Companions VS Thieves Guild VS College of Winterhold

[Psiberzerker]

Well I'm speaking about lore, not game mechanics, which are not indicative of the story. Ex: Tiber Septim didn't have a 60 second cool down on his Thu'um. I'm considering Skyrim as the battleground, not some arbitrary little arena in the game, not a random dungeon, the real thing.

As to your insights as to my preference, I really don't have much of one. I'm the listener, harbinger, arch mage, and thieve's guild master. I'm a werewolf, sword swinger, mage, and a thief. I enjoyed all of the guilds (I especially loved the college's librarian, lol), but the thieve's guild annoyed me because they always seemed to favor the winners and pick on the peasants and 'little people'.

I included the dark brotherhood because I'm considering Skyrim as the battlefield, and I'm considering the inhabitants as well. The thieve's guild would win the influence, and has in the story, of all of the cities and dark under workings of ruling. And as to my point as how the College of Winterhold isn't a battling group; they aren't! They send the Dohvahkiin to do all of their dangerous work, which is always research and not battling, and an entire wave of their apprentices died from minor dangers in their research (see Lost Apprentices). They don't train for battle in the Battlespire, where battlemages (a specific faction) reside, they are not battlemages!

So regardless of all of your opinions, you can't discredit mine as it is perfectly valid.

Sure, fine, but if your only criteria is the Lore, and who's Battle Ready, then Companions. They're the Warrior Guild, for lack of a better term, they exist for the sole purpose of Battle. Not sneaking into places for profit, or esoteric research, but killing stuff, all over skyrim, for fun, and profit. I wasn't attacking your Opinion, just your logic. If battle readiness applies to the CoWH, then why doesn't it apply to the TG? Here's what the lore says on the subject, It Would Never happen. The Morag Tong would go against the DBH because of competition, you could stretch that to the TG, but there's no precedent for the Fighters', Thieves', and Mages' guilds throwing a winner takes all deathmatch to finally prove once, and for all who's the better guild. Without a story behind it, which Bethesda has yet to write, it's as lore friendly as Deadliest Warrior: Spartans vs Ninjas vs Hogwarts.

And finally, my sole argument wasn't based on Game Mechanics. At first, I was rooting for the Companions, until I did the math, and realized the College has a decided advantage of numbers Before they start summoning re-enforcements from Oblivion. My second position was based on Experience, I've gone to Battle with the Mages, (only some of them) and the Companions, but not the Thieve's guild, because they don't go to war like that. The only fair yardstick is Dragons, because they're the only enemy I've fought with both the factions I have the requisite experience with to form an opinion. The Wizards win, because they just deal more damage faster, despite fielding just a fraction of their ranks, and not being "Battlemages."

 

[Rhubarb&Custard]

I just found this video, dunno if anyone has posted it, it has the DB in as well, I think some of you may be pleased at the results..

 

[MushroomGenius]

I just found this video, dunno if anyone has posted it, it has the DB in as well, I think some of you may be pleased at the results..

Word?

There is actually a video that holds all of the Guilds/factions fighting each other, and the College wins. And besides, the college has magic that renders the armor useless, and they also cast a flesh spell for a decent amount of protection. PLUS they can raise their fallen foes to fight for them.
Heres the link of the video:

Word.

Just playing.. but it's been posted back on page 2.

 

[Rhubarb&Custard]

Word?



Word.

Just playing.. but it's been posted back on page 2.

That's what I get for not reading the whole thread.

 

[DarkEastwood]

The Thieves Guild has the numbers, the Companions have the experience, and the College has a the questionable/potential power.

The thing about the Thieves Guild, is it solely depends on the location and the speed of the battle. If it's a battle in a room like the Flagoon, they'd likely lose pretty quickly. If it's from their respective bases, they'd stand a very good chance. They'd probably use guerilla tactics and sabotage each group.

The mages have different niches, that each compliment each other. A restoration lady is incredibly helpful, as well as all these other schools of magic. If they had time to make a decent organized plan, the battle would be theirs.

