Buffington Battle-Born
3 B's, Ho!
Best third faction? Dragons. Become a Dragon priest, and enslave Skyrim for Alduin.
stormcloak or empire?
- Thread starter Firefury
- Start date
Docta Corvina
Well-Known Member
I have to echo the "Balgruuf for Prez" sentiment. I think he'd have made a fantastic High King, if his governance of Whiterun is any indication of his capacity for just and tempered rule. I always appreciated how mostly chill he was, and how remarkably hospitable. And funny! I'm really grateful that Whiterun was set up as the "starter" city. I've always loved it a great deal and very much so because of Balgruuf, my favorite Jarl.
Dagmar
Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
Stormcloaks =/= Nords. It's a war between Nords that support remaining in the Empire and Nords that favor secession.
The Stormcloaks instigated the civil war resulting in the death and misery of your fellow Nords on both sides of the conflict yet you think not supporting them somehow is a betrayal of the Nords?
Jersey Dagmar
Just in time for the fiyahworks show! BOOM!
LOL at bulbaquil for commenting disagree to a post that merely asserts matters of fact. Reminds me of people that don't believe in evolution.
bulbaquil
...is not Sjadbek, he just runs him.
LOL at bulbaquil for commenting disagree to a post that merely asserts matters of fact. Reminds me of people that don't believe in evolution.
Sjadbek made me. He's disputing the second paragraph and claims the Empire and Igmund started the war (by kicking Ulfric et al. out of Markarth). He doesn't dispute the first.
imaginepageant
Slytherin Alumni
Eh? The Empire started the war by signing the White-Gold Concordat. Whether you believe Ulfric truly wants religious freedom or if he's only after the throne, the White-Gold Concordat is at the center of it, because he's either fighting what it stands for or using it as an excuse to seize power.
bulbaquil
...is not Sjadbek, he just runs him.
Yeah - certainly, the Stormcloaks initiated hostilities; I am not disputing that - but they did have a casus belli. (Ulfric would have been hard-pressed to launch a rebellion if they didn't.) Whether or not it's legitimate or not, of course, probably depends largely on how you feel about the Stormcloaks.
Dagmar
Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
Sorry, but attributing the signing of a peace treaty to an act of war requires acceptance of an extremely liberal distortion of the English language. That's like saying the Allied powers caused World War II by requiring Germany to sign the Treaty of Versailles.
Whether you believe their rebellion is justified or not, the Stormcloaks started the war.
imaginepageant
Slytherin Alumni
What I meant was, the treaty was the impetus for the war. If Ulfric is indeed fighting for religious freedom and to free Skyrim from the Empire, he's doing so because of the treaty. If Ulfric is only trying to seize the throne, he's using the treaty as an excuse and as a means to gather support which he wouldn't have had otherwise. Either way, the war is happening because the treaty exists.
And yes, if Ulfric's intentions are selfish, he might have found another excuse to start a war if the treaty hadn't been signed; however, this is nothing more than speculation, and no one can say for certain whether or not the war would have begun in different circumstances.
DWFII
Member
What I find most disturbing about the various iterations of this discussion is that Skyrim is a game...set in a world chronologically and culturally distant from our own.
It is entertainment and as such meant to provide a break or diversion from the cares of the world.
Yet somehow people manage to drag and impose modern sensibilities into this world...sensibilities that by any objective measure are inappropriate.
The accusation that Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are racist is a good example. I have yet to see any real evidence that this is true. It is just one of those politically correct, important sounding, catchphrase slanders that seem to rise unbidden at every turning. Something people can latch onto and get outraged about, I suppose...in lieu of more productive enterprises.
Perhaps just as disturbing is the obdurate, intransigent intolerance for a different culture and a different world view...and mostly from people who ostensibly and very publicly hold tolerance as the end all and be all of enlightened behaviour...except for people who disagree with them.
Where's the game?
It is entertainment and as such meant to provide a break or diversion from the cares of the world.
Yet somehow people manage to drag and impose modern sensibilities into this world...sensibilities that by any objective measure are inappropriate.
The accusation that Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are racist is a good example. I have yet to see any real evidence that this is true. It is just one of those politically correct, important sounding, catchphrase slanders that seem to rise unbidden at every turning. Something people can latch onto and get outraged about, I suppose...in lieu of more productive enterprises.
Perhaps just as disturbing is the obdurate, intransigent intolerance for a different culture and a different world view...and mostly from people who ostensibly and very publicly hold tolerance as the end all and be all of enlightened behaviour...except for people who disagree with them.
Where's the game?
Balerion Blackdread
Eater of Worlds and Pie
Throwing around psuedo clever catch phrases like "politically correct" doesn't garner any support for your observations or rather deficits in observation skills. Making observations about racial prejudice doesn't require one to "drag and impose modern sensibilities" into a fictional world. Racial prejudice isn't contextual. Despite any belief you may have to the contrary, words have meaning and language and communication wouldn't be possible if it were otherwise.
