Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

Stormcloak quest line is enjoyable, I liked sacking two cities. I rarely play the Civil War these days, I tend to just kill Stormcloaks, Imperials and Thalmor.

Though to clear up another thing if you're interested. The thing about trials, that many Stormcloaks go on about sometimes. Trials in TES, which is based on our own history. Trials are politically motivated and very rarely do they happen, especially for something like High Treason which the punishment is just death. In the provinces where they have some sort of justice system, trials are rare.

The trial of the smugglers was nonexistant, and the punishment swift. The body of Trechtus' father was kept hanging for weeks during the hottest summer Sollicich-on-Ker had seen in centuries.

That was during the Second Era, on Summerset Isle. Trials are just more political, all the provinces are kind of the same on that, except probably Skyrim. I couldn't really see a Nord with a big beard, with a big axe, sitting in a little court room, with some reading glasses on going "Ladies and gentleman of the Jury..."

 

[Daelon DuLac]

Stormcloak quest line is enjoyable, I liked sacking two cities. I rarely play the Civil War these days, I tend to just kill Stormcloaks, Imperials and Thalmor.

Though to clear up another thing if you're interested. The thing about trials, that many Stormcloaks go on about sometimes. Trials in TES, which is based on our own history. Trials are politically motivated and very rarely do they happen, especially for something like High Treason which the punishment is just death. In the provinces where they have some sort of justice system, trials are rare.

The trial of the smugglers was nonexistant, and the punishment swift. The body of Trechtus' father was kept hanging for weeks during the hottest summer Sollicich-on-Ker had seen in centuries.

That was during the Second Era, on Summerset Isle. Trials are just more political, all the provinces are kind of the same on that, except probably Skyrim. I couldn't really see a Nord with a big beard, with a big axe, sitting in a little court room, with some reading glasses on going "Ladies and gentleman of the Jury..."

Hey! Then why am I studying law! I thought it would be cool to be a big ole Nord with a big beard passing down judgment on my betters!

 

[Pronged Pickle]

This may be because I first sided with the Imperials, was heavily influenced by Imperial-supporting friends, and just generally being a Legionnaire, but I couldn't help but feel bad after finally completing the Stormcloak quest. I remember hearing Ulfric saying something about "taking the fight to the Dominion," and I'm like: "Well...better rack up on some healing potions and some Words of Power."

 

[Daelon DuLac]

This may be because I first sided with the Imperials, was heavily influenced by Imperial-supporting friends, and just generally being a Legionnaire, but I couldn't help but feel bad after finally completing the Stormcloak quest. I remember hearing Ulfric saying something about "taking the fight to the Dominion," and I'm like: "Well...better rack up on some healing potions and some Words of Power."

Of course it helps that Imperial Armor is a heck of lot cooler than the crap that the Stormies would like you to wear. I don't care what Ulfrich or the leaders say, I am not dressing like a savage.

 

[DrunkenMage]

This may be because I first sided with the Imperials, was heavily influenced by Imperial-supporting friends, and just generally being a Legionnaire, but I couldn't help but feel bad after finally completing the Stormcloak quest. I remember hearing Ulfric saying something about "taking the fight to the Dominion," and I'm like: "Well...better rack up on some healing potions and some Words of Power."

Of course it helps that Imperial Armor is a heck of lot cooler than the crap that the Stormies would like you to wear. I don't care what Ulfrich or the leaders say, I am not dressing like a savage.

It is a shame that there isn't a numbered Legion in Skyrim (On the Dominion's border), with the Legionnaires in Skyrim in light armor and talk about joining recently. So you're just seeing an Auxiliary Legion (Militia). The normal Legions are in heavy armor, and fight alongside Battlemages of the Shadow Legion.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

This may be because I first sided with the Imperials, was heavily influenced by Imperial-supporting friends, and just generally being a Legionnaire, but I couldn't help but feel bad after finally completing the Stormcloak quest. I remember hearing Ulfric saying something about "taking the fight to the Dominion," and I'm like: "Well...better rack up on some healing potions and some Words of Power."

Of course it helps that Imperial Armor is a heck of lot cooler than the crap that the Stormies would like you to wear. I don't care what Ulfrich or the leaders say, I am not dressing like a savage.

It is a shame that there isn't a numbered Legion in Skyrim (On the Dominion's border), with the Legionnaires in Skyrim in light armor and talk about joining recently. So you're just seeing an Auxiliary Legion (Militia). The normal Legions are in heavy armor, and fight alongside Battlemages of the Shadow Legion.

