Ysgramor, Hero or Murderous Savage?

[Ivory]

My vote goes to both. 1.) He's a hero, he led his people to find a new home, succeeded and when attacked he led them in defense, counterattack and war. The man by all accounts was an honorable, and proud man and a worthy warrior 2.) He's a murderous savage, as all men are in war. Was it genocide? Yes Does that matter? No. War is vicious, and cruel. When war was forced upon him, he embraced it, and well, let's face it, if you're gonna do something then you might as well do it right. By right I mean completely and wholeheartedly. They attacked him so he took their home and killed any who he found. It's called total war, and it's honestly the only right way to win a war, because your enemy isn't going to recover and try again.

To sum it up: He's a Nord who fought for his people and killed elves, he's both.

What about him "taking more lives then Honor demanded" as said by the harbinger of the current Companions? Surely eradicating a race isn't justifiable means for anything. There has to be a line from war and genocide don't you think? The very definitions of war and genocide bring this up to debate.



War- A state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state.


Genocide- The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

That must matter to a point, as it has in history before. (Ex. WWII)

 

[Pretty Vampires]

To be honest, I think the Aedra (fake gods) are a bunch of egotistical jackasses that need to get that stick out of their asses.

 

[Joker]

What about him "taking more lives then Honor demanded" as said by the harbinger of the current Companions? Surely eradicating a race isn't justifiable means for anything. There has to be a line from war and genocide don't you think? The very definitions of war and genocide bring this up to debate.

War- A state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state.

Genocide- The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

That must matter to a point, as it has in history before. (Ex. WWII)

One question about the quote. Is that his opinion, or fact? There is no way to definitively tell if his statement is fact or just his opinion. In any conflict, skirmish, or war, there are actions that are questionable for some, and acceptable to others. That doesn't make one view more relevant than another. That simply means that someone saw it one way, and another saw it in a different manner.

Genocide is inexcusable, of that I want to be perfectly clear. War, and the actions of those actively involved in the conflict may not always act honorably, as the situation may not allow for honor, but rather to commit an act in self-preservation. Does that make it right? To the survivor, yes. To others, maybe not. Regardless, unless you were in that position, your opinion means little to those that were there.

Differing viewpoints spark thought, which is always a good thing. We don't have to agree, that is not always fun... But try looking at both sides, and honestly ask yourself or others the same question you would ask about the side you see from, and see if you can see that viewpoint. That might alter your stance, then again it might not. Regardless, you will have seen something from a different point of view, expanding your horizons.

 

[Ivory]

One question about the quote. Is that his opinion, or fact? There is no way to definitively tell if his statement is fact or just his opinion. In any conflict, skirmish, or war, there are actions that are questionable for some, and acceptable to others. That doesn't make one view more relevant than another. That simply means that someone saw it one way, and another saw it in a different manner.

Genocide is inexcusable, of that I want to be perfectly clear. War, and the actions of those actively involved in the conflict may not always act honorably, as the situation may not allow for honor, but rather to commit an act in self-preservation. Does that make it right? To the survivor, yes. To others, maybe not. Regardless, unless you were in that position, your opinion means little to those that were there.

Differing viewpoints spark thought, which is always a good thing. We don't have to agree, that is not always fun... But try looking at both sides, and honestly ask yourself or others the same question you would ask about the side you see from, and see if you can see that viewpoint. That might alter your stance, then again it might not. Regardless, you will have seen something from a different point of view, expanding your horizons.

I like playing the devil's advocate at times. The purpose of this thread is all about opinions and expressing and opening them to discussion. While the Stormcloak thread is all about lore and facts, this is all about opinion on lore and opinions based around the man who brought Man to Tamriel.

 

[Joker]

I like playing the devil's advocate at times. The purpose of this thread is all about opinions and expressing and opening them to discussion. While the Stormcloak thread is all about lore and facts, this is all about opinion on lore and opinions based around the man who brought Man to Tamriel.

I hope I was not misunderstood. I was simply giving my viewpoint, not trying to shout anybody down.

I like that role as well. I like to take a differing view point for the reason that I might learn something, or I might change my mind based on what I hear and want to refute. Life is too short to always go along with conventional wisdom. Sometimes, to affect change in thought processes, yours has to be the first.

