Mookie
Active Member
He left atmora and came to Skyrim to get away from wars and death. He was peacefull and friendly.
Then elves decided to go all Egyptian and kill everyone for fear of Nords breeding too much.
They simply got what was coming.
Ysgramor, Hero or Murderous Savage?
- Thread starter Ivory
- Start date
He left atmora and came to Skyrim to get away from wars and death. He was peacefull and friendly.
Then elves decided to go all Egyptian and kill everyone for fear of Nords breeding too much.
They simply got what was coming.
Blackwhite1223
Well-Known Member
Really? "Ysgramor and his army hunted the Snow Elves and other Mer alike, and made possible the rise of men, eventually establishing the First Empire[6]. These series of events gained the name of The Return and have since led to a strong hatred and prejudice between the races of Men and Mer." -http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Night_of_Tears
He hunted elves. He could have stopped after re-taking Saarthal, he could have initiated peace talks. Instead, he effectively wiped them out. 'They simply got what was coming' is one of the poorest excuses for genocide. They lost a city, so what? They should have moved on. Not decided to wipe out a race.
He hunted elves. He could have stopped after re-taking Saarthal, he could have initiated peace talks. Instead, he effectively wiped them out. 'They simply got what was coming' is one of the poorest excuses for genocide. They lost a city, so what? They should have moved on. Not decided to wipe out a race.
Mookie
Active Member
When you come peacefully to run away from war, and you befriend someone and they backstab you, the anger you feel is great. Greatest of all if I may add.
He probably went trough breakdown, seeing how stupid he was for trusting them, for believeing that you can go away from war, and not to mention the anger he felt seeing that all that suported him and left atmora for same reasons were dead. So he went back and then returned with 500 pissed of men and women.
Ivory
Let's Player
Genocide isn't a clear winner to stop war. That's like saying all Germans should have been wiped out due to both WW's having to mainly focus with them. This logic of "Wipe them out, problem solved" is the most backwards thought I'd ever heard of. It's one thing to say war can cause genocide, but to say its the only real way to win a war? Well then crap, the only 'wars' that have been won in the world were the native americans being forced out..or any instance like it.. Oh wait that was genocide too.
Your example is an almost isolated one. There are many countries that have gone to war with one another and have given peace. Does that mean everyone is friendly 24/7? No but there is peace. Look at the UN, doesn't that prove something? Honestly, Tiber Septim would never have slaughtered an entire race. He brought the entirety of Tamriel into peace through war yes, but it was a war won without one sided genocide. Had he followed Ysgramor's example, he would have failed and there would be no Septim Era at all.
In fact, typing that out now, doesn't that make Ysgramor and Tiber Septim polar opposites?
Mookie
Active Member
UN is here how long?
War is a constant. There can never be peace between two people claiming that same place belongs to them
Blackwhite1223
Well-Known Member
Why not stay in Atmora, or settle somewhere else in Tamriel?There was no need for him to wage war because a few hundred pissed off people.
Ivory
Let's Player
This. This right here. Ysgramor caused the entire hatred between men and mer IN THE FIRST PLACE. Who's to say that both men and mer wouldn't have become allies with one another hadnt Ysgramor hunted mer, apparently not just Snow Elves either. He effectively, indirectly has caused every war between Men and Mer since then.
Ivory
Let's Player
Native Americans and the Colonies. Mexico and the US fighting over Texas. Germany and the rest of the world.
Mookie
Active Member
I supose you didnt read my post or lore. He was allied with elves. He went away to escape war and find peace.
And then elves decided that men are breeding to much so its time to cut them down.
Little did they know what lay in Atmora
Mookie
Active Member
Izrael and Palestine?
really peacefull and secure place.
So safe that people need to be separated by 30 foot concrete walls.
Ivory
Let's Player
So the effective solution is to slaughter an entire race? Non-sense. One city I seriously doubt equated to the entire human population on Tamriel at the time.
And? My point still outweighs yours. Peace has happened and can happen.
Blackwhite1223
Well-Known Member
Skyrim originally belonged to the snow elves. Not Ysgramor. He had no need or right to come back looking to eliminate the Snow elves. Peace could have been achieved, if not for him.
Ivory
Let's Player
Also, where is your proof of this "Lore" that Ysgramor had an alliance with the Elves? Peace and an Alliance are two different things.
Mookie
Active Member
The Atmorans were among the first human settlers on Tamriel and had been emigrating from Atmora for many years prior.[1] They called the land Mereth, in recognition of the vast number of Mer that lived there, and befriended the local Elves.[2]
They built the great city of Saarthal which became one of the first major Nord settlements, one of the first cities of men in Skyrim and the earliest known capital of their civilization.[3]
Sack of SaarthalEdit
One night, an invading force of Elves descended upon Saarthal and slaughtered the inhabitants. The city itself was burned to the ground. These events became known as the Night of Tears.[3]
MotiveEdit
Originally, it was believed that the Elves motive was to exterminate the Atmorans as they realized the rate at which Man's population was growing. If left unchecked, these settlers would become a great threat to Elvish civilization on Tamriel. Another theory, proposed by Imperial scholars, is that the Snow Elves' motives for attacking Saarthal was that they feared that the Atmorans' culture would surpass their own, and thus sought to drive the men from their lands.[2]
It has been speculated however that when the city was originally built, the Atmorans found a source of great powerlocated underneath Saarthal and attempted to keep it buried. The elves learned of this and coveted it for themselves.[3]
Some reports suggest that the initial attack on Saarthal was very focused, and did not appear to correlate to any locations that were established as points of defense or importance. Not only did the elves know the apparent layout of the city, but that their assault was based on a specific directive and perhaps a singular goal [4].
Here you go sir.
Mookie
Active Member
Ivory
Let's Player
I did. No where does it state there was an alliance. Friendly terms for years? Yes. In fact your post helps me make another deduction.
It has been speculated however that when the city was originally built, the Atmorans found a source of great powerlocated underneath Saarthal and attempted to keep it buried. The elves learned of this and coveted it for themselves.[3]
Some reports suggest that the initial attack on Saarthal was very focused, and did not appear to correlate to any locations that were established as points of defense or importance. Not only did the elves know the apparent layout of the city, but that their assault was based on a specific directive and perhaps a singular goal [4].
This is proven in Skyrim's game that it wasnt about a hatred for the Atmorans or trying to wipe them out. This was about a power, not about Land. The Atmorans made it about Land.
It has been speculated however that when the city was originally built, the Atmorans found a source of great powerlocated underneath Saarthal and attempted to keep it buried. The elves learned of this and coveted it for themselves.[3]
Some reports suggest that the initial attack on Saarthal was very focused, and did not appear to correlate to any locations that were established as points of defense or importance. Not only did the elves know the apparent layout of the city, but that their assault was based on a specific directive and perhaps a singular goal [4].
This is proven in Skyrim's game that it wasnt about a hatred for the Atmorans or trying to wipe them out. This was about a power, not about Land. The Atmorans made it about Land.
Mookie
Active Member
A power which shouldnt be wielded by anyone, a power they burried deep down and didnt use even as they were getting slaughtered.
Actualy I just think you will keep ignoring what is said just to keep the discussion going
Ivory
Let's Player
Not at all. This is all open ended questions. I'm simply questioning, granted there just isn't enough evidence for a lot of information, but you still have not acknowledged what I said. I'm waiting for that. It's been my response several times now and you have ignored it.
Mookie
Active Member
If you are expecting some stone tablet saying what exactly hapened it aint gonna happen.
It is left, like everything else to personal interpretation
