Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Dram]

They won't ignore it. They will just chose their option, not the one we choose.

However, their option will be a logical one. A logical conclusion to the events prior to this. Hence why you can ask yourself what the outcome could be.

Hence the answer being the question "Why does what I think matter in the end?"

Welp, then you're wasting your time in a thread like this, my friend.

 

[Raijin]

Not yet they haven't. Quite frankly you have no case here because it's obvious for all to see how the Stormcloaks don't like having what they call 'outsiders' around. If you will get off your knees and look at how much suffering 'Jarl' Ulfric's leadership has caused you might understand.

You do realize that the so called "Suffering" that supposedly Ulfric has caused was ignited by the weakness of the Empire after the great war. The poor leadership of Emperor Titus Mede II. If Ulfric caused so much suffering then you can certainly blame it on the Empire for being the cause.

The Stormcloaks was born the very moment that the Emperor signed the treaty that banned the worship of Talos.

 

[Anouck]

You don't even make sense half the time, I don't know if this is normal, but it makes me wonder how Imperials debate here. If you're an example.

You should go read the posts written by DrunkenMage. He is probably the best debater on the Imperial side this thread ever had.

How about you learn to read? Calm down caps lock, why must Imperial supporters resort to using all capitals when they're debating a weak point? It doesn't make your argument stronger.

It is not an Imperial thing. It is something I told many people before in this threat.

 

[Dram]

I did post a response actually, furthermore, the problem with his links is they're being presented out of context. This person said this and that, well good however I can say that Nenalata will be the next Empress of Tamriel however, what's my context? Is that what I really meant or was that part of more dialogue.

You're obviously new to those types of links. They're direct from the game files.

They're not out of context, if you don't understand something, say so and I would have explained it. Instead of trying to discredit my links.

I don't think you understand:

Sources only make sense if they back up your argument. If the opposition uses them, you can just type full caps and say they're out of context or false.

 

[Dram]

How about you learn to read? Calm down caps lock, why must Imperial supporters resort to using all capitals when they're debating a weak point? It doesn't make your argument stronger.

It is not an Imperial thing. It is something I told many people before in this threat.

 

[Jorrvaskr]

You do realize that the so called "Suffering" that supposedly Ulfric has caused was ignited by the weakness of the Empire after the great war. The poor leadership of Emperor Titus Mede II. If Ulfric caused so much suffering then you can certainly blame it on the Empire for being the cause.

The Stormcloaks was born the very moment that the Emperor signed the treaty that banned the worship of Talos.

They blame the Stormcloaks for everything. They don't bother even looking that many Nords wanted the Empire out of their lands before the Great War.

But as I prepared to leave Skyrim, I could feel a change in the air, sense the trepidation of some of the good Nord people. Many seemed unhappy with the Empire's continued presence in their land. And the outlawing of the worship of Talos as the Ninth Divine - a stipulation of the White-Gold Concordat, the peace treaty between the Empire and Aldmeri Dominion - has only strengthened that division. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Skyrim's_Rule

The want to leave the Empire, was before the Great War if the White-Gold Concordat only strengthened the movement.

 

[Jorrvaskr]

The only whore that I see is the Empire and their supporters.

True.

They say Ulfric merely wants the throne: Some say Ulfric desires to be king and nothing more... have they not seen that his anger floats on a sea of tears?

They say Ulfric doesn't care about Talos: Ulfric prays for strength. The man visits the Temple of Talos to pray, how is that not caring.

They say Ulfric only cares for war and self glory: But the day words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed.

"I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn." - Ulfric Stormcloak

 

[W'rkncacnter]

The only winning move is to not "play". Let them fight their silly war without you.

slightly off topic rant here.


This is the worst attitude a person can have. Video game or not, doing nothing to lend your aid to a situation is just as bad as joining the Thalmor. You are part of the Empire and become a part of Skyrim when you decide to take the Mantle of Dragonborn and are accepted by its people. Are people after the war in game debasing you? Is the side you won for treating you beneath them? Or are they raising your status in the Empire/Stormcloaks and gifting you with honorable weaponry and welcoming you into their ranks further?

Are the citizens who supported your side calling you a lackey? Or did you protect the lives of countless others. By doing nothing, and this is in the perspective of the game's world, after becoming Dragonborn you could save MANY lives on both sides by helping end the war quickly and efficently.

I'm sorry but I don't care what side a person takes in the game, and I am well aware that it's just a game. However I cannot stand when someone thinks doing nothing is the "Best" route for them. By doing nothing, you help prolong the war and end lives. Everything has a consequence. People should do well to remember that.

