Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[PrisonerLizzie]

The Dunmer didn't come to Windhelm as slaves so that's a meaningless comparison. A meaningful comparison would be one where a large group of refugees was admitted to a country and went on to establish homes, lives and families there for 200 years, i.e the Irish refugees during the famines in Ireland. Unless you can provide for a situation in which something like that happened and they weren't afforded citizenship within 2 centuries you have nothing to refute the proposition that common sense dictates that we can assume that the Dunmer are citizens or have some similar legal status after such a long period of being residents of Windhelm. The irony of your attempt to compare the situation of African Americans is that their situation was borne out of a far more oppressive system of racism than the racism under Ulfric's rule. In doing so you would only have created a situation that implies that Windhelm's citizenship policies are no less racist than those that existed in the United States during the period of time to which you referred which would only compound how racist Ulfric really is by piling that on top of the segregation law.​

​

This isn't analogous. If anything it's the exact opposite. What would be analogous is if she had assumed you had been paying your rent because you had been living there without incident with your landlord for years. That's a logical assumption based on the existence of the fact that normally all tenants pay rent to the landlord to live in their apartment just as it's a logical assumption that Revyn pays taxes because of the fact that all residents pay taxes including the Dunmer. Characterizing it as a speculative assumption is about as valid as characterizing the belief that most or all of the tenants in good standing with your landlord pay rent is speculative assumption. If that's the strength of the argument you're relying upon have fun with it but it takes a close second to Raijin's delusional attempt to claim that the book that tells about Ulfric's massacre of non-combatants at Markarth isn't true even though there isn't anything in the game that implies or provides anything to infer that it is anything less than the truth. You also may as well dismiss the majority of the lore as nothing more than speculative assumptions with such a criterion and doing so places your views outside of the scope of any meaningful discussion about what the game presents to the player.

The Dunmer didn't come to Windhelm as slaves so that's a meaningless comparison. A meaningful comparison would be one where a large group of refugees was admitted to a country and went on to establish homes, lives and families there for 200 years, i.e the Irish refugees during the famines in Ireland. Unless you can provide for a situation in which something like that happened and they weren't afforded citizenship within 2 centuries you have nothing to refute the proposition that common sense dictates that we can assume that the Dunmer are citizens or have some similar legal status after such a long period of being residents of Windhelm. The irony of your attempt to compare the situation of African Americans is that their situation was borne out of a far more oppressive system of racism than the racism under Ulfric's rule. In doing so you would only have created a situation that implies that Windhelm's citizenship policies are no less racist than those that existed in the United States during the period of time to which you referred which would only compound how racist Ulfric really is by piling that on top of the segregation law.

This is a perfectly meaningful comparison because not all the Africans who came to America were brought as slaves. Some did come initially as free people of their own free will and were still not granted citizenship. After the Emancipation Proclamation there were a whole lot more who were also free but still not citizens. Still apples to apples honey. Also had you looked into it a number of the laws I mentioned also went across the board to cover any non-white races. So apply to whichever race you feel most suitable. I chose to compare the Dunmer situation to this situation because for the followers of this thread it has been done so already multiple times so why not stick with what is already established shall we.

This isn't analogous. If anything it's the exact opposite. What would be analogous is if she had assumed you had been paying your rent because you had been living there without incident with your landlord for years. That's a logical assumption based on the existence of the fact that normally all tenants pay rent to the landlord to live in their apartment just as it's a logical assumption that Revyn pays taxes because of the fact that all residents pay taxes including the Dunmer. Characterizing it as a speculative assumption is about as valid as characterizing the belief that most or all of the tenants in good standing with your landlord pay rent is speculative assumption. If that's the strength of the argument your relying upon have fun with it but it takes a close second to Raijin's delusional attempt to claim that the book that tells about Ulfric's massacre of non-combatants at Markarth isn't true even though there isn't anything in the game that implies or provides anything to infer that it is anything less than the truth. You also may as well dismiss the majority of the lore as nothing more than speculative assumptions with such a criterion and doing so places your views outside of the scope of any meaningful discussion about what the game presents to the player.

Analogous, well, now ain't that a twenty-five cent word and look you used it twice. Here's the point you clearly missed. When presented with an argument consider the source. If a character is considered a "busybody" is it somebody you really want to base your entire opinion on what they have to say? Look at the synonyms. Keep in mind that hearsay is not permissible in court because it is unreliable. Do the Dunmer complain about their taxes? Any mention from Ulfric about the Grey Quarter taxes? I personally spent a good deal of time in the Grey Quarter and didn't hear anything. Is there anything in the lore books that suggests that Ulfric is taxing them unfairly? Or do we only have the suggestions of Viola the busybody?

