Reading the White-Gold Concordat, I think Ulfric is right

[DrunkenMage]

I think the fact that the Mede's have shown little to no sign of great leadership has been obvious so far, but that's not up for debate. But he needed the treaty to keep the Empire alive and most importantly keep his throne.

The Mede Dynasty have shown no sign of great leadership? I don't believe you know all that much about the Mede dynasty if you consider their leadership weak and not up for debate. Especially since Skyrim itself endorsed Titus Mede as Emperor.

After seven long, bloody years the Stormcrown Interregnum was ended when a Colovian warlord by the name of Titus Mede seized the crown. Whether he had rightful claim or not is moot. Without Titus Mede, there would not be an Empire today. He proved a shrewd and capable leader, such that Skyrim endorsed him as Emperor. - Rising Threat, VOL IV

Titus Mede II's actions during the Great War showed great leadership and strategy with his battle tactics during the Battle of the Red Ring have become a model for future strategists.

The Empire as a whole agreed to the White-Gold Concordat, Skyrim & High Rock agreed. Cyrodiil agreed and Hammerfell rejected and was removed from the Empire.

Had Titus Mede II cared about his throne so much, he would of accepted the ultimatum in 4E 171 or when the Thalmor offered peace when they had taken the Imperial City.

During the winter of 4E 174-175, the Thalmor seem to have believed that the war in Cyrodiil was all but over. They made several attempts to negotiate with Titus II. - The Great War

To clear some things up for people. The Elder Council handle treaties, legislation and law. The Emperor only maintains the power of Veto in Imperial politics.

 

[CaptMorgan72]

The Empire didn't help Hammerfell because it would have violated the treaty. Hammerfell fought the Aldmeri to a standstill, granted the forces of the Aldmeri were weakened from the war with the Empire, but they fought so well that the Aldmeri had to withdraw from Hammerfell. It is in the Empire's best interest for Ulfric to become High King of Skyrim and withdraw from the Empire. The fact that they oppose this, is proof that the Empire has become corrupted or infiltrated by the Aldmeri. Think about it, if Skyrim became independent then whatever they do is not the responsibility of the Empire. Ulfric's best move would be to unite with Hammerfell and march into Summerset Isles and lay waste to the Aldmeri. They could do it without doubt. With a little planning the Empire could help Ulfric defeat the Aldmeri for good. The fact that they tried to kill Ulfric is proof that the Empire needs to be destroyed as well. I have no doubt that Skyrim united with Hammerfell could fight this two front war and win.

Ulfric is the Thalmor's asset and the Civil War is exactly what they want. I would hardly call the Empire infiltrated for maintaining their Empire. The Empire is unwilling to abandon over half the population that wish to remain a part of the Empire.

Hammerfell was devastated after the war, Skyrim will be devastated after the Civil War and require time to rebuild, since most of the resources that were important to it's people came from the Empire... They are going take much longer. Chances are Skyrim under the Stormcloaks will miss the next Great War. The Empire is preparing for war against the Aldmeri Dominion with nearly the entire Imperial Army already sitting on the Dominion's border.

"Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes." - General Tullius

The fact they tried to kill Ulfric just shows that laws in the Empire are the same as they were during Daggerfall. Unless you're saying the Empire during the time of the Septim Emperors should have been destroyed also. Ulfric was facing execution for High Treason.

Any act against (whether directly or indirectly, or any nonaction which results in circumstances, directly or indirectly, against) a allegiated sovereign or by a vassal to a liege, resulting (or what a reasonable person would assume would result) in physical, emotional, mental, or magical harm or injury in said sovereign or liege. The punishment for this crime will be death. - Legal Basics, Daggerfall


The White-Gold Concordat was for one purpose, to allow the Empire to regain it's strength to fight again. It isn't a lasting peace, both the Aldmeri Dominion and Empire are preparing for another round of warfare.

