tells you the Dunmer are forced to live in the Gray Quarter so yes, the Dunmer are subjet to a racial segregation law in Windhelm which can only be reconciled as non-racist if you also share the notion that the segregation of African Americans in southern America wasn't racist either.
They can be segregated for anything, but particularly because they're aliens to Skyrim.
The Dunmer are segregated because of their race. The Altmer, Breton, and Imperial citizens of Windhelm are no less foreign to the city thant the Dunmer. Claiming that non race based xenophobia is the basis for their treatment is roughly the equivalent of claiming that the racism displayed by the conservative elements in the United States against Hispanics isn't racism even though Hispanics have been well established and integrated into American society for hundreds of years.
And why are you comparing a video game story to the American segregation period?
I am comparing racial segregation to racial segregation. The fact that you would claim that it's not racial segregation based on covoluted flimsy arguments that have no support from the game content and are largely refuted by it doesn't change that fact no matter how hard you try to ignore it.
Or because they don't trust outside cultures.
Nothing in the game suggests that a cultural divide is what motivates the racial segregation of the Dunmer. The game content suggests the contrary as the mere segregation of the Dunmer with what basically amounts to their sleeping arrangements does absolutely nothing to comfort a distrust of outside cultures. The Dunmer are free to roam about Windhelm spreading their non-existent cultural contamination to the non-existent dismay of the local Nord population irrespective of the segregation policy. This is also why the statement:
The Nords have always been suspicious of them.
Is an equally toothless notion. Putting aside the fact that the Nords have not been historically suspicious of Dunmer (if anything the opposite is true because the Nords have a history of being aggressors against Morrowind, invading it several times without provocation) suspicious of what? The residential restriction does absolutely nothing to comfort suspicions that any Nord might harbor that the Dunmer may be doing something untrustworthy, as evidenced by the words of Rolff Stone-fist when you first enter through the front gates of the city.
It's part of persistent xenophobia.
You mean the nonexistent ingame non-race based xenophobia you've been advocating by pointing at nothing other than your speculation while trying to dismiss away game content that contradicts the same?
I don't think you understand that I was listing potential reasons for xenophobia; not necessarily every individual potential reason was going to be their trigger.
Then why list ones that are readily dismissed by the lore and require you to ignore it?
No, there's always a difference. Culture and race are different. If you cannot fathom that then... there is a problem. Culture is a product of a people. Race is a product of nature and evolution.
When the people that produce the culture are of a specific race and the culture is effectively viewed as exclusive to that race that's a difference without a distinction. If you can't fathom that then there is a problem. For example, Antisemitism has the characteristics of both racism and xenophobia because there is overlap between the two. Just as a Jew is a Jew and the object of hatred for all antisemites regardless of whether a Jew observes the faith or not, a Dunmer is a Dunmer and the object of segregation regardless of whether the Dunmer observes the cultural practices of the Dunmer as a whole. A Dunmer will never escape the restriction to the Gray Quarter no matter how "un-Dunmer" he or she may be in life solely because he or she is a Dunmer. While that may or may not have some root in none race based xenophobia, it is ultimately and undeniably based on his or her race and thus racism.
but there is a much greater chance the Stormcloaks are a bunch of xenophobes than racists.
The Stormcloaks as individuals may not even harbor any particularly xenophibic or racist characterisitics. Some may be fighting solely to end the rampage of the Thalmor in Skyrim and to reestablish the open worship of Talos. Notwithstanding that, because they choose to pledge their fealty to Ulfric, they're beholden to enforce his will. All of it, including what they might consider bad, along with what they may believe to be good and right.
Xenophobia, in case you didn't think this was possible, can continually persist and be passed through generations.
That kind of xenophobia is only sustainable as racism. Unless you consider the multi-generational antisemitism of islamist extremists or the multi-generational anti-everything not white of the Aryan Nation and its ilk to be non race based xenophobia, your distinction is empty and meaningless. I challenge you to present one example of multigenerational xenophobia that doesn't rely upon hatred of either ethnicity or ancestry to sustain itself.

