Why do some People think Ulfric Stormcloak is Racist

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Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
..Not to mention the Thu'um, something NO Elf could match magic or not...
Vivec did it to Wulfharth. At the time, Vivec was a Dunmer warrior who defeated Ysmir Wulfharth, known as Shor's Tongue and Dragon of the North at the Battle of the Red Mountain. Honestly I don't know why players think that having the power of Thu'um is some kind of big game changer in any large scale conflict, especially when it's not supported by the ingame mechanics or the lore. Tiber Septim didn't win battles with Thu'um even before his throat was cut. He won them because he was a good military leader and strategist. Thu'um is just a different form of magic. That doesn't make it superior in any way to conventional magic or even an exceptionally skilled well equipped warrior as illustrated when my Lydia kills multiple Draugr Deathlords with her sword and shield enchanted with conventional magic.

 

FullmetalHeart20

Well-Known Member
Yes, a underdog Stormcloak victory would be satisfying...but would it work? The main reason I can't support them is because I can't see them winning. They are a fraction of the force that fought in the Great War. If they could face the Dominon in battle, they'd be in Alinor bashing heads by now. Instead, they seem to take out their aggression on the Empire that signed the WGC. It's not about weather the treaty is right. It's not about weather they're justified. They're single purpose in Skyrim seems to be fighting and crippling their own species.
 
It just so happens that almost any foreigner in Tamriel is of a different race or culture. Whereas it is absolutely questionable whether Ulfric is "racist" as we use it now, it is absolutely undeniable that he and many Nords are understandably xenophobic.

I'm going xenophobia, not racism.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
It just so happens that almost any foreigner in Tamriel is of a different race or culture.
Lolwut? Tamriel is a planet. The only "foreigners" are those from other planes of existence.
Whereas it is absolutely questionable whether Ulfric is "racist".
It's only questionable to those that don't understand what racism is. Enforcing segregation laws that treat a group unequally solely because of their race, even with something as relatively minor as where they can live in the city, is racism. I'm going with linguistics and logic.
 
Oh, Dagmar no. Tamriel is a continent, like Atmora, Yokuda, etc. "Nirn" is the planet. There are little things called "provinces" in these continents. Mundus is the world. I'm new to the lore but I'm pretty positive I gathered all that.

I'm going with logic here too (such as, Tamriel being a continent, not a planet); I'm lucky it's not biased. I know the Nords are xenophobic, particularly the stormcloaks. I'd rather not get into a potentially vitriolic spitting contest about whether or not the actions of Ulfric Stormcloak - a video game character - are to be interpreted as racist or purely xenophobic.

I understand racism pretty clearly. Do you understand xenophobia? Why does segregating them have to fall categorically under racism? Why does that exclude the actions to racism? It is possible they are segregated because they are untrusted aliens? For intense fear of losing cultural purity? It is deep-rooted and irrational hatred of their culture, rather than the individual race of these individuals?

Too bad my High Elf Mage was unlucky enough to rise to the top of the ranks in the Stormcloak camp because they were racist against her. Damn shame too... Oh.. wait.. what?
 

Saint Vicious

Still sober
I think Ulfric is racist because of this "Why would an Orc want to join the Stormcloaks?" Just the tone of his voice when he said "Orc". It does not matter if i'm a dadgum Orc! He should have said "Why do you want to join the Stormcloaks sir?" politely. After I killed Alduin, lead the Companions, Became Thane of just about everywhere, and even play tag with kids on my time off, just because I'm a nice guy. He talks to me like that. Refers to me as just Orc. Even when he should know my name, it says it right there on the screen.

I'm sorry that's it, I diddent mean to go on a rant. I just think green people with big teeth, furry people with tails, and even scaly people with tails should be treated with respect. And i'm sure MLK would agree with me.
 
Xenophobes would ask, suspiciously, "why would an insert-name-of-an-external-culture-here want to join our insert-cause-of-national-concern-here?" Or maybe xenophobes would clutch their purses amidst shouts of "Gaijin!" Who knows?

I'm pretty sure Orcs and Nords don't get along for some reason. Come to think of it: Does anyone like Orcs? They're damn ugly.
 

Saint Vicious

Still sober
I probably should have put a warning, just to avoid offending resident Orcs that visit this forum. I'm new here, I wasn't sure what demographic it attracted. Sorry.

Aha, nah it's cool. This forum contains some of everything, Orcs, cat people, lizard people, pointy ears and even somewhat regular people.
 