Hey, don't confuse me with the facts. You make a lot of good points. This is why I love discussing this story with fellow players and fans. I think it is easy to get caught up in the passion that Ulfric has for his country and kinsmen. Outwardly it really seems like the Empire has become submissive to the Thalmor and abandoned the old ways to appease the Aldmeri. But that is all part of the Empire's plan to give them the time they need for The Great War 2. Skyrim being a part of the Empire is essential for the Empire to have any real chance in beating the Aldmeri in the next great war. Hammerfell's pride got the better of them and they couldn't bide their time and wait it out like the Empire is doing. In the end they fought well but was basically destroyed in the process, a fate that Skyrim will probably share if they win the civil war. I guess the Emperor knows what he is doing after all.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

The Mede Dynasty have shown no sign of great leadership? I don't believe you know all that much about the Mede dynasty if you consider their leadership weak and not up for debate. Especially since Skyrim itself endorsed Titus Mede as Emperor.

After seven long, bloody years the Stormcrown Interregnum was ended when a Colovian warlord by the name of Titus Mede seized the crown. Whether he had rightful claim or not is moot. Without Titus Mede, there would not be an Empire today. He proved a shrewd and capable leader, such that Skyrim endorsed him as Emperor. - Rising Threat, VOL IV

Titus Mede II's actions during the Great War showed great leadership and strategy with his battle tactics during the Battle of the Red Ring have become a model for future strategists.

The Empire as a whole agreed to the White-Gold Concordat, Skyrim & High Rock agreed. Cyrodiil agreed and Hammerfell rejected and was removed from the Empire.

Had Titus Mede II cared about his throne so much, he would of accepted the ultimatum in 4E 171 or when the Thalmor offered peace when they had taken the Imperial City.

During the winter of 4E 174-175, the Thalmor seem to have believed that the war in Cyrodiil was all but over. They made several attempts to negotiate with Titus II. - The Great War

To clear some things up for people. The Elder Council handle treaties, legislation and law. The Emperor only maintains the power of Veto in Imperial politics.

I suppose I'm still a little wary and wonder if there hadn't been someone else who might have had better leadership qualities.
However, while his tactic at the Battle of Red Ring might have been pretty clever, it wasn't necessary to even let it come so far in my opinion. After all, the Dominion went for the Capital of Cyrodiil because they met little to no resistance when taking some of their territory.
Plus, if he had taken the first treaty offered to him, he would have lost his throne to Civil War, no matter how the Generals might have wanted him to accept it. I'm still surprised that such an aggressive action like spilling a few hundred heads in front of you doesn't trigger at least some suspicion to get some troops placed along their border.

The Mede's might not be the worst or best Emperor(s), but naive in my opinion.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I suppose I'm still a little wary and wonder if there hadn't been someone else who might have had better leadership qualities.
However, while his tactic at the Battle of Red Ring might have been pretty clever, it wasn't necessary to even let it come so far in my opinion. After all, the Dominion went for the Capital of Cyrodiil because they met little to no resistance when taking some of their territory.
Plus, if he had taken the first treaty offered to him, he would have lost his throne to Civil War, no matter how the Generals might have wanted him to accept it. I'm still surprised that such an aggressive action like spilling a few hundred heads in front of you doesn't trigger at least some suspicion to get some troops placed along their border.

The Mede's might not be the worst or best Emperor(s), but naive in my opinion.

The Imperial Legions are spread across the provinces, the Aldmeri Dominion had their entire army in hidden camps within Elsweyr, flanking the Valenwood Imperial defenses, taking the Empire by surprise. No one had seen the Great War coming, the Aldmeri Dominion launched their attack within days of their ultimatum rejection.

The Thalmor ambassador upended the cart, spilling over a hundred heads on the floor: every Blades agent in Summerset and Valenwood. And so began the Great War which would consume the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion for the next five years.
Within days, Aldmeri armies invaded Hammerfell and Cyrodiil simultaneously. A strong force commanded by the Thalmor general Lord Naarifin attacked Cyrodiil from the south, marching out of hidden camps in northern Elsweyr and flanking the Imperial defenses along the Valenwood border. Leyawiin soon fell to the invaders, while Bravil was cut off and besieged.