Do they use the heavy armor you see on the officers in SR as the norm? That would seem to make more sense than the lightweight stuff for the infantry. The archers maybe, but not the infantry.

 

[Nephor The Shadow Stalker]

I will agree with you. The lore only works in someone's favor if they see it working in their favor. People supporting Skyrim's independence will not call Ulfric a traitor because some dumb law says it is. Otherwise, you have to call Torygg a traitor, his court traitors, and the entire guardforce traitors, because they all contributed in some way to the death of Torygg.

Three people were involved. Ulfric, Torygg and Rogvir. Ulfric issued the challnge, Torygg accepted it because his honor was being questioned. Ulfric killed Torygg, fled from Solitude and a member of the Solitude guard allowed Ulfric to escape. Rogvir was later executed for accessory to High Treason.

I always imagine Ulfric running like a bat out of hell from Solitude He's running, looks behind him and saw all of the Guards after him and was like "Oh pl***" bolting for the gate. You could totally see it, coming out of the inn and you see Ulfric running past, then a minute later like fifty guards.

Why was he running if it was a legal action based on time honored Nord beliefs? Did he know he'd done something wrong? Was using the Voice against someone that had no defense wrong? I realize the guards are mostly Imperials, but, wouldn't they have, at least taken in to account Nord rules?

You guys take this way to seriously.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

Three people were involved. Ulfric, Torygg and Rogvir. Ulfric issued the challnge, Torygg accepted it because his honor was being questioned. Ulfric killed Torygg, fled from Solitude and a member of the Solitude guard allowed Ulfric to escape. Rogvir was later executed for accessory to High Treason.

I always imagine Ulfric running like a bat out of hell from Solitude He's running, looks behind him and saw all of the Guards after him and was like "Oh pl***" bolting for the gate. You could totally see it, coming out of the inn and you see Ulfric running past, then a minute later like fifty guards.

Why was he running if it was a legal action based on time honored Nord beliefs? Did he know he'd done something wrong? Was using the Voice against someone that had no defense wrong? I realize the guards are mostly Imperials, but, wouldn't they have, at least taken in to account Nord rules?

You guys take this way to seriously.

Yup. And we're proud that we have no life outside Skryim!

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Why was he running if it was a legal action based on time honored Nord beliefs? Did he know he'd done something wrong? Was using the Voice against someone that had no defense wrong? I realize the guards are mostly Imperials, but, wouldn't they have, at least taken in to account Nord rules?

Ulfric knew it was illegal in the eyes of the Empire, he was an ex Legionnaire and would be well versed in Imperial law, having sworn an oath to the Emperor and every citizen of the Empire. He knew what he was doing when he went into the Blue Palace, and why the Empire was going to execute him. Which is why I cited Imperial Law.

The guards in Solitude were Nords, the Imperials weren't involved at the time. The Legion stepped in to restore order when the Civil War broke out and Holds began picking sides.

Though also many Nords consider the duel dishonorable not simply because of Imperial law, but because of the conflicting issues of the duel, such as the thu'um and Torygg's age.

I think the issue of Torygg's murder/duel is deeper than that, rooted in Nordic honor. Ulfric Challenging Torygg in the latter's court is questioning his honor in the old nordic way. It just so happens to also involve Skyrim's independence or not, which has major implications on the Empire, with Skyrim having a ton of resources the big wigs back in Cyrodiil need for whatever reason (War and lining their pockets maybe?). Seems like coincidenc but that might have something to do with Imperial Law coming into play. Had it only been about Honor, would the Empire still call Ulfric a traitor?

Quoting Imperial Law cost you a few readers? Really? You'd think backing up an argument with facts would add readers. I'm confused.

Some people will try for anything, majority of Stormcloak supporters in this thread are always willing to try back up their argument no matter how low or far off they need to be. In this case, taking something completely out of context and instead of arguing why and what was it was used for, merely argue about it being used for something it wasn't.

No argument here my friend.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I think the issue of Torygg's murder/duel is deeper than that, rooted in Nordic honor. Ulfric Challenging Torygg in the latter's court is questioning his honor in the old nordic way. It just so happens to also involve Skyrim's independence or not, which has major implications on the Empire, with Skyrim having a ton of resources the big wigs back in Cyrodiil need for whatever reason (War and lining their pockets maybe?). Seems like coincidenc but that might have something to do with Imperial Law coming into play. Had it only been about Honor, would the Empire still call Ulfric a traitor?

