Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

If they were arrested for being a Forsworn, then yes. They're there for political reasons and are in fact considered P.O.W

It is a prison that has Forsworn elements in it. But it isn't for political reasons, the Forsworn aren't counted as a political faction to the Empire and the Stormcloaks. They're considered brigands.

If someone is arrested for murder, or robbery are they a P.O.W? No. The Empire are not at war with the Forsworn, therefor they're not prisoners of war.

Same thing as the Empire and Stormcloaks. The Empire considers the Stormcloaks to be criminals and merely a rebellion. Not a political rival or legitimate government. Hence why Ralof mentions wanted posters of Ulfric printed by the Empire.

The only political prison in Skyrim is Northwatch Keep controlled by the Thalmor.

 

[Raijin]

The Silver-blood's power comes from coin. As long as they own the mine, Igmund can't do anything to them at all. They own Markarth, not Igmund, he is just sitting in the chair.

You're wrong. Igmund can very well do something about it. It's called exiling someone out of the reach. I don't care how much money the Silver-bloods has they aren't law and order. Igmund is obligated to protect everyone that is within his jurisdiction and so far he is failing his job as Jarl.

Anything that sparks dissent and potential rebellion should always be taken seriously. If Ulfric actually tried to talk to the Dunmer in a way they will understand, and actually promise to listen to their complaints later, I might understand. He does not say that at all, however, just tells his steward to tell the Dunmer that he is busy with a war started by the Thalmor manipulating Skyrim.

Let me first say that I'm going to start calling the Dunmers of Windhelm (This doesn't include Belyn Hlaalu) cry babies. I think it's better that way, don't you think? Anyhow If only the cry babies wasn't so egocentric then perhaps they would start to understand that the little minor things that they're going through right now is far less important than what truly going on through all of Skyrim.

One little cry baby mention that this isn't their war to fight.. WTF? That is just pure utter disrespect. If you consider Skyrim your home you should be highly interested in the political affairs and the well being of your homeland. If you don't give a rats ass about the future of Skyrim then why should anyone give a rats ass about your poverty stricken living condition? It goes both ways.

 

[Raijin]

It is a prison that has Forsworn elements in it. But it isn't for political reasons, the Forsworn aren't counted as a political faction to the Empire and the Stormcloaks. They're considered brigands.

If someone is arrested for murder, or robbery are they a P.O.W? No. The Empire are not at war with the Forsworn, therefor they're not prisoners of war.

Same thing as the Empire and Stormcloaks. The Empire considers the Stormcloaks to be criminals and merely a rebellion. Not a political rival or legitimate government. Hence why Ralof mentions wanted posters of Ulfric printed by the Empire.

The only political prison in Skyrim is Northwatch Keep controlled by the Thalmor.

The Forsworn are politically driven for doing what they do. They've declared holy war against the people of the reach and to the Empire for doing what they did to them.

When I say that they're P.O.W in Cidhna Mine I mean those who got arrested for being a Forsworn.

 

[Jeremius]

It is a prison that has Forsworn elements in it. But it isn't for political reasons, the Forsworn aren't counted as a political faction to the Empire and the Stormcloaks. They're considered brigands.

If someone is arrested for murder, or robbery are they a P.O.W? No. The Empire are not at war with the Forsworn, therefor they're not prisoners of war.

Same thing as the Empire and Stormcloaks. The Empire considers the Stormcloaks to be criminals and merely a rebellion. Not a political rival or legitimate government. Hence why Ralof mentions wanted posters of Ulfric printed by the Empire.

The only political prison in Skyrim is Northwatch Keep controlled by the Thalmor.

The Forsworn are politically driven for doing what they do. They've declared holy war against the people of the reach and to the Empire for doing what they did to them.

When I say that they're P.O.W in Cidhna Mine I mean those who got arrested for being a Forsworn.

Which as far as we know, only included Madanach (I think that's his name).

 

[Anouck]

Geez, not even going to hide your impolite nature. But, whatever, if you want to be rude, then you are allowed to be rude. It doesn't make you right, however.))

Well...

You seem bitter. Was it something I said or are you always this anal?))

I have nothing to say to this, I just want this to be quoted to make you look like a pompous ass.

I don't see how Jeremius' post is less rude than yours.

 

[Jeremius]

Geez, not even going to hide your impolite nature. But, whatever, if you want to be rude, then you are allowed to be rude. It doesn't make you right, however.))

Well...

You seem bitter. Was it something I said or are you always this anal?))