It wasn't necessary for it to even let it come so far? The Empire was taken by surprise on two fronts, Cyrodiil and Hammerfell. You also have to remember the Aldmeri Dominion had seventy years of planning, the Empire was given less than a week. Then the Thalmor made it their goal for the destruction of the Empire and the conquest of Cyrodiil.

It took years of warfare for it to get that far, it isn't like the Battle of the Red Ring happened within a day of the invasion. There was tough Imperial resistance while the Legions are attempting to mobilize their forces, naval battles and fierce fighting against the Cyrodiil and Skyrim Legions. The Thalmor leadership threw everything available it had into Cyrodiil, what the Empire had was spread between three provinces.

In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all...

Tactically Titus Mede II did extremely well with what he had, the Empire had everything stacked against it from the get go. Titus Mede II chose peace because he knew it would be suicide to attack the Dominion with the remaining Imperial Army. There were barely enough soldiers to maintain order in the years after the war. The Aldmeri Dominion didn't need to invade Cyrodiil, they could simply take pot shots and border skirmishes for many years. Something like they did during the Second Empire I believe.

Live to fight another day. If a person is weak because they decided that a suicide death march isn't the way to go. Then I sure hope many forum members never join the Military as Officers.

Titus Mede II is certainly a great Emperor, very few Emperors can claim they leaded an attack and personally captured enemy leaders. I can only recall Emperor Tiber Septim doing something like that in the Battle of Sancre Tor, when he was still General Talos.

 

[Riven326]

Ulfric has his heart in the right place and I don't think he desires power just to have it; he wants to use it to save his people.

The Empire has completely failed in it's duty to protect it's citizens from a rival foreign power, and thus, has lost all credibility. Ulfric tells you this when you meet him and I believe he's right. Try to imagine if the country you live in now decided to submit to a foreign ruler and it's demands. Would that not make you feel inclined to (at the very least) doubt your government and the people who were elected to represent you?

 

[CaptMorgan72]

Ulfric has his heart in the right place and I don't think he desires power just to have it; he wants to use it to save his people.

The Empire has completely failed in it's duty to protect it's citizens from a rival foreign power, and thus, has lost all credibility. Ulfric tells you this when you meet him and I believe he's right. Try to imagine if the country you live in now decided to submit to a foreign ruler and it's demands. Would that not make you feel inclined to (at the very least) doubt your government and the people who were elected to represent you?

I agree, Ulfric does have his heart in the right place, but he is thinking like a warrior not a king. He is being short sighted and not seeing the larger picture. Titus Mede II is a true leader. He led the soldiers under his command to incredible victories overcoming impossible odds. Capturing Thalmor military leaders and preventing the annihilation of the Empire and the people in it. He made an executive decision that not only saved the Empire but will give it time to prepare for the second great war by signing the White Gold Concordat. He put aside his pride and looked at the bigger picture. He did this because he is a leader and not just a soldier. I believe that Ulfric himself admits that he was being short sighted when you speak to him in Sovngarde, if you killed him.

 

[Dagmar]

I was reading up on the treaty and learned the history behind Hammerfell and their fight against the Aldmeri without help from the Empire. The Empire abandoned Hammerfell because of their refusal to give up so much territory to the Aldmeri. Hammerfell fought the Aldmeri to a standstill.

The title to the thread is a bit misleading as you can't read the actual White-Gold Concordat. It's also a bit of a mischaracterization to say that the Empire abandoned Hammerfell. It takes two to tango and the Redguards refused to accept the authority of the Emperor and the Elder Council by refusing to abide by the terms of the White-Gold Concordat. One could argue that they abandoned the Empire first in doing so. Contrast this with Skyrim which showed loyalty to the Empire by accepting the terms unfavorable to it in the same treaty.

The White-Gold Concordat still left the Redguards with control of most of Hammerfell. The Empire basically only ceded territory that the Aldmeri Dominion already de facto had. Based on the fact that they were driven out of Hegathe and the surrounding area, and driven across the Alik'r Desert from Skaven the ceded territory in southern Hammerfell probably looked something like this:

When negotiating a treaty where there's currently no decisive victor it's entirely reasonable for a side to require that the territory they already controlled stay under their control. Historical examples are the establishment of East Germany and West Germany after World War II and the continued existence of South Korea and North Korea today and yet historians don't characterize the division of these nations as a betrayal or abandonment.

