Ysgramor, Hero or Murderous Savage?

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High King of Skyrim

King of the barbarian horde
Apologies if you felt threatened, I simply meant it's unwise to assume what someone thinks about a certain topic. I will not however, refrain from speaking my mind, in this thread, or in any other. Since you took the time to explain why you believe the situations are related I'll answer your initial question. I believe that historically the elves have been threatened by the race of man. Sarthal is an example, as is the great war. In this instance, your assumption about me was incorrect. If I looked at it from the elves point of view, certainly, one may argue that their goal of domination over mankind is justified in some way, however, I choose not to. I believe from what I've seen in game and what limited lore I've studied, that the Snow Elves were a treacherous and horrible race. Same too, the Thalmor. Not all High Elves, mind you. Just the Thalmor. The Dunmer haven't displayed the same horrible traits in my opinion. Just like in any story, I've identified with certain characters and condemned others and formed opinions. Isn't that what makes this forum so interesting? If we all felt the same way about the same thing then it would bore me to tears, enjoy your evening. :p
 
Ysgramor, though he started the hunt for the Snow Elves after the betrayal that was the Night of Tears, cannot be held responsible for anything that continued after his death. Each person that continued the hunt and slaughter of Mer after Ysgramor's death is individually responsible, and just as savage. However, Ysgramor is very much a hero, at least in the eyes of most Nords.
 
Imagine a terrorist group attacks somewhere , and kills many people. The country or people being attacked then respond in kind, sending their military to strike back at the terrorists. Except wait, they find a bunch MORE. An some claim to be innocent of the crime, some say they didnt have knowledge of what was happening or being planned. Answer me this: how do you know which ones are telling the truth, or if as soon as you turned your back to go home , that they wouldn't put a knife In it?? Ysgrom did what he had to do, and finished the job to ensure it wouldn't and couldn't happen again. Is it sad? Of course. But imagine he would've stopped at killing off only a few. You think that would've been it? The elves would've just said "meh. Lets leave him and his buddies alone now." Nope . They would've amassed another army and over time eventually would've led to more bloodshed and violence on both sides.
 

Mr.Self Destruct

Chosen Undead
Imagine a terrorist group attacks somewhere , and kills many people. The country or people being attacked then respond in kind, sending their military to strike back at the terrorists. Except wait, they find a bunch MORE. An some claim to be innocent of the crime, some say they didnt have knowledge of what was happening or being planned. Answer me this: how do you know which ones are telling the truth, or if as soon as you turned your back to go home , that they wouldn't put a knife In it?? Ysgrom did what he had to do, and finished the job to ensure it wouldn't and couldn't happen again. Is it sad? Of course. But imagine he would've stopped at killing off only a few. You think that would've been it? The elves would've just said "meh. Lets leave him and his buddies alone now." Nope . They would've amassed another army and over time eventually would've led to more bloodshed and violence on both sides.

So by this logic the next time a terrorist group attacks we should wipe out their entire ethnic/racial group right

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High King of Skyrim

King of the barbarian horde
So by this logic the next time a terrorist group attacks we should wipe out their entire ethnic/racial group right

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I don't think that's what CosmicExplorer meant. Rather that, Ysgramor perceived elvenkind to be a threat, whether some weren't or not and acted like any general would. It was a violent and bloody conflict, absent of forethought and hindsight don't forget. I also believe that Ysgramor was blinded by hatred for the elves because in his mind they were responsible for the loss of his son Yngol, which doesn't necessarily condone but may explain his relentless pursuit of the elves long after he'd 'taken the lives that honour demanded'. I assure you, as a parent, nothing would be more soul destroying than losing a child. Any chance the Snow Elves may have had at mercy died with Yngol that day in my opinion. Already hungry for blood this grief only adds more fuel to an already raging fire within Ysgramor. Perhaps he thought that every elf he killed could numb his broken heart and give him some measure of peace. Whilst he wasn't without his flaws, same as any man, to me he's certainly a hero and the relatives of those who perished at Sarthal and in the ensuing conflict to follow would have agreed.
 
