Same arguments, different day. #SCvImpThings
Also using World History on here is great and all, but can't relate exactly the same as what's going on in Tamriel. I've seen Stormcloaks try this all the time. Well such and such happened to this or that country so the Empire is evil and dead, all this stuff.
But this is not this or that country. This is Tamriel and while some of the real world countries are similar to say European nations, the problem with relying heavily on real world content is that what's actually going on in Tamriel gets overlooked, left out of the batch.
They who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. Which is why the same thing happens over and over and over. Though it may be a different universe, sharing different lore, the human element remains the same. In world history itself, we compare what happened to this civilization to a completely different one.
The fact that I can't compare what has happened in our timeline to the TES timeline dehumanizes TES and can make it less appealing. If there is no possibility, there is no interest. If there is no connection to what we know, what we are familiar with, then it seems far too odd to pursue. Hence why the Legion look like Romans, the Nords are called Nords, and even the Dark Elves refer to lords with the term "Ur", a Hungarian word.
Both sides of the argument HAVE used history in our world to compare what could possibly happen, not referencing the history or the circumstance, but the humanity of the occurrence. When I made my comparison, it was a reference of what very well could happen... because it happens more than you think.
Like what Ulfric said to Galmar during his little “Why I fight” speech: “I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves!”
This logic is essentially the same for the Forsworn. How can they be classified as “criminal” when they're fighting to regain back what was stolen to them in the first place? The author that you pro imperials like to use against us Pro Stormcloaks wrote in his paper (The "Madmen" of the Reach) that the Kingdom was quite peaceful under Forsworn control until after Ulfric (Who was hired by the Empire with promise of free Talos worship) retook the reach and drove what was left of the forsworn to the mountains to regain their armies.
Forsworn don't fight for their people. Since they also attack Reachmen. They just want to kill all Nords, hardly a worthy or even political cause.
So it isn't their job to protect the people? Good to know, stop claiming it is. The Legion is in Skyrim to protect their interests only.
They didn't investigate a murder, so they're not protecting citizens? Show one source where it says, it is the Legions duty to investigate a murder? Besides Imperial Watch in Cyrodiil. People are killed all the time in Tamriel. Legionnaires aren't packing CSI equipment.
So it doesn't matter because it happened so long ago? The history of the legion shouldn't be taken into account?
No it doesn't, especially when you're grasping at straws to put blame onto the Legion for everything.
If you know anything about the military, you'd know they are very traditional. They have customs, unspoken standards. Simply because it happened 200 years ago doesn't mean it won't happen again, especially in the setting in the game. If it happened then, you can bet your ass it can happen now.
Wow, so a soldier who committed murder over two hundred years ago means the Military are bad.
Fair enough. So, if Imperial Law is greater than Province law, that means that they have the power to overrule whatever judgement the region has, be it political or otherwise. Therefore, the Empire legalized slavery, not the Dunmer.
After all, if they can override law then they can override the other. Yet they didn't. Is nothing sacred?
Because Morrowind was special. It wasn't taken by Military conquest, so a treaty had to be signed. Known as the Armistice Treaty. It protected many Dunmer customs, Great House Law etc.
Fair enough.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:House_Hlaalu
Better? Another source that says the EXACT same thing.
No, go back and read what your other source said.
And what might that difference be? That the county guard are local where as the Legion is more "international" in a sense? So the US National Guard, formed by the state, doesn't count as part of the US Army nor the Military?
Are you seriously going to try compare Legion to US Army and Count's men at arms as National Guard?
There is a difference between Legionnaires and soldiers that Counts own. If you can't see it, then alright you're thick.
The counties in Cyrodiil aren't the Holds in Skyrim, and even then, most of the Holds guards count themselves as part of the legion (though mostly due to the ongoing civil war, on the same side, etc).
The soldiers in the various cities belong to the counts, as their men at arms. Bearing their sigils. Some of the soldiers are given to them by the Legion to serve them until their Imperial Contracts end, and it is up to the Count/Countess to keep them. As noted by Transfer Orders in Oblivion.
Also given Ocato's dialogue in Oblivion, city guards do not count as Legion soldiers.