Pointing out that the positions of....
...a person with a different opinion and formulated view of everything gathered from ...
...his ignoring what the game presents to him and fabricating his own independent alternative and contradictory version of what is going on in the game aren't perusasive and don't refute the actual existence of racist characteristics of an NPC in the game isn't obsessive regardless of puerile attempts to claim it as such. If you don't like the idea of having your subjective opinions that are borne purely by your inner speculations picked apart as such when you try to advocate that they are anything more than that then don't post them. Otherwise they're fair game for open criticism.
 

Benthos

Proud Mer
While the Dunmer do have longer life expectancy , the fact to the matter is they were not in Windhelm first. They came to Skyrim after the eruption.

Fact is they came to Windhelm.... Windhelm did not go to them. The nords were there first, not them.
And that gives the Nords the right to treat any and all outsiders the way they've been treating them in Windhelm? It seems that when Imperials run a town, there's more peace and prospering families as opposed to the Stormcloaks and Nords. Take a look at Whiterun for example, when you first show up, the worst you find there are the fights between the Graymanes and the Battle-borns, disputing over the war which Ulfric started. Take a look at the businesses, the smithing couple at the entrance for example. If you aid the Stormcloaks into conquering the city, they refuse to do any business with the Redguard wife. She is an amazing blacksmith and if it weren't for her husband, she wouldn't get any business at all, she says so herself. She's lucky she married a Nord just for business if Whiterun is held by the Stormcloaks.


I feel a lot of sympathy for the Argonians and Dunmer. But honestly - in the case of Argonians - why not go back to Morrowind? Sneak back in the night, Morrowind's ruled by Argonians now. I know Blacklight's a long way away, but it's better than nigh-slavery and segregation.

Also, you have to admit. They had no choice. Sure, a few Argonians and Dunmer went to Riften after the eruption instead - but they were from the south of Morrowind. The people in the north areas had to go to Windhelm - it was the first stop.
So "If you don't like this country, just move, simple as that" is your debate for that? What if they don't really have that choice? What if they fear that if they try to head back, they die? They aren't all capable of sneaking around like the Thieves Guild or Shadowscales. The last one in existence is in the Dark Brotherhood and these Argonians outside of Windhelm are clearly not capable of the stuff those two groups normally are doing every day. Home is home, simple as that, if you're born and raised somewhere (they've been there for generations) you're going to be unsure about traveling to a place you're unsure of, especially since there is no true secure path back to Marrowind.
They have maps and landmarks to travel by, the stars in the sky and the threat of animals and bandits.

Blacklight Morrowind isn't all that far. Malborn (Wood elf) went to Morrowind to escape the Thalmor after he helped the Blades to smuggle the Dragonborn personal stuffs into their cozy little party. He also assisted in aiding the Dragonborn.

It's common sense that if you're not being treated with respect that you have a choice to move. I have no pity nor sympathy for the stupid. Instead of moaning and complaining about the way you're being treated and the living conditions that you have to live in.... MOVE! I'm sick of tired of people here making up excuses that they can't. For mara sake how difficult can it be? It's not all that complicated.

All of the pity and sympathies that I have goes to the Nords who became victims by the Thalmor all thanks to a a dying Empire. They either got killed or put in prisons for doing nothing more than to worship Talos. You would think the Dunmer's would be eager to help out, but no. It's not their war to fight.

Why should I show any sympathy for the Dunmer of Windhelm when they don't give two plopss about what's happening to the nords who's being carted away by the Thalmor.

You think they show sympathies for them? Hell no.


edited....

I rather live in the slums of Windhelm rather be in the hands of the Thalmor

They're quite brutal in their methods to get fully grown men to talk by making them cry out in pain. Ulfric has personal experience dealing with the Thalmor, and knows how vicious they are. So call Ulfric whatever name you want. Call him a racist... asshole,etc. Sue him for not taking first priories to make the Dunmers of windhelm happy and satisfied while his people are being slaughtered.
Well, Dunmer are also treated ill by the Thalmor as well, the High Elves treat all other races the same, they would torture the Dunmer just the same, they treated Malborn with the same as they would've treated anyone else and he's a Wood Elf, he also is used to traveling in the trees (Wood Elves live in trees throughout history and can travel via tree tops as well as blending in their natural surroundings, he could make it back no problem because it's 2nd nature to him, plus if an animal is near, he can call it to help him if he's attacked, the same can't be said for the others). If Khajit travelers are jumped and killed by bandits, then you can rest assured other unprepared groups won't be prepared and able to travel back either. Khajit aren't allowed in ANY city in Skyrim, at least Argonians and Dunmer can go within city walls.

