Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[FullmetalHeart20]

I have actual game content that supports the notion that the Dunmer pay taxes and the complete absence of any game content to contradict it. What you characterize as "complex words" and "grand arguments" in an attempt to deride them are merely the presentation of propositions using logic, reason, and observation.

There you go again with the condescending. I'm actually quite an intelligent person, but some of your posts seem to border on convoluted.

 

[Raijin]

It's not a false claim. You have failed literally at every turn to prove otherwise as you can't successfully argue that racial segregation is't a state of inequality or that Ulfric enforces racial segregation upon the Dunmer in Windhelm by restricting their residence to the Gray Quarter.

Only in your opinion. The fact is the Dunmers do have equal rights. When I break into their homes, and if caught I get arrested. If I kill a Dunmer I get a 1000 bounty over my head PLUS the guards will start attacking me. They own shops, vendors and so on. What's the inequality am I missing out on? Because they live in the ghetto? If thats the fact then I'm going to sign a petition to impeach my state governor for letting low income and poor people live in poverty stricken neighborhoods.

You can repeat yourself making a pointless and irrelevant observation as many times as you like and it won't be any less pointless and irrelevant any time that you do. First of all if there's nowhere else for them to move then why does there even need to be a segregation law and what harm is there in rescinding it? You've been told time and time again there's no expectation that Ulfric forcibly vacate homes outside the Gray Quarter which is a silly premise to setup for why the segregation law shouldn't be lifted. You've also been told about the concept of scaling in the game.

It's not pointless nor an irrelevant observation. You refuse to acknowledge that it is in fact relevant. Yes they have a choice to move, but they choose not to. As far as the segregation law that Ulfric implemented was probably a good thing. It keeps the Dunmer and Argonians from fighting each other over past history.

Aside from the fact that this isn't true it's also as irrelevant as the statement that there are no homes outside the Gray Quarter for them purchase and only further supports that there's not even a need for a segregation law to keep the Dunmer sequestered to the Gray Quarter. It would happen naturally as a consequence of their alleged poverty as a race and the lack of adequate housing outside of the Gray Quarter.

I'm starting to think that your favorite word is "Irrelevant" you seem to use it a lot when you're in a disagreement with someones post. The fact is theirs no available houses that are up for sale at the moment, and even if their was one I don't think the Dunmers can afford it. 1 already admitted that he's poor... and poor people can't afford to buy a mansion. It's not being racist or anything like that. It's a fact of life.

This is again an appeal to ignorance. A logical fallacy which you rely upon with notable frequency. You don't need any such information when NPCs tell you that the Dunmer aren't allowed to live outside the Gray Quarter.

You're avoiding the question and so I'm going to repeat myself yet again. Can you prove to me that Ulfric refuses to sell homes (Outside the Grey quarters) to the Dark elves? Because I find no such thing. I don't care about your opinion about my question. Call it "irrelevant" ignorance or even logical fallacy. You're suppose to be the lore master on this forum, and so I'm expecting you to answer even the most complicated question there is. If you can't answer it then I would respect it. Just don't go off topic and go in an avoidance.

It is evasive. For clarification, an evasive answer is one that doesn't directly answer the question. A non-evasive answer would be to the effect "No I don't oppose any non-Nord races" and "No, we accept any non-Nord that believes in the cause". The only thing you showed is that he's willing to accept you into the Stormcloaks. I didn't even deny the possibility that he'll accept any non-Nord but I did point out how such a belief is hard to reconcile with other things that the game presents to you. What exactly is your explanation as to why none of the non-Nords who clearly believe in the cause can be seen among the Stormcloak ranks?

Not sure I understand the question that you're asking me. I assume you mean to ask me why none of the non-Nords, who clearly believe in the cause, aren't physically seen in battle fighting with the Imperials? Is this what you're asking me? I want to be on the same page as you.

 

[Ozan]

In Cyrodiil proper, Khajiit are allowed in the cities. There's even a city with a Khajiit majority, Leyawiin.
In Skyrim, Khajiit aren't allowed within city walls.