 

[Lady Redpool the Unlifer]

What about him "taking more lives then Honor demanded" as said by the harbinger of the current Companions? Surely eradicating a race isn't justifiable means for anything. There has to be a line from war and genocide don't you think? The very definitions of war and genocide bring this up to debate.



War- A state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state.


Genocide- The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

That must matter to a point, as it has in history before. (Ex. WWII)

I did say total war right?
to·tal war

Noun
A war that is unrestricted in terms of the weapons used, the territory or combatants involved, or the objectives pursued
He didn't eradicate them, they still exist in fact, he just killed enough of them that they left the province. In my opinion he made them pay for the attack on his people. An eye for an eye isn't how you fight a war, when you have a problem with a nation/people big enough to go to war, you should be prepared to burn the memory of the war into their DNA so that they never make the mistake of fl*ffing with you again, and you'd better get somethin worthwhile out of it. He did this. He scarred their ancestral memory and gained a land for his people.

 

[Ivory]

I did say total war right?
to·tal war

Noun
A war that is unrestricted in terms of the weapons used, the territory or combatants involved, or the objectives pursued
He didn't eradicate them, they still exist in fact, he just killed enough of them that they left the province. In my opinion he made them pay for the attack on his people. An eye for an eye isn't how you fight a war, when you have a problem with a nation/people big enough to go to war, you should be prepared to burn the memory of the war into their DNA so that they never make the mistake of fl*ffing with you again, and you'd better get somethin worthwhile out of it. He did this. He scarred their ancestral memory and gained a land for his people.

This was Not total war. The Snow elves ran into hiding and any that exposed themselves were murdered. Your definition does not fit what you define as war, your vision of war and revenge is massive Genocide. Your definition states itself Combatants Involved. That means there has to be fighting entirely on both sides. After the fall of the Snow Prince, many gave up and ran into hiding with the dwemer. That's not war or total war by either definition.

 

[Lady Redpool the Unlifer]

This was Not total war. The Snow elves ran into hiding and any that exposed themselves were murdered. Your definition does not fit what you define as war, your vision of war and revenge is massive Genocide. Your definition states itself Combatants Involved. That means there has to be fighting entirely on both sides. After the fall of the Snow Prince, many gave up and ran into hiding with the dwemer. That's not war or total war by either definition.

Objectives pursued is the last part. If the objective was kill them all, then that's total war. In any case, this is actually how wars in our world were fought in ancient times. Either kill them all or enslave the survivors. It's how war was fought back when people who went to war were willing to do anything for a cause, and I ask you this: had the humans failed to repel the snow elves, would the elves have spared them? I doubt it. The humans had nowhere to run and likely would have been killed to the last. War is ugly, cruel and vicious. He didn't do anything that wasn't expected of him.

 

[Ivory]

Tamriel isn't the only area of Nirn. Besides, like every war, there are those on both sides I'm sure who would have wanted peace. It's plausible that the Snow elves would have done the same to the Atmorans, but why? It wasn't until Saarthal that the Snow Elves attacked, and even then it wasn't to eradicate the humans, it was to take the power that was hidden there. I do hope for more lore about all this, but damn it Bethesda didnt give much of anything it seems.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

Ysgramor indirectly caused the extinction of Snow Elves.....so I hate him for that reason

Well, technically the Snow Elves aren't "extinct", just devolved... Right?

 

[Mookie]

This was Not total war. The Snow elves ran into hiding and any that exposed themselves were murdered. Your definition does not fit what you define as war, your vision of war and revenge is massive Genocide. Your definition states itself Combatants Involved. That means there has to be fighting entirely on both sides. After the fall of the Snow Prince, many gave up and ran into hiding with the dwemer. That's not war or total war by either definition.

The number of dead and killed is still smaller than would be a number men and elves that died if they were left more or less intact with constant warfare in that 4000 years of existence
He did that and snow elves and men never went to war again

 

[Ivory]

Well, technically the Snow Elves aren't "extinct", just devolved... Right?

The Snow Elves are extinct. The only thing left in their place is Gelebor. The Falmer will never be was they once were. Even if they grow to intelligence again, they'll never be able to be what they once were. What they were is effectively extinct unless there is a massive supply of Snow elves hidden somewhere on Nirn.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

The Snow Elves are extinct. The only thing left in their place is Gelebor. The Falmer will never be was they once were. Even if they grow to intelligence again, they'll never be able to be what they once were. What they were is effectively extinct unless there is a massive supply of Snow elves hidden somewhere on Nirn.

