Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

  • Welcome to Skyrim Forums! Register now to participate using the 'Sign Up' button on the right. You may now register with your Facebook or Steam account!

Ivory

Let's Player
War crimes you say? Ulfric was hired to retake back the reach with full promise of free Talos worship. If anything it's the Empire and Igmund family that's guilty of war crimes. Their the ones that initiate the war. Ulfric was just some pawn of the Empire.

Ulfric wasnt commanded to commit war crimes. Those were his choices. Not the Empire's call. His own. Also, you didnt respond to my earlier question. Do you see the similarities to your disregard for the Bretons and how the Thalmor treat human kind as savages?
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
If the Empire was that honorable to the native people of the Reach the Empire would allow them to rule their own hold as compensation.

Ulfric wasnt commanded to commit war crimes. Those were his choices. Not the Empire's call. His own. Also, you didnt respond to my earlier question. Do you see the similarities to your disregard for the Bretons and how the Thalmor treat human kind as savages?

Ulfric was told to retake back the Reach. I'm sure he was told "at all cost" and he did exactly that.

No I don't see the similarities. Are you telling me that since I blame the Empire for what happen to the Reach that I now share a similarities trait as the Thalmor for their disregard for the humans? Funny how being a Breton is one of my favorite race to play in Skyrim.
 

Mr.Self Destruct

Chosen Undead
If the Empire was that honorable to the native people of the Reach the Empire would allow them to rule their own hold as compensation.

So wait a minute, you go from claiming that these people are savage killers who deserve to be enslaved to now claiming it'd be the honorable thing to give them back their lands? Are you kidding me?
Ulfric was told to retake back the Reach. I'm sure he was told "at all cost" and he did exactly that.

Where's your evidence that he was told to take the Reach back at all cost.
 

Jader

The Mystic Marksman
I'm starting to feel bad for Raijin lol..one of the lone Stormcloaks left actually going on this thread.

I agree that the Forsworn are savages and need to be dealt with,but I hardly see what good it would do to enslave them in the mines,other than ore they mine up.Doing so would alienate them even more and would probably result in them going from attacking randomly on the road to them attacking the city,regardless of the losses they would suffer.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
If the Empire was that honorable to the native people of the Reach the Empire would allow them to rule their own hold as compensation.

Ulfric wasnt commanded to commit war crimes. Those were his choices. Not the Empire's call. His own. Also, you didnt respond to my earlier question. Do you see the similarities to your disregard for the Bretons and how the Thalmor treat human kind as savages?

Ulfric was told to retake back the Reach. I'm sure he was told "at all cost" and he did exactly that.

No I don't see the similarities. Are you telling me that since I blame the Empire for what happen to the Reach that I now share a similarities trait as the Thalmor for their disregard for the humans? Funny how being a Breton is one of my favorite race to play in Skyrim.

No. I am telling you that you're logic of the Reachmen Bretons deserve to be enslaved to be "useful" as you claim is the same logic the Thalmor have for wanting to rule over Tamriel. While I myself love the Snow Elven race, I actually am a die hard Breton player and while I wanna slap the crap out of the Forsworn for being ruthless, Ulfric is soley to blame. He issued and put into practice the war crimes. If I had my way, I wouldn't have killed Ulfric, but demand he fix what he destroyed.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Raijin and I decided to switch things up, he'll be defending the Empire and I'll be defending the Stormcloaks. Imperial supporters, throw your arguments up and just remember Stormblade DrunkenMage doesn't take prisoners ;)
 

Indri Master

Dremora
Raijin and I decided to switch things up, he'll be defending the Empire and I'll be defending the Stormcloaks. Imperial supporters, throw your arguments up and just remember Stormblade DrunkenMage doesn't take prisoners ;)
K. Ulfric Stormcloak is an oblivious racist dumbass. Imperials are just trying to regain strength to take on the Thalmor. GG. kthxbai
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
K. Ulfric Stormcloak is an oblivious racist dumbass. Imperials are just trying to regain strength to take on the Thalmor. GG. kthxbai

Racism in Tamriel is seen all over the place, not just confined to Ulfric Stormcloak. The Imperials aren't above racism, nor Argonians.

Imperials have been trying to regain strength for the better part of two hundred years. Legions are rarely even seen doing their most basic of duties to protect to citizenry, either claiming not enough man power or flat out refusing.

Where was the Legion during the defense of Bruma? Where was the Legion when bandits were attacking villages in Skyrim? Or where was the Legion when Raven Rock came under siege?

Imperial Legion maintains garrisons in all the provinces of the Empire. So where are they when they're needed?

Why would the Nords want to fight for an Empire that views them like this?

Neville: With every word you speak you're just proving me right, Nord. Your kind has contributed nothing to our Empire and never will!
 