The Companions basically have the default. If the mages plan screw up somehow, the Companions would get a victory. If the Thieves Guild didn't have the proper terms to the battle, the Companions would win.

My vote goes for the mages, since they could easily form a decent plan, that could counter anything the other two guilds have.

 

[VonCrown]

Sadly, the Thieves Guild has a non-killing attitude, so they are already gimped here.

As the Mage, I don't see them bloodthirsty either.

Now if you asked of the Dark Brotherhood against the Companion, that IS a war already: some DB are Vampires and some Companions are Werewolf.

My take is that without Dawnguard, Werewolf (Companion) would win because Vampires pre dawnguard are not that powerful.

Dawnguard, a slight edge goes to the Vampire Lords (DB), if we are considering then that Vampires member of DB can become Vampire Lords.

Last thing: those 2 factions goes on war VERY differently. Companions has a "rush into battle" approach, when DB takes cares of the people BEFORE the battle.

Can the Companion prevent the assassination of their faction even before the Battle begins? That is the question to answer.

Haven't read anything after this post, so other may have said it- One member of the brotherhood in skyrim is a vampire. And one is also a werewolf. So they're more versatile than you give them credit for, but also, still only one vampire.

 

[i K33L n0085]

still only one vampire.

Not if you include me. Those companions would be pissing themselves to death if they saw me in my vampire lord form.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

Applying the thieves guild to this is rather stupid. Simply because the thieves guild doesn't kill. The Dark Brotherhood would be who you need in this kind of situation. But with the three presented groups I would say Collage of Winterhold or the Companions depending on if the companions laid a sudden siege on the Collage of not.

This is because if the Collage was prepared they could use conjuration to summon assistance making their lower numbers less a hindrance until the mages themselves fell and raise the dead turning the powerful werewolves of the Circle against their friends as well as raise fallen mages to keep on fighting. They could use illusion spells to turn the Companions against one another, making their own brute strength, combat experience and numbers work against them, as well as hide with invisibility spells to escape danger and use detect life to prevent themselves from being surprised and hunt down the Companions. They would have alteration magic to paralyze the Companions and to protect themselves from harm. Restoration would allow them to heal themselves and each other as they fought as well as help block arrows. And destruction to weaken them with frost spells until they were unable to fight back. With this kind of flexibility a prepared Collage would come out on top.

However if the Companions suddenly attacked without warning and in numbers the Collage would fall brutally and swiftly.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

We don't have the history behind why the DB and the Thieve guild went down that much though.

Maybe they were becoming too powerful and the High Kind decided to wipe them out by pure force. A little bit like what the King of France, the most powerful monarch of that time, being jealous of the wealth and power of the Templar, did when he ordered the pope to wipe out all the Templar outposts in europe on Friday the 13th...

Thalmer wiped the DBH out mostly from what I remember reading in the in-game books. The thieves guild got to its state by their unnatural luck from Nocturnal vanishing and so they were caught more often, failed to complete jobs, etc. at such a heightened rate until it crippled them and they all but completely disbanded. Both of these are explained in-game.

 

[VonCrown]

Not if you include me. Those companions would be pissing themselves to death if they saw me in my vampire lord form.

Well, if we're counting people beyond canon npcs, then the college of winterhold would also have a rather powerful vampire on their side. Rather beside the point, though.

Also, in regards to the college, Wuunferth the Unliving has a line where he specifically states he is a College member in good standing. It's not a stretch to assume they'd have most if not all of the court mages backing them if they were at war.

 

[Psiberzerker]

Applying the thieves guild to this is rather stupid. Simply because the thieves guild doesn't kill. The Dark Brotherhood would be who you need in this kind of situation. But with the three presented groups I would say Collage of Winterhold or the Companions depending on if the companions laid a sudden siege on the Collage of not.