I have nothing to say to this, I just want this to be quoted to make you look like a pompous ass.

I don't see how Jeremius' post is less rude than yours.

Thanks for defending me Anouck, I guess.

 

[NENALATA]

Simmer down na

 

[Anouck]

Simmer down na

What does that mean?

 

[NENALATA]

Simmer means to cool. And down means to decrease.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Forsworn are politically driven for doing what they do. They've declared holy war against the people of the reach and to the Empire for doing what they did to them.

When I say that they're P.O.W in Cidhna Mine I mean those who got arrested for being a Forsworn.

Being Forsworn is a criminal, murder and what not. Otherwise it would be saying members of criminal gangs who are arrested are political prisoners.

The Forsworn aren't politically driven, as they are nothing more than brigands and raiders. Be like saying bandits are politically driven.

Besides, at least the Empire are doing something about the Forsworn. Legionnaires are fighting Forsworn keeping the Reach safe. When the Stormcloaks take over, they're just talk and don't even do anything about the Forsworn. Besides complain many roads are controlled by the Forsworn stopping shipments to other parts of Skyrim.

Anyway, about the deed. Tullius wasn't in for it about silver, since the mine already gives silver to the Empire. It was about not trusting Stormcloak supporters in control of a prison that holds some of the most dangerous criminals in the Reach.

So they sent an Agent to try buy or steal the deed if it failed, so what? Least they weren't murdering them for it, or doing what the Silver-Bloods do to landowners getting their deeds. Using mercenaries to shut down production, and force them to either sell or lose everything.

 

[Raijin]

DrunkenMage

Like what Ulfric said to Galmar during his little “Why I fight” speech: “I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves!”

This logic is essentially the same for the Forsworn. How can they be classified as “criminal” when they're fighting to regain back what was stolen to them in the first place? The author that you pro imperials like to use against us Pro Stormcloaks wrote in his paper (The "Madmen" of the Reach) that the Kingdom was quite peaceful under Forsworn control until after Ulfric (Who was hired by the Empire with promise of free Talos worship) retook the reach and drove what was left of the forsworn to the mountains to regain their armies.

Who is the real criminal? Forsworn who was violently dethroned or the Empire who hired a bunch of Nordic mercenaries under false promise to invade a peaceful city?

The true brigands and raiders are in fact the Empire. That silver in the mine belongs to the people of Skyrim, not in the pockets of an already wealthy empire in Cyrodiil.

"Now that the Empire has been driven from the Reach we can put a stop to the raping of her silver mines. That silver belongs in Skyrim."- Ulfric Stormcloak

 

[Ozan]

It is annoying talking to someone who will not admit the truth when it is in his/her face.

"If you want to fool the world, tell the truth."

- Otto von Bismarck

What you have isn't truth, its bias and opinion. The fact that you refer to it as truth offends me. Don't piss on my leg and tell me its raining.))

It isn't the Legions job to handle every matter. They uphold Imperial law and enforce Imperial authority.

So it isn't their job to protect the people? Good to know, stop claiming it is. The Legion is in Skyrim to protect their interests only.

Well if you slander the Legions, and possibly spread lies about the Emperor's forces. You get punished for it, especially if you're in a position of power. It's part of the times they're in.

I've never once said the Legion is perfect, has no faults. But the bad things the Legion did over 200 years ago, matter little.

So it doesn't matter because it happened so long ago? The history of the legion shouldn't be taken into account?

If you know anything about the military, you'd know they are very traditional. They have customs, unspoken standards. Simply because it happened 200 years ago doesn't mean it won't happen again, especially in the setting in the game. If it happened then, you can bet your ass it can happen now.

Imperial Law > Province Law. The Empire isn't a democracy, what part of that do you not understand?

Fair enough. So, if Imperial Law is greater than Province law, that means that they have the power to overrule whatever judgement the region has, be it political or otherwise. Therefore, the Empire legalized slavery, not the Dunmer.

After all, if they can override law then they can override the other. Yet they didn't. Is nothing sacred?

Nice quote. From Elderscrolls wiki, the worst source of information. House Redoran was building their army during the Oblivion Crisis, it wasn't until after the Oblivion Crisis they formed an army.

Without an Emperor, the Empire beyond the reach of Cyrodiil began to splinter. - Rising Threat, Vol. III

When it is said the Empire 'released it's grasp on Morrowind' that was due to the loss of ability to keep Imperial authority. It wasn't until 4E 17 that the Empire began to stabilize under Emperor Titus Mede.