 

[Eidelon]

That's the point. They are citizens but they are denied equal rights because of their race. That's racism. Thanks once again for unintentionally conceding the point.
First of all you're the one claiming that they weren't citizens with absolutely nothing to support the claim other than fabrications of your mind. Second, there's this thing called "common sense" which leads normal rational people to assume that when one lives some place for almost 200 years one is probably recognized as a citizen. Third, Viola is assuming he pays taxes because all citizens pay taxes and she knows the resident Dunmer of Windhelm are citizens. She's reflecting common knowledge of all NPCs of Windhelm even if you're too dense to get that.
I've ignored nothing in your post.
The former is true and the latter is the whole point. Your empty claim that they aren't citizens completely devoid of any lore to support it is merely your wishful thinking. I on the other hand have provided lore that supports the notion that they're citizens.
Sorry but putting the word "obviously" in front of a false statement doesn't automatically make it true. You need to provide facts to support your claims if you're going to hope to validate your propositions, and you've failed to do this on any meaningful level so far.

With the exception of your character if you choose to join the Stormcloaks and aren't a Nord, the Stormcloaks are racially homogenous, i.e. they're all Nords. This is in spite of the fact that you see plenty of non-Nords on the road who say they are going to Windhelm to join the Stormcloaks. That invalidates your claim that the Stormcloaks would be willing to accept other races in general and Dunmer in particular into their ranks.

In addition if you're trying to imply that the reason that the Dunmer are segregated has anything to do with anything other than their race by claiming it's because they won't actively support the Stormcloaks you're once again wrong as the segregation law was in place prior to the Stormcloak rebellion as has been pointed out ad nauseum in this thread.
Gee the same rules aren't applied for all races in Eastmarch. Your imaginary rule is only applied to the Dunmer which makes those that enforce it, i.e. Ulfric, racist. Statements like this only reinforce the notion that you don't have a firm grasp of what racism is.
Windhelm is a capital city. Its fortification doesn't change the fact that as a capital city it's open to others in a way that a tribal stronghold is not which is why your analogy is still completely inaccurate.
No it isn't. Windhelm's sole purpose is not to house the Nords. Like any capital city it doesn't have a sole purpose. Orsimer society is based on a tribal structure which is monoethnic by nature whereas Nord society, like all the societies of the human races of Tamriel, is not. There's nothing analogous between a tribe shunning outsiders and city segregating its residents by race.
Only the Thalmor are known to take people suspected of worshiping Talos. In case it's escaped you the Dunmer are not Thalmor. For that matter neither are all Altmer which is why they're not concerned about Niranye or Nurelion and why your statement is simply wrong and does nothing to explain their attitude about the Dunmer. Further, you're attempting to pursue a line of argument that doesn't even refute that Ulfric is racist. It only explains why he is racist.
Wrong again. The Orsimer are wary of visitors to their strongholds because unlike a village or city, it's no more an area open to invitation than a fort or a private home and is why if you breach their privacy they react exactly the same way as an NPC does when you break into their home.
As stated before they're not tribal. A tribal society is a pre-state society usually based on kinship (e.g. the Orsimer chieftain is the only one that takes wives and the only one that produces offspring for the tribe). The Nords are no more tribal than the white Americans of the segregated south of the early 20th century were tribal. Further, even though the Orsimer are a tribal society, even they extend Blood-Kin status to outsiders of other races under certain circumstances. The segregation laws of Windhelm have no such analogous provision.

By the way, Ulfric's racism isn't a shared trait to all the Nords in Windhelm so it's completely improper to use the term Nords as a proxy for Ulfric as if he's the representative of the beliefs and values of all the Nords of Windhelm let alone of Skyrim.

You're entire line of argument is invalid because (1) it has no basis in observable game content or lore, (2) it's actually largely contradicted by the same, and (3) it fails to even attempt to refute that Ulfric is racist and only seeks to justify it.

Allow me to restate my point: first of all I want to point out how much of an asshole you are, Secondly this is my point: The Stormcloaks are better than the Imperials because the Thalmor allow for Extreme Religious prosecution all through skyrim. While the Stormcloak Government results only in the Minor Racial Segregation in One city. The reason the Racial discrimination is so minor is because 1 the only rule is the law against them buying a house outside of the gray quarter, 2 the gray quarter is the best the majority of the Dunmer can afford. 3 They obviously didnt buy the land for the same price a nord would. I never said that the Government of windhelm was flawless. to clarify I am still right about the analogy between Windhelm and the Orcs, they both have separate governments than the empire and therefore cannot be expected to harbor Imperial refugees, It doesnt matter how long you live somewhere, it does not make you a citizen and it is totally in Windhelms right to make all of the dunmer leave and go to Solitude. Also keep in mind that they didn't start living in Windhelm the day after the red mountain erupted, It took over Ten years for first refugees to reach Solstheim. and even longer for the Ash to expand enough to force so many Dunmer out of there homes. Actually one would assume it was recent that the Dunmer refugees came to Skyrim as in the begining of the game if you select Dunmer Hodvar assumes you are a refugee. He wouldnt say that if the magority of Refugees came to skyrim 200 years ago. There must have been some during his lifetime. The parts of my argument that do not come from lore come from my basic understanding for humanity which is what all of these issues are about. If you dont give yourself the liberty to assume that basic human characteristics translate to the game then you may as well assume that nobody in skyrim can poop because we dont see any people pooping in the game. Ofcoarse we dont take that literally and we assume that they poop the same as you or me. there is almost no discrimination in the game and even less racism but there is definitely Racial Prosecution. The only reason you kept thinking I was contradicting myself and arguing stupid points was because you had brought me so far off topic. by the way there is a huge difference between ignoring parts of my post and only replying to random sentences.