And why should the Dunmer show sympathy toward the Nord captives when those same Nords wouldn't bat a second thought to them when they need help? Same reasoning there, we spot other races also imprisoned within the dungeon of Northwatch Keep, it's not just Nords being captured and tortured.
 

FullmetalHeart20

Well-Known Member
Raijin? Even though the Dunmer weren't in Windhelm first, please remember they didn't just fall out of the sky like aliens. What I meant was that there were Dunmer living in the city for at least 100 years, probably longer. They are a part of it. There isn't a single Nord alive who can remember when Dunmer didn't live in Windhelm.
As for running away, why would they do that? Are Nords the only ones allowed to have courage. Personally, I wouldn't run even if I had the means. I'd rather resist such treatment then leave and be called a milk drinking elf for doing so.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
And that gives the Nords the right to treat any and all outsiders the way they've been treating them in Windhelm? It seems that when Imperials run a town, there's more peace and prospering families as opposed to the Stormcloaks and Nords. Take a look at Whiterun for example, when you first show up, the worst you find there are the fights between the Graymanes and the Battle-borns, disputing over the war which Ulfric started. Take a look at the businesses, the smithing couple at the entrance for example. If you aid the Stormcloaks into conquering the city, they refuse to do any business with the Redguard wife. She is an amazing blacksmith and if it weren't for her husband, she wouldn't get any business at all, she says so herself. She's lucky she married a Nord just for business if Whiterun is held by the Stormcloaks.

I did not say that the Nords have the right to treat outsiders like trash. They do not. However lets be realistic. The Dunmers of windhelm.... Stormcloaks HQ mind you refuses to help out the Stormcloaks because it's not their war, according to that woman Dunmer. Their lack of participation in this war is upsetting the local nords therefour the bitterness results of harassment. So you think Imperials who runs a town indicates peace and prospering families, eh? Go ask the people in Riften under Maven's rulings :) Ulfric is not at fault for the conflict between the Graymanes and the battle-born. Theirs much more too then politics that broke up the relationship between them both. Olfrid Battle-Born got rich and decided to get himself some new (wealthy) friends. also at the beginning Idolaf Battle-Born is seen requesting armor and weapons for the imperial army. It was a big order. The woman blacksmith told him that she wasn't able to carry such order, and that she told him to go to Eorlund Gray-Mane. He refuses to contract Eorlund Gray-Mane for the job, stating that he would "sooner bend his knee to Ulfric Stormcloak." So I guess he doesn't want quality armor for the imperial army after all. As far as refusing to do business with the woman blacksmith because shes a redguard I don't buy it. People want quality, and Eorlund can do exactly that :)

So "If you don't like this country, just move, simple as that" is your debate for that? What if they don't really have that choice? What if they fear that if they try to head back, they die? They aren't all capable of sneaking around like the Thieves Guild or Shadowscales. The last one in existence is in the Dark Brotherhood and these Argonians outside of Windhelm are clearly not capable of the stuff those two groups normally are doing every day. Home is home, simple as that, if you're born and raised somewhere (they've been there for generations) you're going to be unsure about traveling to a place you're unsure of, especially since there is no true secure path back to Marrowind.
They have maps and landmarks to travel by, the stars in the sky and the threat of animals and bandits.

They have a choice and even if they're afraid they could always hire mercenaries or the companions to help them along. Nobody said that living in Skyrim is 100% safe. Theirs danger all around. If you are weak, and have a fort... you will lose it to the bandits. It's the way of life in Skyrim.


Well, Dunmer are also treated ill by the Thalmor as well, the High Elves treat all other races the same, they would torture the Dunmer just the same, they treated Malborn with the same as they would've treated anyone else and he's a Wood Elf, he also is used to traveling in the trees (Wood Elves live in trees throughout history and can travel via tree tops as well as blending in their natural surroundings, he could make it back no problem because it's 2nd nature to him, plus if an animal is near, he can call it to help him if he's attacked, the same can't be said for the others). If Khajit travelers are jumped and killed by bandits, then you can rest assured other unprepared groups won't be prepared and able to travel back either. Khajit aren't allowed in ANY city in Skyrim, at least Argonians and Dunmer can go within city walls.

