Ysgramor, Hero or Murderous Savage?

[Ivory]

They might have been twisted mentaly and physicaly, but I doubt that lifespan would be short.
I believe that most are still snow elves geneticaly and some even walked Skyrim and fought nords before defeat.

That's not how mutation works, sorry to say. Besides, Gelebor himself says the change didn't happen overnight. I'm not sure why you have this idea that this was a recent thing in time.

 

[Mookie]

That's not how mutation works, sorry to say. Besides, Gelebor himself says the change didn't happen overnight. I'm not sure why you have this idea that this was a recent thing in time.

Mutations to apply require reproduction and passing of mutated genes trough generations.
Since it didnt happen instantly some falmer are still the same as the ones that walked the ground above

 

[Ivory]

Mutations to apply require reproduction and passing of mutated genes trough generations.
Since it didnt happen instantly some falmer are still the same as the ones that walked the ground above

I...am unsure of the point you are trying to make.

 

[Mookie]

I...am unsure of the point you are trying to make.

That falmer have lost some cognitive skills and abilities and have deformed physicaly. But that they are still falmer as before, and that some of the mutated falmer we see, once walked above and fought nords. like gelebor.

 

[Joker]

Ysgramor - Man of Mystery.......

 

[Ivory]

That falmer have lost some cognitive skills and abilities and have deformed physicaly. But that they are still falmer as before, and that some of the mutated falmer we see, once walked above and fought nords. like gelebor.

Again, if this was true, they wouldn't have killed everyone Gelebor and his Paladins were protecting.

 

[Mookie]

Again, if this was true, they wouldn't have killed everyone Gelebor and his Paladins were protecting.

They would. Give man some shrooms today and depending on species you will see waried behavior, from extreme agression to catatonic behavior.

What I am saying is that it could be easy to bring back the falmer in their true shape if the mutagen was removed (in this case glowing shrooms) for a few years, then breed them, and keep the fetus and offspring out of the influence of the shrooms.
Then breed the offspring as well, and in few generations you will have them back, maybe even starting to gain some eyesight back

 

[Daelon DuLac]

They would. Give man some shrooms today and depending on species you will see waried behavior, from extreme agression to catatonic behavior.

What I am saying is that it could be easy to bring back the falmer in their true shape if the mutagen was removed (in this case glowing shrooms) for a few years, then breed them, and keep the fetus and offspring out of the influence of the shrooms.
Then breed the offspring as well, and in few generations you will have them back, maybe even starting to gain some eyesight back

That's not necessarily true. The removal of a mutagen may not reverse the mutation (of course there is always the possiblity). Often in genetics, once a mutation has been established, there is no going back. As per our early point. I would assume that the lifespan has been greatly depleted by the mutation (although we never see any females or offspring, hmmm....) and thus the mutations have been firmly established within the breeding stock. Even if we had some clean genetics to introduce, we may never be able to completely remove the mutations.
Depending on the properties of the "shrooms" (as you call them), it is quite possible that, if they have an intellect depleting affect and instill both aggression, lack of judgement and blindness, then the affects may be somewhat alleviated by the removal.
I would, however, suspect that, since the dissappearance of the Dwemer, that the "shrooms" have not been a full part of their diet (why would they use them?).
The Falmor have never struck me as particularly unintelligent during my encounters with them (after all, they have mastered a good deal of magic and are quite good strategists and have built a relationship with the chaurus and spiders - although I'm not sure what it is - it could be symbiotic or synergistic). I suspect that it is their environment that has retarded their development to it's fullest extent rather than a lack of ability.