This is because if the Collage was prepared they could use conjuration to summon assistance making their lower numbers less a hindrance until the mages themselves fell and raise the dead turning the powerful werewolves of the Circle against their friends as well as raise fallen mages to keep on fighting. They could use illusion spells to turn the Companions against one another, making their own brute strength, combat experience and numbers work against them, as well as hide with invisibility spells to escape danger and use detect life to prevent themselves from being surprised and hunt down the Companions. They would have alteration magic to paralyze the Companions and to protect themselves from harm. Restoration would allow them to heal themselves and each other as they fought as well as help block arrows. And destruction to weaken them with frost spells until they were unable to fight back. With this kind of flexibility a prepared Collage would come out on top.

However if the Companions suddenly attacked without warning and in numbers the Collage would fall brutally and swiftly.

The College has strength of numbers, more that 3-2 on the Companions, and that's before they start summoning Atronachs. Wouldn't matter if it were a "Surprise Attack," with Faralda out front, they wouldn't make it over the bridge.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

***SPOILERS FOR MULTIPLE QUEST-LINES***

Okay I have read this all over several times so I decided we need playing field to judge by. Let us make a few assumptions about them all in general. First of all we are going to assume these are all real people and not AIs, second we are going to assume they all are at "end game" condition (meaning after you've done all their quests and side-quests with the appropriate missing or dead members, or changes in members capabilities), third we are going to assume the Dragonborn has traveled beyond Skyrim never to return to remove an INSANE variable from this mess, forth we are going to assume that the Dragonborn wiped out the Dark Brotherhood completely instead of joining them, and lastly we are assuming the Civil War was ended peacefully and neutrally via Seasons Unending conditions.

Now I am going to use city loyalty to make some judgments here so I'll list the loyalties of each city:

Cities Loyal to Stormcloaks:

• Markarth
• Dawnstar
• Winterhold
• Windhelm

Cities Loyal to the Empire:

• Riften
• Falkreath
• Morthal
• Solitude

Whiterun is neutral with Vignar Grey-Mane in power (Done for reasons later explained).

Now I will explain the state of each of the three factions involved as well as their assets and the assets of their allies

Collage of Winterhold:

Members:

• Mirabelle Ervine
• Colette Marence (restoration specialist)
• Drevis Neloren (illusion specialist)
• Faralda (destruction specialist)
• Phinis Gestor (conjuration specialist)
• Sergius Turrianus
• Tolfdir (alteration specialist)
• Enthir
• Nirya
• Urag gro-Shub
• Brelyna Maryon
• J'zargo
• Onmund

Allies:

To determing their allies is difficult. For the sake of convence I am going to give them the Court-Wizards of every Hold as well as any non-hostile magic users who have not specifically stated they are opposed to the Collage of Winterhold.​

Assets:

• A wide variety of magics with many effects.
• The ability to raise fallen enemies from the dead.
• Summon deadra to help in battle.
• Ability to heal themselves and each other.
• Able to paralyze enemies.
• Able to turn invisible.
• Able to lessen damage through flesh spells.
• Able to detect enemies through magic.
• Able to burn enemies.
• Able to tire out enemies through frost spells.
• Able to trick enemies into fighting one another.
• Able to make enemies stop attacking.
• Access to difficult to find items through Enthir.

Allies Assets:.

• All previously listed assets (Not including Enthir)
• Political influence in the courts of each hold.

Further Notes:

All non-specialists are going to be given the assumption they now all adept and under spells even if they don't in game. All specialists are going to be given the assumption that they know all the spells master and under in their school of magic as well as all adept and under spells of the other schools.​

Companions:

Members:

• Aela the Huntress (werewolf)
• Farkas (cured werewolf)
• Vilkas (cured werewolf)
• Athis
• Njada Stonearm
• Ria
• Torvar
• Vignar Gray-Mane (Jarl of Whiterun)
• Eorlund Gray-Mane (Blacksmith of Skyforged Steel)

Allies:

The Companions would have the Whiterun Guard backing them up through Vignar being Jarl of Whiterun. As well they would have the backing of many of the citizens of Skyrim through reputation.​

​

Assets:

• Aela can become a werewolf and rampage through enemy lines.
• The high quality of Skyforged Steel gives them better than average weaponry.
• Experienced combatants.
• Political influence throughout Skyrim and especially the Hold of Whiterun through Vignar's position as Jarl.

