Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[NENALATA]

I gave DMage 'Winner' because you could probably answer about 15 - 20 Stormcloak questions\rants with just that one post.

He should probably take that and post it in some special, permanent area of the Internet. Like a time capsule sort of.

 

[Jeremius]

First Bold: Then why can't you see that the Thalmor want the Rebellion to continue, and weaken humanity as a whole in the process?

Second Bold: Oh, right, you love the rebels, and can't see that the rebels are the tools here.

I don't love the rebels. I can understand their cause and their overwhelming frustration at what their politicians are doing to them due to the fact that they didn't win the war due to bad intelligence on their side.

I know exactly what the Stormcloaks are feeling and have to deal with because I'm in the same booth as they are. Both my local and federal government is essentially threatening me with prison time if I decided to take a certain route to a medical treatment that can help levitate some of my medical conditions.

The worship of Talos is the Nordic way of life. The Thalmor knew that this would happen, and knew that people would react over the ban of Talos. That's why they forced the Emperor to ban the worship of Talos, to get people angry at the Empire. How exactly is the rebels considered a tool when the Empire is just as much as a tool as the rebels? If the Empire was smart they would've separate the provinces that they rule with a guarantee treaty of being allies. With High Rock, Hammerfell and Skyrim have their own rulers the Thalmor would have absolutely no jurisdiction over them due to the fact that it's no longer the province of the Empire. The only country that the Thalmor can legally harass is Cyrodiil.

Only in Skyrim, where the Thalmor are focusing their "efforts" do we hear of any rebellion. Skyrim happens to be the same place that BOTH Elenwen and Ulfric happen to be.

the Empire is not "too stupid to let Skyrim go" with the "promise" of some treaty. The Thalmor are using the rebellion as a distraction because they know that without direct intervention, the Empire would have won, and will win.

All the WGC was, was a way for the Thalmor to trick every human race into fighting, just like they did with Skyrim.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The only country that the Thalmor can legally harass is Cyrodiil.

Feel like this should be addressed. Do you think the Thalmor do things legally? They're skilled at espionage, and infiltration. They didn't have a legal document granting them access into Cyrodiil around 4E 40, yet they were there causing issues.

The Empire has a good chance of winning, just look how desperate the Thalmor are. They had to go to Solstheim to try and get weapons. They actually pay you for Stalhrim weapons and armor.

If you convince him to leave, "Very well, you have convinced me. We will depart the island shortly and seek our weapons elsewhere."

They're desperate for weapons and armor to use against the Empire in the next war. Don't you see why the Civil War is needed, to distract the Empire to give the Thalmor time to regain strength.

 

[Jeremius]

The only country that the Thalmor can legally harass is Cyrodiil.

Feel like this should be addressed. Do you think the Thalmor do things legally? They're skilled at espionage, and infiltration. They didn't have a legal document granting them access into Cyrodiil around 4E 40, yet they were there causing issues.

The Empire has a good chance of winning, just look how desperate the Thalmor are. They had to go to Solstheim to try and get weapons. They actually pay you for Stalhrim weapons and armor.

If you convince him to leave, "Very well, you have convinced me. We will depart the island shortly and seek our weapons elsewhere."

They're desperate for weapons and armor to use against the Empire in the next war. Don't you see why the Civil War is needed, to distract the Empire to give the Thalmor time to regain strength.

The problem I have is that the rebels (most of them, maybe all) don't even know that their little war is helping the Thalmor. The Empire seems to be the only military group smart enough to understand that.

 

[Raijin]

Feel like this should be addressed. Do you think the Thalmor do things legally? They're skilled at espionage, and infiltration. They didn't have a legal document granting them access into Cyrodiil around 4E 40, yet they were there causing issues.

The Empire has a good chance of winning, just look how desperate the Thalmor are. They had to go to Solstheim to try and get weapons. They actually pay you for Stalhrim weapons and armor.

If you convince him to leave, "Very well, you have convinced me. We will depart the island shortly and seek our weapons elsewhere."

They're desperate for weapons and armor to use against the Empire in the next war. Don't you see why the Civil War is needed, to distract the Empire to give the Thalmor time to regain strength.

To be fair the Empire is just as desperate as the Thalmor. They sent over a spy to Markarth to infiltrate Cindah Mine, and to essentially take over it so they can have 100% access the silver that is being produced in the mine.

Both parties want to look their very best for the incoming war. I don't find anything wrong with other team desperately finding resource that will better their chance of winning. Had the Empire found the rare Stalhrim material in Solstheim they would be station there to be collecting as many weapons and armor as possible.

 

[Raijin]

Thought I'd give my Imperial supporting friends here a treat My new Altmer that is currently a solider for the Thalmor, but after a while he finds out his reason for being Dragonborn, and that the gods had sent him down to Tamriel for a specific reason to which he founds out later in his life.