If what you said are true then this would be more of an incentive for the Dunmers of Windhelm to join up with the Stormcloaks and fight those Thalmor bastards. Perhaps if they proven themselves worthy then maybe they would be more respected among the nord residents. Malbornisn't all that strong. you see after you kill the Thalmor assassin he thanks you and then runs to morrowind. He gets approached by 2 frost trolls which they both own him. I usually have to help him out for his chances for surviving the travel. He does not tame the frost troll, or call them.

And why should the Dunmer show sympathy toward the Nord captives when those same Nords wouldn't bat a second thought to them when they need help? Same reasoning there, we spot other races also imprisoned within the dungeon of Northwatch Keep, it's not just Nords being captured and tortured.

What exactly does the Dunmer need help with may I ask? other than to live in the G.Q their actually doing quite well. they have farms, street vendors and a pawn store. And yes theirs other races that the thalmor capture. You would think that the Dunmers would help out, but no. They're only concern is their own kind while the rest can rot for all they are.
 

FullmetalHeart20

Well-Known Member
We can only understand so much Raijin. When one provides a sound argument against you, you just come up with some half baked argument to dismiss it. The Redguard smith in Whiterun never complains about business until Ulfric takes over. The Dunmer have been segregated since before Ulfric takes power. Is it whining to complain about a lack of protection? If so, also justify how Ulfric doesn't send aid to non Nords targeted by bandits and thugs. It's clear there's only one thing he has in mind, and that's the Nords. Please don't give any B.S about how that's alright anyway.
 

Docta Corvina

Well-Known Member
First of all, Adrianne Avenicci, the Whiterun blacksmith, is actually an Imperial - make of that what you will.

Secondly, given that the Dunmer have been in Windhelm for so long, as much as some people like to say that they came to the city and it didn't come to them, the same can be said for Ulfric's war. They've been there far longer than Ulfric has been Jarl and even longer still than the time he's been waging this rebellion. They have every right to say "Hey, no, this ISN'T our fight". Just because a group of Nords there decide that fighting with the Imperials is what's best, they and all of Skyrim are still beholden to the laws of the Empire as much as Ulfric and his ilk might like to believe otherwise. Not everyone in Windhelm, not even every Nord, is with Ulfric's program, so to speak.

In addition to all of that, I see no real incentive to take up arms or provide resources to an immediate group of people who really at the end of the day largely don't appear to give a skeever's ass how you fare or have fared. And no, I am not saying all Stormcloaks despise Dunmer. But some of the most vocal Stormcloak sympathizers in Windhelm don't mind making clear their disdain. And from the Dark Elves' vantage point, the leader of the faction, as Jarl, has done little to nothing to implement positive change since he's been there.

Once again, had Ulfric been a different kind of character, one who sought to bring more people into the fold early on, one who curried favor and made a real effort, I think we would have seen a vastly different scenario. The policies he has upheld are in some ways to his own detriment as much as to that of the Dunmer.
 

thatwudbryan

yet another skyrim enthusiast
And that gives the Nords the right to treat any and all outsiders the way they've been treating them in Windhelm? It seems that when Imperials run a town, there's more peace and prospering families as opposed to the Stormcloaks and Nords. Take a look at Whiterun for example, when you first show up, the worst you find there are the fights between the Graymanes and the Battle-borns, disputing over the war which Ulfric started. Take a look at the businesses, the smithing couple at the entrance for example. If you aid the Stormcloaks into conquering the city, they refuse to do any business with the Redguard wife. She is an amazing blacksmith and if it weren't for her husband, she wouldn't get any business at all, she says so herself. She's lucky she married a Nord just for business if Whiterun is held by the Stormcloaks.