 

[Crooksin]

....there is almost no discrimination in the game and even less racism but there is definitely Racial Prosecution

I was contradicting myself and arguing stupid points

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Raijin]

That's the point. They are citizens but they are denied equal rights because of their race. That's racism. Thanks once again for unintentionally conceding the point.

That's ridiculous. They own a tavern, Stores and vendors. If you also want to include wood elves and high elves they essentially own Windhelm as far as ownership wise. Voldsea Giryon (Pirate) and Luaffyn (rogue bard) hangs out at Candleheart hall. Their not force to live in the Grey quarters, and lets not forget Idesa Sadri who lives in the house of Cruel-Sea, and is seen eating her meals at around 6PM at the Candlehearth Hall.

I guess they don't have a sign that says "Nords only" in Candlehearth Hall. They can't be a racist if they don't enforce the "Nord only" policy.

With the exception of your character if you choose to join the Stormcloaks and aren't a Nord, the Stormcloaks are racially homogenous, i.e. they're all Nords. This is in spite of the fact that you see plenty of non-Nords on the road who say they are going to Windhelm to join the Stormcloaks. That invalidates your claim that the Stormcloaks would be willing to accept other races in general and Dunmer in particular into their ranks.

Yes you're right. The Stormcloaks are racially homogenous because their nords. The army was created by Nords after the Empire sold their religion and tradition to the elves. The fact to the matter is that Galmar and Ulfric are willing to let any race either it be human/elf or beast race join them for as long as their hearts are set on skyrim. Their not looking for sellswords.

You can also ask him directly if he oppose all non-Nord races: "I oppose tyranny. I oppose those who tell me how to live, what to think, and what to believe. I'm a man. Skyrim is man's homeland. That's a fact. A fact I'm proud of. There's no shame in that. Read your history. - Taken off of Skyrim:Galmar Stone-Fist - UESPWiki

All non-Nords races can then ask Galmar if he only accepts Nords, which will make him explain: "You mistake me. I'm not saying no - just wondering about your intentions. We're not looking for sellswords. The Stormcloaks need dedicated men and women who're devoted to the cause and willing to die for it." - Taken off of Skyrim:Galmar Stone-Fist - UESPWiki

 

[Dagmar]

This is a perfectly meaningful comparison because not all the Africans who came to America were brought as slaves. Some did come initially as free people of their own free will and were still not granted citizenship.

Please cite your source for this claim. I am not aware of any credible source that supports the notion that immigration from Africa to the United States up until the Emancipation Proclamation was anything but forced immigration. Even if one were to give credibility to this claim it still is a meaningless comparison because it's not analogous to the situation of the Dunmer. I'm not aware of any credible comparison of the immigration of the Dunmer to Skyrim and the Africans to colonial America in this thread but please feel free to cite them. The fact that there might be inaccurate or inappropriate attempts to do so in this thread by no means validates them or your attempt to do so as meaningful.

After the Emancipation Proclamation there were a whole lot more who were also free but still not citizens. Still apples to apples honey. Also had you looked into it a number of the laws I mentioned also went across the board to cover any non-white races.

First, in less than 200 years since the Emancipation Proclamation all African Americans have full citizenship which speaks for itself why it's not apples to apples. Second, as noted before, claiming that the reason why they weren't given citizenship under those laws were race based only supports the notion that in Windhelm, if you insist on believing they have no citizenship after 200 years, the laws regarding the same are similarly racist and Ulfric is an even bigger racist than previously asserted because now he's not only enforcing one racist law which he could easily rescind by edict but two.

...Here's the point you clearly missed. When presented with an argument consider the source. If a character is considered a "busybody" is it somebody you really want to base your entire opinion on what they have to say?

If I missed the point it's because it's irrelevant. Viola being the source of the notion that the Dunmers of Windhelm pay taxes doesn't make the information less credible. It doesn't even remotely follow that because a person is a "busybody" that they're ignorant about the most basic facts that would be common knowledge to the population of Windhelm.

Keep in mind that hearsay is not permissible in court because it is unreliable.

First of all this isn't a court and second of all what she says isn't hearsay. Hearsay is information that is related from one source based on what that source heard from another source, i.e. it's secondary. There's absolutely nothing to indicate that Viola isn't speaking from her own direct experience and observations. Lastly hearsay isn't always unreliable which is why courts will allow admission of hearsay evidence in certain situations including when evidence is against the source's interests. If Viola has animosity towards the Dunmer she gains nothing from making a statement to you that admits they pay taxes as it confirms they're productive members of and support the population. It runs counter to her interests to do so. It also qualifies under the excited utterance exception

Lore isn't established from the game the way evidence is established in a court of law notwithstanding that you may have notions to the contrary. It's general practice to accept assertions by NPC's and documents as true unless the game also presents sources that contradict or qualify such content. If it were otherwise the majority of the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe would be invalid. This is one reason why the following argument carries no weight:

Do the Dunmer complain about their taxes? Any mention from Ulfric about the Grey Quarter taxes? I personally spent a good deal of time in the Grey Quarter and didn't hear anything. Is there anything in the lore books that suggests that Ulfric is taxing them unfairly?