Allies Assets:

• Highly trained guards would make for a army of professional soldiers.
• The common citizen of Skyrim may help the Companions by joining them in battlle out of respect or by assisting by providing food and shelter.

Further Notes:

The companions have been given Vignar Grey-Mane as Jarl to balance with Maven Black-Briar's position.​

Thieves Guild:

Members:

• Arnskar Ember-Master
• Brynjolf
• Delvin Mallory
• Dirge
• Herluin Lothaire
• Syndus
• Tonilia
• Vanryth Gatharian
• Vekel the Man
• Vex
• Cynric Endell
• Etienne Rarnis
• Garthar
• Niruin
• Ravyn Imyan
• Rune
• Sapphire
• Thrynn
• Vipir the Fleet
• Maul
• Karliah

Allies:

• Khajiit Caravans
• Maven Black Briar
• Gulul-Ei
• Mallus Maccius
• Enthir
• Endon
• Niranye
• Erikur
• Olfrid Battle-Born

Assets:

• A high income of information and money through out the province of Skyrim.
• High amount of political influence in each of the major holds.
• Access to large amounts of funds.
• The indirect assistance of the Daedric Lord Nocturnal through her agreement with the Nightingales.
• Skilled thieves.
• All seem to have some form of skill with a bow or dagger.
• Access to a blessing from Nocturnal which hides them from their enemies and subtly makes their luck turn out better for them by causing people to not notice them as often or by making their lock picks break less often.

Allies Assets:

• Maven Black-Briar's position as Jarl of The Rift gives her political influence throughout Skyrim and especially The Rift.
• Enthir could supply information on the Collage of Winterhold.
• A few of the Thieves Guilds allies have a fair amount of influence in different holds.
• Maven Black-Briar could provide assistance of the City Guard and use her influence the Legion and wealth to assist the Guild.
• Khajiit caravans provide covert transport for messages, goods, and funds.
• Information can be provided by the different allies throughout Skyrim.

further Notes:

The Thieves Guild, while traditionally avoid killing, are capable of killing their enemies stealthily if required as well as able to use more discreet methods such as framing their enemies if needed. This combined with their political influence would allow them to get away with crimes that would sabotage and weaken the other factions enough to possibly win the proposed war.​

After all of this I can't even pick a winner. This close look at each faction has made it too difficult for me to determine the winning faction in this war. I do believe it could be a toss up. However I would like to see where this takes the discussion.

 

[Spiral Power!]

Thieves guild would win easy.

There's much more to war than fighting power. If you read the Art of War, the greatest general is the general who can win a battle without every engaging in open conflict. The Thieves guild does this over and over, subdoing entire cities through indirect control methods that are impossible to foresee beforehand.

For example, if it were a real war, the Thieves guild could simply hide, and keep using subterfuge and sabotage to keep the other two factions fighting each other while ignoring them. Through control of the economy, they'd also have the highest form of control over local governments, and hired mercenaries, as well as the resources to upkeep them all. They'd have way more advantages than the other two sides, being completely invisible in the conflict and being able to indirectly and directly control the war while fighting no battles whatsoever.

Example strategy: use insurgents within the College to drain supplies, fund the Companions and plant information about the hidden locations of the College's supply lines, then plant forged evidence of Stormcloak insurgents that control the Companions within the Imperial Legion, and use agents within Windhelm to report fake evidence of a Stormcloak attack to Imperial spies within Windhelm, making the spies report the Stormcloak march on Winterhold. The Jarl of Winterhold will no doubt be informed, starting a chain reaction, resulting in a massive Imperial force arriving and slaughtering the Companions, and leaving the College with still no supplies.