That's all one's argument needs.

Oh, but One is incorrect. Has One ever heard of the Ahzirr Traajijazeri? It is a Khajiiti book about how Khajiit fight for such lands. Simply because Khajiit lives there does not mean they like who reigns over such lands.

Ignoring this, Khajiit would also like to address how comforting it is to have others defend Ozan's words without Ozan's request, albeit indirectly for some. Khajiit wishes for One to read the book and learn why many Khajiit should not trust the Colovian.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

Only in your opinion. The fact is the Dunmers do have equal rights. When I break into their homes, and if caught I get arrested. If I kill a Dunmer I get a 1000 bounty over my head PLUS the guards will start attacking me. They own shops, vendors and so on. What's the inequality am I missing out on? Because they live in the ghetto? If thats the fact then I'm going to sign a petition to impeach my state governor for letting low income and poor people live in poverty stricken neighborhoods.

This one in particular made me laugh. The Dunmer don't have equal rights if they are FORCED to live in Grey Quarter. If I said that by law all black people had to live in the slums regardless of wealth or status in society, by your logic, I would still be giving them equal rights.

And as for your proof of Dunmer being restricted to Grey Quarter I went looking around UESP.net, and I searched it using the keywords: "Skyrim dunmer windhelm grey quarter". I came up with this:

"What can you tell me about Windhelm?"

It's an old city, I can tell you that. The Palace of the Kings is ancient. It's not the friendliest place for outsiders. The Dark Elves were all forced to live in a slum called the Grey Quarter. The Argonians can't even live inside the walls. They're all stuck out on the docks. Still, Candlehearth Hall's got decent food and cheap bunks. You could do worse.

Considering Alfarinn is a Nord and seems to be neutral in this matter, I would say he is a canon and reliable source on this matter.

 

[Raijin]

Squirrel_killer- if you're going to use the carriage driver as your trump card then I'm going to use the High elf (Thalmor race mind you) Niranye as my trump card, and since shes considered neutral territory I also find her source of information to be reliable and canon.

"Are you treated as badly as the Dark Elves?"

"It was difficult at first. The Nords of this city are, at best, suspicious of outsiders. But in time I made the right friends and proved myself useful enough that they don't give me trouble anymore. The Dunmer are too proud and naive to see the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum."

So tell me how come you don't see Rolff Stone-Fist and his friend, Angrenor Once-Honored, harassing her? and calling her a Thalmor spy? How come their not making radical slurs directly to her? If anything she should be in their direct radar, since she is after all a High elf who just came in from Summerset isle.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

There Raijin goes again bringing up the Altmer when way back I corrected him on this. She is a Thieves Guild fence and therefore uses illegal and insidious means to ascertain wealth and power.

Grasping straws, are we?

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

 

[Docta Corvina]

"It was difficult at first. The Nords of this city are, at best, suspicious of outsiders. But in time I made the right friends and proved myself useful enough that they don't give me trouble anymore. The Dunmer are too proud and naive to see the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum."

As Mr. Self-Destruct alluded to above, ever really think for a moment about what she's saying here? She 'made the right friends and proved [herself] useful enough'. How do we know who exactly she's working for, who's looking out for her, who's watching her back? We don't learn a ton about her as a character aside from her apparent ties to the Thieves Guild (which comes with its own host of implications) and as has been pointed out to you ad nauseam at this point, using her as any sort of functional and fruitful comparison to the Dunmer in Windhelm is extremely problematic and not even hardly what one would call a 'trump card'.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

Squirrel_killer- if you're going to use the carriage driver as your trump card then I'm going to use the High elf (Thalmor race mind you) Niranye as my trump card, and since shes considered neutral territory I also find her source of information to be reliable and canon.

"Are you treated as badly as the Dark Elves?"

"It was difficult at first. The Nords of this city are, at best, suspicious of outsiders. But in time I made the right friends and proved myself useful enough that they don't give me trouble anymore. The Dunmer are too proud and naive to see the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum."