Once you have an unrefuted source for information additional evidence isn't necessary. In addition the argument that because no such additional sources exist it isn't lore is an appeal to ignorance, a basic logical fallacy that's used as a crutch for those that can't produce anything better to rebut a proposition.

 

[Dagmar]

That's ridiculous. They own a tavern, Stores and vendors. If you also want to include wood elves and high elves they essentially own Windhelm as far as ownership wise. Voldsea Giryon (Pirate) and Luaffyn (rogue bard) hangs out at Candleheart hall. Their not force to live in the Grey quarters, and lets not forget Idesa Sadri who lives in the house of Cruel-Sea, and is seen eating her meals at around 6PM at the Candlehearth Hall.

Are you really going to re-argue things that you know have been refuted countless times before? It only underscores and exacerbates your complete lack of credibility in this debate when you do so. As you already know hanging out in Candelhearth Hall does nothing to counter the fact that the Dunmer are segregated to the Gray Quarter. They aren't residing in Candlehearth, one is working there and the other is giving patronage to the place. Also as previously pointed out to you Idesa is the nanny and her situation is no different than that of the black house staff in the segregated south who were allowed to live in the residence of their white employers for their employers' convenience which is why it's not evidence contradicting the fact that the Dunmer are segregated by law regarding where they are allowed to live, a fact supported by NPC dialogues that state or imply that the Dunmer are quartered there by design of the State.

You can also ask him directly if he oppose all non-Nord races: "I oppose tyranny. I oppose those who tell me how to live, what to think, and what to believe. I'm a man. Skyrim is man's homeland. That's a fact. A fact I'm proud of. There's no shame in that. Read your history. - Taken off of Skyrim:Galmar Stone-Fist - UESPWiki

All non-Nords races can then ask Galmar if he only accepts Nords, which will make him explain: "You mistake me. I'm not saying no - just wondering about your intentions. We're not looking for sellswords. The Stormcloaks need dedicated men and women who're devoted to the cause and willing to die for it." - Taken off of Skyrim:Galmar Stone-Fist - UESPWiki

In case you didn't notice, Galmar's answer is evasive. He never comes out and states he is opposed to all Non-Nord races. Similarly his answer to you regarding whether he only accepts Nords is evasive. He says he's not saying no to you. That doesn't mean that he generally doesn't admit non-Nords into the Stormcloaks, and it's hard to reconcile the fact that there are non-Nords that head to Windhelm to join but every Stormcloak you see is Nord with the notion that they welcome all non-Nords into their fold.

 

[Raijin]

Are you really going to re-argue things that you know have been refuted countless times before? It only underscores and exacerbates your complete lack of credibility in this debate when you do so. As you already know hanging out in Candelhearth Hall does nothing to counter the fact that the Dunmer are segregated to the Gray Quarter. They aren't residing in Candlehearth, one is working there and the other is giving patronage to the place. Also as previously pointed out to you Idesa is the nanny and her situation is no different than that of the black house staff in the segregated south who were allowed to live in the residence of their white employers for their employers' convenience which is why it's not evidence contradicting the fact that the Dunmer are segregated by law regarding where they are allowed to live, a fact supported by NPC dialogues that state or imply that the Dunmer are quartered there by design of the State.

You're the one that keeps bringing this stuffs up. I have an obligation to rebuttal the accusation that the Dunmers aren't given equal rights in Windhelm when it's in fact a false claim. It's a pretty lame reason to call Ulfric and the Stormcloaks a racist. And the segregation and the Dunmers are getting quite old too. I don't know how many times I've repeated myself, but the fact is theirs no such roam for the Dunmers to live besides the Grey quarters. It's better then nothing. You expect Ulfric to kick the nords out of their own home so that the Dark elves can live inside? Ain't going to happen and besides I don't think the Dunmers can afford it either. One Dark elf in particular said that hes saving his gold so he can return back to Morrowind to live the high end. Perhaps you can provide me with a lore that can show me the exact blueprint of Windhelm and pinpoint all of the available mansions that are up for sale. Can you prove to me that Ulfric refuses to sell homes to the Dark elves? Because I find no such thing. Even Google is giving me a hard time finding it.

In case you didn't notice, Galmar's answer is evasive. He never comes out and states he is opposed to all Non-Nord races. Similarly his answer to you regarding whether he only accepts Nords is evasive. He says he's not saying no to you. That doesn't mean that he generally doesn't admit non-Nords into the Stormcloaks, and it's hard to reconcile the fact that there are non-Nords that head to Windhelm to join but every Stormcloak you see is Nord with the notion that they welcome all non-Nords into their fold.

No it's not evasive. You seem to have a problem with accepting the fact that Galmar welcomes all race to his Stormcloak army. I showed you proof, and you denied it.