So "If you don't like this country, just move, simple as that" is your debate for that? What if they don't really have that choice? What if they fear that if they try to head back, they die? They aren't all capable of sneaking around like the Thieves Guild or Shadowscales. The last one in existence is in the Dark Brotherhood and these Argonians outside of Windhelm are clearly not capable of the stuff those two groups normally are doing every day. Home is home, simple as that, if you're born and raised somewhere (they've been there for generations) you're going to be unsure about traveling to a place you're unsure of, especially since there is no true secure path back to Marrowind.
They have maps and landmarks to travel by, the stars in the sky and the threat of animals and bandits.


Well, Dunmer are also treated ill by the Thalmor as well, the High Elves treat all other races the same, they would torture the Dunmer just the same, they treated Malborn with the same as they would've treated anyone else and he's a Wood Elf, he also is used to traveling in the trees (Wood Elves live in trees throughout history and can travel via tree tops as well as blending in their natural surroundings, he could make it back no problem because it's 2nd nature to him, plus if an animal is near, he can call it to help him if he's attacked, the same can't be said for the others). If Khajit travelers are jumped and killed by bandits, then you can rest assured other unprepared groups won't be prepared and able to travel back either. Khajit aren't allowed in ANY city in Skyrim, at least Argonians and Dunmer can go within city walls.

And why should the Dunmer show sympathy toward the Nord captives when those same Nords wouldn't bat a second thought to them when they need help? Same reasoning there, we spot other races also imprisoned within the dungeon of Northwatch Keep, it's not just Nords being captured and tortured.
Racism arguement aside but straight to your last point, why should the nords show sympathy towards the dunmer, or Any other non-nord race for that matter? Seriously though look at it this way, there are other races being captured by the Thalmor that are not strictly nords correct? N of course there not Ulfric/Stormcloak supporters because the whole segregation in Windhelm being no secret so they join the empire, who BTW are just sitting and waiting while All these people of all races are being caught, interrogatted killed n what have you. That being said, what is the Stormcloak rebellion about? Standing up and fighting for their rights and freedom, while 'everyone else' is sitting back, letting all this happen and crying about it!!! From the Stormcloaks's POV, you don't like it? Join us and prove your allegience to the cause, respect is earned not given, you think its an abosolute fact that Ulfric would turn down help from the dunmer and argonian citizens of his own Hold to fight against the injustice thats currently going on in Skyrim? I'm not so sure about that, like I said for some respect is earned not given, unlike the imperials and look where that got them, in shambles
 

FullmetalHeart20

Well-Known Member
thatwudbryan? Are you seriously defending Ulfrics racism? Your argument seems to be 'if they don't support my agenda, they deserve it'. Also, what the fluff do you mean "racism argument aside"? That's the entire purpose of this thread. Ulfric is a blatant, unrepentant racist. If you're seriously arguing that it's acceptable, you're either a troll or wrong in the head.
And while you're talking about the CW, please tell us what the Stormcoaks military is like. If their soldiers, weapons, food supplies and other basic aspects of a standing army aren't sufficient to win after a few decades, how do they go about crushing the Thalmor like so many SC supporters assume they will?
 

thatwudbryan

yet another skyrim enthusiast
thatwudbryan? Are you seriously defending Ulfrics racism? Your argument seems to be 'if they don't support my agenda, they deserve it'. Also, what the fu** do you mean "racism argument aside"? That's the entire purpose of this thread. Ulfric is a blatant, unrepentant racist. If you're seriously arguing that it's acceptable, you're either a troll or wrong in the head.
And while you're talking about the CW, please tell us what the Stormcoaks military is like. If their soldiers, weapons, food supplies and other basic aspects of a standing army aren't sufficient to win after a few decades, how do they go about crushing the Thalmor like so many SC supporters assume they will?
Hey hey now, as much as you like making RL comparisons between whichever side one chooses in Skyrim doesn't reflect on my RL viewpoint towards racial discrimination, I'm a mutt dude, I don't care for or tolerate racism so lets get that clear and that idea out your head from the start. About the whole defending Ulfric's racism/discrimination bit, I'm just trying to explain the best I can what his reasons for doing such things are, n you know what? In game, I see where he's comin from and ultimately would side with him over Tulius and the oh so perfect never-wrong-doing Empire. Unrepentant racist you say? If he was the KKK extremest that empire supporters believe he'd have Killed all the dunmer and argonians by now for not helping his cause while living in his hold, I won't even mention the dunmer who keeps Imperial Officer gear in his home. The empire laying down and waiting while nords and mer alike are being tortured, interrogatted and killed acceptable??? Nahhhhh, not even a little bit. Ulfric and the SC's rising up saying 'F YOU we will bring the fight to all you pansies'? A wee bit more acceptable in game, to be sure. N for your last little tid bit, check Austin_Chaos' last post or one of the last few, thats basically what I believe would ignite Everyone to rise against the Thalmor. Because the Empire sure aint doin much of jack plops other than sit back n get punked by both the Thalmor And Ulfric and his rag-tag group of Stormcloaks. The empire wouldn't/didn't and probably Couldn't ignite such a thing as was mentioned (Austin_Chaos' hopeful yet very believable idea/assumption) The brave and ballsy SC's??? I'd say they got the moxy to do such a thing.