I can easily see Ulfric leading Skyrim to an alliance with Hammerfell and the Nords and Redguards defeating the Aldmeri and then dismantling the Empire.

Your perception doesn't comport well with the reality of the Elder Scrolls universe. Outside of the Empire the two provinces have historically been at odds with one another. Even while part of the Empire, Skyrim waged the War of Bend'r-mahk with Hammerfell, invading it and taking control of portions of northern Hammerfell. In the War of the Red Diamond they were on opposing sides. During the Alliance Wars they were also on opposing sides.

We have no idea what the current state of political affairs is in Hammerfell. We only know that it has a peace treaty with the Aldmeri Dominion. The notion that they would abandon it to embrace a cause that's not it's own (Skyrim's right to worship Talos) is nothing more than wishful thinking, particularly in light of the fact that Skyrim was complicit in any "abandonment" of the Redguards 26 years ago. It could have taken a joint stance with the Redguards in 4E 175 but it decided that the loss of territory for the Redguards was acceptable.

If someone who historically has screwed me over at every turn and threw me under the bus when I could have used their help a quarter of a century ago asked me to abandon my self-interest preserved through hard fought for favorable peace treaty to take up their cause I would probably kick them in the family jewels before punching them in the face and sending them off on their merry way.

 

[Dagmar]

...the only argument i ever hear with any credibility on the side of those who disagree is the "Bear of Markarth" book which proves nothing if u consider the source of the author..

The book establishes a historical event. The author is a scholar and a historian. He has no implied agenda and there is literally not a single sliver of game content that conflicts or otherwise suggests that the lore text is anything but a historical accounting of events. All arguments to the contrary have been based on ignorance and deficits in reading comprehension skills influenced by transparent bias of the players who have put such failed arguments forward. It's canon regardless of whether Ulfric sycophants like it or not.

 

[CaptMorgan72]

Dagmar, I have since changed my thinking on my thread you responded to. I'm getting quite the Elder Scroll education from you guys and I'm loving it.

 

[Majir-Dar]

The way I see it, Titus Mede didn't realize that no matter what, the Thalmor mustn't be given the opportunity to get footing on the mainland, not to mention land populated largely by humans.
I think the fact that the Mede's have shown little to no sign of great leadership has been obvious so far, but that's not up for debate. But he needed the treaty to keep the Empire alive and most importantly keep his throne. If there was no treaty, the Empire would have been crushed. After all it took Hammerfell 5 years to fight them to a standstill; not a defeat.
We don't have any sources about how Alinor went on after the Great War, but the way I see it they've been using the time to regain new resources for warfare and of course raise their numbers as good as possible (if you read the letter of Elenwen to Sanyon, a Thalmor laying dead at the Shrine of Talos near Lakeview Manor/east of the lake near Falkreath, she says that her men are "spread thin enough"; guess the Dominion wants to keep their soldiers at home for a reason?). That theory is only supported by one of the Jarls at Diplomatic Immunity saying that he heard rumors that the Thalmor are gathering their strength to launch another attack.

Should Skyrim become independent, the Empire looses the source of some of its best soldiers, and High Rock will be cut off Cyrodiil, making communication difficult. I don't want to defend this damned concordat or anything it represents, but if the people of Skyrim don't stay put, and Cyrodiil is taken by the Dominion, things are going to get bad real quick. And real bad.
Corrupted politicians can easily be killed, but if the Empire falls, I don't see who's going to keep the Altmer from erasing humanity of Nirn's surface.

Another theory of course could be that the Dominion is struggling with inner conflicts themselves, their forces only held up in numbers by forceful recruiting and their populace partly starving themselves because all food and resources goes to the army... but that's up for debate, too. Especially since they are the biggest economic power in Tamriel as well. And as Lathenil wrote, many Altmer embraced the Thalmors' ideology (is that much of a surprise though? Altmer have been known to think of themselves as the perfect race, the perfect society; and thus logically the rightful rulers of Tamriel, no?), so recruitment shouldn't be too tricky. Not to mention all the Altmer that might want revenge for their fallen fathers, friends and so on.