While I do agree that they are not the same in capacity, are they that different genetically? It has only been about 4K years and, given the lifespan of elves, that doesn't seem very long. I just thought I would ask since it strikes me that, if the Falmer are devolved Snow Elves, given the time frame, they really can't be all that different. My logic was that Snow Elf = Falmer, so the Snow Elves aren't really extinct. Like I said, I am probably wrong.

 

[Ivory]

While I do agree that they are not the same in capacity, are they that different genetically? It has only been about 4K years and, given the lifespan of elves, that doesn't seem very long. I just thought I would ask since it strikes me that, if the Falmer are devolved Snow Elves, given the time frame, they really can't be all that different. My logic was that Snow Elf = Falmer, so the Snow Elves aren't really extinct. Like I said, I am probably wrong.

Genetically I can't say, there are very many differences between both though. As gelebor says, it wasnt a plague or a diesease that destroyed them. Slavery, ingesting a Toxin that makes you blind, unable to do much other than serve your Masters and breed tends to really cripple anything really, to the point they cease to be what they once were. It's very likely the toxin caused mutations as you can clearly see in the Falmer and Snow Elf.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

Genetically I can't say, there are very many differences between both though. As gelebor says, it wasnt a plague or a diesease that destroyed them. Slavery, ingesting a Toxin that makes you blind, unable to do much other than serve your Masters and breed tends to really cripple anything really, to the point they cease to be what they once were. It's very likely the toxin caused mutations as you can clearly see in the Falmer and Snow Elf.

Very, very true.

 

[Mookie]

Genetically I can't say, there are very many differences between both though. As gelebor says, it wasnt a plague or a diesease that destroyed them. Slavery, ingesting a Toxin that makes you blind, unable to do much other than serve your Masters and breed tends to really cripple anything really, to the point they cease to be what they once were. It's very likely the toxin caused mutations as you can clearly see in the Falmer and Snow Elf.

but how did it change them soo much, since gelebor is still alive that means that a lot of those falmer that we see now were alive during Ysgramors time as well

 

[Daelon DuLac]

but how did it change them soo much, since gelebor is still alive that means that a lot of those falmer that we see now were alive during Ysgramors time as well

Hmm... interesting thought. Is it possible that the lifespans were affected by the poisoning and is much shorter? In other words, the Falmers have a lifespan closer to a human's now and that none of the originals survived? If not, then, even mutated and poisoned, those that are of an age to have been present in Ysgramors time in their other form, would be Snow Elves still (your species wouldn't change, only your descendents). If not, they could very well be considered a new subspecies and the original be considrered extinct.

 

[Ivory]

but how did it change them soo much, since gelebor is still alive that means that a lot of those falmer that we see now were alive during Ysgramors time as well

Incorrect. Gelebor has survived for 4 thousand years. The Falmer are not the same as he is, or rather, not from the same time period. If there are a select few that are of the past, they've lost it. The Betrayed showed no mercy to the Snow elves that lived in Dark Fall Cave and the chantry of Auriel. The Betrayed lived underground in Blackreach for who knows how long and probably continued to Breed from there. Who knows the kind of life expectancy the Betrayed have in those caves.

 

[Mookie]

Hmm... interesting thought. Is it possible that the lifespans were affected by the poisoning and is much shorter? In other words, the Falmers have a lifespan closer to a human's now and that none of the originals survived? If not, then, even mutated and poisoned, those that are of an age to have been present in Ysgramors time in their other form, would be Snow Elves still (your species wouldn't change, only your descendents). If not, they could very well be considered a new subspecies and the original be considrered extinct.

But look at the frozen falmer in the chantry of auri el
They are same like we see today.
How did a mutation ocur soo fast?

 

[Mookie]

Incorrect. Gelebor has survived for 4 thousand years. The Falmer are not the same as he is, or rather, not from the same time period. If there are a select few that are of the past, they've lost it. The Betrayed showed no mercy to the Snow elves that lived in Dark Fall Cave and the chantry of Auriel. The Betrayed lived underground in Blackreach for who knows how long and probably continued to Breed from there. Who knows the kind of life expectancy the Betrayed have in those caves.

They might have been twisted mentaly and physicaly, but I doubt that lifespan would be short.
I believe that most are still snow elves geneticaly and some even walked Skyrim and fought nords before defeat.