Ivory

Let's Player
Racism in Tamriel is seen all over the place, not just confined to Ulfric Stormcloak. The Imperials aren't above racism, nor Argonians.

Doesn't justify anything. Though, I'd be curious to see a situation where the Imperials were racist. I can barely see it with the Argonians seeing as them and the Dark Elves have been enemies for a very long time.

Imperials have been trying to regain strength for the better part of two hundred years. Legions are rarely even seen doing their most basic of duties to protect to citizenry, either claiming not enough man power or flat out refusing.

Considering all of Tamriel was assualted by the Daedra, I'd say it would take quite a bit of recovery time since just because the Daedra attacked, didn't mean Mortals still didn't try to slaughter or take advantage of the situation. A legion could only do so much when their focus is rebuilding. That's not even taking into account the Great War. This can be seen with every form of power through out Tamriel.

Where was the Legion during the defense of Bruma? Where was the Legion when bandits were attacking villages in Skyrim? Or where was the Legion when Raven Rock came under siege? Imperial Legion maintains garrisons in all the provinces of the Empire. So where are they when they're needed?
Just wanna be sure, which time period are you discussing here?


Why would the Nords want to fight for an Empire that views them like this?

Neville: With every word you speak you're just proving me right, Nord. Your kind has contributed nothing to our Empire and never will!
I'm not sure the context, nor who this character is. However we all understand the basic concept that one man does not speak for everyone. Provide context please.

This may be interesting.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
War crimes you say? Ulfric was hired to retake back the reach with full promise of free Talos worship. If anything it's the Empire and Igmund family that's guilty of war crimes. Their the ones that initiate the war. Ulfric was just some pawn of the Empire.
The Empire didn't have anything to do with it. Ulfric's Nord militia was retained by the local Nords's of the Reach including the displaced Jarl. Ulfric was no one's pawn. He negotiated the terms for his service and that of his militia on equal terms with the Nords of the Reach. The fact that they made such a ridiculous promise is evidence that, if anything, he had the superior leverage in setting out the terms for his retaking the Reach.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Doesn't justify anything. Though, I'd be curious to see a situation where the Imperials were racist. I can barely see it with the Argonians seeing as them and the Dark Elves have been enemies for a very long time.

Argonians have been racist towards Khajiit during Oblivion. The Imperial Captain in Helgan is also considerably racist. Being supportive of the Empire doesn't mean you're above racism.

Considering all of Tamriel was assualted by the Daedra, I'd say it would take quite a bit of recovery time since just because the Daedra attacked, didn't mean Mortals still didn't try to slaughter or take advantage of the situation. A legion could only do so much when their focus is rebuilding. That's not even taking into account the Great War. This can be seen with every form of power through out Tamriel.

Before the Oblivion Crisis, the Legion failed to uphold their duties.


Just wanna be sure, which time period are you discussing here?

Before the Crisis and now after.


I'm not sure the context, nor who this character is. However we all understand the basic concept that one man does not speak for everyone. Provide context please.

This may be interesting.

No, one man of course doesn't speak for everyone. Though the general regard to being savages is well known, Tullius himself makes a remark.

The context is between a Nord and a former Legion Officer. The Nord is angry because his daughter was killed by bandits during a raid on his village in Skyrim, the Legion garrison did nothing.

Neville: So Nord, if you find the gold, what will you spend it on? Wait, let me guess, a sleazy whore and a nice new battleaxe. Am I right?Nels: I'm going to open a tavern. Not that I'd welcome your patronage. No pigs allowed inside you see. You Legion types tend to stink up a place.
Neville: A Tavern? Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Oh, I should have known! Leave it to a barbarian to spend an entire chest full of gold on beer and mead. How pathetic.
Nels: You can call me a barbarian. It's true and I'm proud of the fact. But you call me pathetic again and I'm going to show you just how barbaric I am.
Neville: With every word you speak you're just proving me right, Nord. Your kind has contributed nothing to our Empire and never will!
Nels: Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! "My kind," as you like to call us are plenty happy serving our own needs while your useless Empire crumbles down around you.
Neville: Your words border on treason, Nord, and I will not tolerate them! You will respect the Empire! You will respect the memory of our dear Emperor!
Nels: Bah! Don't get your linens in a bunch! You have no authority in this house, or anywhere else! You're not even in the Legion anymore!
Neville: Nevertheless, I still serve the Empire in my heart and will not abide such talk! Walk away from me now, barbarian, or you'll regret your arrogance!
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Considering the War Crimes Ulfric caused, its no surprise they've become savage. Elven kind can argue that all Humans are savage (by using Nords for example). And they do, constantly saying how savage and how guides humans are by their emotions. Does that mean you agree with the Thalmor's style of thinking, just to suit you?

Considering how Imperials treat prisoners, they can hardly shout war crimes. Using Imperials for example;

In Oblivion, Valen Dreth target for assassination in the Dark Brotherhood when confronting him there is an Imperial Jailer talking to him about how he'll miss the good times they had when giving him beatings, chaining him up etc.