There's just not enough information given to make 100%-true conclusions. Both parties have plenty of grey areas. And while Ulfrics' goal, to see the Thalmor bleeding as much as the people kidnapped into their concentration camps, might be noble and right, we don't know enough about him either.
Plenty of his behavior has shown that while he talks his men into glory-or-death-battle-deaths, his own willpower can't keep up with that. To be honest, I believe that there's a certain amount of fear behind that too. Doesn't want to see his country going down along with Cyrodiil should the Dominion crush the Legion. I really hope he's not one of those rats leaving the sinking ship like my guts tell me.

Remember that the Empire still holds Morrowind, High Rock, Black Marsh, and the Orcs would help too. Do you really think that Hammerfell and Skyrim could fight these provinces off and the Thalmor (Valenwood, Elsweyr, and Summerset Isles)?

Right now, the Empire consists only of Cyrodiil, Skyrim and High Rock. Black Marsh and large parts of Morrowind are under Argonian rule, and what's left of the country to remain being called Morrowind is currently independent, in a way. "Abandoned" would fit better though.
And no, I doubt the Orcs would help. They keep to themselves or simply state that "it's not their fight".

I forgot about Morrowind and Blackmarsh not being in the Empire. You brought some stuff to my attention that I either forgot about or didn't know. I still believe the Empire is best for Skyrim and that Titus Mede is a capable leader but to each their own.

 

[Writes-Many-Posts]

Not only is Yarl Ulfric correct and noble in his actions but he's also the only one with the balls to make a stand against the empire and thalmor, basically he's trying to save his people from being conquered, and the only reason he's at war with the imperial legion is because the cowards are allied with the thalmor. Sure he's done some terrible things but there childs play compared to the bad things the empire has done, the only argument i ever hear with any credibility on the side of those who disagree is the "Bear of Markarth" book which proves nothing if u consider the source of the author, anybody could have wrote that, perhaps even tullius himself wrote it to demonize him. Anyways, this is why even tho i never mess with the civil war quests on this game i highly admire Ulfric for standing up against the thalmor and there imperial coward allies. Yarl Ulfric reminds me of William Wallace in the movie "Braveheart" if you've ever seen it, he just wants freedom for his people, one of my favorite movies. Watch it and you'll see the resemblance of the two, the thalmor are a lot like the English army in that movie.

The Empire has done so many bad things in the name of peace. It's only natural that an age old empire would have collected a few bad rulers and so forth, but I assure you if Yarl Ulfric were High King the other races would be kicked out or killed, or at least segregated. Can you please share with me some of the bad things the Empire has done that they weren't forced to do. They had to sign the White Gold Concordant because they would risk more civilians. Don't make any mistake, however, both sides are gearing up for the 2nd Great War. My only question is this, are they going to fight it alone or will Skyrim and the others put aside their petty disagreements to wipe out the tyranny that is the Thalmor. If Skyrim truly rebelled and took down the Thalmor and the Empire, do you know how much chaos would ensue? Look at Rome, when they fell, the Dark Ages began. There was a whole age where people were ruled by land owners and Churches (not that all the Churches were bad of course). Would you really rather have the Empire fall and a Dark Age occur? The Empire isn't perfect but it's the best chance Tamriel has at a government.

What all bad things has the empire done which they weren't forced? lmao omg i got a chuckle at reading that... but i'm guessing your actually being serious so where do i begin? How bout the very first screen of the game!? Ya know? Where they're attempting to cut your head off for simply "existing" in there land? Jeez man the opening scene even depicts how evil they are!! Yet u guys still insist there these holy good guys, lol I can't really blame u tho cuz your judgement is clouded with all the "b..b..b..b..but ulfric is a racist" fanclub hypocrites who don't even observe the actual story. Ulfric isn't a racist ok, he merely holds harsh bitter feelings towards a "species" not a race who is attempting to conquer and enslave his people, let me ask you a question, how would u feel if one day your country was invaded by an army of vicious beings who sought to change your entire way of life and murder anyone who resisted? Would u not hold just a tiny little bit of discord for that species? Not to mention the traitors who would literally side with them! "imperials" Including the ones who weren't responsible? After all how do u know there not secretly working for them? In times like that it would be extremely hard to trust any of them, hopefully we can at least agree on that? And if so then that contradicts your claim.

b...b...b...b...but... you just parcially converted me...