You either haven't been paying much attention to what actually is disclosed in the dialogues in the game or you haven't played much of the game if you haven't observed anything that's indicative of racial prejudice by Ulfric or his Stormcloaks. It's plainly stated that the Dunmer are segregated and only allowed to live in the Grey Quarter. You're first interaction in Windhelm if you enter through the main gates is between 2 Stormcloak supporters and a Dunmer where they are berating her and making unfounded accusations based on her race with very unsubtle insinuations that they may do her physical harm in the future. One of the most upstanding citizens and a war hero living in Windhelm insinuates that Ulfric is a racist. Ulfric refuses to offer protection to any non-Nords settlements or groups living in his Hold from bandits or other forms of predators even though it's supposedly his duty as Jarl to protect all his citizens. I could go on but that's enough to illustrate your ignorance, deliberate or otherwise, of a fair amount of the game content that supports the notion that Ulfric is a racist.
First you talk about how it's just a game and then you talk about intolerance for a different culture when it's fictional. Good one. People are just having fun in a thread by trading observations and debating the merits of the Stormcloaks versus the Imperials for amusement.
DWFII
Member
There's no contradiction there...to call someone racist because he is indifferent to the "niceties" afforded people who do not agree with him is absurd. The Dunmer have a place...a sanctuary, at least...and are surviving and are not persecuted. But, as I understand it, the case can be made that neither are they, strictly speaking, human...so racism doesn't enter into it.
We are genetically encoded to protect and trust our own families first, clans second, and all others have to prove they are worthy of trust. The whole animal kingdom is rife with such behavior...despite the saccharine notions of fantacists, the lamb seldom lies down with the lion.
We are genetically encoded to protect and trust our own families first, clans second, and all others have to prove they are worthy of trust. The whole animal kingdom is rife with such behavior...despite the saccharine notions of fantacists, the lamb seldom lies down with the lion.
Balerion Blackdread
Eater of Worlds and Pie
You appear to be significantly English-challenged. There wasn't any contradiction posited.
The only thing absurd is that statement. If you think that any of the examples I posted above equate to mere indifference then you simply don't understand the meaning of words like "indifference" "racial" and "prejudice" although I suspect you're simply choosing to ignore convention and are abusing the English language in an attempt to defend your position because it's the only way you can put on the facade of doing so.
This is an incredibly disturbing statement only ameliorated by the fact we are dealing with fiction. This is one of the same arguments that was made to support slavery of African Americans in the United States. It's completely irrelevant whether they are "human" or not. They bear the same level of sentience and humanity as humans and that's all that matters.
This is merely an explanation for xenophobia and racial prejudice. It is neither a refutation of it's existence nor a valid defense of it. We are not rutting beasts (well at least some of us aren't). We have the higher faculties of reason which enable us to rise above the beasts and adopt an actual code of morality and ethics to enable us to exist as a more developed, cohesive and, hopefully, just society than lions and wolves.
The Phoenician
Shiney, let's be bad guys.
Ulfric don't care about grey people.
DWFII
Member
You're imposing your political beliefs and your nearly hysterical emotionalism on not only this discussion but the game itself. Which is just what I was objecting to.
There is no real evidence that Ulfric is racist. Only your perception of his actions or inactions.
Anytime one person or one faction can slander another by bandying about accusations that have no factual basis it is more nearly rant than rational.
And worse, it's selective self-congratulation. For instance...
You can imagine all kinds of things going on in the mind of someone like Ulfric (ignoring what the developers have written into his character and what he says) yet seem impervious to the fact that the unholy alliance between the Empire and the Thalmor effectively imposes an absolute form of tyranny on the people of Skyrim. Because that's what the ban on worshiping Talos is. It is legislating what thoughts and what beliefs a people may have and to which source they may turn to for comfort.
And that's not going away...it is written into the law and the treaty. The fact that it is not universally enforced is beside the point. Skyrim is not unified under the Empire. But the Thalmor kill worshipers of Talos in their own homeland. And as they gain influence and power they will, if history and reason have any legitimacy, feel less constrained.
And all these all-too-conveniently-easy-to-ignore problems are being kicked down the road--passed on to the next generation rather than confronting them in the here and now when they are perhaps less entrenched.
Why? It's expedient, that's why.
Having said all that, you'll pardon me if I observe that your remarks, taken as a whole, seem almost emblematic of people who take these kinds of positions. Pretty words but remarkably Jacobean in tone and intent.
I'm not sure which game you're playing but I don't see what you're seeing and given the vehemence I'm not certain I want to. I suspect that the developers were intelligent enough and subtle enough that they would not make Ulfric such an obvious foil that the Empire is the must-choose default for all right thinking people...like yourself presumably.
When I look at Skyrim, I see an ancient and feudal culture. With very different mores and social touchstones than our own and I feel drawn to explore that culture for its own sake not so that I can rant or change it. (Like moving to Montana to escape problems of the southern California and then complaining because Billings isn't more like LA).
Regardless of how I feel about real racist behaviour, I try to see the context and the cultural predicates. When I encounter real racism in the game I will deal with it then.
From my point of view, that's the essence of genuine tolerance...not just paying lip-service to it.
There is no real evidence that Ulfric is racist. Only your perception of his actions or inactions.
