Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Will Olmen]

Not everyone is willing to bow down to the AD like what the empire did.

That is a truly naive thing to say. Anyone who thinks the Empire simply bowed down is a self centered, close minded child living in a pretend world with no real concept of how things work. The Empire lost tens of thousands of people. They fought a long a bloody war. The Imperial City was taken and the Aldmeri Dominion didn't just take it and occupy it politely. Rape, murder, ethnic cleansing and experiments of a medical and magical nature were performed on its denizens. The Empire did not simply give in to demands. They took the necessary steps to secure peace enough for their people so the Empire could strengthen. And not just their people. The war effort was costing the Elsweyr Khajiit tremendously. They may not have been directly involved but as client states the Khajiit people's economies were fueling the war for the Dominion. Much more and they would have had nothing left to survive. Valenwood's people were being FORCED into military service by a puppet government secretly put in place by the Thalmor. Continuing the war would have put further pressures on the Bosmer and cost them countless more innocent lives.

The Empire accepted terms because it was the RIGHT thing to do. Continuing the war then and there would have led to a never-ending back and forth conflict of attrition that neither side had the clear advantage to win. It would have cost both sides the entirety of their economies, ruining the lives of EVERY CITIZEN in their lands. Food would be directed entirely to the war effort and over time both the Dominion and the Empire would steadily become stricken with famine and poverty. Which would inspire rebellions on both sides. Leading to more senseless bloodshed as a wartime government is not at all hesitant to send forces to slaughter entire villages so that every man, woman and child is unable to revolt ever again. And the Dominion would have no issue whatsoever with throwing the Bosmer of ANY age against Imperial forces to try and outnumber them at that point. Is that what you would have preferred? The Elder Scrolls: Child Warfare? Maybe you could have played the dragonborn using inferno breath to burn terrified Bosmer kids to death.

And the war ISN'T over. It's just being fought in the dark. We SEE the Thalmor agents in Skyrim because we're in Skyrim. Don't be so simple minded as to not believe the Empire has agents in the Dominion. Imperials are great infantrymen. But they are also very dangerous subterfuge agents. The reason the Thalmor hate the Blades so much is evidence of that. The Empire carried out Clandestine missions before the war ever started and they hurt the Dominion quite a bit. Bad enough to be the Dominion's SOLE FOCUS for a very long time.

And I've said it before, I'll say it again. Supporting the Stormcloaks IS supporting the Thalmor. Ulfric is an unwitting pawn of the Thalmor. They are drip-feeding him what he needs to disrupt the Empire as much as possible and he isn't even bright enough to realize that his intelligence network isn't half as good as the intel it's providing. Anyone who supports the Stormcloaks may THINK they're fighting for Skyrim. In reality they're just playing the Thalmor's game and weakening the Empire for the next war.

And no. If the Dominion took Cyrodiil and KEPT it, Skyrim could NOT defend itself from a two-front war the Dominion would bring down upon them. The Stormcloaks aren't thinking that far ahead though. And that's fine. I'll just kill Ulfric over and over again and make it a non-issue.

 

[Jeremius]

just throwing this out there, but does anyone think that picking a side in the CW is like spitting on one tradition in favor of another?

i think so.

 

[Dagmar]

You're joking, right? The civil war was intimate soon after the empire signed the treaty.

It been over 25 years. I'm assuming you meant "imminent" and not "intimate" and if you did then you clearly have no understanding of the meaning of the word.

It was matter of time before an organization (Stormcloaks) becomes well established, and organized to retake back their homeland.

Yes, yes, yes...well....no...not reallly...not at all. Historically it's taken most rebellions a small fraction of the time that's elapsed since the signing of the White-Gold Concordat. Ulfric already had a full militia that constitutes the core of the Stomcloaks 1 year after the signing of the Concordat. What he didn't have was a younger naive High King to easily kill. Istlad would never have been manipulated into trial by combat by Ulfric which only enforces the notion that Ulfric's primary motive in the civil war is his ambition to become High King.

Do you think for a moment that the nords (even none nords) would stand up to such treachery? The ban the worship of Talos?

I don't have to think it. It's a fact. They accepted the conditions for the better part of 3 decades.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

And the empire forced the nords to fight against each other after they ban the worship of Talos. They're the ones that started this war. Again nobody wants to put the blame on Igmund, an imperial supporting Jarl for the deaths that Ulfric supposedly committed in his jurisdiction. Igmund hired Ulfric to take care of the forsworn problem just so that the empire can retake the reach.

If Ulfric truly did kill innocent children, women and men then why didn't Igmund had Ulfric arrested for crimes against humanity? Why didn't he executed Ulfric for his heinous crimes? Seems like Igmund only cares about himself, and not for his people if he allowed a murderer go free. Wouldn't you agree with me?

What are you even saying? The Empire isn't forcing Nords to do anything, they're dealing with Ulfric's tantrum which in turn prolonges the Thalmor occupation, it says clearly in dossiers that the Aldmeri are using the war to their advantage. Igmund asked Ulfric to take back the city, not to kill every man women and child that weren't even affiliated with Forsworn. They were Nords, Nords who Igmund wanted. But because they didn't fight, they were all killed.