So by this logic the next time a terrorist group attacks we should wipe out their entire ethnic/racial group right

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The point is, they would have eventually regrouped and more wars would have come. With possible future loss of even more life on both sides . If they didnt want casualties they could've chosen not to attack at all.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
The point is, they would have eventually regrouped and more wars would have come. With possible future loss of even more life on both sides . If they didnt want casualties they could've chosen not to attack at all.
That still doesn't justify the destruction of an entire people. Assuming every Falmer supported the attack on Saarthal is unrealistic, and so condemning their entire race to death was foolish. While I hate bringing real life situations into this, but I feel as if I must. Japan attacked the USA in WWII. The allied forces won, would it have been justified to kill every single Japanese man, woman and child for their attack? USA already had locked away every Japanese American back then and to this day is seen as a horrible thing that was done to their people. We act with strong belief to never allow that to happen again. Who's to say that the Snow Elves would still be their enemies? America and Japan are practically brother countries now, with Japan heavily influenced with American cultures.
 

Fiiralmo

2nd Aldmeri Emissary to Skyrim
I hope that every Nord ever killed by a Falmer realizes that his death was at the fault of his own people. Ysgromar was a savage. He and his barbaric companions poisoned Tamriel with their brute and savage ways, and forced the Falmer into hiding, and eventually, degeneration. The Falmer were only protecting themselves, their culture, and the future prosperity and progress of their society as a whole when they attacked Saarthal. If Ysgromar had never returned after the Night of Tears, preventing the purge of the Falmer, Skyrim today would likely be a very different place, and Mer as a whole would still likely be the ruling races of Tamriel. We would be one step closer to Unity and one step closer to breaking the chains of Mundus on our people.
 
Well also we have to remember he didnt kill all the snow elves. They retreated and went into hiding underground. The Dwemer then , if my history serves me correctly, forced them into labor (like slaves I suppose). It was only after a long time of this that they started degrading into the falmer they are today. So in all fairness, ysgram played a part in their demise as a race, but was not alone in what happened. If they would have fled instead of going into hiding its possible they may still be around today
 

Fiiralmo

2nd Aldmeri Emissary to Skyrim
Well also we have to remember he didnt kill all the snow elves. They retreated and went into hiding underground. The Dwemer then , if my history serves me correctly, forced them into labor (like slaves I suppose). It was only after a long time of this that they started degrading into the falmer they are today. So in all fairness, ysgram played a part in their demise as a race, but was not alone in what happened. If they would have fled instead of going into hiding its possible they may still be around today
Yes, you are right that the Falmer are the twisted monsters they are today because of the Dwarves, but my main point was that is Ysgromar had never returned in the first place, or at least returned with more diplomatic and civilized plans in mind for the Falmer issue, the Falmer never would've had to hide with the Dwarves in the first place.
 

Edgeheaded

Dunmer Warrior
Maybe if the Falmer wouldn't have tried to cause the extinction of men in Tamriel Ysgamor wouldn't have to cause their extinction.
 

High King of Skyrim

King of the barbarian horde
I hope that every Nord ever killed by a Falmer realizes that his death was at the fault of his own people. Ysgromar was a savage. He and his barbaric companions poisoned Tamriel with their brute and savage ways, and forced the Falmer into hiding, and eventually, degeneration. The Falmer were only protecting themselves, their culture, and the future prosperity and progress of their society as a whole when they attacked Saarthal. If Ysgromar had never returned after the Night of Tears, preventing the purge of the Falmer, Skyrim today would likely be a very different place, and Mer as a whole would still likely be the ruling races of Tamriel. We would be one step closer to Unity and one step closer to breaking the chains of Mundus on our people.
Protecting themselves and their culture, by murdering innocent women and children in their beds? What amuses me about certain elven races is that they claim to be the enlightened ones. The benchmark as it were that the rest of Tamriel should aspire to. Whilst the Nords are known as a barbaric people, beneath them and hardly worthy of the land they occupy. With that in mind how is it that the supposed 'master-race'(for want of a better word) were the first race to commit genocide against helpless refugees? Don't forget that the Atmorans were the first men to ever set foot on Tamriel. They embraced the elven culture and named Skyrim Merith, in honour of their new friends and neighbours. They erected farms and towns, what on earth could have justified the treachery that would instigate their downfall? I'm yet to here a reasonable excuse for genocide, anyone?
 

