J
Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?
- Thread starter EvilCrazyCows
- Start date
Jorrvaskr
Ulfgar Bear-Arm
No, they're the better option in the Civil War. The Empire is weak, corrupt, unable or unwilling to protect their citizens. They've been on a decline for two hundred years.
J
Jeremius
Guest
And how are the Stormcloaks fighting the Thalmor right now? How are they going after the Thalmor in their domain, the world of cloak and dagger?
Anouck
Queen of Procrastination
No, it is not that black and white. This debate has been going on for over more than 700 pages and thousands upon thousands of posts. It is not that easy to dismiss one side - whether you're talking about Stormcloaks or Imperials. There is more to it.
J
Jeremius
Guest
Especially when you take into consideration that the Thalmor are "helping" the rebels with their presence and "inquisition" of Talos.
Jorrvaskr
Ulfgar Bear-Arm
Well Stormcloaks are fighting Justiciars in world encounters. How they're going against the cloak and dagger of the Thalmor? By removing the Empire's influence, their Jarls, and politics. Ulfric himself is not above using spies, as noted in his dialogue.
The Thalmor parties which only those connected with the Empire are invited, where the rich cozy up to the Thalmor. Even Tullius mentions "Look at what we're up against" the corruptability of Imperial/Imperial aligned Nobles. None of them care about the situation, many seek more coin.
Stormcloak Skyrim, has zero Thalmor influence within high positions, or positions of influence. It'll take awhile for the Thalmor to be able to resume operations, since their covert operations are handled by members within the Embassy. Unlike Cyrodiil during the reign of Titus Mede, the Aldmeri Dominion was right next door.
Nothing to do with "Black and white". The Empire's been on a decline, unable or unwilling to act. Their citizens aren't well protected anymore, and if they're taken by the Thalmor it's "Oh, who?" You're told to drop it, and let the matter go.
J
Jeremius
Guest
Here is something to read. Pay very close attention to the last line
They weren't really doing much to crack down on Talos Worship until the rebellion either. Just something to think about.
Anouck
Queen of Procrastination
It has everything to do with black and white. You come in here, and simply announce who is right and who is wrong. And I, as a person who has read arguments on both sides for months now, reply to you and say there is more to it.
Jorrvaskr
Ulfgar Bear-Arm
They're also "helping" the Empire, the Stormcloaks come under attack by Justiciars.
Subjecting innocents to torture, and slow deaths... 'Helping' wouldn't be the word, one would use. Inflaming tensions, but far from help.
The Thalmor Dossier, 'Indirect Stormcloak aid' which falls under keeping the Civil War going. The Thalmor do things for both sides, making sure neither side gains a clear advantage.
The rebellion is much more than the banning of Talos. The White-Gold Concordat was the final straw, not the reason. Many in Skyrim have been angry about the Empire, before the Great War occured, as noted in 'Skyrim's Rule' Talos ban, only made it stronger.
Jorrvaskr
Ulfgar Bear-Arm
'Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?'
I was answering the question, as one who also has read arguments on both sides. I was announcing my support.
Anouck
Queen of Procrastination
I know. But it's rather interesting to look into the deeper layers of the question.
I've learned a lot in favor of both sides, and some things that are quite disgusting.
Jorrvaskr
Ulfgar Bear-Arm
I know. But it's rather interesting to look into the deeper layers of the question.
I have looked at the layers. Are you assuming that I'm just walking in, and saying "Stormcloaks!" without thinking it through? Or without an understanding of the argument?
J
Jeremius
Guest
I do not see people saying they joined the Empire because someone got captured. Read the Dossier. Elenwen Tortured Ulfric, and just so happens to be in Skyrim the same time a rebellion against the Empire started. They say an imperial victory would harm their position in Skyrim, but make no mention of a Stormcloak victory doing such a thing.
Makes sense to me that the Stormcloaks are too blinded by their zealotry to see that they are tools for the Thalmor.
Anouck
Queen of Procrastination
I know. But it's rather interesting to look into the deeper layers of the question.
I have looked at the layers. Are you assuming that I'm just walking in, and saying "Stormcloaks!" without thinking it through? Or without an understanding of the argument?
No, I am saying that there are a lot of people in here who know lots about lore. And I've doubted my views many times after reading some of the stuff in here. What it all boils down to, is that one side (despite the Thalmor) cannot be condemned this easy.
Jorrvaskr
Ulfgar Bear-Arm
Maybe because Stormcloak victory, means they have no position in Skyrim? The wish to avoid a Stormcloak victory, because they'll be forced to remove their operations. Which will harm them too, having to leave the province, while their cloak and dagger is done from the Embassy.
Elenwen was appointed after her predecessor failed in regards to Esbern.
Yet it is Imperials who believe themselves superior, in culture and religion. The Empire has been tools of the Thalmor for a long time, first with Hammerfell and then with the Talos ban for Skyrim.
Cyrodiil is systamatically pissing off those who surround them. The Thalmor took Valenwood by force from the Empire, yet they were unprepared for the Thalmor threat. Even Emperor's were being warned by their trusted Penitus Oculatus. Which shows the Mede Dynasty was politically weak, the only reason Titus Mede was crowned Emperor, was the Prime Minister convinced the Elder Council.
Mede and the Council, (I should just say Council, as they run the show) can't spare Tullius manpower, but they offer Maven Black-Briar Imperial soldiers to protect bottles of Mead. That makes sense.
J
Jeremius
Guest
They do not mention that or anything about their position in Stormcloak skyrim. Only that it should be avoided, almost as an afterthought.