Anytime one person or one faction can slander another by bandying about accusations that have no factual basis it is more nearly rant than rational.
And worse, it's selective self-congratulation. For instance...
You can imagine all kinds of things going on in the mind of someone like Ulfric (ignoring what the developers have written into his character and what he says) yet seem impervious to the fact that the unholy alliance between the Empire and the Thalmor effectively imposes an absolute form of tyranny on the people of Skyrim. Because that's what the ban on worshiping Talos is. It is legislating what thoughts and what beliefs a people may have and to which source they may turn to for comfort.
And that's not going away...it is written into the law and the treaty. The fact that it is not universally enforced is beside the point. Skyrim is not unified under the Empire. But the Thalmor kill worshipers of Talos in their own homeland. And as they gain influence and power they will, if history and reason have any legitimacy, feel less constrained.
And all these all-too-conveniently-easy-to-ignore problems are being kicked down the road--passed on to the next generation rather than confronting them in the here and now when they are perhaps less entrenched.
Why? It's expedient, that's why.
Having said all that, you'll pardon me if I observe that your remarks, taken as a whole, seem almost emblematic of people who take these kinds of positions. Pretty words but remarkably Jacobean in tone and intent.
I'm not sure which game you're playing but I don't see what you're seeing and given the vehemence I'm not certain I want to. I suspect that the developers were intelligent enough and subtle enough that they would not make Ulfric such an obvious foil that the Empire is the must-choose default for all right thinking people...like yourself presumably.
When I look at Skyrim, I see an ancient and feudal culture. With very different mores and social touchstones than our own and I feel drawn to explore that culture for its own sake not so that I can rant or change it. (Like moving to Montana to escape problems of the southern California and then complaining because Billings isn't more like LA).
Regardless of how I feel about real racist behaviour, I try to see the context and the cultural predicates. When I encounter real racism in the game I will deal with it then.
From my point of view, that's the essence of genuine tolerance...not just paying lip-service to it.
Dagmar
Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
I just don't get how you can believe that there is no evidence of his racism given that he's imposed segregation on the Dunmer and he doesn't afford equal protection to his people based on race. Those are classic examples of racism in governance and he's the Jarl of Eastmarch. These are his policies that he's implemented. Unless you believe that segregation before the civil rights movement wasn't racist, or that apartheid in South Africa wasn't racist or that turning a blind eye to lynchings by law enforcement isn't racist those policies should be sufficient evidence that he's racist.
You seem to be entertaining some kind of notion that it requires some form of telepathy to get inside a person's head or Wonder Woman's lariat to get them to confess that they are racist to determine if they are racist, but that's not how characteristics of racism are ascribed to people, it's through their actions. Uflric's dialogues don't really touch on the issue of his policies regarding non-Nords. He only touches on the issue of race with you if you're not a Nord and join the Stormcloaks, and they're hardly definitive of anything other than movement of the faction quest plot line.
Which you can thank Ulfric for. If you follow Hadvar in the beginning of the game you get to speak to his uncle Alvor in Riverwood, you get dialogue options where you discover that the Thalmor presence and ability to take people in Skyrim for suspicion of worshiping Talos is a direct result of the Stormcloak rebellion. Before that, notwithstanding that it was one of the the worst kept secrets in Tamriel, people were free to worship Talos with the Empire turning a blind eye and the Thalmor having no presence to do anything about it.
In general citing cultural relativism as a reason to tolerate racism isn't an argument against it's existence. Racial prejudice in general is very noticeable in the game which is hardly surprising since Tamriel is a world where centuries of conflict have often been divided along racial lines because the various provinces and kingdoms, like many old civilizations, are based along racial lines. While that goes a long way in explaining it or even rationalizing it, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It's one thing to say that one should not judge people for it in the context of our world but it's another thing entirely to say that it's not there.
Balerion Blackdread
Eater of Worlds and Pie
LOLing at inferring emotional context from a text format. This is just a weak and puerile ad hominem, a logically fallacious tool of last resort when one doesn't have any substantive counterargument to present. There is nothing political about noting the characteristics of racism or recognizing them when they manifest themselves in characters in a work of fiction.
Your presumption is ignorant and your view of the Stormcloaks being untenable as choice for players in the civil war simply because of Ulfric's shared xenophobic racially prejudiced views and practices is an ironic display of your inability to immerse yourself into a character of that world and culture given that a portion of your prior posts was about being able to do so.
As noted above, racial prejudice is a common characteristic of many NPCs in the world of Tamriel. It's hardly unique to Ulfric and the Stormcloaks, and there's nothing incongruent with a player having their character choose to ally with the Stormcloaks regardless of whether they are playing a "good" character or an "evil" character. If you accept moral relativism in governing your character's actions, which you can do and arguably should do, then the racial prejudices of the Stormcloaks shouldn't be a deal breaker for you, especially if you're playing a Nord. On the other hand if you want to insert your real world sensibilities into your character and be more like Brunwulf Free-Winter it's your game and it's nobody's place to tell you how you should play it.
I suppose a third way is to delude yourself into believing your character is being consistent with your real world sensibilities by selectively ignoring game content that is presented to you.