Torturer: "You fellows happened along just in time. These boys seemed a bit upset at how I've been entertaining their comrades."
Torturer: "Don't bother with that. Lost the key ages ago. Poor fellow screamed for weeks."

By supporting the Empire does that mean you agree to a bureaucracy in which the ruling body of the Empire are the extremely wealthy that buy their Elder Council seats?

Taking into account the Eastern Provinces when they were part of the Empire, much could be said for the Northern.

Indeed, a few beneficiaries of Imperial monopolies in the provinces do profit from exploitation of their wealth and resources. But does the Empire as a whole benefit? Hardly. The vast machineries of the Imperial bureaucracies cost far more to maintain than can be recovered in duties and taxes.

Instead of using our Imperial legions to free the wretched Khajiit and Argonian slaves from their Dark Elf masters, we pay our troopers to PROTECT the indefensible institution of slavery. Within the ebony mines of Morrowind, bloated monopolists under Imperial charters exploit slave labor to harvest the outrageous profits assured by rampant graft and corruption.

...and when we have only exploited the most shameful and evil practices we have found in Morrowind and Black Marsh simply to enrich the friends and flatterers of the Imperial family.

Back into Skyrim.

"Damn you Stormcloaks. Skyrim was fine until you came along. Empire was nice and lazy."

Empire has been lazy for quite a number of years, before the Great War and Oblivion Crisis. How does the Legion hope to protect the citizenry of Skyrim when they can barely protect the citizenry of Cyrodiil.

Ulfric killed his High King, but the Elder Council perhaps killed the Emperor Titus Mede II. We're all fighting for murderers here.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
So wait a minute, you go from claiming that these people are savage killers who deserve to be enslaved to now claiming it'd be the honorable thing to give them back their lands? Are you kidding me?

"You want to know who the Forsworn are? We are the people who must pillage our own land. Burn our own ground. We are the scourge of the Nords. The axe that falls in the dark. The scream before the gods claim your soul. We are the true sons and daughters of the Reach. The spirits and hags have lived here from the beginning, and they are on our side. Go back. Go back and tell your Empire that we will have our own kingdom again. And on that day, we will be the ones burying your dead in a land that is no longer yours."
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_"Madmen"_of_the_ReachThe Forsworn acknowledge that the Empire took their land away, not Ulfric and his army. In fact that the Forsworn essentially declared war against the Empire to get back their kingdom.

Since Markarth is Imperial control hold... the very idea of accusing Ulfric Stormcloak of enslaving the native people (Forsworn) is absurd. The Empire allows

The "Madmen" of the Reach - by Arrianus Arius, Imperial Scholar

Where's your evidence that he was told to take the Reach back at all cost.

Put yourself in the same position that Igmunds father was in. You hired Ulfric and his Stormcloak army to retake back the Reach. What would you tell Ulfric during the business transaction? It's common sense really.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
Imperials have been trying to regain strength for the better part of two hundred years.
No they haven't. During the reign of Titus Mede I, there were no less than 18 full Legions and possibly more. The Empire has been trying to recover from its losses for less than a generation
Legions are rarely even seen doing their most basic of duties to protect to citizenry, either claiming not enough man power or flat out refusing.
This isn't Cyrodiil, or even Third Era Morrowind. It seems pretty clear that in Skyrim protecting the citzenry in the ordinary course of business is the duty of the Hold guards, and the Imperial Legions do protect the citzenry in the Holds in which they establish control during the Imperial Legion quest line. I've never encountered a single instance of Legionnaires shirking from their duties in Skyrim.
Where was the Legion during the defense of Bruma? Where was the Legion when bandits were attacking villages in Skyrim? Or where was the Legion when Raven Rock came under siege?

Imperial Legion maintains garrisons in all the provinces of the Empire. So where are they when they're needed?
The Imperial Legions suffered huge losses during the Great War. What would you have them do with such limited resources afterwards? Anyone can bitch and moan about the status of things, but if they don't have any better alternatives it's nothing more than pointless bitching and moaning. The Empire has been moving at the best pace it can in regaining military strength lost to the Great War. Do you think that waging a civil war and drawing in Imperial Legion resources makes things better or worse? Do you think reducing the overall viable population to constitute the military for both the Imperial Legion and the Stormcloaks and the decimation of resources that could otherwise aid in the recovery of both the province and the military regardless of the victor makes things better or worse?
Why would the Nords want to fight for an Empire that views them like this?

Neville: With every word you speak you're just proving me right, Nord. Your kind has contributed nothing to our Empire and never will!
What are you even talking about here? Neville is a random citizen of the Empire. His bigotted views have absolutely nothing to do with the Empire's views.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
No they haven't. During the reign of Titus Mede I, there were no less than 18 full Legions and possibly more. The Empire has been trying to recover from its losses for less than a generation

During the reign of Uriel VII, Legions unable or unwilling to protect villages within Skyrim. Fort Moonmoth in Morrowind claiming to have no one to spare to deal with bandits.