 

[Mookie]

That's not necessarily true. The removal of a mutagen may not reverse the mutation (of course there is always the possiblity). Often in genetics, once a mutation has been established, there is no going back. As per our early point. I would assume that the lifespan has been greatly depleted by the mutation (although we never see any females or offspring, hmmm....) and thus the mutations have been firmly established within the breeding stock. Even if we had some clean genetics to introduce, we may never be able to completely remove the mutations.
Depending on the properties of the "shrooms" (as you call them), it is quite possible that, if they have an intellect depleting affect and instill both aggression, lack of judgement and blindness, then the affects may be somewhat alleviated by the removal.
I would, however, suspect that, since the dissappearance of the Dwemer, that the "shrooms" have not been a full part of their diet (why would they use them?).
The Falmor have never struck me as particularly unintelligent during my encounters with them (after all, they have mastered a good deal of magic and are quite good strategists and have built a relationship with the chaurus and spiders - although I'm not sure what it is - it could be symbiotic or synergistic). I suspect that it is their environment that has retarded their development to it's fullest extent rather than a lack of ability.

That depends on a few things. If I am right and there havent been too many generations then it is relatively easily reversable by removing the mutagen and "breeding" them without it for a 10-20 generations.
Easy enough for an elf.
After 15 generations it could be posible to teach them language etc..

 

[Daelon DuLac]

That depends on a few things. If I am right and there havent been too many generations then it is relatively easily reversable by removing the mutagen and "breeding" them without it for a 10-20 generations.
Easy enough for an elf.
After 15 generations it could be posible to teach them language etc..

Personally I don't believe that they do not have a language of some sort. Perhaps it is not a language that surface dwellers neccessarily understand, but they must communicate in some way. If it is body and hand signal based, that could easily have been obtained over only one or two generations. If it is based on chemical or pheremone signals, it would tend to support my theory that the lifespans have been vastly shortened due to their mutation as that is not an evolutionary trait that could be obtained quickly. I tend to go the latter if there is no spoken language as it would also support their relationship with the chaurus and spiders and explain why those two species don't just attack them as they do every other living being. Perhaps the Falmer are recognized as "safe" as is the case in many insect and arachnid species in our modern day world. One the lack of language thing, is that something in the Lore? Just because they don't communicate with surface folks, doesn't mean that they don't communicate amongst themselves.

On another note: I LUV THIS DISCUSSION! How often do you get to debate genetics? I mean really! How often?

 

[Daelon DuLac]

Since we're in this discussion about falmer, a query that I am sure y'all can answer. I want to do some experimentation with Falmer Armor armor, helmets and weapons: (note: this is on vanilla - no DLCs

1) Where is the best respawn? And if you know where they would have the armor and helmets, that would be great (of course there would have to be chaurus as well as I need the chitin)
2) Are falmer items as enchantable and improvable as any other?

Thanks!

 

[Mookie]

Personally I don't believe that they do not have a language of some sort. Perhaps it is not a language that surface dwellers neccessarily understand, but they must communicate in some way. If it is body and hand signal based, that could easily have been obtained over only one or two generations. If it is based on chemical or pheremone signals, it would tend to support my theory that the lifespans have been vastly shortened due to their mutation as that is not an evolutionary trait that could be obtained quickly. I tend to go the latter if there is no spoken language as it would also support their relationship with the chaurus and spiders and explain why those two species don't just attack them as they do every other living being. Perhaps the Falmer are recognized as "safe" as is the case in many insect and arachnid species in our modern day world. One the lack of language thing, is that something in the Lore? Just because they don't communicate with surface folks, doesn't mean that they don't communicate amongst themselves.

On another note: I LUV THIS DISCUSSION! How often do you get to debate genetics? I mean really! How often?

They have language, I meant teaching them Falmer language, real falmer.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

They have language, I meant teaching them Falmer language, real falmer.

I wouldn't think that that would be such an issue, even now (of course they'd have to stop trying to kill everybody first). Learning a language is not that big a deal, after all. We in the real world do it all the time. I am sure, if my assumption about their intelligence is correct, that they would not have that much of an issue with learning it.

 

[Gunnbjorn]

I remember arguing about this in the Imperial/Stormcloak thread... too lazy to go look for it but ultimately what was decided was that their wasn't enough information about that event to conclude the reasoning behind Ysgramor and what his true colors are... you would have to decide for yourself based on your perspective of it. So as a fellow Nord, I call him a hero... somebody else, however, may call him a murdering pillager.