Fiiralmo

2nd Aldmeri Emissary to Skyrim
Protecting themselves and their culture, by murdering innocent women and children in their beds? What amuses me about certain elven races is that they claim to be the enlightened ones. The benchmark as it were that the rest of Tamriel should aspire to. Whilst the Nords are known as a barbaric people, beneath them and hardly worthy of the land they occupy. With that in mind how is it that the supposed 'master-race'(for want of a better word) were the first race to commit genocide against helpless refugees? Don't forget that the Atmorans were the first men to ever set foot on Tamriel. They embraced the elven culture and named Skyrim Merith, in honour of their new friends and neighbours. They erected farms and towns, what on earth could have justified the treachery that would instigate their downfall? I'm yet to here a reasonable excuse for genocide, anyone?
http://theskyrimblog.ning.com/profiles/blogs/night-of-tears-a-falmer-s-account

I came upon this some time ago and just realized it would come in handy here. It describes the night of tears from the perspective of a Falmer.
The Falmer understood that the Eye of Magnus was dangerous to both man and mer, and tried many times to drive the Nords, who did not understand the immense power of the Eye, away from Saarthal, where the Eye was located. All of these attempts failed. The Falmer only became more and more desperate to keep the Eye away from the Nords. Although terrible, the Night of Tears was a last resort to prevent the Nords from tampering with the Eye and putting not only themselves, but all of Mundus in danger.
 

High King of Skyrim

King of the barbarian horde
http://theskyrimblog.ning.com/profiles/blogs/night-of-tears-a-falmer-s-account

I came upon this some time ago and just realized it would come in handy here. It describes the night of tears from the perspective of a Falmer.
The Falmer understood that the Eye of Magnus was dangerous to both man and mer, and tried many times to drive the Nords, who did not understand the immense power of the Eye, away from Saarthal, where the Eye was located. All of these attempts failed. The Falmer only became more and more desperate to keep the Eye away from the Nords. Although terrible, the Night of Tears was a last resort to prevent the Nords from tampering with the Eye and putting not only themselves, but all of Mundus in danger.
http://theskyrimblog.ning.com/profiles/blogs/night-of-tears-a-falmer-s-account

I came upon this some time ago and just realized it would come in handy here. It describes the night of tears from the perspective of a Falmer.
The Falmer understood that the Eye of Magnus was dangerous to both man and mer, and tried many times to drive the Nords, who did not understand the immense power of the Eye, away from Saarthal, where the Eye was located. All of these attempts failed. The Falmer only became more and more desperate to keep the Eye away from the Nords. Although terrible, the Night of Tears was a last resort to prevent the Nords from tampering with the Eye and putting not only themselves, but all of Mundus in danger.
So the Snow Elves murdered innocent children in their beds, so those same children would never stumble across a hidden relic far beneath the surface. Yes, the Snow Elves were such an enlightened, higher race indeed. With all the wisdom and knowledge that supposedly encompasses your average elf and none among them could see any other way but genocide. Well that is simply no excuse, and after reading that blog not only am I unconvinced of your argument, it has only served to strengthen my resolve and infuriate me further. Ysgramor truly is a hero for avenging his fallen countrymen and paving the way for mankind in Tamriel.
 