What? They have all their men on the border, and they do not see the issue with Skyrim. The Thalmor are in it because they need the Civil War, and the rebellion is the tool they are using to get the time they need to prepare, albeit that Ulfric and his rebels are little more than a blip on Mede's radar and they only send one man to deal with them. Why? because Mede and the Empire are getting ready for round two, and need those soldiers. Ulfric himself is more afraid of the "weak and corrupt" Empire, refusing to attack Solitude if the Dark Botherhood quests
involving Vittoria Vici or the Emperor himself
Jorrvaskr
Ulfgar Bear-Arm
They have no position in Stormcloak Skyrim. The Thalmor are removed and no longer operate within it's borders. All of their cloak and dagger was conducted from the embassy, which they no longer have.
How is that an afterthought? Being killed and executed if they do not leave the province.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Regarding_Your_Loss
They're not all on the border. The Empire can't even control the mercenaries under their employ, Cyrodiil is still problematic... even with majority of the Imperial Army there. Their own mercenaries are raiding trade shipments, cities were erupting into violence and Cheydinhal was still lost around 4E 200.
How can the Empire protect Skyrim, when they can't even protect citizens in an major city, close to the Imperial capital itself.
Stormcloak rebellion is more than a 'blip' since the Emperor cancelled his visit due to the rebellion, not wanting to involve himself. Ulfric isn't afraid, when he refuses to attack Solitude it's due to the simple fact of not wanting all out war with the Empire. Ulfric's goals are not war with Cyrodiil, but independent Skyrim. Besides, Ulfric also says "As much as I'd like to kill the man, myself" that isn't fear.
I'm sure the Empire is busy, with things down in Cyrodiil not going well. Has to be something, for citizens to escape to Skyrim instead of remaining in the heart of that 'safe' Empire.
"I guess down in Cyrodiil people have other things to worry about."
"I escaped fighting in Cyrodiil only to have it track me down again in Skyrim."
J
Jeremius
Guest
Why don't they mention it then? How come the only mention of a possibility of aStormcloak victory is in the Dossier and says that it should merely be avoided, along with the Thalmor carefully managing indirect aid to the rebels? Maybe because they know that the Empire could have, and would have crushed the rebellion had the Thalmor not been sending people running to the Stormcloaks because of their influence?
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
When you side with the Stormcloaks Ondolemar from Marakrth dies (from the invasion) and the thalmor that generally roam the roads with a captive prisoners seems to have vanished into thin air whereas if you side with the Empire they're still there, and Ondolemar is still very much alive, only if you play as a staunch Empire supporter.
Ulfric has done more to fight the Thalmor in his homeland then the Empire, and I don't care what the Thalmor dossier says regarding to him. I find it hard to believe that Ulfric is secretly working for them after getting tortured by them for so long.
The Empire is only interested in making money off of Skyrim, and nothing more.
Jorrvaskr
Ulfgar Bear-Arm
An illogical stance, they lose their ability to remain in Skyrim. Therefor it would harm their overall position in Skyrim, cause they'd have none.
The Empire is weak, Ulfric says so, and Tullius says what Ulfric says about the Empire is true. Even Imperial supporters doubt the Empire would do well in a war against the Aldmeri Dominion.
"I suspect the treaty that ended the war was just a tactic to buy time so the Thalmor can rebuild their armies. I hope I'm wrong. I'm not sure the Empire can afford another war."
The Thalmor are sending people to join the Stormcloaks, indeed. But what is the Empire doing to stop it? They know the Thalmor are behind it, they know the Thalmor are causing trouble. They are unable or unwilling to bring the Thalmor to heel. Which once again, brings up not protecting their citizens.
If the Empire was strong, this rebellion would have never been needed. If the Empire was willing to put it's own citizens, who have bled for them, as a higher priority... The Imperial Legion has authority over Justiciar actions, yet they're not willing to exercise that right due to "Political incident" people are dying, being dragged off in the night. The Empire doesn't want to cause problems, therefor doing nothing is the best course of action?
The Thalmor are infiltrating the Empire, causing disruptions, the White-Gold Concordat grants them free-reigns across Imperial holdings. Cyrodiil is erupting into violence, losing control of major cities over the recent years during peace-time. Majority of the Imperial army is stationed in Cyordiil and they can't even keep order?
Not only that, General Tullius has the nerve to say without the Legion the provinces would fall into lawlessness and barbarism? The irony is that Cyrodiil's own people were escaping into Skyrim for safety...
The Empire is dragging Skyrim down, still clinging on with the silly notion that they're 'needed' to keep order. Where was the Empire when Wayrest fell? Where was the Legion when Markarth (The source of much of Skyrim's wealth) was taken? Where was this much needed law and order when city after city erupted into violence in the Heartlands themselves?
The Empire cares for one thing, Cyrodiil. They were willing to abandon Hammerfell during the war, if it wasn't due to the actions of a General (Who went against his orders) discharged many invalids, the Aldmeri may of owned much more of Hammerfell and the Redguards may not have won. They turned a blind eye to everyone when the Imperial City was threatened.
"When the Aldmeri Dominion invaded the Imperial City, the Legion all but turned a blind eye to the other provinces."
So why should people 'follow' an Empire that is willing to throw them to the wolves, and use them as bargaining chips when they're weak. Hammerfell took the worst of the invasion during the war, which makes "White-Gold Concordat was needed for twenty six years" laughable.
Just how weak is the Empire? Cyrodiil gets hit by the smallest of the main armies, but they needed the White-Gold Concordat while Hammerfell didn't. I'd wager the Elder Council pressured Titus II into it, they handle legislation, treaties and laws.
"We're fighting because we're done bleeding for an Empire that won't bleed for us."