(Also I'm sorry if this seems like a direct insult, it's not intended to be. I'm speaking in general.)

Rant's over. Sorry, just get tired of seeing the "lolnotmyproblem" attitude that plagues humanity irl.

You missed my reference to "Wargames". Tic-Tac-Toe? I suppose I could have also referenced 7 Samurai where Kambei states that he has never won a battle. Not meaning that he hasn't been victorious but instead stating that all battle brings loss and grief.

I'm not a pacifist by any means, but I think one should be very careful to count the cost of battle before engaging in it. It is not something to be done lightly.

In this case, I feel that both sides are blaming the other for all the ills in the land. 700+ pages in this thread have been unsuccessful in determining the "righteous" side. Both sides have good points and bad points. By picking a side the player essentially chooses a winner through war. Why is diplomacy not an option? We are forced into a false dichotomy by the game developers. That is why I say the only way to win is not to play. Not because I am apathetic to the struggle, but because I don't believe in a single "this side or that side" option in this situation. I choose the third option (which would hopefully result in less death) even though I cannot play through as a diplomat I can refuse to pick a side.

 

[NENALATA]

Jorrvaskr said: ↑

NENALATA said: ↑

I did post a response actually, furthermore, the problem with his links is they're being presented out of context. This person said this and that, well good however I can say that Nenalata will be the next Empress of Tamriel however, what's my context? Is that what I really meant or was that part of more dialogue.​

You're obviously new to those types of links. They're direct from the game files.

They're not out of context, if you don't understand something, say so and I would have explained it. Instead of trying to discredit my links.​

I don't think you understand:

Sources only make sense if they back up your argument. If the opposition uses them, you can just type full caps and say they're out of context or false.

But that's the thing, I never tried to discredit your links, don't need to.

Who cares what this or that person said? That's their OPINION.

I'm not new to anything, so stop being pretentious.

Your logic basically is, "I have no argument, so here are so links about what a bunch of NPCs said."

Never said they were false, just twisted.

 

[NENALATA]

Oh Yes! Look everyone, the voices of reason have shown up to put an end to the pain and suffering of the world.

Look, not one of you righteous folks did anything a couple of posts ago when this 'dude' was calling me out and in the end my argument(s) still stand. If you have chosen to stop debating over it, I'll just take my winnings and move on.

So don't tell me about being brainless or using Caps especially when no one is actually reading what I type and just nit picking because you know I'm right and I didn't start it but I did finish it.

Calling someone 'twisted' and saying stuff like, "I don't know what you're going on about" is not arguing. Caps might be considered yelling however at least I was replying to the argument and not calling someone names.

 

[Jeremius]

Jorrvaskr said: ↑

NENALATA said: ↑​

I did post a response actually, furthermore, the problem with his links is they're being presented out of context. This person said this and that, well good however I can say that Nenalata will be the next Empress of Tamriel however, what's my context? Is that what I really meant or was that part of more dialogue.​

You're obviously new to those types of links. They're direct from the game files.

​

They're not out of context, if you don't understand something, say so and I would have explained it. Instead of trying to discredit my links.​

I don't think you understand:

Sources only make sense if they back up your argument. If the opposition uses them, you can just type full caps and say they're out of context or false.

But that's the thing, I never tried to discredit your links, don't need to.

Who cares what this or that person said? That's their OPINION.

I'm not new to anything, so stop being pretentious.

Your logic basically is, "I have no argument, so here are so links about what a bunch of NPCs said."

Never said they were false, just twisted.

Not only that, but I believe DrunkenMage said something about Stormcloak supporters saying negative things about Ulfric, Including one JARL.

 

[NENALATA]

Not only that, but I believe DrunkenMage said something about Stormcloak supporters saying negative things about Ulfric, Including one JARL.

He did. I'm primarily a Thalmor supporter anyways

I just help the Imperials out on occasion.

DrunkenMage is the one to talk to if want the best answer about all things Imperial. I'll be honest, I do have some reservations about the Empire, however I still think the Dominion and Empire should just try to get along.

Both are needed really. One faction should not rule all of Tamriel.

Ah well, so tired, so sleepy. Time to jump back into the fire pit (Work - IT Customer Support).

 

[Anouck]

I am not responsible for the image or message posted by Dram. But the way he voiced his opinion regarding the use of caps lock, is something I agree on. And that has nothing to do with Nena. I've brought up the use of caps in numerous posts written to several members.
This thread isn't the responsibility of anyone in particular. I wasn't very active in here anymore, and don't see why I would come back here unless I feel like doing so.

