Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
i'm not sure if this was already mentioned but the Stormcloaks seem hypocritical, since they want to worship their god but the Forsworn are not allowed to worship their gods. at least IMHO.

I think it's safe to say that EVERYONE (Both humans and elves) in skyrim are hypocrites. It's very typical, even in the RL.

It's too bad that you can't side with Alduin to destroy both man and elf kind in skyrim, and then throughout Tamriel.

I think I'm going to become a dragon priest, and give my entire life in full obedience to Paarthurnax, and to the Greybeards.
 

Jersey Dagmar

Just in time for the fiyahworks show! BOOM!
i'm not sure if this was already mentioned but the Stormcloaks seem hypocritical, since they want to worship their god but the Forsworn are not allowed to worship their gods. at least IMHO.

The Forsworn worship old ladies with feathered coochies. Not the kind of thing I would want to worship, honestly.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
they revere the hagravens. not worship them. they worship their old gods, but that is not the point. the point was, JD, that the Stormcloaks want to Worship their god Talos, but the nords won't let the Forsworn worship their gods (who are not the hagravens)
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
they revere the hagravens. not worship them. they worship their old gods, but that is not the point. the point was, JD, that the Stormcloaks want to Worship their god Talos, but the nords won't let the Forsworn worship their gods (who are not the hagravens)

But again Vigilant of Stendarr goes after Daedra worshippers.

When you ask 'em "You hunt daedra?"

One of the members response back with "And any other abominations that prey on mortals. Vampires. Werewolves. Witches. But the Daedra are the worst. Their callous disregard for our lives is abhorrent in the eyes of the God of Mercy."

One of their general lines are "The Mercy of Stendarr does not extend to Daedra worshippers."

I rest my case that humans and the elves are all bunch of hypocrites that moans and complains.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
Daedric lords disregard mortal lives and abuse their followers and champions as well as cause the deaths of innocents for amusement. It's the same logic to why in the US you can worship whatever you want but sacrificing or killing another human being under a worship is illegal. Even the "good" daedric lords disregard lives like cattle. The vigilants of stendarr kinda have a reason to not accept a cult or cults who slaughter innocents.
 

Mr.Self Destruct

Chosen Undead
Raijin, he ordered the deaths of children, men and women who weren't even Forsworn. They were Nords, talos worshipping Nords that didn't side with him. You think that's the quality of good leadership?

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Ivory

Let's Player
But some people actually like the abuse that they get, It's called masochism. Let them worship whatever gods/daedra that they want.
If they wanna do that let them I agree, but name one daedric lord who is satisfied with his torturing his/her followers only. I'm kinda beginning to think you're just trying to argue for the sake of arguing buddy.
 
I thought the writing was really good on the whole civil war thing. Both sides had valid points and there was no easy black and white choice. I held off a long time on choosing a side and did the trial test for both sides. Eventually I was forced to choose the Empire as I had gotten the Storm Cloaks to agree to a temporary truce but when I went to speak to the Empire they only gave me the dialog choice to swear the oath and wouldn't let me discuss the truce until I had joined up. I was swaying towards the Empire at that point anyway based on the Thalmar Dossier on Ulfric and his actions in Markarth. By the end I had sympathy for all involved including the Foresworn and was frustrated that the real enemy was the Thalmar and they escaped relatively unscathed. I regret leaving so many alive at the Embassy.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Raijin, he ordered the deaths of children, men and women who weren't even Forsworn. They were Nords, talos worshipping Nords that didn't side with him. You think that's the quality of good leadership?

Sent from HTC app Tapatalk

And the empire forced the nords to fight against each other after they ban the worship of Talos. They're the ones that started this war. Again nobody wants to put the blame on Igmund, an imperial supporting Jarl for the deaths that Ulfric supposedly committed in his jurisdiction. Igmund hired Ulfric to take care of the forsworn problem just so that the empire can retake the reach.

If Ulfric truly did kill innocent children, women and men then why didn't Igmund had Ulfric arrested for crimes against humanity? Why didn't he executed Ulfric for his heinous crimes? Seems like Igmund only cares about himself, and not for his people if he allowed a murderer go free. Wouldn't you agree with me?
 

Will Olmen

Member
I won't restate all the information I already presented in the 'Now that Ulfric is High King...' thread but I will chip in my two cents here.

People seem to be focusing on the moral backdrops between Stormcloak and Empire more than the military reality of the situation. And that is, no offense, naive. Should religious freedom be allowed? Yes. Is Ulfric's rebellion based on something worthwhile? Yes, actually. Should the Stormcloaks win? No. And here's why.

The Stormcloaks might be able to consolidate Skyrim and defend themselves from an attack by the Dominion directly. But if the Empire loses the Skyrim province they will lose one of their single greatest assets. Nords. Nords are some of the strongest and fiercest warriors in the Legions. The Empire knows it. So do the Dominion. That's why the Dominion is fueling and manipulating events into this war in the first place. You may think Ulfric is fighting for the freedom of his people, a hero of Talos and so on. And even he believes that. But the simple truth is that he's able and positioned to do that because the Thalmor arranged, manipulated and worked clandestinely to get it to that point. If Skyrim becomes independent the Dominion will be one step closer to marching into Cyrodiil. And while the Imperials could give them quite the bloody nose, without the ability to call on legions from Skyrim the Empire will fall. Unless they can inspire the oppressed peoples of Elsweyr and Valenwood to begin open rebellion.