This isn't Cyrodiil, or even Third Era Morrowind. It seems pretty clear that in Skyrim protecting the citzenry in the ordinary course of business is the duty of the Hold guards, and the Imperial Legions do protect the citzenry in the Holds in which they establish control during the Imperial Legion quest line. I've never encountered a single instance of Legionnaires shirking from their duties in Skyrim.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Imperial_Deserter

The Legion is protecting the citizenry after open rebellion.

Edit: Hammerfell was also plagued with infighting between Crowns and Forebears before the Great War even began, what were the 18 Legions doing all that time. They allow Hammerfell to fight each other but step in the Nord Civil War because the High King was killed.

"The savages are killing each other." "Lets watch." *High King dies* "Alright break it up."

The Imperial Legions suffered huge losses during the Great War. What would you have them do with such limited resources afterwards? Anyone can bitch and moan about the status of things, but if they don't have any better alternatives it's nothing more than pointless bitching and moaning. The Empire has been moving at the best pace it can in regaining military strength lost to the Great War. Do you think that waging a civil war and drawing in Imperial Legion resources makes things better or worse? Do you think reducing the overall viable population to constitute the military for both the Imperial Legion and the Stormcloaks and the decimation of resources that could otherwise aid in the recovery of both the province and the military regardless of the victor makes things better or worse?

The Imperial Legions did suffer large losses, but if they still had the 18 Legions, with say 5000 in each Legion. They lost three Legions, and did not have more than half in each Legion. So we'll say 2000 soldiers in each Legion. 30,000 Legionnaires give or take, twenty six years slowly recovering their losses. The Legionnaires you come across in Skyrim speak of joining the Legion recently, with it being something more of a militia as Rikke's dialogue suggests. The resources from the war effort are coming from Solitude's stockpiles as mentioned in the guide for Legion officers and Elisif's dialogue.

So which Legion resources are we talking about? Technically the only two people who mention coming from Cyrodiil who are part of the Legion is Legate Fasendil and General Tullius. Tullius himself also mentions he is being denied the man power and resources he's requesting, the Empire isn't throwing in large resources into crushing the rebellion.

Speaking with Ralof and Hadvar seems to suggest Cyrodiil isn't paying much attention. "You haven't heard of the civil war in Skyrim? I guess down in Cyrodiil people have other things to worry about." Yes... like worrying about violent outbreaks and death.

Cicero says it isn't safe within the Imperial province.

What are you even talking about here? Neville is a random citizen of the Empire. His bigotted views have absolutely nothing to do with the Empire's views.

Neville is an ex Legionnaire. Not exactly your random citizen.

Being Pro Stormcloak is hard :sadface: Stop raping me Dags.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Raijin and I decided to switch things up, he'll be defending the Empire and I'll be defending the Stormcloaks. Imperial supporters, throw your arguments up and just remember Stormblade DrunkenMage doesn't take prisoners ;)

OK so here's my attempt to defend the Empire.

799px-SR-place-The_Katariah.jpg

Look at our badass ship. Ulfric could only imagine owning one of these... especially when theirs a hot woman in the front.

Our leader, Emperor Titus Mede II
TESV_Emperor.png

dresses far better than your King murderous leader, Ulfric Stormcloak.

Ulfric_Jarl.png

I mean whats with the bondage style clothing hes wearing? Who is he trying to impress? Galmar STONE-FIST?

Oh and how your leader fears us... That's why you refuse to invade solitude when our leader was present.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Raijin and I decided to switch things up, he'll be defending the Empire and I'll be defending the Stormcloaks. Imperial supporters, throw your arguments up and just remember Stormblade DrunkenMage doesn't take prisoners ;)

OK so here's my attempt to defend the Empire.


Look at our badass ship. Ulfric could only imagine owning one of these... especially when theirs a hot woman in the front.

Our leader, Emperor Titus Mede II

dresses far better than your King murderous leader, Ulfric Stormcloak.


I mean whats with the bondage style clothing hes wearing? Who is he trying to impress? Galmar STONE-FIST?

Oh and how your leader fears us... That's why you refuse to invade solitude when our leader was present.

Why does Titus II have a constipated look? The old man is plopsting his pants.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Why does Titus II have a constipated look? The old man is pl***ting his pants.

He probably ate too much of your crappy Nord food that cause him to be constipated.

Food in Skyrim tastes like pl***. Why do you think the Nords are racist assholes? Being constipated is what cause them to be such an asshole.

I thought it was that sheep's piss we pour into bottles and label it as Colovian brandy.
 

Recent chat visitors

Latest posts

Top