After a while he betrays his duties as a Thalmor solider and starts aiding the Imperial Legion. He becomes the most wanted fugitive to the Aldmeri Dominion because of his betrayal.

 

[Jeremius]

Feel like this should be addressed. Do you think the Thalmor do things legally? They're skilled at espionage, and infiltration. They didn't have a legal document granting them access into Cyrodiil around 4E 40, yet they were there causing issues.

The Empire has a good chance of winning, just look how desperate the Thalmor are. They had to go to Solstheim to try and get weapons. They actually pay you for Stalhrim weapons and armor.

If you convince him to leave, "Very well, you have convinced me. We will depart the island shortly and seek our weapons elsewhere."

They're desperate for weapons and armor to use against the Empire in the next war. Don't you see why the Civil War is needed, to distract the Empire to give the Thalmor time to regain strength.

To be fair the Empire is just as desperate as the Thalmor. They sent over a spy to Markarth to infiltrate Cindah Mine, and to essentially take over it so they can have 100% access the silver that is being produced in the mine.

Really? you are bringing this up again? When it was bashed into the void with Sithis, by DrukenMage?

Both parties want to look their very best for the incoming war. I don't find anything wrong with other team desperately finding resource that will better their chance of winning. Had the Empire found the rare Stalhrim material in Solstheim they would be station there to be collecting as many weapons and armor as possible.

I have nothing to say to this, so here are some dancing ninja turtles:

 

[Raijin]

Jeremius, Oh quit with your obvious deep worship of DrukenMage already. He voiced his opinion and it must be true whereas if someone voiced their opinions differently they must be wrong, is that how it goes around here?

 

[Jeremius]

Jeremius, Oh quit with your obvious deep worship of DrukenMage already. He voiced his opinion and it must be true whereas if someone voiced their opinions differently they must be wrong, is that how it goes around here?

I do not even like DrunkenMage. I just do not see the world in Stormcloak, Stormcloak, Stormcloak like you do. I see the world in a "we need to do this" kind of way.

 

[DrunkenMage]

To be fair the Empire is just as desperate as the Thalmor. They sent over a spy to Markarth to infiltrate Cindah Mine, and to essentially take over it so they can have 100% access the silver that is being produced in the mine.

They don't mention the silver, but the prison. It's controlled by Stormcloak supporters, where some of the most dangerous in the Reach are imprisoned.

The Empire already has access to the silver, wagons from Markarth are sent to Solitude at times. Tullius sent the Agent for one purpose, which is what she mentions.

On my life, I won't allow a group of Stormcloak sympathizers to own the prison to the most notorious criminals of the Reach. They say no one escapes. Why? Is it really that secure?

Both parties want to look their very best for the incoming war. I don't find anything wrong with other team desperately finding resource that will better their chance of winning. Had the Empire found the rare Stalhrim material in Solstheim they would be station there to be collecting as many weapons and armor as possible.

The Empire had been stationed on that island for over a hundred years, even had a presence until it was handed over to the Dunmer. They know a lot about Stalhrim.

It shows the Thalmor are desperate for better weapons and armor. The Empire isn't desperate where they need to kidnap a smith to forge them gear. The Thalmor for all their boasting and big talk about 'allowing' the Empire to live, seem to be trying to find better weapons and gear to face the Legion with.

During the war, when the Aldmeri and Empire clashed and the Legions were able to counter attack, they did well.

The Imperial Legions under General Decianus met them outside Skaven in a bloody and indecisive clash. Decianus withdrew and left Arannelya in possession of Skaven, but the Aldmeri were too weakened to continue their advance.

In the end, the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed. The Emperor's decision to withdraw from the Imperial City in 4E 174 was bloodily vindicated. Lord Naarifin was kept alive for thirty-three days, hanging from the White-Gold tower.

The Thalmor no longer have the surprise element. They didn't even achieve the expansion they wanted or perhaps maybe needed during the Great War, in trying to take Hammerfell.

With the Legions at the borders, they'll be hit with everything the Empire has.

 

[NENALATA]

It shows the Thalmor are desperate for better weapons and armor. The Empire isn't desperate where they need to kidnap a smith to forge them gear. The Thalmor for all their boasting and big talk about 'allowing' the Empire to live, seem to be trying to find better weapons and gear to face the Legion with.

While I agree with the above post for the most part, don't forget the Thalmor use lots of Elven Armor and Weapons. An Elven Dagger has the equivalent damage of an Cyrodil / Skyrim Steel Sword.

In addition to this, the Aldmeri Army also uses Elven bows and GLASS WEAPONS / Armor.

I think the reason the Thalmor are in Solstheim is to bring back ancient weapons and artifacts for study, much the same as Ancano's reason for being at Winterhold.