 

[Ivory]

With the addition of Dawnguard, Female Falmer are normally run into. And again, the Falmer's situation cannot be reversed. It's been stated again and again.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

With the addition of Dawnguard, Female Falmer are normally run into. And again, the Falmer's situation cannot be reversed. It's been stated again and again.

I agree. We may be able to mitigate their present state to some degree, but, then again, do we really have the right to? Perhaps, after everything, the Falmer are satisfied with their lot (other than being stuck underground all the time and completely unwelcome on the surface, I mean). I do not believe they could ever be restored to their former states, but that doesn't mean that their lot may not be changed.

That fact doesn't make this discussion any less interesting though. Regardless of the DLC's (Dawnguard in this case), I was speaking in terms of the vanilla game. Many do not have the DLCs so, whether the DLC circumstances happen or not, it is really a moot point in general discussion.

 

[Gunnbjorn]

Ysgramor and the Stories of the Return are the best written lore in Skyrim. It was too bad that more was not made of it. Ysgramor is like the Nord Columbus. The latter came to the New World in the spirit of discovery and enterprise, and certainly did a lot of good. However, in the process he did a lot of really nasty things too. That was Ysgramor, and that is what made him such a believable figure.

Ysgramor did a lot of these nasty things in defense, one could imagine that he did not come to Tamriel for war, because he could have stayed in Atmora for that. He brought with him people who wanted a new home with which they could live in peace, and they weren't bothered at first... until they discovered the Eye of Magnus when building Saarthal.

 

[DrunkenMage]

History is written by the victor, many would of called Talos a warlord, tyrant, conqueror. Now look at him, the greatest of the Nine Divines, Hero-God of Mankind. Talos who shaped the land with his voice... etc etc.

Same can be said for Ysgramor, he is considered a great hero, a legend to all of Skyrim.

 

[Mookie]

Personally I don't believe that they do not have a language of some sort. Perhaps it is not a language that surface dwellers neccessarily understand, but they must communicate in some way. If it is body and hand signal based, that could easily have been obtained over only one or two generations. If it is based on chemical or pheremone signals, it would tend to support my theory that the lifespans have been vastly shortened due to their mutation as that is not an evolutionary trait that could be obtained quickly. I tend to go the latter if there is no spoken language as it would also support their relationship with the chaurus and spiders and explain why those two species don't just attack them as they do every other living being. Perhaps the Falmer are recognized as "safe" as is the case in many insect and arachnid species in our modern day world. One the lack of language thing, is that something in the Lore? Just because they don't communicate with surface folks, doesn't mean that they don't communicate amongst themselves.

On another note: I LUV THIS DISCUSSION! How often do you get to debate genetics? I mean really! How often?

Sorry, my gf came and I couldnt give you a proper answer.
So here we go. Falmer have a language, that hoarse sound, like dry cough or something like that. You can hear them "talking" when you are sneaking.
Body signals and hand signals are unlikely as they have lost their eyesight.
The mutations I have in mind hapened gradualy but not completely as not many generations changed.
What I think is that Falmer that were alive during Ysgramors time are still alive, but mutated horribly, grew resentment toward everyone Humans because they forced them under, elves because they left them or in case of dwemer mutated them and blinded them. As for chaurus I think that they have access either to some sort of potion or extremely powerfull illusion spells, because they coexist with those horrible creatures, but not only them, they also have human slaves, which are extremely loyal to them and would die for them.
So feromones cant explain that
So its either some sort of Alchemy or Illusion

 

[Seanu Reaves]

You act like Falmer and Snow Elves are the same thing. Time has gone on so long they arent't at least in my mind. For example Falmer fill normal soul gems. Yup that means they are no longer "Sentient" Basically the Falmar are de-evolved to the point they are lower level than say cave man to a modern human. Falmar are how they are do to Dewmer torture and experimentation the Falmer don't hate people because they remember what caused them to be like this. They are basically aggressive animals.
Though the slaves bring up an interesting question. Are these Beastial falmer somehow smart enough similar to ants and other "civilization" creatures that they might be slowly re-evolving back?