I was wandering through the Elder Scrolls Wiki and I stumbled upon this gem.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Snow_Elf

When the Atmorans arrived from Atmora, the Snow Elves struck up a somewhat comfortable relationship with the humans.[1] While at first peaceful, the Snow Elves soon discovered that the humans, though they lived shorter lives, grew in population rapidly. Seeing that the humans were rapidly beginning to outnumber the Elves in the land, the Snow Elves began to cull down the population en masse.[2]

As they regarded the humans as a lesser species, the elves had little qualms about the slaughter they intended to commit. This genocidal spree would be known as the Night of Tears.[2] However, this decision would cost them greatly, almost their entire society, as Ysgramor would survive and return to the original Nord homeland of Atmora to raise an army. Ysgramor and his army, known as the Five Hundred Companions, would return to Skyrim to take revenge on the Snow Elves. The series of events that would soon follow would be known as the Return, and with this return, a new war would begin.[3]

As time passed, the humans once again returned to Tamriel. The Nords of Atmoran lineage that had immigrated to Skyrim from Atmora had returned under the leadership of Ysgramor and his sons. An army of 500 men and women, known as the Five Hundred Companions, marched across Skyrim under Ysgramor's leadership to avenge the fallen. The elves would wage war with the humans for years, slowly losing to the very "creatures" they had culled in years prior.
The Snow Elves were broken and scattered following numerous losses to Ysgramor and the Companions and retreated to the island of Solstheim for safe harbor. Led by an elf only known as the Snow Prince, the Snow Elves took a final stand against the Nordic peoples, and, inspired by their leader, it seemed as though they'd come out victorious.

However, at the Battle of the Moesring, which was to be the last battle against the Nords, the Snow Prince was slain by a child by the name of Finna, who in her grief after the death of her mother, had stabbed him. Due to the death of the Snow Prince, the elves' hope was shattered, and a great deal of them attempted to flee the battle. It's not known what the exact date was, but it was sometime towards the end of the Merethic Era.[3][4]

With the elves finally broken once and for all, the Nords then mounted a genocidal campaign and killed Snow Elves by the thousands. The Snow Elves retreated underground where they sought refuge with the Dwemer.

The Dwemer agreed to grant them refuge, but at a high price. The Snow Elves were forced to eat toxic plants in order to survive underground. The toxins gradually destroyed their sight, and this loss was passed down to their offspring. The Dwemer then forced the blind Snow Elves into slavery.
Not all of the Snow Elves agreed to such a price. Splinter groups had formed to search for alternate solutions. These elves sought out other alliances, but, ultimately, most were slaughtered, vanished, or gave in and accepted the Dwemer's offers.

Over time, the Snow Elves began to devolve into twisted, blinded creatures, becoming the degenerate race now known as the Falmer. They acted as slaves to the Dwemer, and, over time, their history was lost as the race became more and more primal. Because of this, it is commonly believed that the Snow Elves were actually tricked into blindness and slavery, rather than having agreed to the situation to survive. This is debunked, however, upon speaking to Knight-Paladin Gelebor. He states that most Falmer agreed to the Dwemer's terms to avoid being eradicated by the Atmorans. Some pockets of resistance existed, but were eventually eliminated. Despite this, he believes there may be other isolated Snow Elf survivors scattered about Tamriel.

According to The Falmer: A Study, it was thought that the Dwemer betrayed the Snow Elves by force-feeding them a toxic fungus that inflicted blindness after they sought safe harbor in their lands. The poisoning effects of the fungi caused the Snow Elves to devolve into the twisted beings they have become.

However, according to Gelebor, this is not the case. Faced with near extinction, the Snow Elves and Dwemer struck up a deal: in exchange for safe harbor, the elves would have to ingest a toxin (likely from the mushrooms), which would blind them. With little option left, the elves accepted and became the Dwemer's slaves. Gelebor states that the toxin was not enough to de-evolve the Snow Elves as they are now, and as such it must have happened gradually as time passed.

