Sexual violence redux

[Docta Corvina]

Historically, you are correct, yet for this decade? Look at how long that was on the media for its racial charges by a white attacking a black person! Your saying this happens basically on a weekly basis then, why isn't the media constantly showing this to us? I mean, this one idiot, Zimmerman, does do something really stupid, and the media have a field day, the way you talk Black people everywhere are being shot at by Zimmermans.

I would assume that this case was one that flew under the radar as well for most people. For many, the only reason why this story was even heard about was the comparison to Trayvon Martin.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...man-after-dispute-over-loud-music-police-say/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/30/jordan-davis-teen-loud-music-trayvon-martin_n_2217444.html

The point is that Martin's case and the overall situation surrounding it is not at all a "one-off". Just because one doesn't hear about it in the news does not mean that it is not happening. There are plenty of horrific and deeply troubling things that occur in society that don't get spotlight or are under-reported for all sorts of reasons. It's one reason why so many African-Americans (and other racial minorities) in an inner city situation sometimes bear such deep-seated unease about the police force. It's been a point of conflict and confrontation for them, rather than a logical avenue of seeking help in dealing with the community violence.

I'm not Mother Time (yet), but in my years I have had my own experiences with racist attitudes in this country. Especially being the daughter of an interracial couple. Naturally, I bristle a bit when I hear racism being treated like it's yesteryear's issue. I can't tell you how many times we all got withering glances and glares from people who saw my parents, then looked at my sister and I, and almost looked like we'd shot their dog. There are parts of the state in which I live currently that my parents, upon moving here, were informed very gravely never to visit - because of racist and very insular attitudes. Family members of mine have been threatened because of their race before. I've heard the comments with my own ears even sitting in a fast food restaurant. And this is all even on an interpersonal basis. The stats Stephen posted a while back should not be dismissed because one doesn't find any way to account for them simply because the Jim Crow era is over. Institutionalized racism is very real and relevant. It's not a myth whipped up by racial minorities. In a perfect world, educational opportunities would be truly equal-access and equal quality, as would job opportunities and the mutual expectation of success and excellence - not of the opposite. And that would go incredibly far in combating the problems and stark realities facing, for example, inner city youth and their families.

I'm not at all saying, mind you, that white people are collectively to blame for everything wrong in the life of a racial minority. But the facts require us to confront a reality - an uglier reality than we may want to acknowledge because it calls attention to the fact that America, despite all of the ways that it excels, still possesses very real flaws. And those are revealed in the attitudes and practices of those not only on the ground, but those behind the curtains of power in many venues.

It's going to take a collective effort to combat such problems, much like the issue of sexual violence against all genders and age groups. It's not enough to say or even think to ourselves, "this isn't a problem because it's not legal - we have a justice system to sort this out". Statistics, news stories, and personal anecdotes prove that it absolutely is.

 

[Medea]

I really don't know what you're saying here. You're suggesting that we need to make sure the fringe who lack knowledge are prevented from taking power from the majority who have it? Could you explain in a bit more detail, with examples perhaps?

I have no idea what I was saying either. I was pretty smashed when I quoted your post, so...... yeah.

 

[Darkholme]

In a recent thread that discussed victim blaming, offensive protesting, and the role of men in combating sexual violence, some women were enraged by the idea that they might need male assistance in confronting issues of violence against physically more vulnerable people.

I asserted, in a very blunt and exaggerated way, that the proper response to a man with a sign that told women they deserved to be raped was a fist in the face. Most people disagreed, sometimes vehemently so. I'm not generally an advocate of violence, so I get that response. On the other hand, I do not believe that ignoring such protests or ignoring any such speech in daily life is at all a useful response. I don't think I communicated that very adroitly, to say the least. But this video does a good job of it. It's a 19 minute long TED talk, but worth watching.

"In the end, what will hurt the most is not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." -- Martin Luther King

The point I was making in the other thread, and I speak only for myself, was that ALL violence is bad and responding to words with violence was unacceptable. I don't believe violence solves a problem, at least not without creating several other problems.