...Ulfric was arrested, regardless Igmund probably didn't know about what happened as all he knew was that Ulfric retook the city, how or by what means weren't clear to him until people who were there began talking and writing books. You're essentially trying to justify the slaughter of men, women and children.

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[Flint firestorm]

I assume you're referring to Talos. If so, the fact his shrines confer all the same benefits as the shrines to the other Divines is pretty compelling evidence.

Nocturnals shrine gives you benifits. Prove it's not a deadra named talos. Malacath was human but became a deadra lord.

Also rebellions are supposed to be about the people fighting against oppression. If this is truly a rebellion and not one mans lust for power then why isn't every one with him? Why are the jarls who back the empire not being overthrown by the people? Why are nords still fighting for the empire?

 

[Dork Angel]

Nocturnals shrine gives you benifits. Prove it's not a deadra named talos. Malacath was human but became a deadra lord.

All of the Divine Shrines confer their blessing and remove all diseases. Don't the Nocturnal Shrines just confer their blessings.

 

[Will Olmen]

Also since it was never explained how he became a god how do we even know he was a god?

Because he is. Talos IS one of the Divines. Remember Wulf from Morrowind? The guy that gives you his Lucky Coin that literally fortifies your luck by 20 and turns you into a crit throwing death dealer before fighting Dagoth Ur? That's Talos' avatar on Tamriel.

The contention between whether or not Talos truly ascended can actually be explained through his use of the Numidium. This device was created by the Dwemer to serve as a kind of holy artifact. It gave great power and was supposed to help the Dwemer transcend the mortal world. Originally this device was powered by the Heart of Lorkhan. Lorkhan is known as the hero of man, the trickster to Mer ( Who blame him directly for their mortality) and by the Nords as the Lost God. The only Divine to truly ever die. Originally Lorkhan was considered the ninth divine. But in time worship for him dwindled and was forgotten. Likely because he was quite literally dead and no longer giving blessings. By using the Numidium, now powered by the Mantella, it is believe to be possible that Tiber Septim actually 'mantled' Lorkhan. In other words he took Lorkhan's place among the Divine. That is how he ascended to godhood and achieved a place among the Eight other Divines. If you're looking for an explanation.

For those curious about Lorkhan it is said that he quite literally created the race of men from nothing and either created or saved the world of Tamriel from Mehrunes Dagon. And likely the reason the Aldmeri singled Talos out in their war on religion is because they too view him as an offense. You see the Elves believe that Lorkhan is the one that tricked the Aedra into giving up their divinity. Some of those aedra became the Ehlnofey and subsequently the Aldmer. So banning Talos worship is perhaps a stab at Lorkhan. Or simply hate because it was Talos that broke their original Empire. Or both.

Anyway. There's your 'Talos is a God' explanation.

 

[Flint firestorm]

But what I'm saying is how does any one in tamreil know he is a god? Sure we know the shrines work and we can read wikipiedia but why do the people of the empire believe in him?

 

[Will Olmen]

Why do people believe in Jesus? Because there is a book of eye witness accounts attesting to his incredible actions. And these stories are told by acolytes and believers to others. And these accounts inspire people to be the best they can be. After all Talos is the god of War and Governance. So any warrior or leader of men would want his favor. And to earn it they would need to be devout and follow his lifestyle. Justice and strength. And a leader of others would want his wisdom and tactical prowess to guide themselves and their followers along the path. Even common folk would aspire to better themselves if only to feel closer to the single greatest man to ever walk the world. To follow in Tiber Septim's footsteps is to lead a blessed and worthwhile life.

If you want a reason as to WHY people believe in him there's two answers. The Philosophical one being that faith is a feeling of the heart. And his followers FEEL he is real. Even with the White-Gold Concordat in action nobody can truly say they've cast aside the feelings of his divine guidance unless they never believed to begin with. Someone raised Catholic can go around and call themselves an Atheist all they like but somewhere, deep down, they have a latent faith. And if about to be killed by a giant bear in a bullet proof body suit I doubt they'd shout "Dear Science take mercy on me."

And then there's the second answer. They believe he is a God because he has worked through Avatars to influence events to those he is watching over. Not to mention taking your disease ridden child to an altar and saying "Hey Talos, my kid is dying but we love you." And then watching a little swirl of blue light turn your puss filled bag of near dead kid into a playful little scamp within a matter of seconds might be a bit convincing. Point is you can't come into the world of Tamriel and say "How do you KNOW someone is a God?" Because Tamriel isn't Earth. They aren't entirely reliant on Faith. They have LITERALLY WITNESSED the DIVINE INTERVENTION and DIVINE GUIDANCE of their deities. That would be like me coming to your house and saying "How do you know your dad is actually your dad? You weren't there the night he supposedly boinked your mom and conceived you." It's asinine. He's your dad because you spent your whole life knowing he's your dad. He did dad stuff. And mom claims he's dad. So he's dad.