 

[Dagmar]

Allow me to restate my point

You're not restating your point, you've abandoned it completely. This wasn't the proposition I was addressing. This was:

...although racial division does occur in windhelm it happens for a good reason. Dunmer are refugees and poor. They are not entirely citizens of Windhelm so there wellbeing is the least of ulfrics concernsn also they are pretty poor, Keep in mind that the Orcs are extremely wary of outsiders so whos to blame the Windhelm nords for not wanting to let the Dunmer sleep on their couches. (this is analogy, Obviously couches are not common in skyrim)Hell they where probably mad that Ulric would even let them into the city. Also keep in mind that they can leave if they want.

I pointed out that every point you tried to assert in defense of why it exists for a good reason was invalid. They're not all poor. They're citizens of Windhelm as functionally they do everything that any other citizen does to merit the status and to argue otherwise based on their race is simply bootstrapping and not a good reason for their segregation. The reference to the Orsimer is meaningless and leaving is not a practical option.

You then went on a largely pointless attempt to argue why they can't be citizens which only underscored that there's no good reason to segregate them unless you consider the perpetuation of racism itself is a good reason to do so.

Secondly this is my point: The Stormcloaks are better than the Imperials because the Thalmor allow for Extreme Religious prosecution all through skyrim. While the Stormcloak Government results only in the Minor Racial Segregation in One city. The reason the Racial discrimination is so minor is because 1 the only rule is the law against them buying a house outside of the gray quarter

This is a viable starting position to take and nothing more needs to be said about why your character can live with the fact that Ulfric enforces the segregation law of Windhelm which is why taking up the following tired and incorrect positions is completely unnecessary:

...2 the gray quarter is the best the majority of the Dunmer can afford.

Even if this were true it's not a reason to have a segregation law. Economic disparity for a wave of immigrants from one race or culture naturally leads to the formation of ghettos. A segregation law would be entirely unnecessary in this situation and would only serve create an environment where prosperous Dunmer, who do exist in Windhelm, would be prevented from moving out of the Gray Quarter.

3 They obviously didnt buy the land for the same price a nord would.

Once again, putting the word "obviously" doesn't make your false statements magically true. Where is the lore and game content to support this claim? It doesn't exist.

...to clarify I am still right about the analogy between Windhelm and the Orcs

No you're not.

...they both have separate governments than the empire and therefore cannot be expected to harbor Imperial refugees...

The Orsimer don't have a government. As I noted before it's a tribal society which is a pre-state society and there's no expectation that Windhelm harbor refugees. Regardless of whether you want to acknowledge that the Dunmer are citizens of the city the game shows you that functionally that is exactly what they are. They do as much as the next resident of Windhelm to deserve citizenship and the only thing one can point to that substantially differentiates them from any other resident is their race. Arguing that they aren't citizens by disqualifying that possibility because of their race, which is all you have, isn't a good reason to maintain the segregation law. Saying that racial segregation is justified because they aren't citizens and then asserting they aren't citizens because of their race is nothing but bootstrapping.

...Also keep in mind that they didn't start living in Windhelm the day after the red mountain erupted, It took over Ten years for first refugees to reach Solstheim. and even longer for the Ash to expand enough to force so many Dunmer out of there homes.

This is irrelevant. The Dunmer refugees arrived in Skyrim in 4E 20 as established by the Decree of the Monument which was posted at Refugees Rest in that year and is why the following is untrue:

Actually one would assume it was recent that the Dunmer refugees came to Skyrim as in the begining of the game if you select Dunmer Hodvar assumes you are a refugee. He wouldnt say that if the magority of Refugees came to skyrim 200 years ago.

The Dunmer arrived approximately 181 years ago and reducing the their time in Skryrim and Windhelm by 19 years really isn't relevant to the point that they've been living in Windhelm for a very long time.

There must have been some during his lifetime. The parts of my argument that do not come from lore come from my basic understanding for humanity which is what all of these issues are about.

You haven't made any statements about what particular basic understandings of humanity you profess support what you've asserted so how is anyone supposed to think that anything that you meant to support by the same in the absence of any lore is anything but your opinion with nothing to validate it?

...there is almost no discrimination in the game and even less racism but there is definitely Racial Prosecution.

This statement is just further evidence that you don't really understand what racism is. If there is racial prosecution there is by inference racism.

The only reason you kept thinking I was contradicting myself and arguing stupid points was because you had brought me so far off topic.

No one brings anyone off topic. You go there of your own volition and whether the Dunmer are as a practical matter citizens of Windhelm was a central premise to your flawed argument that there are good reasons for their segregation.

... by the way there is a huge difference between ignoring parts of my post and only replying to random sentences.

Again I haven't ignored parts of your post other than irrelevant statements about bowel movements. I have and continue to address your actual points.

 

[Dagmar]

You're the one that keeps bringing this stuffs up. I have an obligation to rebuttal the accusation that the Dunmers aren't given equal rights in Windhelm when it's in fact a false claim.

It's not a false claim. You have failed literally at every turn to prove otherwise as you can't successfully argue that racial segregation is't a state of inequality or that Ulfric enforces racial segregation upon the Dunmer in Windhelm by restricting their residence to the Gray Quarter.

It's a pretty lame reason to call Ulfric and the Stormcloaks a racist.

Since when is it lame to call someone racist when their actions are racist? It's nothing more than an accurate assessment of the situation.