Your video was interesting though. It was a pretty good explanation of the need to get away from victim blaming. The point to all of this is that we need to stop coming up with ways for people to "be safer" and start preventing those who are violent. Treat people like equal human beings and no one needs to dress modestly to be safe.

This issue extends to men as well. People DO laugh off sexist, racist, homophobic comments all the time. As individuals, we should at least voice our disagreement with these moronic remarks. A small step we could take in the direction of a better world.

 

[Anouck]

The point I was making in the other thread, and I speak only for myself, was that ALL violence is bad and responding to words with violence was unacceptable. I don't believe violence solves a problem, at least not without creating several other problems.

I always try to solve problems verbal. I think talking to people is the best answer and certainly more effective than violence. But not everyone is willing to talk. In my neighborhood there are a lot of gangs and the only way to save your butt is by demanding respect. Sadly, demanding respect comes with violence sometimes.
Please don't get me wrong: I never fight and I'm not a violent person. But gang members don't want to talk to you. If they offend you and you ignore it you've shown weakness. And showing weakness will get you in trouble. Fighting is, sadly, the only way to prevent violence here.

 

[Darkholme]

I always try to solve problems verbal. I think talking to people is the best answer and certainly more effective than violence. But not everyone is willing to talk. In my neighborhood there are a lot of gangs and the only way to save your butt is by demanding respect. Sadly, demanding respect comes with violence sometimes.
Please don't get me wrong: I never fight and I'm not a violent person. But gang members don't want to talk to you. If they offend you and you ignore it you've shown weakness. And showing weakness will get you in trouble. Fighting is, sadly, the only way to prevent violence here.

I get what you're saying, and would never begrudge anyone who turns to violence in a dangerous situation. To protect yourself or your loved ones; I wouldn't tell someone it was wrong to resort to violence then. I'm talking about someone insulting you, insulting your beliefs, etc. Basically answering words with violence.

I went to college in a pretty dangerous town myself. I kept my head down and I didn't instigate with people. Got through my years without incident. I will qualify that with the facts that I'm short, small, and a girl. So no one was going to be seen as tough for kicking the poo out of me. Everyone has to act within their means and given the situations they are confronted with. Just be safe in that dangerous neighborhood!

 

[Stephen Daidalus]

We're back on to a discussion about violence itself, so why not examine that.

Is violence strictly physical? Does it always result in some sort of visible injury?

Can coercion be violence? Can imprisonment be violence? Can economic exploitation be violence? Can cyberbullying someone until they commit suicide be violence?

I think any act that intentionally injures another person, either emotionally or physically, is violence. Making a moral distinction between a punch in the face and a coercive threat that inflicts emotional harm simplifies things, but I don't believe it solves any problems.

The other question is, does walking away from bullies actually work? This is what we counsel kids to do, yet they're suffering an epidemic of it.

It may seem that I'm going off on a tangent, but this thread references the previous one in which we discussed a man standing on a campus with a sign telling women that they deserved to be raped, and I think that is a pernicious form of bullying which tries to justify itself behind the screen of free expression. It's no different in my mind from telling Amanda Todd that, in your opinion, girls who expose their breasts to strangers on the internet are sluts who deserve to die. We condemn both forms of expression without being quite willing to outlaw them. But is that really working?

I think Anouck makes a good point. The gangs in her neighborhood are exhibiting classic bullying behavior, which time and time again we see cannot be thwarted by simply ignoring it. Does fighting your bully -- even just once -- work better? In my personal experience, it does. So I'm not sure I'm ready for a categorical denial of one form of violence as a coping method when we're happy to permit all the other forms of it.

 

[OrexxerO]

Is violence strictly physical? Does it always result in some sort of visible injury?