 

[LotusEater]

I love these threads...

 

[HappyFaceClown]

...the only argument i ever hear with any credibility on the side of those who disagree is the "Bear of Markarth" book which proves nothing if u consider the source of the author..

The book establishes a historical event. The author is a scholar and a historian. He has no implied agenda and there is literally not a single sliver of game content that conflicts or otherwise suggests that the lore text is anything but a historical accounting of events. All arguments to the contrary have been based on ignorance and deficits in reading comprehension skills influenced by transparent bias of the players who have put such failed arguments forward. It's canon regardless of whether Ulfric sycophants like it or not.

And so is the book u read during the "diplomatic immunity" quest where it gives grave detail about Ulfric getting tortured for months on in by thalmor, but yall don't like talking about that huh? lol

 

[ColleenG]

Ulfric's criticisms of the Imperials are not unfounded. However, his motives for war are not altruistic--he seeks power, and is using "the Talos Mistake" as his battle cry. He would not rule benevolently as high king. The people of Hammerfell, and all non-nord races, would suffer the same discrimination as the dark elves of the Gray Quarter. All regimes are corrupt, including Ulfric Stormcloak's. You choose based upon who would do the least harm, and in this case, Ulfric does not get my vote.

 

[DrunkenMage]

...the only argument i ever hear with any credibility on the side of those who disagree is the "Bear of Markarth" book which proves nothing if u consider the source of the author..

The book establishes a historical event. The author is a scholar and a historian. He has no implied agenda and there is literally not a single sliver of game content that conflicts or otherwise suggests that the lore text is anything but a historical accounting of events. All arguments to the contrary have been based on ignorance and deficits in reading comprehension skills influenced by transparent bias of the players who have put such failed arguments forward. It's canon regardless of whether Ulfric sycophants like it or not.

And so is the book u read during the "diplomatic immunity" quest where it gives grave detail about Ulfric getting tortured for months on in by thalmor, but yall don't like talking about that huh? lol

You mean the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak? We always talk about that, especially the parts that say Ulfric is a Thalmor asset and the Thalmor are providing indirect aid to the Stormcloaks.

 

[Crooksin]

Not only is Yarl Ulfric correct and noble in his actions but he's also the only one with the balls to make a stand against the empire and thalmor, basically he's trying to save his people from being conquered, and the only reason he's at war with the imperial legion is because the cowards are allied with the thalmor.

Its either get conquered by the Empire or the Thalmor, its either or. Stormcloaks can barely keep the Empire (an already weakened one at that) at bay, what logic would allow them to keep 2 armies out of their land? I understand the cause, and to extent I support it, but at some point you just gotta swallow your pride because you know what they say, the enemy of my enemy is my friend (at least for now)

Sure he's done some terrible things but there childs play compared to the bad things the empire has done, the only argument i ever hear with any credibility on the side of those who disagree is the "Bear of Markarth" book which proves nothing if u consider the source of the author, anybody could have wrote that, perhaps even tullius himself wrote it to demonize him.

We could say that about every single book in the game, so because of that you can either leave it out of an argument or go solely on what is presented to us from the game. There is nothing else in the game to refute what the author wrote and you would think it would be taken advantage of as that would be an interesting story plot if Bethesda had intended it to be false.

Anyways, this is why even tho i never mess with the civil war quests on this game i highly admire Ulfric for standing up against the thalmor and there imperial coward allies. Yarl Ulfric reminds me of William Wallace in the movie "Braveheart" if you've ever seen it, he just wants freedom for his people, one of my favorite movies. Watch it and you'll see the resemblance of the two, the thalmor are a lot like the English army in that movie.