So tell me how come you don't see Rolff Stone-Fist and his friend, Angrenor Once-Honored, harassing her? and calling her a Thalmor spy? How come their not making radical slurs directly to her? If anything she should be in their direct radar, since she is after all a High elf who just came in from Summerset isle.

She's not a Dunmer. You can't compare them just because they're both mer. Their circumstances for coming there are completely different. Also, Thalmor are a political group, not a race.

 

[Raijin]

There Raijin goes again bringing up the Altmer when way back I corrected him on this. She is a Thieves Guild fence and therefore uses illegal and insidious means to ascertain wealth and power.

Grasping straws, are we?

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

You didn't correct me with anything. So what if shes a Thieves guild fence. She's still neutral therefor what she says is in fact valid. And besides how can you not argue over something that came from the mouth of 1 of the Dunmers? Perhaps this kind of talk Niranye was telling you about... too naive and proud.

As Mr. Self-Destruct alluded to above, ever really think for a moment about what she's saying here? She 'made the right friends and proved [herself] useful enough'. How do we know who exactly she's working for, who's looking out for her, who's watching her back? We don't learn a ton about her as a character aside from her apparent ties to the Thieves Guild (which comes with its own host of implications) and as has been pointed out to you ad nauseam at this point, using her as any sort of functional and fruitful comparison to the Dunmer in Windhelm is extremely problematic and not even hardly what one would call a 'trump card'.

Judging by Cynric Endell jail-breaking story she's definitely a member of the thieves guild. But it doesn't matter because shes still on the neutral side.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

Any need for posting that bloody three times?

Also, the Altmer is not neutral. She is siding with one of the factions of the game, clearly the Thieve's Guild. And as already stated, you don't know what other connections she has.

And what's wrong with not wanting to be underclass of another group? I guess the blacks should never have fought for their equal rights, eh?

 

[Raijin]

She's not a Dunmer. You can't compare them just because they're both mer. Their circumstances for coming there are completely different. Also, Thalmor are a political group, not a race.

What's your point behind this post if you don't mind me asking? So what if shes not a Dunmer. Shes not a Nord either. Shes a High elf. And why can't I compare them both? You would think that because shes a High elf, especially one who came in from Summerset isle that she would get 10x more harassment than the Dark elves. Remember the nords are at war with the elves.

 

[Raijin]

Any need for posting that bloody three times?

Also, the Altmer is not neutral. She is siding with one of the factions of the game, clearly the Thieve's Guild. And as already stated, you don't know what other connections she has.

And what's wrong with not wanting to be underclass of another group? I guess the blacks should never have fought for their equal rights, eh?

My ISP is giving me some plops at the moment. I've deleted the 3 posts that I made.

Yes the Altmer is neutral. Were talking about Imperial vs Stormcloak, remember? Shes not on neither side. And what gives Alfarinn more superior outcome over her? He's nothing more than a cab driver that waits on his carriage all day long, and provides services to the people of Windhelm. He probably has no idea what truly goes on inside Windhelm.

Black people aren't Dunmers so why are we even discussing about them?

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

You didn't correct me with anything. So what if shes a Thieves guild fence. She's still neutral therefor what she says is in fact valid. And besides how can you not argue over something that came from the mouth of 1 of the Dunmers? Perhaps this kind of talk Niranye was telling you about... too naive and proud.

Are you delusional? She's wealthy and considered "above" the Dunmer in the Gray Quarter solely because she's in the illegal business of fencing stolen goods for coin. You're simply dodging facts here, she can talk all she wants about how the Dunmer are too proud when the fact of the matter is that she cheats and steals to get ahead.

Anything the Dunmer say about their poverty is completely subjective, as it's clearly in response to the fact that they live in poverty. Would it appease you if they took their current position tongue-in-cheek and kissed up to Ulfric? Ulfric can't blame them for how they react to his policies, because it's his policies that create the unrest and disorder in the first place.