Ulfric Stormcloak! You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, the assassination of King Torygg, and high treason against the Empire. - Gen. Tullius

Skyrim's independence could of occurred peacefully, the Empire didn't want a Civil War. But when you kill the person who represents the Empire and the Emperor, the Empire would have to respond either way. Or risk open riots, other rebellions and what not if it seems Imperial rule is weakening. It occurred during the Imperial Simulacrum when Imperial authority dropped, provinces took advantage of it.

Torygg was a symbol, he represented the Empire in Skyrim. It isn't so much about Torygg wanting or not wanting independence as it is about what Torygg at the time represented. He was the Empire, representing the idea of the Empire, something Ulfric could touch, see, and ultimately kill. That is how I see it anyway.

 

[Pronged Pickle]

Why was he running if it was a legal action based on time honored Nord beliefs? Did he know he'd done something wrong? Was using the Voice against someone that had no defense wrong? I realize the guards are mostly Imperials, but, wouldn't they have, at least taken in to account Nord rules?

Ulfric knew it was illegal in the eyes of the Empire, he was an ex Legionnaire and would be well versed in Imperial law, having sworn an oath to the Emperor and every citizen of the Empire. He knew what he was doing when he went into the Blue Palace, and why the Empire was going to execute him. Which is why I cited Imperial Law.

The guards in Solitude were Nords, the Imperials weren't involved at the time. The Legion stepped in to restore order when the Civil War broke out and Holds began picking sides.

Though also many Nords consider the duel dishonorable not simply because of Imperial law, but because of the conflicting issues of the duel, such as the thu'um and Torygg's age.

I think the issue of Torygg's murder/duel is deeper than that, rooted in Nordic honor. Ulfric Challenging Torygg in the latter's court is questioning his honor in the old nordic way. It just so happens to also involve Skyrim's independence or not, which has major implications on the Empire, with Skyrim having a ton of resources the big wigs back in Cyrodiil need for whatever reason (War and lining their pockets maybe?). Seems like coincidenc but that might have something to do with Imperial Law coming into play. Had it only been about Honor, would the Empire still call Ulfric a traitor?

Um...well, yes. The only reason Ulfric challenged Torygg was because he was High King, which is practically the Skyrim embodiment of the Emperor, so it not only sent a message to the other Jarls, but the Empire itself. And if he just murdered some guy on the street "out of honor," that, too, would be against the law.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I tend to view Ulfric, not so much evil as more emotionally wrecked.

His story is rather tragic. He was a proud soldier of the Empire, captured in war and broken by the Thalmor, made to believe he had betrayed his father, betrayed the Emperor, betrayed the Empire and betrayed every one of his brothers and sisters of the Legion. He was remade by the Thalmor, allowed to escape and was an active Thalmor asset for a time. He was then arrested by the Empire after Markarth Incident, his father died while Ulfric was in prison and he had to smuggle his eulogy out for his fathers funeral.

I believe you can at times see his conflicting emotions, one moment he's all songs and personal glory, the next he's humble. One moment he's hesitant about taking lives, the next he's toying with a man's life for a dramatic moment. Another moment he's fighting for his people, caring about Skyrim, and the next he's willingly to abandon an entire Hold of his supporters so that Elenwen can leave High Hrothgar. Then again he's all damn the Jarls and damn the moot, and next he's praising the moot and tradition.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Ulfric knew it was illegal in the eyes of the Empire, he was an ex Legionnaire and would be well versed in Imperial law, having sworn an oath to the Emperor and every citizen of the Empire. He knew what he was doing when he went into the Blue Palace, and why the Empire was going to execute him. Which is why I cited Imperial Law.

The guards in Solitude were Nords, the Imperials weren't involved at the time. The Legion stepped in to restore order when the Civil War broke out and Holds began picking sides.

Though also many Nords consider the duel dishonorable not simply because of Imperial law, but because of the conflicting issues of the duel, such as the thu'um and Torygg's age.

I think the issue of Torygg's murder/duel is deeper than that, rooted in Nordic honor. Ulfric Challenging Torygg in the latter's court is questioning his honor in the old nordic way. It just so happens to also involve Skyrim's independence or not, which has major implications on the Empire, with Skyrim having a ton of resources the big wigs back in Cyrodiil need for whatever reason (War and lining their pockets maybe?). Seems like coincidenc but that might have something to do with Imperial Law coming into play. Had it only been about Honor, would the Empire still call Ulfric a traitor?

Um...well, yes. The only reason Ulfric challenged Torygg was because he was High King, which is practically the Skyrim embodiment of the Emperor, so it not only sent a message to the other Jarls, but the Empire itself. And if he just murdered some guy on the street "out of honor," that, too, would be against the law.