 

[Dork Angel]

For the same reason they believe in any of the Divines - and I'm sure the shrines cure their diseases too.

 

[Flint firestorm]

No what I'm saying s how did they come to the conclusion that he became a god if they dont know how? Also what do you mean the greatest man? That's like saying george washington is the greatest man who ever lived. He may be the greatest to Americans but not to the british or the Germans.

 

[Will Olmen]

You are officially either trying to troll this thread or one of the thickest skulls on the planet.

You're trying to force a VERY LIMITED perspective you've gotten by living on EARTH into a world that has GIANT FLYING LIZARDS and people that can throw LIGHTNING from their HANDS while conjuring BEINGS MADE OF FIRE and curing diseases with drinks made by smashing ASHES from UNDEAD SUPERBEINGS together with CRAB SHELL and hauling around SIX HUNDRED POUNDS of equipment.

They BELIEVE he is a God. And who knows how that got started? I'd be willing to bet it got started in a very Jesus like fashion. People saw him performing god damned AMAZING stuff during his life, did a little praying to him after his death and then felt genuinely touched when they did. Which spawned belief. Belief that caught on and spread.

And I mean he's the single greatest man to ever live because in TAMRIEL he was the SINGLE GREATEST MAN TO EVER LIVE. He lived to be 108, performed MIRACLES that saved countless lives, fulfilled a prophecy and formed the first Government that UNITED the entire CONTINENT under a flag of mutual betterment and peace. The Elves of the Summerset Isles may not like him. But I didn't say he was the greatest ELF or BEING. I said MAN. And as human beings go no single individual has ever accomplished anything NEAR what he accomplished.

Seriously. Who gave you internet?

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

You are officially either trying to troll this thread or one of the thickest skulls on the planet.

You're trying to force a VERY LIMITED perspective you've gotten by living on EARTH into a world that has GIANT FLYING LIZARDS and people that can throw LIGHTNING from their HANDS while conjuring BEINGS MADE OF FIRE and curing diseases with drinks made by smashing ASHES from UNDEAD SUPERBEINGS together with CRAB SHELL and hauling around SIX HUNDRED POUNDS of equipment.

They BELIEVE he is a God. And who knows how that got started? I'd be willing to bet it got started in a very Jesus like fashion. People saw him performing god damned AMAZING stuff during his life, did a little praying to him after his death and then felt genuinely touched when they did. Which spawned belief. Belief that caught on and spread.

And I mean he's the single greatest man to ever live because in TAMRIEL he was the SINGLE GREATEST MAN TO EVER LIVE. He lived to be 108, performed MIRACLES that saved countless lives, fulfilled a prophecy and formed the first Government that UNITED the entire CONTINENT under a flag of mutual betterment and peace. The Elves of the Summerset Isles may not like him. But I didn't say he was the greatest ELF or BEING. I said MAN. And as human beings go no single individual has ever accomplished anything NEAR what he accomplished.

Seriously. Who gave you internet?

Well put.

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[Templar of Talos]

No what I'm saying s how did they come to the conclusion that he became a god if they dont know how? Also what do you mean the greatest man? That's like saying george washington is the greatest man who ever lived. He may be the greatest to Americans but not to the british or the Germans.

Talos IS a divine and it's apparent that unlike Christianity and other real world religions the existance of the 9 Divines has been proved throughout the series.

 

[Flint firestorm]

I wasn't trying to make anyone mad. I just wanted to try and look at this from the perspective of the people living in tamriel. However I dont think the shrines in the game were well thought out as you do here of people dying of diseases and if the shrines heal everyone and not just the dragonborn then how could the thalmor even begin to question taloses divinity?

 

[TheGingerCat]

Join the imperials.after some thinking i realized that ulfric did not think about the consequences of starting a civil war.they are just weakening skyrim for a thalmor attack.plus,he challenged the high king to battle and cheaply won by using the voice.and all he wants to be is high king,so i think the stormcloaks are a bunch of hot headed racist nords

 

[Flint firestorm]

If what ulfric is doing is what the people want then how come some nods don't back him?

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Malacath was human but became a deadra lord.

Malacath was never human. Before he became Malacath his name was Trinimac, who was a warrior spirit of the original Elven tribes that led armies against Men.

 

[Templar of Talos]

If what ulfric is doing is what the people want then how come some nods don't back him?

So all NoRds are the same are they? You've been hanging around the Elves for too long...

It's a well known fact that not everyone is going to agree, that why there's a war on.

The game, and I'll stress this once again IT IS ONLY A GAME!!! would not be very interesting without some sort of conflict. Or we may as well start playing Mario Brothers...

It's how it was written, it's not perfect, it's not realisitc, it's not supposed to be...

 

[Jeremius]

i have a question. IS it just me or is Elisif more of a big picture, see what the future holds kind of Jarl, and is only easily swayed by stronger-willed advisers because she is not sure of how to run her hold in a crisis?