I agree the civil war quests sucks, it really does. The Empire isn't allied with the Thalmor though, I don't think you understand the definition of a treaty.

In what possible way is Ulfric in anyway similiar to William Wallace lmao?

1. William Wallace stepped up to defend Scotland from a straight up invasion (Skyrim has been part of the Empire for years, Stormcloaks is a relatively new thing)

2. William Wallace was fighting one enemy, not two.

3. If Scotland was English territory already and they were forced to sign a peace treaty banning Christianity by, lets say, Norway, AND THEN William Wallace decided to rebel ... well then ya it could be somewhat similiar. That's just one completely made up way that it could be similiar though, so you can understand.

Unless of course you just mean they are similiar because of the battle scenes .... well thats just typical Stormcloak ignorant thinking

 

[HappyFaceClown]

Not only is Yarl Ulfric correct and noble in his actions but he's also the only one with the balls to make a stand against the empire and thalmor, basically he's trying to save his people from being conquered, and the only reason he's at war with the imperial legion is because the cowards are allied with the thalmor.

Its either get conquered by the Empire or the Thalmor, its either or. Stormcloaks can barely keep the Empire (an already weakened one at that) at bay, what logic would allow them to keep 2 armies out of their land? I understand the cause, and to extent I support it, but at some point you just gotta swallow your pride because you know what they say, the enemy of my enemy is my friend (at least for now)

Sure he's done some terrible things but there childs play compared to the bad things the empire has done, the only argument i ever hear with any credibility on the side of those who disagree is the "Bear of Markarth" book which proves nothing if u consider the source of the author, anybody could have wrote that, perhaps even tullius himself wrote it to demonize him.

We could say that about every single book in the game, so because of that you can either leave it out of an argument or go solely on what is presented to us from the game. There is nothing else in the game to refute what the author wrote and you would think it would be taken advantage of as that would be an interesting story plot if Bethesda had intended it to be false.

Anyways, this is why even tho i never mess with the civil war quests on this game i highly admire Ulfric for standing up against the thalmor and there imperial coward allies. Yarl Ulfric reminds me of William Wallace in the movie "Braveheart" if you've ever seen it, he just wants freedom for his people, one of my favorite movies. Watch it and you'll see the resemblance of the two, the thalmor are a lot like the English army in that movie.

I agree the civil war quests sucks, it really does. The Empire isn't allied with the Thalmor though, I don't think you understand the definition of a treaty.

In what possible way is Ulfric in anyway similiar to William Wallace lmao?

1. William Wallace stepped up to defend Scotland from a straight up invasion (Skyrim has been part of the Empire for years, Stormcloaks is a relatively new thing)

2. William Wallace was fighting one enemy, not two.

3. If Scotland was English territory already and they were forced to sign a peace treaty banning Christianity by, lets say, Norway, AND THEN William Wallace decided to rebel ... well then ya it could be somewhat similiar. That's just one completely made up way that it could be similiar though, so you can understand.

Unless of course you just mean they are similiar because of the battle scenes .... well thats just typical Stormcloak ignorant thinking

1. Ulfric Stromcloak stepped up to defend his people from a strait up invasion from the thalmor.
2. Ulfric Stormcloak is fighting "one" enemy, the only reason he's also fighting the imperials is cuz the cowards are allied with the enemy he's fighting.
3. The imperial legion has banned talos worship "the equivalent of christianity in real life" because the thalmor want none of it, one of the "main" reasons Ulfric is at war with them in the first place.
4. Do you even proof read this bullplops before u post it? lmao
Anyways, yea. Sounds a LOT like William Wallace to me. -_-

 

[HappyFaceClown]

The book establishes a historical event. The author is a scholar and a historian. He has no implied agenda and there is literally not a single sliver of game content that conflicts or otherwise suggests that the lore text is anything but a historical accounting of events. All arguments to the contrary have been based on ignorance and deficits in reading comprehension skills influenced by transparent bias of the players who have put such failed arguments forward. It's canon regardless of whether Ulfric sycophants like it or not.

