Right. Ulfric does not properly defend the rights of 'his' citizens either. The Emperor could have continued the fighting but at what cost? Thalmor care nothing whatsoever about Talos, they want the Empire dead. In a way, saving the Empire is defending everyone's rights because the Thalmor are against everything the Empire stands for.
The Empire knew the Thalmor weakness, read the book 'The Great War' it's pieced together from eyewitness accounts, interrogations of Aldmeri soldiers and captured enemy intelligence.
The Thalmor want to unmake the world.
Ulfric does fight for the rights of citizens, mainly Nords of course. But that is established lore, they're fighting for their way of life. Here is what one says after Imperial victory,
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00094178
Ulfric isn't perfect, but he's standing up and fighting for what he believes.
The Empire did everything it could during the Great War to protect Skyrim. The Empire needs Skyrim now more than ever before, yet the Nords under Ulfric wish to abandon them now... What if the Empire had never fought the war to begin with... just let the Thalmor do as they please.
The Empire deserves better than that.
The Empire was warned about the Thalmor, warned many times. They chose the path of inaction, and now their citizens can be arrested on the vague charges of Talos worship/knowing about Talos worship. Many Nords in Skyrim wanted to leave the Empire, long before the Great War. The White-Gold Concordat, made tensions stronger.
Even in the novels, the Penitus Oculatus would spy on the Nords.
The Empire deserves better? How about the Empire puts it's own citizens as a higher priority? You're arguing they did all they could, that this was the best they could do. So I should fight for the Empire because they were unable to properly defend the rights of their citizens? Because they were willing to abandon Hammerfell for Cyrodiil during the war?
The Nords also didn't like High King Istlad bringing the Dark Elves to Windhelm either.
1) Istlod
2) They came over long before High King Istlod, over one hundred years ago.
It's the Empire's policies that have kept social order in Skyrim. Without the Empire, the Nords will do whatever they want.
Here is some Skyrim without the Empire, doing whatever they want.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Decree_of_Monument
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Decree_of_Monument
I've come across many a dungeon full of dead/mutilated/tortured/set on fire Elves, Khajits and Imperials. Many bandits share the same philosophy as Ulfric. Skyrim for the Nords.
You're comparing bandits to the Stormcloaks? LOL. Umm, how about you actually give an argument that isn't completely silly. The Stormcloaks are nationalistic, but not all of them hate other races. Just because you get maybe one or two who are racist, doesn't mean plops.
How is this nonsense? "Skyrim for the Nords"; "Your kind has no place here"
It is nonsense. That is only said by Brunwulf Free-Winter, and the Stormcloaks yell "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!" which is just a battle cry that even Nord soldiers in the Legion shout.
You're using the would be Imperial sided Jarl as evidence of Stormcloak racism, and Stormcloaks kicking out other races... Which is refuted by the fact they're not. You can even ask Galmar about joining, they allow all races. They don't want sellswords, which is why he is suspicious at first.
The Empire didn't abandon anyone. The Redguard chose not to comply with the WGC. The WGC demanded lands the Thalmor already held. You're resentment towards the Empire is blinding you to the fact that every decision was not made by the Empire.
The Redguards didn't want to give up so much of their land for Cyrodiil, my 'resentment' towards the Empire isn't blinding me. Your fanaticism is blinding you, you're using far fetched, non supported arguments. You don't even make sense half the time, I don't know if this is normal, but it makes me wonder how Imperials debate here. If you're an example.
There's a personal log from a Redguard that talks about this. It matters to the Redguards. Once again, Stormcloaks will go against principle to win an argument. If you think that helping the Redguard against the Thalmor is far fetched speculation and assumptions, then you have no problem with Ulfric not allying with the Redguards if he were to win. Because based on the journal, they don't want him around either.
Link?
It says the Markarth incident resulted in him becoming uncooperative... ... ... wait for it.
You're assuming he was giving them inside information, that isn't the case. The term 'asset' just means he was useful, it doesn't mean he worked for them. Asset doesn't mean Agent.
Being uncooperative to direct contact, meaning if you approach him he will cut you down. He hates the Thalmor, so stop trying to spin the dossier as him working for the Thalmor.