You mean Orcs, Cat People, Lizard People, Pointy Ears People, and everybody else? Sorry, I need to color code them to identify how different they are.

Personally, I've been looking for trolls.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
Oh, Dagmar no. Tamriel is a continent
Whoops. It still doesn't change the absurdity of your comment since all the known races are native to the continent and none are foreign to it. The fact that you would primp about as if the world versus continent distinction makes your statement any less LOLable simply underscores your inability to grasp what was so wrong about your statement.
I'm going with logic here too
No you're not. If you're not biased than you're simply ignorant about what defines racism because you apparently think that segregation based on race isn't a form of racism. I guess in your alternate reality the segregation of African Americans in the southern United States that predated the American Civil Rights Movement didn't constitute racism.
Why does segregating them have to fall categorically under racism?
Because they're segregated because of their race.
It is possible they are segregated because they are untrusted aliens?
No it's not. They've been living in Windhelm for 180 years. This argument has been deconstructed and eviscerated several dozen times over so I can only assume that you're just completely clueless as to the background of the Dunmer in Windhelm.
For intense fear of losing cultural purity?
Yes, because allowing the Dunmer to work and roam freely in Windhelm won't threaten a delusional belief in losing cultural purity but not keeping them in one area to sleep at night will. :rolleyes: This of course also requires you to be wilfully blind to the fact that there's no concern about losing cultural purity to the Altmer who share the same race as the Thalmor who are widely hated not only in Windhelm but all of the Empire.
It is deep-rooted and irrational hatred of their culture, rather than the individual race of these individuals?
When the culture is inherently, inseparably, and illogically attributed to the race this is a difference without a distinction even if you're incapable of grasping that fact.
Too bad my High Elf Mage was unlucky enough to rise to the top of the ranks in the Stormcloak camp because they were racist against her. Damn shame too... Oh.. wait.. what?
Ah yes, the favorite argument of the clueless that fail to acknowledge that this is nothing more than a reflection of the developers lengths to allow the player to choose race without affecting the ability to explore all quests and lean on it as crutch to ignore everything else the game presents to you and simply pretend that immersion shattering contradictions are preferable to creative roleplay explanations as to why your character is able to do the things they do. Thanks for illustrating and admitting that your playstyle is to simply ignore what the game presents to you. It helps explain why you can pretend that Ulfric isn't at all racist and the segregation of the Dunmer is because he doesn't trust these "strangers" that have been living and participating in Windhelm society for almost two centuries. :rolleyes:
 
Whoops. It still doesn't change the absurdity of your comment since all the known races are native to the continent and none are foreign to it. The fact that you would primp about as if the world versus continent distinction makes your statement any less LOLable simply underscores your inability to grasp what was so wrong about your statement.

The absurd comment was yours. You said Tamriel was a planet, and now you're getting confused. The races belong to separate provinces, each which maintain their own cultures. This is a similar idea to countries we have in the real world. So, Nords belong to Skyrim, Reguards to Hammerfell, etc. Xenophobia refers to an individual who opposes and/or fears foreigners/outsiders/"intruders". They are foreigners to the Nords. How is this difficult to comprehend? PS you sure love spitting contests on forums where you're a regular, don't you? Hold close to those insults, Dagmar. Stay classy ;)
No you're not. If you're not biased than you're simply ignorant about what defines racism because you apparently think that segregation based on race isn't a form of racism. I guess in your alternate reality the segregation of African Americans in the southern United States that predated the American Civil Rights Movement didn't constitute racism.

Yes, I am. I said logic isn't biased, however neither am I. There is no ignorance about racism displayed here by anyone but you; unfortunately that is not the only thing about which you are ignorant. When was it stated that they were segregated for their racial background by the game and not because they are mistrusted for their alien status? I think you still misunderstand, or you're just making things up. They can be segregated for anything, but particularly because they're aliens to Skyrim. You know - foreigners - from Morrowind. Xenophobia and foreigners... you know. Why are you comparing a video game story to the American segregation period? Segregation isn't only related to race, FYI.
Because they're segregated because of their race.

Or because they don't trust outside cultures.
No it's not. They've been living in Windhelm for 180 years. This argument has been deconstructed and eviscerated several dozen times over so I can only assume that you're just completely clueless as to the background of the Dunmer in Windhelm.