Well, the only reason the duel is murder is because Torygg was High King, who was seen by many as a child. But that also led quite a few (Stormcloak supporters) to question his ability to rule. If it was just between two people, with no connection to Skyrim or independence or the position of High King, things would have been a tad bit different.

There are tons of points that lead to this conclusion for me. Ulfric is a jarl, and if he got his way, Skyrim might have taken a ton of resources with it, no matter the peaceful or violent nature of that. when the great war breaks out again, the Empire will need all the resources it can get, and even 1% can possibly be the difference. That is why I think the Empire has more at stake when it comes to not recognizing the duel and having law come into play. They need the resources in Skyrim, and an independent Skyrim will not let go of those resources easily.

 

[Opinionated Asmodeus]

I'm starting to like the Stormcloaks less and less. My new Redguard character, whom I made to look like Vaas from ubisofts FC3, sans the scars cause they weren't available, is gonna be pro Empire. My Nord girl just might join the empire too.

And Ulfric sounds like a complete dictator.

If you haven't already, you yourself should play both questlines to get your own opinion on each side. Mage here seems to have read every book in Skyrim, and more, regarding the topic, so you could just ask him.

I have actually played the Stormcloak line all the way through. I went with Hadvar at the start of the game for my Redguard male and when he said we should try to reason with the Stormcloaks it had me pause. I usually went with Ralof before, and we all should know by now that he suggests ambushing the Imperials, so that difference right there was enough to make me reconsider which side favor.

 

[DrunkenMage]

 

[NENALATA]

WoW! Look at all the new pages since I was away. Amazing. I hate to say this however, if DrunkenMage was a Legate in Skyrim, he'd have the Empire pulled back together in no time.

Empire will need leadership like that displayed on this forum if it's to survive.

Of course... I hate to ruin the cake here, however Empire's still going to have to deal with the Dominion eventually or vice versa.

When TES VI comes out, I will look forward to seeing who did what when the smoke finally cleared.

But until that time, you... you keep on keeping on Imperials...

"You took the long road but we'll be waiting".

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

WoW! Look at all the new pages since I was away. Amazing. I hate to say this however, if DrunkenMage was a Legate in Skyrim, he'd have the Empire pulled back together in no time.

Empire will need leadership like that displayed on this forum if it's to survive.

Of course... I hate to ruin the cake here, however Empire's still going to have to deal with the Dominion eventually or vice versa.

When TES VI comes out, I will look forward to seeing who did what when the smoke finally cleared.

But until that time, you... you keep on keeping on Imperials...

"You took the long road but we'll be waiting".

Good point. Not like we will decide the true canon end of the Civil War, so better to sit and wait for the results.

 

[DrunkenMage]

WoW! Look at all the new pages since I was away. Amazing. I hate to say this however, if DrunkenMage was a Legate in Skyrim, he'd have the Empire pulled back together in no time.

Empire will need leadership like that displayed on this forum if it's to survive.

Of course... I hate to ruin the cake here, however Empire's still going to have to deal with the Dominion eventually or vice versa.

When TES VI comes out, I will look forward to seeing who did what when the smoke finally cleared.

But until that time, you... you keep on keeping on Imperials...

"You took the long road but we'll be waiting".

Dealing with the Dominion would be easy, force the Aldmeri to line their borders while the Empire builds a cheap wall, some spikes, and other things to stop the enemy from getting across. Place fire catapults along the border and set fire to Valenwood, the plant life being injured will call upon the Wild Hunt and the Altmer troops get torn to pieces by their Bosmer allies. Pick off any of the creatures that make it towards the wall with archers, mages and other siege equipment. All in the meantime enjoying a fine mug of Colovian Brandy, watching the flames, the crazy creatures and Altmer screaming/being torn apart limb from limb.

Collect their heads, mail to the Thalmor Lords. Giving the ultimatum "We have no demands, we're just gonna kill you."

 

[DrunkenMage]

Well, the only reason the duel is murder is because Torygg was High King, who was seen by many as a child. But that also led quite a few (Stormcloak supporters) to question his ability to rule. If it was just between two people, with no connection to Skyrim or independence or the position of High King, things would have been a tad bit different.

Torygg was seen as a boy, because he was young. His ability to rule wasn't in question, he was blamed for accepting the White-Gold Concordat and Imperial coin. (It was his father however).

The Jarls all swore fealty to High King Torygg, even the Stormcloak supporting Jarls, only Ulfric, none of the others had voiced about independence. Torygg was their King by tradition, his right to rule was by tradition dating back to the First Era. Torygg had only been King for a very short time, he was killed not too long after the moot it seems.