Fair enough.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:House_Hlaalu

"House Hlaalu seemed to be on the rise,[7] however the advent of the Oblivion Crisis in 3E 433 set events in motion that would see the downfall of the Great House. The Empire pulled a vast majority of the Legions out of Morrowind to deal with the gates opening in their homeland of Cyrodiil. The Dunmer had no standing army at the time, and were left defenseless as the armies of daedra swept across the province.[2] While House Telvanni were able to close some of the oblivion gates, and House Redoran succeeded in creating an army, House Hlaalu was left powerless without the backing of the Empire."
Better? Another source that says the EXACT same thing.

No. They do not. There is a difference. Legion =/= County Guard.

They defend the laws and authority of the Counts they serve. Belonging to their household.

So they're not Legion now?

They're paid by the Counts.

And what might that difference be? That the county guard are local where as the Legion is more "international" in a sense? So the US National Guard, formed by the state, doesn't count as part of the US Army nor the Military?

The counties in Cyrodiil aren't the Holds in Skyrim, and even then, most of the Holds guards count themselves as part of the legion (though mostly due to the ongoing civil war, on the same side, etc).

They uphold the laws and standards, they are based in Cyrodiil. The province that is the HOME of the Imperial seat, not exactly the Morrowind we know and love.

I was saying he was a Breton Knight. He is in the service of the Count, not the Legion.

No. You brought up that I was being racist, because I said he was a Breton Knight. So quit your bitching.

I call the Stormcloaks xenophobic. I'll let you figure out a difference.

And what was the relevance of pointing out his race? Was it needed? Were we talking about High Rock? Thats like saying so and so is a black cop in Boston. You have never been a victim of racism, you have never been excluded from anything, you don't understand what it is like for something like that to be pointed out when it has NOTHING to do with anything.

You -ARE- racist. Frankly, I'd rather deal with a Xenophobe than a racist. That being said, you've called the Stormcloaks FAR more than Xenophobes in the past. Down playing what they are, now?

The Legion are the law. Quit yelling the oppression , Lex was doing an investigation and closing down the Thieves Guild operations. Having one of their chief Lieutenants under House Arrest and many other Guild members being arrested.

The Legion are the law.

THE LEGION ARE THE LAW

No one is above the law. Until the Legion learns this, they will always be the oppressor.

You don't even know what wiki to use, so your credibility is about as high as the Stormcloak supporter who was in here ages ago saying the Imperials hide lore.

"Oh, you found a source, but I don't agree with your source!"

Good lord, you're as bad as Fox News. I'll start using UESP if you'll cry less

You don't even know what an argument is. It's all oppression when it comes to you.

Its about Stormcloaks vs Imperials, simply because someone else does something doesn't make it right. At least all my examples are included with the legion. If you want to say the Khajiit practice slavery too, fine! What does that have to do with Group A (Stormcloaks) or Group B (Imperials)?

I don't even know what you're on about here? Imperial defenses on Valenwood weren't attacked from Valenwood. They were attacked from hidden camps in Elsweyr.

But there were defenses there? Thats like saying France suffered a surprise invasion during WWI because the Schlieffen Plan didn't work too well.

Nobody says France was invaded by surprise though. Probably because they won they're Great War. How bout you?

Better an ass, than to share your ideology.

"Its easier to fool people than to convince them they've been fooled."

-Mark Twain.))

I don't see how Jeremius' post is less rude than yours.

So I can't be rude back? If someone is going to be an asshole, I am going to be an asshole in response. Though, believe it or not, I wasn't trying to be. Just naturally smug. :3))

 

[Jeremius]

It is annoying talking to someone who will not admit the truth when it is in his/her face.

"If you want to fool the world, tell the truth."

- Otto von Bismarck

What you have isn't truth, its bias and opinion. The fact that you refer to it as truth offends me. Don't piss on my leg and tell me its raining.))

The Thalmor have a Dossier basically telling you that they are helping the Stormcloaks fight the Empire. That is a bad sign if the rebels do not realize they are being manipulated by the people who they hate.

 

[Ozan]

The Thalmor have a Dossier basically telling you that they are helping the Stormcloaks fight the Empire. That is a bad sign if the rebels do not realize they are being manipulated by the people who they hate.

I'm aware. In that dossier, it also said contacting him directly was impossible.))

Edit: The enemy of my enemy is my friend. If the Thalmor want to help Skyrim become a nation, let them. Its not like Poland suffered when Prussia was released from Fiefdomship.))