Now, I did post something several pages back. I won't quote the thing, since I remember very well what was in that message. I wrote that I, as an Imperial, will try to defend that faction. Why? Not for the sake of doing so - but because I currently think they are the better option. However, that does not mean I am going to deny arguments.

You can say what you want about this 'new dude' - as you described him. But he came up with better arguments for the Stormcloak cause than many others who have been debating in here before. That includes Ozan, Sven and a bunch of others who haven't been active in this thread for quite a while now.

Like I said: I am not going to deny facts; I am not going to deny a good argument when I read one. This guy made very very good points. When I debate, I usually debate with people about the interpretation of lore and/or the moralistic side of it. DrunkenMage is more the guy with very strict knowledge on lore.
Personally, when it comes down to lore I cannot beat Jorrvaskr. Is that a disaster? No. I am actually glad there is a person in here who teaches me things I wasn't aware of before. He and Raijin are people who know what they are talking about. And I am not going to make myself look like a fool by coming up with arguments that make no sense - desperately trying to prove the opposition wrong. For the opposition could end up being right. I've shifted between Stormcloaks and Imperials before, and who knows; I might shift again. I base decisions on knowledge. And if someone can tell me something I wasn't aware of before; or offer me a different perspective on things, then I am more than happy to accept that.

I am not afraid to be wrong....

 

[Raijin]

True.

They say Ulfric merely wants the throne: Some say Ulfric desires to be king and nothing more... have they not seen that his anger floats on a sea of tears?

They say Ulfric doesn't care about Talos: Ulfric prays for strength. The man visits the Temple of Talos to pray, how is that not caring.

They say Ulfric only cares for war and self glory: But the day words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed.

"I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn." - Ulfric Stormcloak

Skyrim cannot survive without a strong and an experience leader. Elisif cannot handle these kind of task without depending on someone. Shes far too dependent on her steward and General Tullius. They politically run all of Solitude. She rather cozy up to the thalmor by taking an advantage of their parties. If she was to become High Queen I can see her handing over Skyrim to the Thalmor, since they've already seduced her to the life of luxury by inviting her their parties at the Thalmor embassy. Everything that Ulfric says about Elisif is true.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c346c
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c346d

Oh and the reason why the Empire refused to give Ufric a fair trial is because they don't want to be exposed.

 

[Jeremius]

True.

They say Ulfric merely wants the throne: Some say Ulfric desires to be king and nothing more... have they not seen that his anger floats on a sea of tears?

They say Ulfric doesn't care about Talos: Ulfric prays for strength. The man visits the Temple of Talos to pray, how is that not caring.

They say Ulfric only cares for war and self glory: But the day words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed.

"I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn." - Ulfric Stormcloak

Skyrim cannot survive without a strong and an experience leader. Elisif cannot handle these kind of task without depending on someone. Shes far too dependent on her steward and General Tullius. They politically run all of Solitude. She rather cozy up to the thalmor by taking an advantage of their parties. If she was to become High Queen I can see her handing over Skyrim to the Thalmor, since they've already seduced her to the life of luxury by inviting her their parties at the Thalmor embassy. Everything that Ulfric says about Elisif is true.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c346c
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c346d

Oh and the reason why the Empire refused to give Ufric a fair trial is because they don't want to be exposed.

You can Blame Ulfric For Elisif's actions as Jarl, considering she would not be in that position without him killing Torygg.

you can also blame him for Thongvor Silverblood's desire to enslave the Forsworn as Jarl, which is racist, or at the best, Cultural discrimination.

 

[Raijin]

You can Blame Ulfric For Elisif's actions as Jarl, considering she would not be in that position without him killing Torygg.

you can also blame him for Thongvor Silverblood's desire to enslave the Forsworn as Jarl, which is racist, or at the best, Cultural discrimination.

Why should I blame Ulfric for Elisif actions as Jarl? Elisif is an adult. Whatever she does shes responsible for. Torgg was not acting like a High King but rather a spoiled noble then to rule his country.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c0fd3

Torygg wasn't even a good High King. Ulfric did right by killing him.

As far as Thongvor silver-bloods goes...

Theirs already slavery going on while Igmund is Jarl. After all it was a Forsworn who killed his father. It's not Ulfrics fault but Jarl Igmund for the forsworn slavery.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000ad087

 

[Anouck]

NENALATA

I saw this quote in your signature:
From 4E 176 - 4E 180 (4 YEARS) Ulfric and the Stormcloaks stood by and DID. NOTHING. AT. ALL. to assist Hammerfell against the Thalmor." - NENALATA

Nice, but wasn't Ulfric in prison during that time - like someone else (either Raijin or Jorrvaskr) already said? And weren't the Stormcloaks founded after the Great War?


