Jurgarik Greycloak
Techno master of Tamriel.
And I do not see how there should be a Civil War in the first place if the Thalmor did not use the Empire as tools to do so.
but nevermind, were are beginning to get into it again.
Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?
- Thread starter EvilCrazyCows
- Start date
And I do not see how there should be a Civil War in the first place if the Thalmor did not use the Empire as tools to do so.
but nevermind, were are beginning to get into it again.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Thalmor used Ulfric as a tool. There wouldn't be a Civil War if Ulfric didn't kill his High King and declare war on the Western Holds.
I don't recall finding a Thalmor Dossier on Tullius or Mede.
Edit: Though to be fair, the Thalmor are playing both the Stormcloaks and the Empire as pawns. They're sitting there while men battle each other, pesky elves.
Jurgarik Greycloak
Techno master of Tamriel.
And we do not what happened to get Ulfric there. MAYBE Ulfric was being misled. MAYBE he genuinely thought that the only way Skyrim can be truly free of the Thalmor was to force the Empire and Thalmor out of the province. WE. DO. NOT. KNOW.
as for the Dossier. You do realize that it says he became uncooperative, right? I wonder why. maybe it is because he would just well chop their heads off as listen to them? Plus it even states they do not want a STORMCLOAK VICTORY either. Seems to me that they fear stability over anything else. that proves that the Empire soldiers are just as much puppets in this as the Stormcloaks and their "out for himself even though nothing really proves that Thalmor puppet" Jarl.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
You also do realize the Dossier says direct contact remains a possibility. He's doing what they want still.
Jurgarik Greycloak
Techno master of Tamriel.
and so is the Empire by focusing on it. They fear stability, not The Empire, not the Stormcloaks, and certainly not Ulfric.
The dossier states that AS LONG AS THE WAR REMAINS INDECISIVE. That clearly states they want the Empire and Stormcloaks/"Power-hungry" Ulfric to be busy so that Skyrim and the mighty nords are unstable/not involved in the decimation of the Thalmor.
"Lore"/"evidence" of anything is just not one-sided. Stormcloaks are going to see the death of Torygg as a symbol that the empire is weak, and that Ulfric truly wants what he believes is best for Skyrim, even if they do not always agree with some of the things he does.
Rimfaxe96
Well-Known Member
At what cost? They lost all their forces in Cyrodiil for a piece of paper which gained them nothing because the Empire isn't paying any tributes and they didn't get their chunk of Hammerfell because they kicked them out. All they have gained is some sort of diplomatic contact with the Empire's politicians, this way they might even gain an impression when they're going for their first move, but that'll be useless in case the Empire decides to round them up and kill 'em instead of letting them go home first.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
The Empire by focusing on it? The Civil War? Well they have to focus on it, it isn't like it is the fault by trying to deal with the rebellion, their hand was forced. By Ulfric. It all goes back to their little asset, it is at his feet. He allowed them to pressure the Empire into strict enforcement, he allowed them free reign across Skyrim by drawing Imperial soldiers into Military camps and war. Ulfric's rebellion has caused many things, not just issues with the Thalmor. His rebellion has made the roads unsafe as bandits take advantage of less protection, his rebellion has sent prices food up, causing many people to struggle by. His rebellion has more consequences than the Thalmor.
They want the Civil War to remain for as long as possible because it weakens the Empire and Skyrim. The Thalmor don't want a swift victory on either side, it isn't about being power hungry. They say an Imperial victory will harm their overall position in Skyrim, they say they also want to avoid a Stormcloak victory.
It says as long as the Civil War remains indecisive they will remain hands off, hands off, out in public and in the open such as Helgen when they were trying to stop the execution of Ulfric Stormcloak. They continue to indirectly aid the Stormcloaks.
Lore can be many things, Yellow book of Riddles is also lore.
Jurgarik Greycloak
Techno master of Tamriel.
It got them what they wanted. The WGC was the same demands from before the Great War. That being said, the Civil War is a thalmor tool in keeping Skyrim out of the next war (They fear the Nords) and are using both the Empire an dStormcloaks to do just that. They wanted the Nords to rise up like this, and they would have done anything to do this, not just use Ulfric.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
They're not the exact same demands. The White-Gold Concordat didn't give them what they wanted, until Ulfric killed the High King. The Thalmor lost Hammerfell, they lost their entire main army in Cyrodiil and the ban on Talos was so poorly enforced that every Nord from Falkreath to Winterhold could have little shrines to Talos without any issues.
The Thalmor fear the Nords? Show me, where in any instance of anything lore related. Where it says the Thalmor fear the Nords?
Jurgarik Greycloak
Techno master of Tamriel.
maybe, but they used that as a stepping stone, th eWGC was the deception, and the great war is continuing in the shadows, and no one is actually fighting back.
that part was a joke. I was saying that the Thalmor are using the Empire and Stormcloaks to keep Skyrim unstable and humanity (not the Empire) divided.