I don't know how many times I've repeated myself, but the fact is theirs no such roam for the Dunmers to live besides the Grey quarters. It's better then nothing. You expect Ulfric to kick the nords out of their own home so that the Dark elves can live inside?

You can repeat yourself making a pointless and irrelevant observation as many times as you like and it won't be any less pointless and irrelevant any time that you do. First of all if there's nowhere else for them to move then why does there even need to be a segregation law and what harm is there in rescinding it? You've been told time and time again there's no expectation that Ulfric forcibly vacate homes outside the Gray Quarter which is a silly premise to setup for why the segregation law shouldn't be lifted. You've also been told about the concept of scaling in the game.

...and besides I don't think the Dunmers can afford it either.

Aside from the fact that this isn't true it's also as irrelevant as the statement that there are no homes outside the Gray Quarter for them purchase and only further supports that there's not even a need for a segregation law to keep the Dunmer sequestered to the Gray Quarter. It would happen naturally as a consequence of their alleged poverty as a race and the lack of adequate housing outside of the Gray Quarter.

Can you prove to me that Ulfric refuses to sell homes to the Dark elves? Because I find no such thing.

This is again an appeal to ignorance. A logical fallacy which you rely upon with notable frequency. You don't need any such information when NPCs tell you that the Dunmer aren't allowed to live outside the Gray Quarter.

No it's not evasive. You seem to have a problem with accepting the fact that Galmar welcomes all race to his Stormcloak army. I showed you proof, and you denied it.

It is evasive. For clarification, an evasive answer is one that doesn't directly answer the question. A non-evasive answer would be to the effect "No I don't oppose any non-Nord races" and "No, we accept any non-Nord that believes in the cause". The only thing you showed is that he's willing to accept you into the Stormcloaks. I didn't even deny the possibility that he'll accept any non-Nord but I did point out how such a belief is hard to reconcile with other things that the game presents to you. What exactly is your explanation as to why none of the non-Nords who clearly believe in the cause can be seen among the Stormcloak ranks?

 

[HanfDJ]

It's best to get both sides of the story, and besides Brunwulf is nothing more than a hypocrite. He goes around talking trash about how Ulfric is this and that... and what do you know? Hes enjoying a free meal inside the palace of the kings while Ulfric is sitting on his throne. I never once seen him in the Grey quaters inside their tavern. Instead of see him at the "nord" tavern.

If Ulfric is a racist then so is everyone else in Skyrim. Look at the way they treat their cat people guests... like garbage. Their not allowed inside the city.

I don't wish to argue over hypocrisy, Brunwolf was the war hero I was talking about (He is a veteran of the Great War). He stands up for the Dark Elves and the Argonians in Windhelm, he may not go to the same tavern, (which I could understand, the Nord tavern may be nicer since it isn't in the gray quarters) but he does help the other races. I'm not trying to say all Stormcloacks are racist, but I feel like most of the time actions are far greater than words; and if Ulfric truely welcomed newcomers there shouldn't be a separate quarter for non-Nords in Windhelm. I also feel like racism is something happens all the time regardless if your an Imperial or Stormcloack. But, inequality is something that really irritates me, so to fight for a Yarl and having a city where inequality between quarters is prominent simply goes against what I believe is right. (I will say I know inequality is prominent in almost every city but usually it is divided by Capitol not race)

 

[Rex Prime]

I guess in your alternate reality apartheid isn't considered racism.

At the first i didn't know what you meant by apartheid, English is my second language (what a noob am i), guess you are right..I missed that point, Ulfric Stormcloak has some racism in him but it's not like he will go killing any non-nord or trash talk them, but he may not defend them or give a s*** to what they want or what they need.

I guess in your alternate reality

i think i was playing too much alternate reality games.

I really want to throw my opinion about the empire beheading you in the internet, i think it shouldn't be used as an excuse by any Stormcloak supporter, the same way many of the Stormcloaks are racist but not all of them, not all the Imperials are noble war heroes, Hardvar (i think i spelled the name incorrectly) didn't like you being beheaded, but he must always must lesson the the order of a higher ranking Imperial, so i disagree with beheading you with no reason as an excuse for the Imperials are bad. I am trying not to be biased on something here.

 

[PrisonerLizzie]