...That would probably answer your question to why they 'failed' to assist Hammerfell.

 

[Jorrvaskr]

Not only that, but I believe DrunkenMage said something about Stormcloak supporters saying negative things about Ulfric, Including one JARL.

One Jarl, who is also paranoid. It doesn't matter if they say that, they don't know Ulfric Stormcloak personally, this war has been going on for years.

The point is moot, both sides have doubts.

Who cares what this or that person said? That's their OPINION.

So it is only valid when Stormcloaks have doubts or say things? Hypocrisy.

You can Blame Ulfric For Elisif's actions as Jarl, considering she would not be in that position without him killing Torygg.

How is Ulfric to blame? Elisif is a puppet, worse than her husband was.

Torygg wasn't a good King, he was too privileged and more interested in entertaining his queen than Skyrim.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c0fd3

"And between you and me? He wasn't even that good a king. All of those rambling speeches about the Empire this, and the Empire that..."

you can also blame him for Thongvor Silverblood's desire to enslave the Forsworn as Jarl, which is racist, or at the best, Cultural discrimination.

Enslave the Forsworn? You mean by dealing with the Forsworn problem in the Reach? The mine is a prison, the Forsworn are murderers and little more than bandits. So arresting Forsworn is now enslavement?

What about arrests made by the Empire, do they not go into the same jail? The Empire is enslaving you too, it seems.

 

[Jeremius]

=

You can Blame Ulfric For Elisif's actions as Jarl, considering she would not be in that position without him killing Torygg.

How is Ulfric to blame? Elisif is a puppet, worse than her husband was.

Torygg wasn't a good King, he was too privileged and more interested in entertaining his queen than Skyrim.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c0fd3

"And between you and me? He wasn't even that good a king. All of those rambling speeches about the Empire this, and the Empire that..."

you can also blame him for Thongvor Silverblood's desire to enslave the Forsworn as Jarl, which is racist, or at the best, Cultural discrimination.

Enslave the Forsworn? You mean by dealing with the Forsworn problem in the Reach? The mine is a prison, the Forsworn are murderers and little more than bandits. So arresting Forsworn is now enslavement?

What about arrests made by the Empire, do they not go into the same jail? The Empire is enslaving you too, it seems.

Regarding Elisif. She would not be Jarl had Ulfric not killed Torygg. Her actions as Jarl were a direct result of her becoming Jarl, which was Ulfric's fault for killing Torygg

And I think Thingvor literally says enslave. Could be wrong.

 

[Jorrvaskr]

Regarding Elisif. She would not be Jarl had Ulfric not killed Torygg. Her actions as Jarl were a direct result of her becoming Jarl, which was Ulfric's fault for killing Torygg

And I think Thingvor literally says enslave. Could be wrong.

Elisif is a puppet, it doesn't matter about her being Jarl. She's at least confined to only Solitude, her being High Queen is a big no.

Except he doesn't say enslave, not once.

What's your position on the war?

The Imperials were weak. They created this Forsworn problem, but now that we're in charge we'll solve it. Once the war is over, I'll petition Ulfric to send the militia and we'll cleanse the Reach of this menace. Then the Forsworn will be where they belong. In the mines, bringing us wealth.

The Empire created the Forsworn? How?

Through neglect. During the Great War, they let the unwashed natives retake the Reach and declare their own sovereignty. The Stormcloaks were forced to retake the Reach on our own, but that taste of independence emboldened them. And the Forsworn were born. In the end, we took back Markarth, but those damn Forsworn still stalk the hills and roads, looking for revenge.

 

[Jorrvaskr]

NENALATA

I saw this quote in your signature:
From 4E 176 - 4E 180 (4 YEARS) Ulfric and the Stormcloaks stood by and DID. NOTHING. AT. ALL. to assist Hammerfell against the Thalmor." - NENALATA

Nice, but wasn't Ulfric in prison during that time - like someone else (either Raijin or Jorrvaskr) already said? And weren't the Stormcloaks founded after the Great War?


...That would probably answer your question to why they 'failed' to assist Hammerfell.

The Stormcloaks were founded to retake Markarth, well the old members of that Militia call themselves Stormcloaks. But, I don't see how a Militia retaking a Hold is at fault for not aiding Hammerfell, that is a very loose argument.

Ulfric was in prison, but if we're to make the assumption he was released before 180, where is he getting the support to go into Hammerfell? Majority of his support came in the last few months. Besides, if he left to go fight the Thalmor in Hammerfell... One city is going to support a war in another province.

Nenalata claims to have a journal, which says the Redguards believe that. Haven't seen it yet, so...