It's unlikely the Thalmor are using a 'bake sale' to get resources for the troops. More likely they're looking for way to strengthen what they already have. Or ways to cheaply reproduce something more effective.

 

[NENALATA]

With the Legions at the borders, they'll be hit with everything the Empire has.

Also, I'm for whatever reason usually the one telling people what truth is, so I see an opportunity here.

It's very unlikely the Empire will attack first. Nothing is impossible. However, assuming the Empire survives the Civil War, her resources will be diminished. The Empire might be able to somehow repair infrastructure and at least get life back to normal, however the Civil War and the advances of the Thalmor have shifted the Empire's weight around in different directions.

Killing the Emperor may be a mistake after all. However, the choice is to let the Emperor live and take the for certain road to death, or, kill him and take a chance at someone else steering the ship.

Someone with a new vision, someone not obligated to the WGC and not emotionally restrained from TMII's shameful decisions at the end of the Great War. Someone with no blood on their hands from the Civil War maybe... I dunno. Finding such a person and getting this to work takes lots of time. Not sure the Empire has that much time left.

Or...

Perhaps the Elder Council will fail at this task and someone like Gen Tullius will take over as interm Emperor. A Military Emperor would fit nicely. And don't count this out as a solution. This actually happened several times during the Fall of Rome. The problem wasn't the Warlord General, the problem was with, as Drunken Mage had said earlier, with the Elder Council, the Senate.

And so, the General would save everyone, some accepted the title of Emperor, others retired... the Roman politicians had them all assassinated anyways. Much like with what had happened to TMII. Although, I'm still in agreement he's got to go. There again, I could be wrong. It would depend on the intentions of the Elder Council. Hmmm...

Of course Potema is destroyed, nearly all of TMII's Admin is wiped out... including him. It leaves everything wide open for another Emperor\Empress... and seeing how the Dragonborn is of the line of Tiber Septim... You could have a new Imperial Dynasty under the Dragonborn, a Septim would rule the Empire yet again. His/Her offspring would have little Dragonborns running around.

So in a way... if you accept this possible solution, it in essence means the Stormcloaks are completely wrong but don't realize it. If the Dragonborn chooses to save the Empire and there is no Emperor.... then... in some ways the Dragonborn IS in charge by default. Elder Council wouldn't like that but, it's plausible. TMII dies leaving the Empire forever blameless, Ulfric dies and the infection in Skyrim is dead along with him... Then the Dragonborn whose already a Legate in the Imp Army stakes claim to the Imperial throne.

I've always wondered about that. How, just *how* could you being an Septim heir allow Ulfric to dismantle the Empire which is yours by birthright. Never once understood it. Doesn't seem natural. I guess unless the Dragonborn would feel the Empire was too corrupt and needed to be dismantled, which is fine but probably a very bad idea with the Thalmor waiting to drop bombs.

If I was in that position I would say, "Let's see if the Empire can win this next war and then we'll see." That's fair. I mean, the Thalmors are going to try and 'dismantle' it anyways. lolz If the Thalmor can't bring the Empire down next time then nothing else need be said.

 

[DrunkenMage]

While I agree with the above post for the most part, don't forget the Thalmor use lots of Elven Armor and Weapons. An Elven Dagger has the equivalent damage of an Cyrodil / Skyrim Steel Sword.

It's not the weapon that does the best, but the tactics and skill of those that hold it. You have to remember the Imperial Army lore wise doesn't just use steel, but use all forms of weapons. They're also buying elven weapons from Black Marsh apparently.

In addition to this, the Aldmeri Army also uses Elven bows and GLASS WEAPONS / Armor.

Only Thalmor Agents seem to have access to such things, and they seem to be more above the standard soldier. Like an elite class of protection. Although the ones on Solstheim wear leather armor.

The Empire also employs thousands of mercenaries, whom all use wide ranges of gear, from steel to ebony.

The Great War is an example, if the Aldmeri army used all these things, that are so much better than what the Empire has. Why'd they lose a main army, and have their other main army retreating at full speed across Hammerfell, suffering heavy losses.

Weapons and equipment are nice, but it comes down to tactics and skill.

I think the reason the Thalmor are in Solstheim is to bring back ancient weapons and artifacts for study, much the same as Ancano's reason for being at Winterhold.

They want weapons and armor, it's not so much searching for artifacts to study. The way the Thalmor mentions they will seek weapons elsewhere. They intend to use them.

Ancano's reason there was to spy on the College, report back to his superiors. Not to study artifacts, but to keep an eye on the Mages.

It's unlikely the Thalmor are using a 'bake sale' to get resources for the troops. More likely they're looking for way to strengthen what they already have. Or ways to cheaply reproduce something more effective.

You can sell them to him if you persuade him. He wasn't originally there to buy them, hence why he kidnapped the Blacksmith.