Then simply use your monetary resources to hire assassins to slay the Archmage, of course after setting up a great funding of the College, being its central financial backer, the Thieves guild would easily be able to coerce power out of the College with threats of starvation, or intimidation.

If that didn't work, it would once again come down to simply arranging a direct conflict between the College and the Thalmor, who already have a strained relationship. This of course would result in the Imperials deconstructing the College in some form to preserve relationships between the elves and the empire.

There's a million ways the Thieves Guild could win. The only way that the other two factions could win is if they searched the entirety of Skyrim to find every single bastion of power within the Thieves guild, which could easily become mobile and invisible enough to blend into any town or city, which are also under the protection of the Empire or the Stormcloaks, making them impervious to direct assault.

Even in just the vanilla game, the Thieves guild holds much more power than the College or the Companions. It's no contest.

Also Dark Brotherhood forever.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

Thieves guild would win easy.

There's much more to war than fighting power. If you read the Art of War, the greatest general is the general who can win a battle without every engaging in open conflict. The Thieves guild does this over and over, subdoing entire cities through indirect control methods that are impossible to foresee beforehand.

For example, if it were a real war, the Thieves guild could simply hide, and keep using subterfuge and sabotage to keep the other two factions fighting each other while ignoring them. Through control of the economy, they'd also have the highest form of control over local governments, and hired mercenaries, as well as the resources to upkeep them all. They'd have way more advantages than the other two sides, being completely invisible in the conflict and being able to indirectly and directly control the war while fighting no battles whatsoever.

Example strategy: use insurgents within the College to drain supplies, fund the Companions and plant information about the hidden locations of the College's supply lines, then plant forged evidence of Stormcloak insurgents that control the Companions within the Imperial Legion, and use agents within Windhelm to report fake evidence of a Stormcloak attack to Imperial spies within Windhelm, making the spies report the Stormcloak march on Winterhold. The Jarl of Winterhold will no doubt be informed, starting a chain reaction, resulting in a massive Imperial force arriving and slaughtering the Companions, and leaving the College with still no supplies.

Then simply use your monetary resources to hire assassins to slay the Archmage, of course after setting up a great funding of the College, being its central financial backer, the Thieves guild would easily be able to coerce power out of the College with threats of starvation, or intimidation.

If that didn't work, it would once again come down to simply arranging a direct conflict between the College and the Thalmor, who already have a strained relationship. This of course would result in the Imperials deconstructing the College in some form to preserve relationships between the elves and the empire.

There's a million ways the Thieves Guild could win. The only way that the other two factions could win is if they searched the entirety of Skyrim to find every single bastion of power within the Thieves guild, which could easily become mobile and invisible enough to blend into any town or city, which are also under the protection of the Empire or the Stormcloaks, making them impervious to direct assault.

Even in just the vanilla game, the Thieves guild holds much more power than the College or the Companions. It's no contest.

Also Dark Brotherhood forever.

Take a look at my post above you. That shows quite how much more the Thieves Guild has on the others. I was shocked when I was taking a hard look at the three of them. Even if Maven wasn't jarl she already holds a lot of influence.

 

[Spiral Power!]

Well it just seemed so obvious I didn't need to read any other arguments. The Thieves Guild is the only group with real power, combat ability doesn't do anything against an opponent that you can't see, that controls every town to setup your demise, is virtually impossible to find and attack, and has vast resources to manipulate other groups to do their bidding.

Combat ability means nothing when you can't attack your opponent, and that's all the other two factions have.

 

[Haru17]

The Thieves Guild has the numbers, the Companions have the experience, and the College has a the questionable/potential power.

The thing about the Thieves Guild, is it solely depends on the location and the speed of the battle. If it's a battle in a room like the Flagoon, they'd likely lose pretty quickly. If it's from their respective bases, they'd stand a very good chance. They'd probably use guerilla tactics and sabotage each group.