They uphold the laws and standards, they are based in Cyrodiil. The province that is the HOME of the Imperial seat, not exactly the Morrowind we know and love.
City Guards maintain law in the cities. Legionnaires patrol the country side and protect the capital city.
And what was the relevance of pointing out his race? Was it needed? Were we talking about High Rock? Thats like saying so and so is a black cop in Boston. You have never been a victim of racism, you have never been excluded from anything, you don't understand what it is like for something like that to be pointed out when it has NOTHING to do with anything.
You -ARE- racist. Frankly, I'd rather deal with a Xenophobe than a racist. That being said, you've called the Stormcloaks FAR more than Xenophobes in the past. Down playing what they are, now?
Lol, I'm racist now? You're getting pathetic, even more so than I remember. I was pointing out his race and class because in the game Oblivion, Legionnaires in Cyrodiil are Imperial. But I guess you knew that? No, didn't think so.
No one is above the law. Until the Legion learns this, they will always be the oppressor.
Yet Legionnaires can be arrested themselves, so they're not above the law.
You don't even know what oppression is, the Imperial Watch doing an investigation being hard on the Thieves Guild and they're oppressors for doing so.
"Oh, you found a source, but I don't agree with your source!"
Good lord, you're as bad as Fox News. I'll start using UESP if you'll cry less
No one agrees with Elderscrollswiki. They're poorly maintained and hold incorrect information. If I'm bad for wanting you to use correct information, not just the summary of someone's own words. Then yeah, sorry for being bad, poor Ozan.
Its about Stormcloaks vs Imperials, simply because someone else does something doesn't make it right. At least all my examples are included with the legion. If you want to say the Khajiit practice slavery too, fine! What does that have to do with Group A (Stormcloaks) or Group B (Imperials)?
No one is saying someone is doing something makes it right. You say Dunmer are bad for slavery, well Khajiit are just as bad. Stormcloaks also plan to do slavery in the Reach.
Can't condemn one without the others.
But there were defenses there? Thats like saying France suffered a surprise invasion during WWI because the Schlieffen Plan didn't work too well.
Nobody says France was invaded by surprise though. Probably because they won they're Great War. How bout you?
The Empire wasn't prepared for an invasion, they just had some defenses on Valenwood. The entire Great War was a surprise. If you're unable to see that, you either don't understand tactics, or just are blind. Especially since many people mention it being a surprise, even the Blades.
So I can't be rude back? If someone is going to be an asshole, I am going to be an asshole in response. Though, believe it or not, I wasn't trying to be. Just naturally smug. :3))
You're just naturally ignorant. Always have been.
Of course, you overlook the pont of what I post or miss it altogether.
The Legion tolerates more than they should and ignores who they shouldn't. The Legion quests often involved going out and rescuing someone who has been kidnapped. The Legion, however, has looked into certain murders and events.
My issue is, they don't maintain the consistency. If so and so was killed, how did the legion know about it and then demand the deed to Vibdas's property? Why do they even want the deed? Because she can't pay taxes?
"
General Darius at the Madach Tradehouse in Gnisis will ask you to retrieve a land deed from the Widow Vabdas, whose husband died recently in the Gnisis Eggmine. The General wants Vabdas' land for a new dock and tells you not to take 'no' for an answer."
"
Explore the lower mines until you find the ghost of Mansilamat Vabdas in the underground stream. It will tell you that Lugrub killed him to hide the fact that he was sleeping on the job when Vabdas entered. As evidence, he directs you to the broken axe (Lugrub's Axe) at the bottom of the pool nearby."
-UESP
Darius KNEW Vabdas died. But, there was no body. He wasn't a missing person, he was dead. His body had to be found and the axe to be retreaved before he would change his mind (and therefore taking "no" as an answer)
My entire point isn't to slander the legion because one low rank Orc killed a guy to hide his laziness, my entire point is to slander the Legion because the officers don't care about the people of their vast empire.
Now, that being said, Morrowind's 'treaty'. It said that they could keep slaves. If it said they gave up their slaves, Morrowind wouldn't sign. WGC said you must give up Talos, and the Imperials signed it anyways. Elves are better at diplomacy than Imperials, it seems. Just sayin'!