 

[Raijin]

Are you delusional? She's wealthy and considered "above" the Dunmer in the Gray Quarter solely because she's in the illegal business of fencing stolen goods for coin. You're simply dodging facts here, she can talk all she wants about how the Dunmer are too proud when the fact of the matter is that she cheats and steals to get ahead.

Anything the Dunmer say about their poverty is completely subjective, as it's clearly in response to the fact that they live in poverty. Would it appease you if they took their current position tongue-in-cheek and kissed up to Ulfric? Ulfric can't blame them for how they react to his policies, because it's his policies that create the unrest and disorder in the first place.

I can ask you the same exact thing... Are you delusional? No shes not wealthy. If she was she wouldn't working at her vendor all day now would she? If you want to see what wealthy people looks like go checkout the thanes in Solitude. They hire people to do most of the work for them, and still make money while they sit on their asses all day. If you listen to what she says she received the same treatment from the local Nords up until she got some new friends meaning the thieves guild. Now they leave her a lone. So what if she makes a living by selling or buying stolen goods? Whats your point? The one who's dodging facts here is you. I provided you with evidence, both video and a screenshot, and you are avoiding it all together. Sorry if it doesn't suit your standards but she does in fact count. TG fence or not she has experience of knowing what goes on inside the city.

Facts is facts my friend You can't argue with facts

 

[Docta Corvina]

I can ask you the same exact thing... Are you delusional? No shes not wealthy. If she was she wouldn't working at her vendor all day now would she? If you want to see what wealthy people looks like go checkout the thanes in Solitude. They hire people to do most of the work for them, and still make money while they sit on their asses all day. If you listen to what she says she received the same treatment from the local Nords up until she got some new friends meaning the thieves guild. Now they leave her a lone. So what if she makes a living by selling or buying stolen goods? Whats your point? The one who's dodging facts here is you. I provided you with evidence, both video and a screenshot, and you are avoiding it all together. Sorry if it doesn't suit your standards but she does in fact count. TG fence or not she has experience of knowing what goes on inside the city.

So, then, you're implicitly faulting the Dunmer for not joining the Thieves Guild and resorting to shady practices to bolster their statuses in Windhelm? You know the moment the lot of them did that, they'd be nailed for it.

Because that's our overall point about Niranye. Her circumstances are very, very different. And on top of TG connections, we don't know who else she's got ties to - unknown parties telling otherwise scrappy insular Nords to lay off of her. That's the point.

 

[Crooksin]

I can ask you the same exact thing... Are you delusional? No shes not wealthy. If she was she wouldn't working at her vendor all day now would she? If you want to see what wealthy people looks like go checkout the thanes in Solitude. They hire people to do most of the work for them, and still make money while they sit on their asses all day. If you listen to what she says she received the same treatment from the local Nords up until she got some new friends meaning the thieves guild. Now they leave her a lone. So what if she makes a living by selling or buying stolen goods? Whats your point? The one who's dodging facts here is you. I provided you with evidence, both video and a screenshot, and you are avoiding it all together. Sorry if it doesn't suit your standards but she does in fact count. TG fence or not she has experience of knowing what goes on inside the city.

I wouldn't say she's wealthy, but she certainly does well compared to some of the Nords and all of the Dumner.

There is a few reasons why she can't be compared to the situation the Dumner are in:

1. She is an Altmer

While it is odd that she doesn't receive any discrimination because of this considering the hatred of Thalmor and the like, she isn't a Dark Elf and there is no law saying she HAS to live in the poorest part of town. No one is restricting her chances of opportunity unlike the Dumner.

2. She is part of/has connections to the Thieves Guild

This is probably the biggest reason why she doesn't receive any discrimination but at the same time the Thieves Guild is looked down upon by most of Skyrim. So you are saying that the Dark Elves should abandon their morals if they want to live better and all become criminals? Then that is just another reason why you'd believe segregation is tolerable. As you've said yourself, she received the same treatment until she joined, and people are afraid of criminals.