I've seen weak arguments in these debates, that is the weakest.
You can't say that. TMII signed a treaty which the Redguards opposed and they abandoned each other. The Legion never abandoned them, as a Legion was left to help.
The Empire abandoned them during the war. A Legion was left to help? By one General who didn't want to abandon Hammerfell completely. Titus Mede II wouldn't have left any soldiers in Hammerfell.
Hammerfell, however, refused to accept the White-Gold Concordat, being unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal. In this, the Thalmor certainly achieved one of their long-term goals by sowing lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire.
The Great War was fought because accepting the terms would have meant Civil war. Thousands died for nothing, and the Empire lost an entire province, left the Redguards feeling betrayed, and put major tensions of one of their most important provinces.
He was during the Markarth Incident, cooperating with them. It's in the Dossier perhaps instead of insulting my intelligence, you should go read it sometime. He became an uncooperative asset at that point. Which makes him a COOPERATIVE ASSET before hand.
How about you learn to read? Calm down caps lock, why must Imperial supporters resort to using all capitals when they're debating a weak point? It doesn't make your argument stronger.
He became uncooperative to direct contact aka will kill them. He became a dormant asset, you have to get it out of your head that being an asset = working with them willingly. It doesn't.
The Empire is doing what the Thalmor want also, unlike the Stormcloaks. The Empire knows their aiding the Thalmor, and still they're only giving General Tullius just enough soldiers to keep fighting, not enough to win. Food for thought.
Why can't you read? Fewer military means a longer war. If you understood even how basic military tactics work to suite and overall strategy, you wouldn't have to ask.
I can read, you just make zero sense.
Absolutely. Again, we have eye witness testimony from Alvor that this is what happened. Unless you're calling him a liar and saying he made it all up.
I didn't call him a liar, he's talking about the Empire enforcing the ban too. Not the Thalmor. The Thalmor were given free reigns from the White-Gold Concordat, I'd rather take the testimony from someone who is older than Alvor and fought in the Great War. Delphine would know.
This was a question. I'll remember to use this against the next Stormcloak I debate with. Seeing how you refuse to answer it.
Your question was stupid, and wasn't worth answering. However if you wish me to comply,
What is it with you that you restrain your thinking such? Are you afraid to think outside the box? Is the big bad Imperial person disturbing your comfort zone? I don't restrain my thinking, unlike you I am making perfect sense. There is thinking outside the box, the way your mind works there never was a box. You talk nonsense.
YES! Being young, having fun, LIVING. The Freedom to marry who she wants, the Freedom to not be controlled by the bitter hearts who think that Skyrim and everything therein belongs to them because their Nords. Even other Nords aren't Nords unless you're a Stormcloak.
So the fact she is young, loves having lots of fun. Wants parades, to go to Thalmor parties. I should support her to be my High Queen? Besides the fact she'd be a puppet and requires the Empire to rule.
Speculation and stretching the argument. You don't know that.
I do know that, Tullius says the Thalmor are behind it. So obviously he can't be the only one who knows that, he is requesting reinforcements to end the rebellion. The Council is denying him, and Tullius says "It's due to the border" which is the excuse they most likely tell him. But they suddenly have soldiers to spare for Maven Black-Briair.
Our encounter with a member of the Elder Council, proves he's willing to spend all he has, including giving up his Elder Necklace for change. He wants TMII gone so he can enact policies to change the Empire, to get it off the decaying path it's going in. And it is, TMII lost his nerve and is no longer fit to lead. Though I have learned to admire his strengths, however, he signed his death warrant the day he signed the WGC.
So Imperial supporters have to make an assumption to make their argument all work? Since the Emperor is assassinated without any known heirs, which similar events have led to the fall of an Empire in TES. We're to just assume this man has everyone's interests at heart shall we?
Why? Should I, and other Stormcloaks simply ignore lore? Ignore everything we know about the Elder Council, about their motives in the Mede Dynasty?
Eye witnessed at the event ~ Elisif ~ Torygg's Wife says her husband simply "ceased to be" the moment Ulfric parted his lips. That destroys your argument. And she wasn't lieing either because she was very emotional about it.