The Imperials allow slaves, the Imperials even allow which slaves (ie criminals who are enslaved and then sold to the player). So... slavery may be legal, and it may have to be by treaty. But that doesn't mean you can't make the slave trade illegal.
And concerning Ocato's response... actually, you have a very good point. I'll edit out that part, but it still stands you didn't have to mention his race and single him out. Thats like saying "What do you see with your Elven eyes?!" "I don't know. What do you see with your human ones?"
Anyways, I'll find that post and put a slash through that guy's name.
Anyways, the Imperial Watch cracking down on the Thieves Guild. Sure, nice to crack down on crime, but when you take over an ENTIRE section of the city while looking for one guy who just to try to get someone in the area to break and reveal the location of someone else, then it is a bit stepping over the line.
"
S'Krivva in Bravil informs you that Hieronymus Lex has invaded the Waterfront District, moving a huge number of the City Watch to patrol there in hopes of finding and arresting the Gray Fox. Armand Christophe has once again been placed under house arrest and many of your fellow Thieves Guild members have either been arrested or forced into hiding."
-UESP
"The cubs grow hungry and some may break."
~S'Krivva
That would be like raiding the ghetto to arrest all the Bloods. I'd like very much to hear what charges some of the members have been arrested for, as there may be little evidence to prove an arrest was law-bound. This officer is over stepping his boundaries and abusing his power (hence why the Mage's Guild has him stop with this malarkey because of getting robbed and stuff. #Strategy).
Back to the slavery issue.
Again, my issue isn't that the Dunmer had slaves but they were ALLOWED slaves. Your issue with the Khajiit is that they have slaves too.
Alright. So, Khajiit are just as bad as the Dunmer. Again, I won't be joining the Khajiit during this civil war. Nor will I be joining the Legion, however, because the Empire they serve allowed slavery in Morrowind for so long.
May I also get a link concerning the slavery committed by Stormcloaks, or rather, planned for by the Stormcloaks? If you're referring to Cidhna Mine, that isn't controlled by Stormcloak or Imperial.
And that reminds me, all this about how Ulfric was a petty tyrant and mass murderer when he took Markarth back, I agree again. Thing is, it was the local government who allowed it... I also didn't see the Empire mind too much, not until the Thalmor learned of it.
If the Thalmor didn't find out, it would be just another event that the Empire tolerated, passing no judgement and knowing no worry.
And finally, the Great War.
Lets do some historical comparisons, shall we? France and Germany is a good start, as there was a war that was considered great at that time.
France had set up a bunch of forts outside Alsace-Lorraine. Rather than fight those forts head on, they figured it would be easier to just march through Belgium, a neutral country. However, Belgium didn't want to be a part of it, so Germany invaded anyways (#GermanThings) and pushed well into France, an elaborate surprise invasion that would have worked if they had stuck to the original plan.
Well, the Thalmor attacked Imperial forces from hidden camps in Elsweyr.
It doesn't matter, Elsweyr became a satellite state and should practically be considered part of the Aldmeri Dominion. The fact that the troops were scattered throughout the empire rather than focused near borders of potential threats (ie the growing and quite ambitious Aldmeri Dominion) is a sign of poor leadership. France didn't build forts near the Pyrenees prior to WWI because they didn't have to. Spain wasn't a threat. They built them near where former territory once was.
Sort of like how Elsweyr and Valenwood were once part of the Empire. Just saying.
Oh, and my response to "Not even the Blades saw it coming!"
"
On the 30th of Frostfall, 4E 171, the Aldmeri Dominion sent an ambassador to the Imperial City with a gift in a covered cart and an ultimatum for the new Emperor. The long list of demands included staggering tributes, disbandment of the Blades, outlawing the worship of Talos, and ceding large sections of Hammerfell to the Dominion. Despite the warnings of his generals of the Empire's military weakness, Emperor Titus Mede II rejected the ultimatum. The Thalmor ambassador upended the cart, spilling over a hundred heads on the floor: every Blades agent in Summerset and Valenwood. And so began the Great War which would consume the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion for the next five years."
Probably because they were dealt with, and dealt with thoroughly. Nice recon, there.))