Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Mr.Self Destruct]

Markarth was never declared to be a legitimately independent kingdom.

If it's operating outside of Imperial laws and conduct it is not recognized as an Imperial territory. If Texas starts operating outside of America's laws and conduct it is not recognized as American territory. This is all true until the area is reclaimed by the power from which it used to belong.

No, who it belongs to and why IS THE WHOLE STORY.

I was talking ethical reasons here, as in why the Empire deserves to have Windhelm or why Ulfric does.

A city or country does not get to just decide its independence. It doesn't work that way. That's the whole reason there are Civil Wars. Because one side rejects the others claim of independence.

That's great and all but it doesn't pertain to the argument. During the course of the Civil War Windhelm is on it's own and not recognized as an Imperial city because it does not abide by it's code and laws.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

*sigh* I am saying you cannot say that it is a fact that Ulfric knew or didn't know or was willing or not willing. It can't be established one way or another. But you keep saying that it can.

I'm not saying he knew, I'm saying the facts point towards it.

Let me ask you this:

Nothing is being asked.

Ulfric is only equivalent to the Emperor if he attains the title of High King over an independent Skyrim. To assign him equivalency is to admit he's already won the war.

No, it really isn't. I was never saying they were equivalent nor on the same plateau, but both of them were cornered by an enemy greater than themselves and both of them submitted, preferring not to die. Mede had the Empire riding on his shoulders when he gave in, yet Ulfric had both his men and arguably the fate of Skyrim when he gave in.

Point is, both of them didn't want to die and surrendered.

 

[Moris]

If it's operating outside of Imperial laws and conduct it is not recognized as an Imperial territory. If Texas starts operating outside of America's laws and conduct it is not recognized as American territory. This is all true until the area is reclaimed by the power from which it used to belong.

I'm sorry. But that's not true. When a city or state declares independence, the legal burden is not on the host nation to prove that the state should still belong. The legal burden is on the declaring state to gain some legitimacy from some other source. Its own declaration does not suffice. In our modern world, we would require a referendum executed under laws recognized by the host state -- or international recognition of the legitimacy of its claim based on a whole bunch of requirements. This is why the Palestinians don't have membership in the UN except as observers and why their application to become a full member is so contentious. [/quote]

I was talking ethical reasons here, as in why the Empire deserves to have Windhelm or why Ulfric does.

Feel free, but it's not relevant here.

That's great and all but it doesn't pertain to the argument. During the course of the Civil War Windhelm is on it's own and not recognized as an Imperial city because it does not abide by it's code and laws.

See above. Not recognized by whom? Windhelm? Agree. The other holds? Disagree. The Empire? Disagree.

So, I'll rephrase my other question, it's only a crime to be willingly in contact with the Thalmor if your reputation with your people is based on the expectations that you will destroy them?

 

[Moris]

I'm not saying he knew, I'm saying the facts point towards it.

And I am disagreeing and saying that the facts don't point toward it.

No, it really isn't. I was never saying they were equivalent nor on the same plateau, but both of them were cornered by an enemy greater than themselves and both of them submitted, preferring not to die. Mede had the Empire riding on his shoulders when he gave in, yet Ulfric had both his men and arguably the fate of Skyrim when he gave in.

Point is, both of them didn't want to die and surrendered.

You said: "Both Ulfric and the Emperor are the leaders of their factions both politically and militarily, and that is why I compare Ulfric and the Emperor rather than Ulfric and Tulius."

I am arguing against that position by saying that the comparison between Ulfric and Tullius is more appropriate because their relative stations are closer.

The Emperor isn't even in the fight. The closest he comes is attending a wedding! And when that happens, Ulfric refuses to engage him.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

I'm sorry. But that's not true. When a city or state declares independence, the legal burden is not on the host nation to prove that the state should still belong.

Why isn't it? If a territory secedes and declares independence it is up to the host nation to do something about it. Real world legalities do not apply to Skyrim,

The legal burden is on the declaring state to gain some legitimacy from some other source.