And so is the book u read during the "diplomatic immunity" quest where it gives grave detail about Ulfric getting tortured for months on in by thalmor, but yall don't like talking about that huh? lol

You mean the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak? We always talk about that, especially the parts that say Ulfric is a Thalmor asset and the Thalmor are providing indirect aid to the Stormcloaks.

 

[Dagmar]

And so is the book u read during the "diplomatic immunity" quest where it gives grave detail about Ulfric getting tortured for months on in by thalmor, but yall don't like talking about that huh? lol

Question 1: How did Ulfric become Jarl?

Lol, you never simply asked him? I guess you really hated him.

Ulfric inherited his throne. His father, known to us only as the Bear of Eastmarch, was the Jarl of Eastmarch.

Dagmar: How did you become Jarl of Eastmarch?

Ulfric Stormcloak: My father, the great Bear of Eastmarch, died during my imprisonment after the Markarth Incident. I, his only son, forced to deliver his eulogy via a letter I had smuggled out of prison. Such is the love of Titus Mede for his subjects. When finally set free, I returned to Windhelm, and was greeted by a city in mourning, at one with my own grief and anger. Clamoring in angry voices, calling out for justice, for war, they sat me on the throne. The throne of Ysgramor! The throne of my father... I only hope I can prove worthy of the honor.

Even if you don't want to talk to him there is always the Thalmor Dossier on him:

Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War against the Empire, when he was take as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm)....

...Ulfric was captured by Aldmeri Dominion soldiers during the siege of the Imperial City. Elenwen was assigned as his interrogator but there's nothing in the lore that indicates he ever revealed any vital information to the Thalmor. The only lore resource that I know of for his interrogation is the Thalmor Dossier on him which clearly states that he was deceived into believing that information he provided to them was vital to the capture of the Imperial City. It also clearly indicates that regardless of whether the information he provided would have been useful for the same, it had absolutely no impact on the war as the Imperial City had already fallen by the time he had broken under interrogation, and there's no way that Ulfric could have been privy to any of the Imperial Legion war plans or strategy afterwards.

...The man was tortured by the Thalmor for an indeterminate amount of time. He can't contain himself when he sees Elenwen at High Hrothgar. Ulfric literally loses all composure and is willing to accept her leaving the meeting as a concession in the negotiations. Any attempt to openly approach someone so scarred by his experiences with the Thalmor would have been imprudent on the part of the Thalmor and when it comes to espionage, the Thalmor are the polar opposite of imprudent...

...Uflric was captured and interrogated by the Thalmor during the Great War. While we can assume that he was tortured as part of the interrogation, there's nothing in the Thalmor Dossier on him that details the level of torture used, and it's implied in the same dossier that they intentionally let him go for future use as an asset which doesn't really support the idea that they would have tortured him to the point of death.

 

[Crooksin]

1. Ulfric Stromcloak stepped up to defend his people from a strait up invasion from the thalmor.

No he didn't, lol, he stepped up because they wanted an outright ban on Talos. He did it strictly on principle as well because the Empire very, very, loosely enforced it.

2. Ulfric Stormcloak is fighting "one" enemy, the only reason he's also fighting the imperials is cuz the cowards are allied with the enemy he's fighting.

1+1 = 2. Again, the Empire isn't allied with the Thalmor. Empire is a complete separate entity than the Thalmor. It's been said by Empire characters that The Thalmor are certainly not friends, the treaty is only means to an end.

3. The imperial legion has banned talos worship "the equivalent of christianity in real life" because the thalmor want none of it, one of the "main" reasons Ulfric is at war with them in the first place.

They haven't banned it, they enforce a ban. However, the results being the same they loosely enforce it. Ulfric has put Skyrim and its people in a very, very vulnerable position because of the Talos ban. It becomes clear he's starting his Stormcloak crusade for more than the Talos' ban, however.

4. Do you even proof read this bullpl*** before u post it? lmao

From your petty and childish insults to the spelling of Jarl like Yarl, I could ask you the same thing.

Anyways, yea. Sounds a LOT like William Wallace to me. -_-

Go and watch that movie again, better yet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wallace

Go for gold.