What you ask you sorta answered but anyways. In my opinion at least of course its not only physical. A woman getting Raped isn't just the physical act, if anything the worse part I would think is the months and years of mental anguish that that physical event caused that woman. Or a person molested at a young age, that scars them in a violent way emotionally, which is universally more damaging then a simple physical injury alone. Isn't that the root of the complaint about "torture" in places by the U.S. government? The kind of torture that is complained about is of a mental type for the most part, not a physical one. Most of it at least.


While fighting back against all bullies probably won't work, I do remember being harassed by multiple people in Junior High that one day, I had finally had enough and lashed out at them. They were pretty surprised and for the most part left me alone after that.

 

[Stephen Daidalus]

What you ask you sorta answered but anyways. In my opinion at least of course its not only physical. A woman getting Raped isn't just the physical act, if anything the worse part I would think is the months and years of mental anguish that that physical event caused that woman. Or a person molested at a young age, that scars them in a violent way emotionally, which is universally more damaging then a simple physical injury alone. Isn't that the root of the complaint about "torture" in places by the U.S. government? The kind of torture that is complained about is of a mental type for the most part, not a physical one. Most of it at least.

This is very true.

While fighting back against all bullies probably won't work, I do remember being harassed by multiple people in Junior High that one day, I had finally had enough and lashed out at them. They were pretty surprised and for the most part left me alone after that.

This is, more or less, my experience, and I hear this kind of story again and again.

I hate to sound as though I am blaming the victim -- or putting the onus on the victim to fix the problem -- when I suggest this, but I wonder if -some- victims of bullying wouldn't be better served by boxing lessons rather than interventions that purportedly aim at fixing the bully or empowering bystanders.

 

[Crooksin]

I think it's wishful thinking; teaching youth not to fight fire with fire but rather just walk away from the fire. Rather teach "good morals" than teach them what will actually work.

Most bullies will back down if they are countered with the same physical force they like to dish out, but there are exceptions, some people are just really sadistic that way. Its also unreasonable to think that every victim is capable of dishing out that violence, which is perfectly fine, some people just aren't like that.

I've never had any problems with bullies though, I'll go as far as to admit I wasn't the most polite teenager around other kids. Never in a violent, sadistic way, more in a joking way. Whether it was taken as that or not, I'm not too sure, but I've matured as I've gone into my 20's. Even as a youngin, I would not stand by if someone was being completely humiliated for absolutely no reason, I just find watching things like that completely pathetic for everyone involved.

I think the solution is to teach youth to stand on their own, rather than depend on other people. It is why I am glad my parents weren't particular "soft" on me growing up. I also think bullying will never go away, will never be solved, only dealt with. Its human nature, however certainly sad to see some things happen and good people get demoralized over something so petty.

 

[Anouck]

I think it's wishful thinking; teaching youth not to fight fire with fire but rather just walk away from the fire. Rather teach "good morals" than teach them what will actually work.

I hate to sound as though I am blaming the victim -- or putting the onus on the victim to fix the problem -- when I suggest this, but I wonder if -some- victims of bullying wouldn't be better served by boxing lessons rather than interventions that purportedly aim at fixing the bully or empowering bystanders.

My personal experience is that violence can be the only answer to bullying. Why? Because bullying is primitive. If bullies would be capable to understand (or care) what they are putting you through they wouldn't do it. I honestly don't think talking works. And telling parents or teachers only makes it worse.
I've read a book about bullying and apparently it is a matter of natural selection. People form packs like animals do and the outsider is considered "weak" and gets "eliminated". I know it sounds respectless but it is that easy (according to some theories). And the only way in nature to prevent from being dominated is being even more dominant.

No, it's not the perfect solution and I rather have a good conversation with people. But that's not always possible. And I will never be a victim...

 

[Uther Pundragon]

It has long been taught in family to never seek out or start violence in any way but to not also run from it when it finds you. Get get pushed, you push back. You get knocked down, you get back up. Bitching and whining about it doesn't do any good. Sometimes bullies and such just need a good kick in the face.

 

[Dagmar]

Sometimes bullies and such just need a good kick in the face.

Boot to the head?