Rimfaxe96
Well-Known Member
They aren't using the Empire, Skyrim was part of the Empire for centuries.
And the fact that Ulfric is their asset doesn't mean that he doesn't have the brain necessary to think about what would be more effective against the Thalmor, the whole Empire or 'little' lonely Skyrim. But the fact that he and all those Stormcloaks aren't doing just that gives this bitter taste to the attack dialogue of Justiciars when they're all like "Foolish/Pathetic human!", there are just some people who confirm this insult. ><
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Ulfric's actions caused the return of Alduin, and the apparent deactivation of Snow-Tower. Nirn is heading up plops creek, if Bethesda keeps going where they're going with the plot lines and all the towers falling.
The Empire needs to remain together, for there is a greater storm than the Dominion on the horizon.
The Empire needs to remain together, for there is a greater storm than the Dominion on the horizon.
Rimfaxe96
Well-Known Member
Depends on whether the rumors about the Dominion/Thalmor having Nirn's destruction as goal or not.
Jurgarik Greycloak
Techno master of Tamriel.
They're using the Empire to keep skyrim unstable. Their dossier on Ulfric confirms that, They are not only using the Stormcloaks because then they would WANT a Stormcloak victory. the fact that DO NOT WANT either is proof they are just using everybody.
when you deny the truth, you are blind. When you accept the truth, then the true enemy is seen and the Civil War has no meaning
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Unrelated to the Thalmor/Dominion. The Towers have been falling since before the rise of the Thalmor, Bethesda has been causing several towers to cease.
The White-Gold Concordat wasn't the deception, the Thalmor had intended to win the Great War, the WGC was signed and both parties needed to recover. The Empire went to the Aldmeri Dominion offering a truce, fact that many of the demands are the same doesn't mean the Empire had been deceived. The Aldmeri Dominion had already occupied Southern Hammerfell during the war and the Banning of Talos was always going to be their demand.
It was a peace treaty with the Thalmor, the Empire desperately needed to regain strength.
"White-Gold Concordat was the fancy name they put on the peace treaty between the Empire and the Thalmor. It ended the war and saved the Empire to fight another day."
You go on about fighting in the shadows, who do you think allowed the Thalmor to be able to do that? Ulfric Stormcloak. The Thalmor were very limited in their power and indeed still are when the Empire is in complete control. I had the head of the Thalmor Justiciars basically beg me to help him with his job, cause the mean Empire won't let him arrest one Nord. What makes you so certain that the Thalmor will be able to continue to do what they do after an Imperial victory. The Empire is onto their game and is about to play a very serious hand, the Empire is going to war.
"They're the high elves that rule the Aldmeri Dominion. Sworn enemies of the Empire and everything it stands for."
They actually only say they wish to avoid a Stormcloak victory, but mention an Imperial victory harms their overall position. Stormcloaks are being indirectly aided, just because the Thalmor are using them doesn't mean they want them to win. What gives you that impression, just because you're using one side to weaken the other in a long drawn out conflict means you want that side to win? Empire vs poor half of Skyrim. What makes you so sure they have to use the Empire, the Empire can take care of itself, they have recruitment and resources. All the prisoners walking around are Stormcloaks, how many prisoners do the Stormcloaks have? Only a small handful in one of their forts during the quest line. Looks like without the Thalmor aiding them, the Stormcloaks would of probably lost before Tullius had to be sent.
All the aid I've seen is for the Stormcloaks, they provide a steady line of recruitment, they kept Ulfric alive, somehow informing him on where an Imperial ambush would be, they were in Helgen to try save him. "A masterstroke by General Tullius! He's only been in charge here for a few months, but he's turned things around for the Empire. We've been trying to catch Ulfric since the war started, but he always seemed to slip through our fingers... like he knew we were coming. This time, the General turned the tables on him." - Hadvar
Reading through most of the dialogue seems to suggest that the Empire was at first oblivious to Thalmor involvement. Wasn't until Tullius who knew the Thalmor were behind it, managed to turn the favor for the Empire. I'd say you were right at first, the Empire had no idea they were be played, until Tullius arrived and put two and two together during his first few months.
Jurgarik Greycloak
Techno master of Tamriel.
instead of arguing Imperials vs Stormcloaks. What about Bears vs humans?
NENALATA
Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
The only way one could possibly understand the Stormcloaks side of the argument, is to have their Freedom(s) taken away or unjustly obstructed out of malice or arrogance.
Typically... women and progressives won't agree with any cause that goes against maintaining security for themselves and their families. That's not me being biased, that's a fact. There's been research done on this as well.
Although what's interesting is the number of Nord women fighting in this cause as well. For me, that really says alot.
There are benefits to the Stormcloaks victory. Albeit, most people only consider the good of the Empire. When you start considering what Skyrim could gain from this, the argument turns down a different path.
Who knows, perhaps if Ulfric were to win and become High King, evicting the Empire and Thalmor, perhaps he could become right emotionally again, his cause and crimes being vindicated in the end.