Please cite your source for this claim. I am not aware of any credible source that supports the notion that immigration from Africa to the United States up until the Emancipation Proclamation was anything but forced immigration. Even if one were to give credibility to this claim it still is a meaningless comparison because it's not analogous to the situation of the Dunmer. I'm not aware of any credible comparison of the immigration of the Dunmer to Skyrim and the Africans to colonial America in this thread but please feel free to cite them. The fact that there might be inaccurate or inappropriate attempts to do so in this thread by no means validates them or your attempt to do so as meaningful.
First, in less than 200 years since the Emancipation Proclamation all African Americans have full citizenship which speaks for itself why it's not apples to apples. Second, as noted before, claiming that the reason why they weren't given citizenship under those laws were race based only supports the notion that in Windhelm, if you insist on believing they have no citizenship after 200 years, the laws regarding the same are similarly racist and Ulfric is an even bigger racist than previously asserted because now he's not only enforcing one racist law which he could easily rescind by edict but two.
If I missed the point it's because it's irrelevant. Viola being the source of the notion that the Dunmers of Windhelm pay taxes doesn't make the information less credible. It doesn't even remotely follow that because a person is a "busybody" that they're ignorant about the most basic facts that would be common knowledge to the population of Windhelm.
First of all this isn't a court and second of all what she says isn't hearsay. Hearsay is information that is related from one source based on what that source heard from another source, i.e. it's secondary. There's absolutely nothing to indicate that Viola isn't speaking from her own direct experience and observations. Lastly hearsay isn't always unreliable which is why courts will allow admission of hearsay evidence in certain situations including when evidence is against the source's interests. If Viola has animosity towards the Dunmer she gains nothing from making a statement to you that admits they pay taxes as it confirms they're productive members of and support the population. It runs counter to her interests to do so. It also qualifies under the excited utterance exception

Lore isn't established from the game the way evidence is established in a court of law notwithstanding that you may have notions to the contrary. It's general practice to accept assertions by NPC's and documents as true unless the game also presents sources that contradict or qualify such content. If it were otherwise the majority of the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe would be invalid. This is one reason why the following argument carries no weight:
Once you have an unrefuted source for information additional evidence isn't necessary. In addition the argument that because no such additional sources exist it isn't lore is an appeal to ignorance, a basic logical fallacy that's used as a crutch for those that can't produce anything better to rebut a proposition.

Please cite your source for this claim. I am not aware of any credible source that supports the notion that immigration from Africa to the United States up until the Emancipation Proclamation was anything but forced immigration. Even if one were to give credibility to this claim it still is a meaningless comparison because it's not analogous to the situation of the Dunmer. I'm not aware of any credible comparison of the immigration of the Dunmer to Skyrim and the Africans to colonial America in this thread but please feel free to cite them. The fact that there might be inaccurate or inappropriate attempts to do so in this thread by no means validates them or your attempt to do so as meaningful.

You mean just like your repeated attempts to invalidate my argument simply by screeching loudly that it is invalid have failed to do so? The fact that you choose not to understand and subsequently refuse to admit that you have made an error are not my problem. (Which I suspect is the REAL reason you missed the point entirely, by design and not at all by it be irrelevant as it was quite relevant.) By the way here is proof that you asked for citing that some came over not as slaves. That link will lead you to views of court documents ect documenting one man's life however you can also search under terms like sharecroppers and indentured servitude. Neither of which were slavery.

There's absolutely nothing to indicate that Viola isn't speaking from her own direct experience and observations.

And what observations are those what direct experiences are those? OR is it possible as the nature of a busybody character she would just be going around spouting off about things she knows really not much or nothing at all? She's all for implicating Wuunfurth (which was wrong) and Sadri (which was wrong) without much other then circumstantial evidence. She's a trouble maker and I'm forced to question her motives


Lore isn't established from the game the way evidence is established in a court of law notwithstanding that you may have notions to the contrary. It's general practice to accept assertions by NPC's and documents as true unless the game also presents sources that contradict or qualify such content. If it were otherwise the majority of the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe would be invalid. This is one reason why the following argument carries no weight:
Once you have an unrefuted source for information additional evidence isn't necessary. In addition the argument that because no such additional sources exist it isn't lore is an appeal to ignorance, a basic logical fallacy that's used as a crutch for those that can't produce anything better to rebut a proposition.

So all you are really saying is that you've got nothing. NO evidence, nobody else complaining about their taxes, just the word of one unreliable witness to go on. Very good. Please tell me you aren't a cop.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

Someone needs to learn how to quote posts.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

Personally, I agree about Viola. However obvious it is weather the Dunmer pay taxes or not, she is the only one who says anything about it. She's not exactly a lore master and might be jumping to conclusions.
As for racism, I guess I can understand the defense people have for Ulfric. Plenty of people in our past history had ugly traits that were acceptable at the time. I believe it's called values dissonance. He's short sighted and power hungry, but the racism is just a product of his time.
Also, about Hadvar needing to follow the order for your execution? Any working military depends on following the chain of command. He can't be blamed for that any more than a Stormcloack soldier.
Finally, I'd like to point out that Nords are supposed to be loyal and honorable. When Chrodiil, the heart of their Empire, takes the full force of the Great War so soon after the Oblivion Crisis, do the Nords really have a right to just abandon them? The treaty conditions for ending it are based around land and faith. The Dominion couldn't take the land, and faith is almost impossible to stop. The only thing they really gain from the WGC is humans fighting each other. Hmmm. I wonder how that could end.

 

[Dagmar]

You mean just like your repeated attempts to invalidate my argument simply by screeching loudly that it is invalid have failed to do so? The fact that you choose not to understand and subsequently refuse to admit that you have made an error are not my problem.

I did invalidate your comparison, which isn't hard to do because it's so transparently flawed. The forced immigration as slaves isn't the same as willing immigration by refugees as free people. The fact that you lack the capacity to grasp that reality doesn't change it from being so anymore than a creationist's inability to grasp the concept of evolution makes evolution less a part of science. I repeated the invalidation of your feeble pseudo-analogy because you did absolutely nothing to rebut it and still have not done so.