 

[Seanu Reaves]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. If the Thalmor want to help Skyrim become a nation, let them. Its not like Poland suffered when Prussia was released from Fiefdomship.))

By that logic the Stormcloaks should be helping the empire since they both hate the Thalmor much more than the empire. Seeing as an independent Skyrim would probably at best only get crushed after the Thalmor take over the Empire and decide to deal with the only nation to Embrace Talos worship.

Whether or not the cause is just the timing was forced because a certain leader wanted to be the "Hero" of a song.

 

[Jeremius]

The Thalmor have a Dossier basically telling you that they are helping the Stormcloaks fight the Empire. That is a bad sign if the rebels do not realize they are being manipulated by the people who they hate.

I'm aware. In that dossier, it also said contacting him directly was impossible.))

Edit: The enemy of my enemy is my friend. If the Thalmor want to help Skyrim become a nation, let them. Its not like Poland suffered when Prussia was released from Fiefdomship.))

And the Dossier also says that an Imperial victory in Skyrim would harm their overall position, but the mention of a Stormcloak victory being avoided sounds almost like an afterthought.

They want to help themselves, and are using the gullible Nords to distract the Empire, who had a 6 (I think) year head start in rebuilding and preparing for the next great war.

 

[Ozan]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. If the Thalmor want to help Skyrim become a nation, let them. Its not like Poland suffered when Prussia was released from Fiefdomship.))

By that logic the Stormcloaks should be helping the empire since they both hate the Thalmor much more than the empire. Seeing as an independent Skyrim would probably at best only get crushed after the Thalmor take over the Empire and decide to deal with the only nation to Embrace Talos worship.

Whether or not the cause is just the timing was forced because a certain leader wanted to be the "Hero" of a song.

Noooo, the historical reference is that Poland let Prussia do their own thing after the Swedish were getting involved with them. In order to fight the Swedes, Poland said they'd recognized their sovereignty if they were to declare it so long as they weren't a part of Sweden (Hence, Poland as Thalmor and Sweden as the Empire).

However, it was also really sarcastic of me to say that as Prussia CONQUERED Poland in 1700, having control of it into the early 1800's. Poland allowed a country to exist and it backfired later on.

Make sense?))

 

[NENALATA]

I'm aware. In that dossier, it also said contacting him directly was impossible.))

No... they said contact remains a possibility under extreme circumstances.

Furthermore, Elenwen shows no fear of Ulfric. More like she's ready to "deal" with him and the new Skyrim Gov under him.

WGC was phase I, getting rid of the Empire in Skyrim is phase II. The Thalmor are prepared for the next phase of this as well.

All Ulfric has to do as High King is sign a treaty of non-aggression and Skyrim will end up the equivalent of Hammerfell. Ulfric is afraid of the Thalmor turning their attention to Skyrim, so... He would sign it.

This would mean the Thalmor can do whatever they want as long as they don't touch Skyrim.

 

[NENALATA]

Also using World History on here is great and all, but can't relate exactly the same as what's going on in Tamriel. I've seen Stormcloaks try this all the time. Well such and such happened to this or that country so the Empire is evil and dead, all this stuff.

But this is not this or that country. This is Tamriel and while some of the real world countries are similar to say European nations, the problem with relying heavily on real world content is that what's actually going on in Tamriel gets overlooked, left out of the batch.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Like what Ulfric said to Galmar during his little “Why I fight” speech: “I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves!”

This logic is essentially the same for the Forsworn. How can they be classified as “criminal” when they're fighting to regain back what was stolen to them in the first place? The author that you pro imperials like to use against us Pro Stormcloaks wrote in his paper (The "Madmen" of the Reach) that the Kingdom was quite peaceful under Forsworn control until after Ulfric (Who was hired by the Empire with promise of free Talos worship) retook the reach and drove what was left of the forsworn to the mountains to regain their armies.

Forsworn don't fight for their people. Since they also attack Reachmen. They just want to kill all Nords, hardly a worthy or even political cause.

So it isn't their job to protect the people? Good to know, stop claiming it is. The Legion is in Skyrim to protect their interests only.

They didn't investigate a murder, so they're not protecting citizens? Show one source where it says, it is the Legions duty to investigate a murder? Besides Imperial Watch in Cyrodiil. People are killed all the time in Tamriel. Legionnaires aren't packing CSI equipment.

So it doesn't matter because it happened so long ago? The history of the legion shouldn't be taken into account?