Legitimacy isn't even the question here, Windhelm does not comply with the Empire's laws or creeds and is thus not under Imperial jurisdiction and is acting on it's own terms. Whether or not it is legitimately independent is besides the point, as the fact is that Windhelm acts on it's own accord and wages open war with it's former political host.

Its own declaration does not suffice.

So why did the American Declaration of Independence suffice?

Feel free, but it's not relevant here.

Hence "that's another story."

See above. Not recognized by whom? Windhelm? Agree. The other holds? Disagree. The Empire? Disagree.

Though some political bodies may disagree as long as Windhelm is not under Imperial jurisdiction it cannot be recognized as an Imperial hold. The Empire might as well hold as much power over it as the An Xileel.

So, I'll rephrase my other question, it's only a crime to be willingly in contact with the Thalmor if your reputation with your people is based on the expectations that you will destroy them?

It's a crime against your nation if you're defecting information to them, but it depends on the context of said communication. To answer your question, no, it doesn't matter who you are.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

You said: "Both Ulfric and the Emperor are the leaders of their factions both politically and militarily, and that is why I compare Ulfric and the Emperor rather than Ulfric and Tulius."

Can you refute this?

I am arguing against that position by saying that the comparison between Ulfric and Tullius is more appropriate because their relative stations are closer.

I compare Ulfric and the Emperor because both of them are the leaders of their own factions in all senses, comparisons are objective to how "close" the two are. While Tulius may be leading the Imperial forces in Skyrim Ulfric is just as much at war with him as he is with the Emperor.

The Emperor isn't even in the fight. The closest he comes is attending a wedding! And when that happens, Ulfric refuses to engage him.

I think you mean the closest he comes is his visit on his ship, but regardless if Ulfric's at war with the Empire he's at war with the Emperor.

 

[Moris]

Why isn't it? If a territory secedes and declares independence it is up to the host nation to do something about it. Real world legalities do not apply to Skyrim,


Legitimacy isn't even the question here, Windhelm does not comply with the Empire's laws or creeds and is thus not under Imperial jurisdiction and is acting on it's own terms. Whether or not it is legitimately independent is besides the point, as the fact is that Windhelm acts on it's own accord and wages open war with it's former political host.


So why did the American Declaration of Independence suffice?

It didn't. They fought a war over it. It wasn't until 1783, when the Treaty of Paris was signed that US was recognized as a sovereign state by the British, and by the international community.

Also, the Confederation of Southern States' Confederate States of America's declaration at the Montgomery Convention in 1861 did not suffice either. That's why they fought a civil war over it.

Though some political bodies may disagree as long as Windhelm is not under Imperial jurisdiction it cannot be recognized as an Imperial hold. The Empire might as well hold as much power over it as the An Xileel.

You keep using the passive tense, "cannot be recognized". I keep asking, by whom? Who cannot recognize it as one?

It's a crime against your nation if you're defecting information to them, but it depends on the context of said communication. To answer your question, no, it doesn't matter who you are.

So you condemn Tullius for his willing and knowing communication with the Thalmor?

 

[Moris]

I think you mean the closest he comes is his visit on his ship, but regardless if Ulfric's at war with the Empire he's at war with the Emperor.

No, that's not what I mean. I mean close as in "appropriate for comparison".

We're talking about who surrenders to whom. And in what manner.

The Emperor never gets a chance to surrender to Ulfric. Ulfric refuses to invade Solitude while the Emperor is there. The Emperor does not fight on the front lines in this war.

 

[Dagmar]

Ulfric isn't racist

Only to those that are blind to what's going on in Windhelm or lack the ability to comprehend the meaning of racism. I'm hoping this was posted in jest because it's hard to believe you're even going here after you've been so thoroughly and objectively refuted on this matter a dozen plus times over. Putting aside the fact that all the Jarls are racist with regards to the policy of banning Khajiit from entering the city, you've been confronted time and time again with the undeniable fact that Ulfric enforces a policy of racial segregation on the Dunmer, however mild it may be by normative standards of Skyrim and Tamriel.