By the way here is proof that you asked for citing that some came over not as slaves. That link will lead you to views of court documents ect documenting one man's life however you can also search under terms like sharecroppers and indentured servitude. Neither of which were slavery.

This only proves that you failed to grasp what the article you've cited states. The article actually supports the historical fact that Africans during the time of colonial America came here by forced migration. Whether you call them indentured servants or slaves is irrelevant. As the article states they did not come over as free people. All you've proven with that article is that you were wrong in your assertion that Africans prior to the Emancipation Proclamation came to America of their own will and as free men.

And what observations are those what direct experiences are those?

The observations of an average citizen of Windhelm who knows very basic things about life in the city such as the fact that everyone pays taxes.

OR is it possible as the nature of a busybody character she would just be going around spouting off about things she knows really not much or nothing at all? She's all for implicating Wuunfurth (which was wrong) and Sadri (which was wrong) without much other then circumstantial evidence. She's a trouble maker and I'm forced to question her motives

Anything is possible but that's entirely speculative, and as was pointed out before, in the absence of contradictory content, the content presented by the game is lore regardless of whether your transparent biases wish it to be otherwise. We know her conclusions about Wuunfurth are wrong. She is actually completely correct about Sadri. He bought stolen goods which turned out to be hers.

So all you are really saying is that you've got nothing. NO evidence, nobody else complaining about their taxes, just the word of one unreliable witness to go on. Very good. Please tell me you aren't a cop.

No, I am saying you have nothing but pure speculation dependent on an appeal to ignorance which renders it invalid. I have lore which is evidence and 100 times more than what you have because 100 times zero is still zero. The fact that you made the last infantile comment only emphasizes that you lack the capacity to understand what's been explained to you. The standards for establishing lore aren't the standards for admission of evidence in court or enforcing the law. By your standards we would have to discard the majority of the lore. If that's the way you want your own personal Elder Scrolls Universe to work that's your prerogative but it renders anything you try to assert by relying on that unconventional practice worthless in terms of discussing the game with players who accept the lore for what it is.

 

[Dagmar]

Personally, I agree about Viola. However obvious it is weather the Dunmer pay taxes or not, she is the only one who says anything about it. She's not exactly a lore master and might be jumping to conclusions.

None of the content comes from "lore masters" whatever you might mean by that term. The overwhelming majority of the lore come from NPC's that are not "lore masters" and books written by citizens Tamriel who are not "lore masters". You can speculate that lore content of NPC's is incorrect for any number of reasons but that puts you in the same school of people that like to pretend that the fact that Ulfric massacred non-combatants at Markarth is propoganda because it's single sourced. If you want to discount what she says because she isn't a "lore master" you may as well discount large chunks of the lore of the Elder Scrolls Universe because a lot of it is single sourced.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

None of the content comes from "lore masters" whatever you might mean by that term. The overwhelming majority of the lore come from NPC's that are not "lore masters" and books written by citizens Tamriel who are not "lore masters". You can speculate that lore content of NPC's is incorrect for any number of reasons but that puts you in the same school of people that like to pretend that the fact that Ulfric massacred non-combatants at Markarth is propoganda because it's single sourced. If you want to discount what she says because she isn't a "lore master" you may as well discount large chunks of the lore of the Elder Scrolls Universe because a lot of it is single sourced.

That's just it. To assume that a NPC is right just because Bethesda made it is just as short sighted as dismissing canon. Viola is one character. Would you just trust the word of some random stranger?

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

I have lore which is evidence and 100 times more than what you have because 100 times zero is still zero.

So you have nothing then?
In all seriousness, I'm all for correcting misconceptions and flawed reasoning. However, you're always using these complex words and grand arguments, as if you want to trip people up so you can tear into them some more. You're sounding very pompous and condescending when you do that. This makes me angry.

 

[Dagmar]

...To assume that a NPC is right just because Bethesda made it is just as short sighted as dismissing canon...

If Bethesda made it, it is canon. I'm not sure what you are trying to say by making such a contradictory statement. It would be one thing if we had someone else asserting that the Dunmer don't pay taxes but we don't. What we do have is a some players making that assertion out of thin air and then trying to discredit Viola's statement because it's inconvenient to their fabrication that the Dunmer are freeloaders, just like what happened at Markarth is inconvenient for those would prefer not to have light cast on that aspect of Ulfric's character.

...Viola is one character. Would you just trust the word of some random stranger?

Everyone you meet is a stranger intially. Viola is no more a stranger to your character than any other NPC and there's no reason to discount what she says based on her relationship status to you.

 

[Dagmar]

So you have nothing then?
In all seriousness, I'm all for correcting misconceptions and flawed reasoning. However, you're always using these complex words and grand arguments, as if you want to trip people up so you can tear into them some more. You're sounding very pompous and condescending when you do that. This makes me angry.

I have actual game content that supports the notion that the Dunmer pay taxes and the complete absence of any game content to contradict it. What you characterize as "complex words" and "grand arguments" in an attempt to deride them are merely the presentation of propositions using logic, reason, and observation.