No it doesn't, especially when you're grasping at straws to put blame onto the Legion for everything.

If you know anything about the military, you'd know they are very traditional. They have customs, unspoken standards. Simply because it happened 200 years ago doesn't mean it won't happen again, especially in the setting in the game. If it happened then, you can bet your ass it can happen now.

Wow, so a soldier who committed murder over two hundred years ago means the Military are bad.

Fair enough. So, if Imperial Law is greater than Province law, that means that they have the power to overrule whatever judgement the region has, be it political or otherwise. Therefore, the Empire legalized slavery, not the Dunmer.

After all, if they can override law then they can override the other. Yet they didn't. Is nothing sacred?

Because Morrowind was special. It wasn't taken by Military conquest, so a treaty had to be signed. Known as the Armistice Treaty. It protected many Dunmer customs, Great House Law etc.

Fair enough.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:House_Hlaalu

Better? Another source that says the EXACT same thing.

No, go back and read what your other source said.

And what might that difference be? That the county guard are local where as the Legion is more "international" in a sense? So the US National Guard, formed by the state, doesn't count as part of the US Army nor the Military?

Are you seriously going to try compare Legion to US Army and Count's men at arms as National Guard?

There is a difference between Legionnaires and soldiers that Counts own. If you can't see it, then alright you're thick.

The counties in Cyrodiil aren't the Holds in Skyrim, and even then, most of the Holds guards count themselves as part of the legion (though mostly due to the ongoing civil war, on the same side, etc).

The soldiers in the various cities belong to the counts, as their men at arms. Bearing their sigils. Some of the soldiers are given to them by the Legion to serve them until their Imperial Contracts end, and it is up to the Count/Countess to keep them. As noted by Transfer Orders in Oblivion.

Also given Ocato's dialogue in Oblivion, city guards do not count as Legion soldiers.

They uphold the laws and standards, they are based in Cyrodiil. The province that is the HOME of the Imperial seat, not exactly the Morrowind we know and love.

City Guards maintain law in the cities. Legionnaires patrol the country side and protect the capital city.

And what was the relevance of pointing out his race? Was it needed? Were we talking about High Rock? Thats like saying so and so is a black cop in Boston. You have never been a victim of racism, you have never been excluded from anything, you don't understand what it is like for something like that to be pointed out when it has NOTHING to do with anything.

You -ARE- racist. Frankly, I'd rather deal with a Xenophobe than a racist. That being said, you've called the Stormcloaks FAR more than Xenophobes in the past. Down playing what they are, now?

Lol, I'm racist now? You're getting pathetic, even more so than I remember. I was pointing out his race and class because in the game Oblivion, Legionnaires in Cyrodiil are Imperial. But I guess you knew that? No, didn't think so.

No one is above the law. Until the Legion learns this, they will always be the oppressor.

Yet Legionnaires can be arrested themselves, so they're not above the law.

You don't even know what oppression is, the Imperial Watch doing an investigation being hard on the Thieves Guild and they're oppressors for doing so.

"Oh, you found a source, but I don't agree with your source!"

Good lord, you're as bad as Fox News. I'll start using UESP if you'll cry less

No one agrees with Elderscrollswiki. They're poorly maintained and hold incorrect information. If I'm bad for wanting you to use correct information, not just the summary of someone's own words. Then yeah, sorry for being bad, poor Ozan.

Its about Stormcloaks vs Imperials, simply because someone else does something doesn't make it right. At least all my examples are included with the legion. If you want to say the Khajiit practice slavery too, fine! What does that have to do with Group A (Stormcloaks) or Group B (Imperials)?

No one is saying someone is doing something makes it right. You say Dunmer are bad for slavery, well Khajiit are just as bad. Stormcloaks also plan to do slavery in the Reach.

Can't condemn one without the others.

But there were defenses there? Thats like saying France suffered a surprise invasion during WWI because the Schlieffen Plan didn't work too well.

Nobody says France was invaded by surprise though. Probably because they won they're Great War. How bout you?

The Empire wasn't prepared for an invasion, they just had some defenses on Valenwood. The entire Great War was a surprise. If you're unable to see that, you either don't understand tactics, or just are blind. Especially since many people mention it being a surprise, even the Blades.

So I can't be rude back? If someone is going to be an asshole, I am going to be an asshole in response. Though, believe it or not, I wasn't trying to be. Just naturally smug. :3))

You're just naturally ignorant. Always have been.