This same argument was probably made all across the colonies before America won it's independence.
There's an old saying and it holds true today:
"Freedom isn't Free"
Typically... women and progressives won't agree with any cause that goes against maintaining security for themselves and their families. That's not me being biased, that's a fact. There's been research done on this as well.
Although what's interesting is the number of Nord women fighting in this cause as well. For me, that really says alot.
There are benefits to the Stormcloaks victory. Albeit, most people only consider the good of the Empire. When you start considering what Skyrim could gain from this, the argument turns down a different path.
Who knows, perhaps if Ulfric were to win and become High King, evicting the Empire and Thalmor, perhaps he could become right emotionally again, his cause and crimes being vindicated in the end.
This same argument was probably made all across the colonies before America won it's independence.
There's an old saying and it holds true today:
"Freedom isn't Free"
Jurgarik Greycloak
Techno master of Tamriel.
Never thought about it that way. Thanks for this. Might have to make a Stormcloak play through (Mostly avoid the Civil War for being a Thalmor tool to destabilize humanity's united front against them).
NENALATA
Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
For some people the need for Freedom and mutual respect overrides all else ~ It's almost instinctual and once a certain lvl of mistrust is reached, Civil War becomes the inevitable conclusion. However, sometimes there are still alternatives and care must be taken to understand the direction of a cause as much as it's catalyst. Ergo, I side with Jarl B in the end. Jarl B declared ind for his hold, himself and his people from both parties early in the game. He established political equity with all the major powers and showed greater responsibility by putting the welfare of his people and their society ahead of his own personal gain by *not* falling inline with the rest of the Jarls in Skyrim who obediently followed one side or the other.
Ultimately, the man had no choice but to petition to rejoin the Empire because the Ultra Conservative Stormcloaks would here nothing otherwise, even if this included stripping his people of their glory and freedom. Freedom they obtained without need or want of outside assistance, until the day came when they were forced to pick a side by their former countrymen who sought nothing better than to take from them that which they earned and replace with what they wanted of them to be. Whereas the Empire at least gave Whiterun a choice and offered to protect as much of their culture and freedom's as could be done.
Ultimately, the man had no choice but to petition to rejoin the Empire because the Ultra Conservative Stormcloaks would here nothing otherwise, even if this included stripping his people of their glory and freedom. Freedom they obtained without need or want of outside assistance, until the day came when they were forced to pick a side by their former countrymen who sought nothing better than to take from them that which they earned and replace with what they wanted of them to be. Whereas the Empire at least gave Whiterun a choice and offered to protect as much of their culture and freedom's as could be done.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Stormcloaks are no different, you don't overthrow a so called oppressive Government to replace it with another. The Stormcloaks side of the argument benefits one race.
When it comes to saying women won't agree or agree with something, I tend to not go down that path. Not every woman is the same, nor is any man the same. Each has their own belief and identity.
What said a lot for me was the lack of any other races in the Stormcloak ranks. What was interesting with the Legion was when I came across a Redguard Quartermaster, Altmer/Dunmer/Breton/Nord/ Legates, many Nord and Imperial soldiers.
I consider the good of all, not the good of some. Stormcloaks benefit Nords, well sorry Stormcloaks, there are several other races living in Skyrim. There isn't a point of trying to go back to a past where Nords were the only major lot in Skyrim. Clinging to the past will only set Skyrim backwards, they're a province full of diverse populations in 4E 201.
I agree with that Skyrim can be independent, though not when it benefits some. The Empire is far from perfect, but at least all races are afforded the same protection. When Ulfric is Jarl of Windhelm it is noted that he doesn't aid non-Nord caravans if they come under attack. So Ulfric as High King will benefit you, if you're a Nord. If not then you're in the wrong part town.
The Nord Jarls have a duty of care of all in their hold. When they start picking and choosing who and what benefits from protection, especially when it comes down to race. That isn't the Skyrim for the Fourth Era, First Era perhaps.
I always found it a bit note worthy that the Stormcloaks say they will rid "Skyrim of Elves and their bloody Justiciars" At first I thought it meant the Thalmor, but he never said the Thalmor. He just said elves, then what made me rethink was when my Dark Elf was blamed for the great war and that if my kind rules Skyrim or the Nords, and I'm taking away his religion or some plops.
Seems to go against his character, especially since he was going on about how they will do whatever he wants. Chances are Ulfric will remain the same, he's been this way for many years now. It is who he is and who he has become.
He seemed to have once been a good guy, the Thalmor did their job well destroying what he once was, making what he is now.
"Ulfric... what have you done my old friend?"
There's a DrunkenMage saying, forced freedom is another form of oppression. Stormcloaks are fighting those who are not with them. They're forcing their ideology on the rest of the population.
Except American Revolution isn't anything like the Skyrim Civil War. It is a Civil War, they're fighting each other. American Revolution is very very different, I'm not saying you can't tell that. Just there have been many arguments of pro Stormcloaks going on about the American revolution.