Yes, it is. The Nords have always been suspicious of them. It's part of persistent xenophobia. Or perhaps the executions performed ritually by the Thalmor have formed a paranoid distrust against Elven kind? I'll ignore the mature personal attacks.
Yes, because allowing the Dunmer to work and roam freely in Windhelm won't threaten a delusional belief in losing cultural purity but not keeping them in one area to sleep at night will. :rolleyes: This of course also requires you to be wilfully blind to the fact that there's no concern about losing cultural purity to the Altmer who share the same race as the Thalmor who are widely hated not only in Windhelm but all of the Empire.

I don't think you understand that I was exploring potential reasons for xenophobia; not necessarily every individual potential reason was going to be their trigger. I think it's more likely the "deep-rooted and intense hatred of their culture" that persists. So that was a bust.
When the culture is inherently, inseparably, and illogically attributed to the race this is a difference without a distinction even if you're incapable of grasping that fact.

No, lol there's always a difference. Culture and race are different. If you cannot fathom that then... there is a problem professor. Culture is a product of a people. Race is a product of nature and evolution.
Ah yes, the favorite argument of the clueless
Yeah, again "lolwut Tamriel is a planet.. WHOOPS".. let's continue
that fail to acknowledge that this is nothing more than a reflection of the developers lengths to allow the player to choose race without affecting the ability to explore all quests and lean on it as crutch to ignore everything else the game presents to you and simply pretend that immersion shattering contradictions are preferable to creative roleplay explanations as to why your character is able to do the things they do.
You sure have strong lungs(?). Let's go ahead.
Thanks for illustrating and admitting that your playstyle is to simply ignore what the game presents to you. It helps explain why you can pretend that Ulfric isn't at all racist and the segregation of the Dunmer is because he doesn't trust these "strangers" that have been living and participating in Windhelm society for almost two centuries. :rolleyes:

You're welcome...? I wasn't just mocking the scenario or anything; maybe the incomplete writing on the part of the writers (since that is an oversight) bothered me. I'm sorry you wasted a paragraph (and a hell of a run-on sentence) on that.

However, I'm not "pretending" anything. It's a video game, but I find there is a much greater chance the Stormcloaks are a bunch of xenophobes than racists. That includes Ulfric. Xenophobia, in case you didn't think this was possible, can continually persist and be passed through generations. I'm glad you're obsessed with some random's playstyle and how they choose to play the game for their own enjoyment. God forbid that type of person exists; a person with a different opinion and formulated view of everything gathered from their own unique experience with the game. THE NERVE.
 

FullmetalHeart20

Well-Known Member
I'm sick of this.
Racism
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Xenophobia
1. an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.

The Dunmer have lived in Windhelm longer than most human lifetimes, and are neither foreign or strange. Now could the delusional hypocrites please shut up?
 

Captain Nagisus

Jake the Dog!
lol...my bad....it's like this: The Thalmor, of the Aldermi Dominion, are too powerful for the Empire to defeat, which is why they signed the treaty. The Stormcloaks, while formidable, simply do not have the manpower or resources to beat the Empire outright. So what I'm saying is that since the Stormcloaks can't decidedly beat the Empire, they would stand no chance against the Thalmor. So a Stormcloak win would actually improve things for the Thalmor, as they could easily defeat what remained of the Stormcloaks, and then they are unhindered in a takeover of Skyrim.

As it stands currently, the Empire's treaty with the Dominion is the only thing keeping the high elves from simply coming in and taking over Skyrim by force.

But there's a big hole in your theory. If the Stormcloaks couldn't beat the Empire in the first place, how would they come to rule Skyrim? You're saying that, if the Stormcloaks were to win against the Empire, the Thalmor would easily defeat them, but if you're saying the Stormcloaks couldn't win against the Empire then...

Sorry, it's just. ULTIMATE MINDfluff.
 

Captain Nagisus

Jake the Dog!
Lolwut? Tamriel is a planet.

Tamriel isn't a planet. Nirn is the planet, with Masser (the big red one) and Secunda (the little white one) as its moons. There are other continents, though none have appeared in-game. They're in the lore, such as Pyandonea, Aldmer (some people say Aldmer has disappeared until something happens, such as the extinction of mankind) and Akavir. Probably more, but those three are the ones that spring to mind.
 

Cylos

The Last Dragonborn
I always seem to see Nationalism as the pathway to some variety of xenophobia. I don't see Ulfric as a total racist in comparison with some others in Skyrim. Ulfric does say to Galmar in 'Palace of the Kings', by the way I am paraphrasing here I can't remember the exact quote 'I returned home, to find nothing but foreigners and strangers' the way it is said shows he has some form of disdain for those he is unfamiliar with, be that racism I don't know. He comes across as racist to me, but I was always biased against Nationalists.
 

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