The mages have different niches, that each compliment each other. A restoration lady is incredibly helpful, as well as all these other schools of magic. If they had time to make a decent organized plan, the battle would be theirs.

The Companions basically have the default. If the mages plan screw up somehow, the Companions would get a victory. If the Thieves Guild didn't have the proper terms to the battle, the Companions would win.

I agree with this. The Companions have the zerg / AAAAHHHHH, werewolves! effect &, again, the battle prowess. They are actually the smallest, but most seasoned veteran guild.

The thieve's guild definitely has the most members / allies (see the list above). It is important to note that they're not against killing, they just seek alternative methods when they don't need to spill blood, it's simply too messy with the authorities and all.

The College of Winterhold have the firepower and would dominate at range. They just have to be sure to maintain distance from the other two guild's blades, claws, axes, and daggers.


The deities behind each guild are an interesting discussion as well.

The Thieve's guild are the simplest as it was covered so well during their questline; they have Nocturnal on their side.

The Companions have Hircine's blessing / powers / curse, if not his support. I'm unsure if they have any other nordic gods connected to them in some way. I think this is at least possible with their history.

The College of Winterhold has not patron deity, at least not up front. Their power is that of magic and as such they don't really need blessings. That being said Julianos is sometimes a mage's deity.


As a final thought I'd really love to see what people have to say when the Dark Brotherhood, Dawnguard, and Volkhair Vampires are included. /ponder...

 

[Psiberzerker]

1st of all, great breakdown, Squirrel_Killer. As we have no way to test this, it pretty much boils down to Opinion. My money's still on the College, due to the defensive position, numbers, and Ability. You may count the Allies, but I see them as an unreliable variable. For Instance, I doubt Maven Blackbriar would be willing to stick her neck out for the guild, she's just not that sort of Personality. That aslo begs the question of who their enemies are. For instance, I don't think the Companions would have too much trouble recruiting Mjoll to their cause against the TG/Blackbriars. The Court Mages might help the College, but on an Individual Basis. The Jarl of Whiterun would likely order Farengar to support the Companions, for instance.

I would also go with the original starting guilds, to eliminate all the variables brought in by the intervening Quests, and all the members they lost, especially the Companions. That would also lessen the numerical advantage of the College. Enthir, I'd wager would side with the TG, but he's the only wildcard with double membership.

 

[Epic Keith]

I will point out that the Companions don't have any Magic Resistance, and destruction ignores armor. So the fighter's suits would only slow them down. And again, they're outnumbered.

Aren Kodlac
Skor Mirabelle
Vilkas Faralda
Farkas Ninya
Aela Tolfdir
Ria Brelyana
Athis J'zargo
Torvar Orthorn
Collette, Arniel, Phinias, Drevis, Sergius, all of them full blown wizards. that's 13-8, or more than a 3-2 advantage with magic that goes right through their armor, the ability to summon reinforcements from Oblivion, Healing, and Range advantage on all but 1 of the Companions. That's to start, as you progress through the questlines, they lose Aren, Skor, Kodlac...

It's just not an even match. Not even close.

You forgot Mirabelle, she dies too

 

[TheDovahkiin]

Thieves would get MASSACRED. Silly boys in robes! Real men wear armor!

 

[Spiral Power!]

And I have to say again, Thieves guild would win very easily over the others. There's so many ways they can destroy the college and the companions without every being involved in direct conflict, and even better is that because they are simply thieves, they can easily move around without attracting any attention, no armor or robes to make them stand out. It would be impossible to even know who/where they were.

Political allies and the ability to manipulate entire armies into fighting one another is much more powerful than simple standing forces or ability. As well as having a monetary advantage, and the ability to control enemy resources. After listening to an audio book reading of the Art of War several times now, its just no comparison. Neither the companions nor the college have the standing forces or freedom of mobility that could compete with the thieves guild politcal advantages, monetary resources, control of trade, or the fact that to even attack them you'd have to also attack the empire or the stormcloaks, due to the thieves guild being safely nestled into every single hold in the nation.