You can't really compare her situation with the Grey Quarter because it is different no matter how you want to spin it. Dodge these facts, Raijin.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

I can ask you the same exact thing... Are you delusional? No shes not wealthy. If she was she wouldn't working at her vendor all day now would she? If you want to see what wealthy people looks like go checkout the thanes in Solitude. They hire people to do most of the work for them, and still make money while they sit on their asses all day. If you listen to what she says she received the same treatment from the local Nords up until she got some new friends meaning the thieves guild. Now they leave her a lone. So what if she makes a living by selling or buying stolen goods? Whats your point? The one who's dodging facts here is you. I provided you with evidence, both video and a screenshot, and you are avoiding it all together. Sorry if it doesn't suit your standards but she does in fact count. TG fence or not she has experience of knowing what goes on inside the city.

Facts is facts my friend You can't argue with facts

Dude, you're simply dodging the facts. You can't compare someone who works and has connections with a continent wide guild of thieves with a typical every day Dunmer who actually works and has a menial job. The only picture you provided was of a single Dunmer's subjective opinion on his people's condition in Windhelm, which is completely unrelated to the topic of Niranye to begin with. The facts are that Niranye uses illegal means to simply get by. It's appalling how fervid you are here when all you're proving is that the only way you can get by as a Mer living in Windhelm is to practice illegalities for coin.

Comparing a thief with a modest sum of money to an honest worker who has nothing is fallacious.

 

[Raijin]

So, then, you're implicitly faulting the Dunmer for not joining the Thieves Guild and resorting to shady practices to bolster their statuses in Windhelm?

Because that's our overall point about Niranye. Her set of Circumstances are very, very different. And on top of TG connections, we don't know who else she's got ties to - unknown parties telling otherwise scrappy insular Nords to lay off of her. That's the point.

Wait a min here. Are you trying to tell me that the Dunmers of Windhelm are completely innocent? Are you telling me that their pure and have done NO illegal activities whatsoever? That's funny because I remember selling 6 Skoomas (That I took from a group of bandits) to the Dunmer pawn store owner for money. To that respects their no different then the high elf, and her business with the TG. Also I had to break in some cranky old woman's house and return her stolen ring. An addition If I have 90 Speech (If my character had a golden tongue) with Fence perk I can barter with them to buy my stolen items.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

Wait a min here. Are you trying to tell me that the Dunmers of Windhelm are completely innocent? Are you telling me that their pure and have done NO illegal activities whatsoever? That's funny because I remember selling 6 Skoomas (That I took from a group of bandits) to the Dunmer pawn store owner for money. To that respects their no different then the high elf, and her business with the TG. Also I had to break in some cranky old woman's house and return her stolen ring. An addition If I have 90 Speech (If my character had a golden tongue) with Fence perk I can barter with them to buy my stolen items.

Are you seriously using game mechanics to argue your point again?

 

[Docta Corvina]

Wait a min here. Are you trying to tell me that the Dunmers of Windhelm are completely innocent? Are you telling me that their pure and have done NO illegal activities whatsoever? That's funny because I remember selling 6 Skoomas (That I took from a group of bandits) to the Dunmer pawn store owner for money. To that respects their no different then the high elf, and her business with the TG. Also I had to break in some cranky old woman's house and return her stolen ring. An addition If I have 90 Speech (If my character had a golden tongue) with Fence perk I can barter with them to buy my stolen items.

Dude...if your Speechcraft is high enough, you can sell stolen items to anyone you've invested with. That's how the game operates. What in Mara's name is your point?

If the Dunmer in Windhelm are entangled with the TG as you seem to be suggesting and are doing so completely under the radar, they must be mega failures at it because it's not bringing them the same reward and benefit as it has brought Niranye. Them's the facts.

I'm inclined to believe, based on observable aspects in game, that the Dunmer are not involved with the Guild (if they even are at all) to even remotely the same extent as Niranye. You simply can't expect us to accept that because there are miscellaneous TG quests located in Dunmer dwellings and because you can sell "hot" items to them with the Speechcraft perk's magic that that is tantamount to an explicit networking the likes of which we see with Niranye.