Whether you posted this as a joke or not we may as well take a this as a learning moment as to why players should get past this. While conceptually it's offensive on an intellectual level it's not particularly oppressive to the Dunmer. They still have all the other liberties afforded to citizens of Windhelm. By Tamrielic standards it's a rather trite form of racism which is why all sides should just get over it, especially those that would choose to put forth arguments that are actually constructive for supporting the Stormcloaks. To do otherwise is pointless and fruitless as any educated intelligent person knows that government imposed racial segregation, however limited in scope, is undeniably a form of racism, and it's compelling, reasonable and fair to ascribe that racism to the government that enforces it, which for a capital city is its Jarl.

What should be points of focus for joining the Stormcloaks are the reestablishment of freedom of religion, ejection of the Thalmor from Skyrim, and restoring sovereignty to Skyrim as it will never accomplish these goals as long as it remains part of the Empire and the Empire remains the unwilling proxy of the Aldmeri Dominion (as it has for a quarter of a century). There's plenty of room for intelligent debate within these premises and there's none for the largely irrelevant debate about the racist nature of the segregation of the Dunmer in Windhelm.

 

[Zenoh]

Tough decision to be fair, since the Imperials did try to behead you. But, Imperials since they like all races unless your a Nord i'd go with Imperials.

 

[Raijin]

Tough decision to be fair, since the Imperials did try to behead you. But, Imperials since they like all races unless your a Nord i'd go with Imperials.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

It didn't. They fought a war over it. It wasn't until 1783, when the Treaty of Paris was signed that US was recognized as a sovereign state by the British, and by the international community.

You're right here, sorry, though I'm interested in history I wasn't aware the Declaration was fought over.

You keep using the passive tense, "cannot be recognized". I keep asking, by whom? Who cannot recognize it as one?

By essentially everyone, nobody can legitimately call Windhelm an Imperial city throughout the course of the Civil War.

So you condemn Tullius for his willing and knowing communication with the Thalmor?

It is out of necessity that Imperial generals and political officials communicate with the Thalmor as part of the treaty. While Skyrim's jarls seem to have little to no interaction with the Thalmor, Ulfric was still in contact with them and considered an asset.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

No, that's not what I mean. I mean close as in "appropriate for comparison".

We're talking about who surrenders to whom. And in what manner.

The Emperor never gets a chance to surrender to Ulfric. Ulfric refuses to invade Solitude while the Emperor is there. The Emperor does not fight on the front lines in this war.

This doesn't mean the two can't be compared, as I've said both of them are the leaders of their respected factions and both of them were dealt unfavorable hands and chose life over death. They are similar in that sense. I'm not trying to say they are exact in every way.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

I like how you brand all Imperial supporters as Stormcloak haters here.

 

[Rolff Stone-Fist]

Hey Rolff look at what I found while I was in the New Gnisis Cornerclub

Let's go after Ambarys Rendar and Malthyr Elenil They seem to be hiding something. I'm sure Lord Ulfric would be interested in knowing why they have an Imperial officers uniform laying about

Wouldn't surprise me. Those worthless good for nothing grey-backs have done nothing for Skyrim's freedom. I'm glad to meet someone who agrees with me. I think we should lynch those two filth and rid them altogether of spreading their stink. To hell with Ulfric, he's what invited them to this damn place!

 

[Dagmar]

It states that Ulfric was in direct contact with the Thalmor until he broke it off following the Markarth Incident. Which implies a relationship between the two greater than what you've ascertained. Ulfric was communicating with the Thalmor, as far as whatever was communicated is unclear.

As Moris has correctly pointed out, communication doesn't imply that Ulfric knew that contact was with the Thalmor. They are masters of espionage and deception and it's an understatement to say that it strains credibility to believe that Ulfric would ever willingly collude with the Thalmor on any level when his hatred for them is so transparent, is the only thing that exceeds his hatred for the Empire, and exceeds that hatred by leaps and bounds.