I'm not sure what you're getting at by saying it would be a tad different, of course it would be different, Ulfric killed the High King and is being charged with High Treason, he started a rebellion and is being charged with insurrection also? "You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, the assassination of King Torygg, and high treason against the Empire."

There are tons of points that lead to this conclusion for me. Ulfric is a jarl, and if he got his way, Skyrim might have taken a ton of resources with it, no matter the peaceful or violent nature of that. when the great war breaks out again, the Empire will need all the resources it can get, and even 1% can possibly be the difference. That is why I think the Empire has more at stake when it comes to not recognizing the duel and having law come into play. They need the resources in Skyrim, and an independent Skyrim will not let go of those resources easily.

Skyrim's main resource is silver. The Empire isn't desperate for Skyrim's resources, the East Empire Company only has one shipping warehouse open during 4E 201 until the player does Rise in the East Quest. They were fine with stopping ships to over half of Skyrim due to a few pirates they weren't going to deal with.

As you can see by the current shipping lanes of the EETC, Windhelm which is the head office of the East Empire Trading Company in Skyrim and a major shipping area. If they're fine with cutting them off, what makes you think the Empire has more at stake?

They have plenty of places to trade and do business. It seems to me Skyrim has more at stake, silver is always nice to have. But silver isn't only confined to Skyrim. Unless the Nords learn to start eating chunks of ore, they need the Empire and Cyrodiil a tad more.

Skyrim practically gets free resources from the Empire, leaving the Empire it will cost them a lot more. If they're going to trade Cyrodiil and the EETC (If Ulfric swallows his pride, and Stormcloaks learn to trade with non-Nords) they will just raise prices ten fold, they do it to House Redoran on Solstheim. They'll take you for every last penny for common supplies.

"Damn it, Gjalund. You know we don't have that much coin." - Adril

"Look, the East Empire Company didn't give me a choice. They've raised their prices again, and there's nothing I can do about it." - Gjalund

"After all these years, they're gouging us for every last drake we have" - Adril


Edit: What happens when trading at the moment, being part of the Empire covers you if you suffer losses.

I've forwarded a request for compensation on your behalf to the Imperial Council and the mercenaries in question have already been dealt with accordingly. Again, I wish to extend my deepest apologies for this unfortunate mishap and I assure you that any future shipments into our nation will be met at the border by an Imperial patrol and personally escorted to its final destination.

Reginn Limilus
Grand Steward, Imperial City Trade Relations


Being part of the Empire, does have large benefits.

 

[NENALATA]

NENALATA said: ↑

WoW! Look at all the new pages since I was away. Amazing. I hate to say this however, if DrunkenMage was a Legate in Skyrim, he'd have the Empire pulled back together in no time.​

​

Empire will need leadership like that displayed on this forum if it's to survive.​

​

Of course... I hate to ruin the cake here, however Empire's still going to have to deal with the Dominion eventually or vice versa.​

​

When TES VI comes out, I will look forward to seeing who did what when the smoke finally cleared.​

​

But until that time, you... you keep on keeping on Imperials...​

​

"You took the long road but we'll be waiting". ​

Dealing with the Dominion would be easy, force the Aldmeri to line their borders while the Empire builds a cheap wall, some spikes, and other things to stop the enemy from getting across. Place fire catapults along the border and set fire to Valenwood, the plant life being injured will call upon the Wild Hunt and the Altmer troops get torn to pieces by their Bosmer allies. Pick off any of the creatures that make it towards the wall with archers, mages and other siege equipment. All in the meantime enjoying a fine mug of Colovian Brandy, watching the flames, the crazy creatures and Altmer screaming/being torn apart limb from limb.

Collect their heads, mail to the Thalmor Lords. Giving the ultimatum "We have no demands, we're just gonna kill you."

Hehehe

Yeah that sounds all well and good... unfort the French once thought the same thing about the Germans... they lined up all their forces on their border with Germany and the Germans outflanked them, same as the Thalmor done in The First Great War.

And they learned their lesson the hard way. The French did spectacular in WWI, however by WWII this was a different Germany, as I can imagine the Thalmor have changed as well... They know the score.

If you expect to win with one Army, then the war will for certain be lost. You have to have allies and re-enforcements. Two things the Empire will only have if Skyrim doesn't secede. And even if it doesn't, Skyrim is still going to have internal problems for years. Most of the Dominion internal problems are over and the Dominion is united.

I'm not worried about it. In TES VI we'll prob be fighting the Dominion for freedom anyways, so like I said, I look forward to see how things turn out in TES VI.

And hey you know how the Thalmor are... "if you don't join the party we'll come get ya!"