Elisif, who is traumatized by events is destroying my argument... which is using the Developers own words? WOW now that is just funny. So what Bethesda are anti-Imperials? It goes with Ulfric's dialogue.
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c347e
Ok, so Ulfric manipulates the Moot. The Freedom Fighter(s) are manipulating the Moot. At least had Ulfric not committed treason and allowed the Moot, it would have been a bipartisan Moot with even number of Stormcloak and Imperial Jarls, with Jarl B playing the Wild Card.
Jarl Balgruuf has a personal grudge against Ulfric. The man is fighting a war to push out the Empire, he should just stop and allow the risk of Elisif becoming High Queen?
No. That is a weak stance, I would have expected Imperial supporters to come up with something better than that. It is Ulfric's right to not allow the Moot, you're just shouting treason with no backing. Give a source that states, a Jarl can't refuse the Moot?
You don't know. That's speculation and bias. She might end up being a great queen, the Moot decides this - NOT YOU or ULFRIC. Ulfric could have had a vote, hell, he might have won.
You're going to tell me, the Empire would respect that? Tullius would return home if they elected Ulfric? The Empire would go, okay bye. Do you just spout anything for your bias against Ulfric Stormcloak?
You have some obvious love for Balgruuf, but even Balgruuf admits Ulfric honors traditions.
"True, he's a dangerous and blood thirsty man, but he's also a Nord that honors our traditions."
How does allowing Freedom of Talos worship and Freedom of Speech to speak openly AGAINST THE EMPIRE (Sedition) help Jarl B keep his throne if he also does not agree with Ulfric?
Because, he fears being chased from Whiterun. This conversation is supposed to take place, except due to a script error Balgruuf and Vignar don't meet on a regular basis. Yeah, really neutral.
Balgruuf:
"I won't say it again, Vignar - Talos worship is forbidden. It's the Empire's law, and we're still a part of the Empire."
Vignar:
"A law made at the tip of an Aldmeri sword, aye. A sword stained red with Nord blood. Is this what our people fought and died for? To forsake our most beloved ancestor and divine?"
Balgruuf:
"I'm no happier about this than you are, but I don't want the see the Thalmor rounding up people in the streets and throwing them in prison."
Vignar:
"Do your loyalties lie with the Thalmor, then?"
Balgruuf:
"I warn you, Gray-Mane, you are treading on dangerous ground."
Vignar:
"Don't threaten me, boy. You're either a Nord who respects our traditions, or you're not. If not, it isn't me you'll have to answer to, but the people of this city and this hold."
Talk to Heimskr, too. You can ask if he's worried he'll get arrested.
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00093130
Balgruuf's son says that, Balgruuf worries about being chased from Whiterun. Man is insecure about his position.
Jarl Baalgruuf the Greater fights against any threat to his hold. And Stormcloaks telling me I have to move or leave in the middle of Whiterun hold, then attacking me for not complying is I would say a huge threat.
Some random hovering around soldiers, you're surprised they attack you when you don't comply to their order? Imperial soldiers do the exact same thing. If you're not complying with the command to back off, then you're asking for trouble.
So you're not reading my quotes. Ulfric was in prison long enough for his father to die, him to smuggle out a eulogy and for him to return home to a city still in mourning. That's not a long time at all. Certainly not more than a year AT BEST. Not even that.
What source is showing Ulfric was held in prison for a year? What source is showing Ulfric's father died right after the Markarth Incident, you said he was held there for a month. Now it's a year?
Even still, where is this source saying Ulfric should have helped the Redguards and now Hammerfell are angry or some plops.
Ulfric having an army large enough to wage a rebellion at 4E 201, doesn't mean he'd have it during 175-180 where Hammerfell fought on alone.
I'm not being silly, I've issued you several challenges, asked questions and your rebuttles are becoming more and more like personal attacks. I've presented my case with evidence and links which follow my reasoning and you're presented virtually nothing at all to counter them with.
You're using arguments that don't make sense, I'm sorry to say. I really. Do not. Understand. Wtf. You go on about. Half the time.
You're presenting no evidence, you're just merely saying there is evidence or going on about some random things.