Ulfric Stormcloak is a good leader. He is charismatic. He is passionate. And the fact that after all this time he has honored and continued the arrangement between Windhelm and the refugee Dunmer is evidence that he is not a Nord supremest. He has a pro-nord agenda, but that doesn't mean he's a psychopath. His 'our side or dead side' policy is extreme. And if he has any weakness it would be that. BUT it's not necessarily malicious. When trying to shift a government into new hands it is advisable to make sure dissent is cut out early on. Cruel but true. All that said, let's face reality. Ulfric wants POWER more than he wants the liberation of Skyrim. The average Nord still believes in Talos. And many of them continued to worship Talos in the privacy of their own home. You'll notice that the Talos priest SHOUTING anti-Thalmor messages and praising the mighty Talos in Whiterun goes day in and day out without a single Thalmor coming to get him. Why? Because Jarl Balgruuf keeps them out of his territory whenever possible. What Balgruuf doesn't do is raise an army behind a pro-Talos facade. Ulfric's actions have made it HARDER for Nords to practice their religion. Not easier. And he knows it. The Thalmor taking Talos worshipers has NOTHING to do with Talos anymore. They're using it as a way to agitate the populace of Skyrim and fuel the war. Each Talos worshiping nord arrested means two family members joining the Stormcloaks and not the Empire. Ulfric isn't just working to free skyrim, with the Thalmor's manipulation he's also steadily nibbling away at the Dominion's only threat. Whether he knows it or not his lust for control is ultimate aiding the agents he hates most.

So why Empire over Stormcloaks? Because anyone with half a mind for military and political analysis can see what's happening here. The Stormcloaks may be good for a MINORITY of Nords who are not content to worship Talos in the privacy of their homes - it should be noted that most IMPERIALS are hinted to still worship Talos quietly as well. But the Empire is good for EVERYBODY that doesn't want to be a slave to the Aldmeri Dominion. Valenwood and Elsweyr are only working with the dominion on the governmental level. The rich and prominent members benefiting while the common people are little more than slaves and second class citizens. The Empire is their hope for eventual freedom. But the Empire needs Skyrim to succeed. Anyone who helps the Stormcloaks may think they're fighting for Skyrim. But whether they know it or not, they're fighting for the Aldmeri Dominion.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
And the empire forced the nords to fight against each other after they ban the worship of Talos. They're the ones that started this war.
More rhetoric and nonsense. Skyrim was at peace until Ulfric killed the High King. That is the undeniable event that ignites the civil war regardless of your constant attempts to insist otherwise.
 

Valyn

Member
Skyrim was at peace until Ulfric killed the High King. That is the undeniable event that ignites the civil war regardless of your constant attempts to insist otherwise.
Ulfric wouldn't of killed Torygg if the Empire had just let him have his way.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
uhh, the Thalmor caught wind of it and force Igmund and the Empire, through torygg to rescind their promise.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
Ulfric wouldn't of killed Torygg if the Empire had just let him have his way.
So what? He did kill Torygg, and that did start the civil war. The Empire didn't force Ulfric to do anything. He's not a Pavlovian dog. He has free will. It's been pointed out numerous times that killing Torygg was by no means the only clear path to independence for Skyrim. (It, and the predictable civil war that would follow, is however the only clear path to Ulfric becoming High King himself.)
 

Flint firestorm

The leading man, who else?
Attrebus Mede proves that the empire didn't die with the septims.

Also since it was never explained how he became a god how do we even know he was a god?
 
Attrebus Mede proves that the empire didn't die with the septims.

Also since it was never explained how he became a god how do we even know he was a god?

I assume you're referring to Talos. If so, the fact his shrines confer all the same benefits as the shrines to the other Divines is pretty compelling evidence.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
So what? He did kill Torygg, and that did start the civil war. The Empire didn't force Ulfric to do anything. He's not a Pavlovian dog. He has free will. It's been pointed out numerous times that killing Torygg was by no means the only clear path to independence for Skyrim. (It, and the predictable civil war that would follow, is however the only clear path to Ulfric becoming High King himself.)

You're joking, right? The civil war was intimate soon after the empire signed the treaty. It was matter of time before an organization (Stormcloaks) becomes well established, and organized to retake back their homeland. Do you think for a moment that the nords (even none nords) would stand up to such treachery? The ban the worship of Talos? The old empire would never surrender. The nords are quite stubborn, and not all are willing to secretly worship Talos on their home land. Why should they have to hide it? Not everyone is willing to bow down to the AD like what the empire did.

Killing High King Toygg was the starting point for Skyrim's independence. It's part of change of government. Ulfric strives to be the next king of Skyrim, and he firmly believes that he can change Skyrim.
 
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