I'll make a RL comparison :eek: from sports no less! :eek::eek: Lets say you're playing a pickup basketball game, your teams down 13-21 and the games up to 25, lets say your a very skilled ball-player with height, size, speed and all the dribbling and shooting skills and couple others as well are the same but you all decide 'its over, 2 more buckets for them and its game', (the Empire) then another guy on your team, little dude no ball skills, can't shoot can't dribble isn't particularly good at anything but shows heart and goes balls out every play despite being down due to his pride and refusal to go down like a chump (The Stormcloaks). Lets say he goes on a bit of a run and makes some shots, gets some defensive stops and continues going balls out refusing to lose, Any competitor would look at that and say "damn well if this guy aint giving up and is giving it his all despite the odds and his overall lack of ball skills, then I'm going to step up for this guy and give it my all too!" Thats how I could imagine the Stormcloaks overcoming the odds, take out the empire in Skyrim (underdog victory already) then take it to the Thalmor, I'd imagine some people would see that and say 'well damn if they got up showed initiative to change the mess that the Thalmor is creating for everyone then maybe we should fight along side them differences aside, theres a greater enemy at hand than this racist chump!' Stormcloaks would lead by example while the empire in cyrodiil could regroup and regain their strenght, or would they go after the Stormcloaks first because of their minor loss to them? o_O Now that wouldn't make them much different from the SC's, now would it?
 

thatwudbryan

yet another skyrim enthusiast
There is certainly that aspect, and history has shown that there have been plenty of underdog victories. In my personal opinion, a unified strike against the Thalmor by the Stormcloaks could potentially A) Turn the tides of the battle in favor of the Empire (because even if the Stormcloaks win, all will need to be united versus the Dominion) and B) Rally non-supporters to the cause due to the extremely patriotic showing by the Stormcloaks.

In fact, if we really want a fun little twist, a Stormcloak win could actually unify Skyrim, and re-establish both the strength of the Empire, and Skyrim's connection to it. Granted, this would all take quite a long time, but if the Stormcloaks were to be successful in defending the people of Skyrim, the country would be unified again, A unified Skyrim could agree to renegotiate its position within the Empire, so as to provide a united front against the Dominion, and really swing things in the Empire's favor.

Hypothetically, of course.
For FullmetalHeart20 and all the Empire supporters. ;) Just read that n let it sink in a lil bit.
 

Captain Nagisus

Jake the Dog!
Why don't we all just chop off Ulfric's racist face and replace him with a nicer Stormcloak? Lonely-Gale seems quite nice.
 

Captain Nagisus

Jake the Dog!
My vote's still for Ralof when it comes to winning the Stormcloak Public Relations war. :p

Yeah, Ralof's quite nice. Anyone but Ulfric, Galmar, or...what's his name, that really racist guy who always hangs around outside Candlehearth hall.
 

Docta Corvina

Well-Known Member
For FullmetalHeart20 and all the Empire supporters. ;) Just read that n let it sink in a lil bit.

LOL, how considerate of you. :p

It seems to me many of us "Empire supporters" have been readily acknowledging Thalmor devilry since the beginning. I have no doubt that their goal is to divide and conquer. It played out to their benefit in Hammerfell, and we see it happening again in Skyrim. I've no illusions otherwise. The divergence comes in responding to such a perceived scenario. And some of us rather think efforts at uniting are far better than succumbing to divisions and subversion-by-proxy.
 

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