 

[NENALATA]

Weapons and equipment are nice, but it comes down to tactics and skill.

Yeah that's right. Weapons can be taken away from you too. Or turned against you.

 

[Raijin]

I do not even like DrunkenMage. I just do not see the world in Stormcloak, Stormcloak, Stormcloak like you do. I see the world in a "we need to do this" kind of way.

OK why do you hate DrunkenMage? We think differently regarding to Tamriel politics, but i don't hate the man

It's unlikely the Thalmor are using a 'bake sale' to get resources for the troops. More likely they're looking for way to strengthen what they already have. Or ways to cheaply reproduce something more effective.

Like this?

 

[Jeremius]

I do not even like DrunkenMage. I just do not see the world in Stormcloak, Stormcloak, Stormcloak like you do. I see the world in a "we need to do this" kind of way.

OK why do you hate DrunkenMage? We think differently regarding to Tamriel politics, but i don't hate the man

I do not hate DrunkenMage, I just had lots disagreements in the past with him/her (can never tell gender on the internet).

Most of those stemmed from the fact that I said I could RP/come up with a reason why any character that is not a Nord would side with the rebels, even though I probably would not do so.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Shhhh it is she but we use he at her request...Hahaha totally

 

[Raijin]

They don't mention the silver, but the prison. It's controlled by Stormcloak supporters, where some of the most dangerous in the Reach are imprisoned.

The Empire already has access to the silver, wagons from Markarth are sent to Solitude at times. Tullius sent the Agent for one purpose, which is what she mentions.

On my life, I won't allow a group of Stormcloak sympathizers to own the prison to the most notorious criminals of the Reach. They say no one escapes. Why? Is it really that secure?

I'm pretty sure that it was more than just dangerous prisoners that they were thinking of and who are those most notorious criminals that she was speaking about? The Forsworn? Yeah they're criminals for fighting to regain back their region that the Empire had stolen from them by hiring Ulfric and his Talos worshiping men to take it back. The reach was quite peaceful under Forsworn control for 2 years up until the Empire forced their influences.

The Empire had been stationed on that island for over a hundred years, even had a presence until it was handed over to the Dunmer. They know a lot about Stalhrim.

Yet the Empire would rather stick to their steel made armor rather than to take an advantage of the Stalhrim material that can betterment of their overall armory and weapons.

Compare the Imperial legion armor http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Steel#Imperial_Light_Armor
to the armor that is made out of Stalhrim http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Dragonborn:Stalhrim

Look at the weight and the ratings of both. It's safe to say that they do not know a whole lot about this material.

It shows the Thalmor are desperate for better weapons and armor. The Empire isn't desperate where they need to kidnap a smith to forge them gear. The Thalmor for all their boasting and big talk about 'allowing' the Empire to live, seem to be trying to find better weapons and gear to face the Legion with.

Why isn't the Empire desperate enough to betterment their weapons and armor? Arrogance do not win wars. Do they really have confidence over their steel made armor that they think they can use to win the second round of this great war? If I was the Emperor I would be doing exactly what the Thalmor are doing and try to discover new materials to use for my armies because I owe it to them, since they're willing to risk their lives to keep me on the throne.

 

[Jeremius]

They don't mention the silver, but the prison. It's controlled by Stormcloak supporters, where some of the most dangerous in the Reach are imprisoned.

The Empire already has access to the silver, wagons from Markarth are sent to Solitude at times. Tullius sent the Agent for one purpose, which is what she mentions.

On my life, I won't allow a group of Stormcloak sympathizers to own the prison to the most notorious criminals of the Reach. They say no one escapes. Why? Is it really that secure?

I'm pretty sure that it was more than just dangerous prisoners that they were thinking of and who are those most notorious criminals that she was speaking about? The Forsworn? Yeah they're criminals for fighting to regain back their region that the Empire had stolen from them by hiring Ulfric and his Talos worshiping men to take it back. The reach was quite peaceful under Forsworn control for 2 years up until the Empire forced their influences.

The Forsworn "stole" it first. It was not theirs to begin with. and it was Ingmund's family, not the Empire, that hired Ulfric and his boys. I doubt the Empire had any knowledge, considering the reachmen were trying to get the Empire to recognize "their kingdom" when that mess happened.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Look at the weight and the ratings of both. It's safe to say that they do not know a whole lot about this material.

Don't take ratings for granted. It's obvious Stalhrim is better than steel orthe other "mainstream" gear, but those ratings are entirely meant for gameplay and not really useful.
In the game for example an arrow stuck in your throat doesn't hurt you much. The greatest gear so far doesn't seem to protect the face yet so lorewise you'd be dead.

I don't really believe that the Empire knows about Stalhrim, but they haven't been desperate enough to run around begging, kidnapping or spying for it.