The man was tortured by the Thalmor for an indeterminate amount of time. He can't contain himself when he sees Elenwen at High Hrothgar. Ulfric literally loses all composure and is willing to accept her leaving the meeting as a concession in the negotiations. Any attempt to openly approach someone so scarred by his experiences with the Thalmor would have been imprudent on the part of the Thalmor and when it comes to espionage, the Thalmor are the polar opposite of imprudent. It's far more plausible that they sent an undercover agent to manipulate Ulfric. The fact that Ulfric would knowingly make contact with that agent only means that the agents cover was believed by Ulfric.

I've followed your dialogue with Morlis in this regard and everything you've put forth to support the notion to the contrary is speculative and the conclusions you've made based on the game content you've put forth in an effort to support such notions are non-sequiter. For example you mischaracterized the description in his dossier where it's stated that the Markarth Incident "resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact." That's merely indicative of his being unreceptive to the overtures of any third party which is understandable given that he was imprisoned afterwards. There's nothing in that part of the dossier that supports the notion that he knowingly colluded with the Thalmor.

 

[Moris]

This doesn't mean the two can't be compared, as I've said both of them are the leaders of their respected factions and both of them were dealt unfavorable hands and chose life over death. They are similar in that sense. I'm not trying to say they are exact in every way.

You're saying that it is more appropriate to compare them than to compare Tullius and Ulfric. And I am saying that I disagree. This isn't rocket science, Dr. We disagree with each other.

I just can't compare a man who doesn't strap on armor, get in the front line of the war, and actually surrender when personally beaten by his weapon yielding opponent with one who does. The Civil War quest line makes almost every stage a mirror image of the other side. The end is also a mirror image. It just so happens to be a mirror image in which Tullius surrenders.

-------

Dagmar, brilliant post. I wanna give rep. But some more rep worthy posts need to appear before I can gush all over you.

We can't really know if Ulfric is truly racist in his heart, but we can infer from his refusal to put the plight of the Dunmar, Argonians, and Khajiit on his administrative agenda that he is. Like every other Jarl, as Dagmar says.

For those who think this is a deal or no deal issue, you are free to have that opinion. But I challenge you to find a single leader throughout our own history who was neither racist nor enforced some sort of racist policies, whether actively, or by failing to repeal them. Some of the most respected (for example, Winston Churchill, to whom I referred much earlier) maintained a brutally oppressive colonial government. As I have a minor interest in history, I'd be very interested to hear about completely non-racist leaders enforcing no policies which anyone at the time would have reasonably condemned.

 

[Zenoh]

Guess i was wrong

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

You're saying that it is more appropriate to compare them than to compare Tullius and Ulfric. And I am saying that I disagree. This isn't rocket science, Dr. We disagree with each other.

I just can't compare a man who doesn't strap on armor, get in the front line of the war, and actually surrender when personally beaten by his weapon yielding opponent with one who does. The Civil War quest line makes almost every stage a mirror image of the other side. The end is also a mirror image. It just so happens to be a mirror image in which Tullius surrenders.

Actually, the Emperor did fight and lead his forces in combat during the Great War and it was his leadership and strategic prowess on the battlefield that would eventually destroy the Aldmeri forces in Cyrodiil. Just so that we're on the same page and Titus isn't being made out to be a pompous and sheltered Emperor who's only view of war has been from inside the White Gold Tower.

So both of them lead their forces in combat, and have control over their respected factions both militarily and politically. Though Ulfric commands a force dwarfed by the Empire prior to the war, everything is scaled in the sense that Ulfric's ambush party consisted of Tulius and an unspecified number of legionaries.(It's stated they outnumbered Ulfric's men,) while Mede had another Empire to deal with. I'd more so consider Galmar as being a better match for Tulius.

Dagmar, well, you guys got me on this one. I really wasn't feeling good about the stance I had taken there to begin with.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Guess i was wrong

Just because he posted an obviously bias gif doesn't mean you were wrong, he post that whenever he knows he can't provide anything to prove the claim otherwise.