(Following is an excerpt)

Frontier, Conquest
and Accommodation:
A Social History of Cyrodiil


Ysgramor was certainly not the first human settler in Tamriel. In fact, in "fleeing civil war in Atmora", as the Song of Return states, Ysgramor was following a long tradition of migration from Atmora; Tamriel had served as a "safety valve" for Atmora for centuries before Ysgramor's arrival. Malcontents, dissidents, rebels, landless younger sons, all made the difficult crossing from Atmora to the "New World" of Tamriel. New archeological excavations date the earliest human settlements in Hammerfell, High Rock, and Cyrodiil at ME800-1000, centuries earlier than Ysgramor, even assuming that the twelve Nord "kings" prior to Harald were actual historical figures.
 

Mr.Self Destruct

Chosen Undead
I don't think that's what CosmicExplorer meant. Rather that, Ysgramor perceived elvenkind to be a threat, whether some weren't or not and acted like any general would. It was a violent and bloody conflict, absent of forethought and hindsight don't forget. I also believe that Ysgramor was blinded by hatred for the elves because in his mind they were responsible for the loss of his son Yngol, which doesn't necessarily condone but may explain his relentless pursuit of the elves long after he'd 'taken the lives that honour demanded'. I assure you, as a parent, nothing would be more soul destroying than losing a child. Any chance the Snow Elves may have had at mercy died with Yngol that day in my opinion. Already hungry for blood this grief only adds more fuel to an already raging fire within Ysgramor. Perhaps he thought that every elf he killed could numb his broken heart and give him some measure of peace. Whilst he wasn't without his flaws, same as any man, to me he's certainly a hero and the relatives of those who perished at Sarthal and in the ensuing conflict to follow would have agreed.

Despite the events during the Night of Tears that in no way justifies a mass genocide based solely on fear and hate. If Ysgramor really thought killing innocent Elven children and women and ransacked their homes and livelihoods would make him feel better than he was a psychopath. To think that the entire race of Snow Elves was in on the sacking of Saarthal is unrealistic, and to think each and all of them deserved to be killed for the actions of a select few is rather disturbing.

To Ysgramor's credit, it is rather impressive that he was able to take Skyrim for his people with so few men. And as mentioned before the Nords would go on to help defeat the Ayelids. But still, I question the guy's sense of morality.

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Fiiralmo

2nd Aldmeri Emissary to Skyrim
Despite the events during the Night of Tears that in no way justifies a mass genocide based solely on fear and hate. If Ysgramor really thought killing innocent Elven children and women and ransacked their homes and livelihoods would make him feel better than he was a psychopath. To think that the entire race of Snow Elves was in on the sacking of Saarthal is unrealistic, and to think each and all of them deserved to be killed for the actions of a select few is rather disturbing.

To Ysgramor's credit, it is rather impressive that he was able to take Skyrim for his people with so few men. And as mentioned before the Nords would go on to help defeat the Ayelids. But still, I question the guy's sense of morality.

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Exactly! This is what I mean, The entire Snow Elf race couldn't have been involved in the Night of Tears. For Ysgromar to return and practically eradicate the Falmer from Tamriel, after only a small group of radicals destroyed Saarthal is a bit extreme. If Ysgromar wasn't a Savage, he wouldn't have lowered himself to the same level of the Snow Elves, he would've been more diplomatic. He would've shown the Snow Elves that men are above extreme acts of revenge. I can understand an eye for an eye, but an entire race for a city is rather uneven
 

High King of Skyrim

King of the barbarian horde
Despite the events during the Night of Tears that in no way justifies a mass genocide based solely on fear and hate. If Ysgramor really thought killing innocent Elven children and women and ransacked their homes and livelihoods would make him feel better than he was a psychopath. To think that the entire race of Snow Elves was in on the sacking of Saarthal is unrealistic, and to think each and all of them deserved to be killed for the actions of a select few is rather disturbing.

To Ysgramor's credit, it is rather impressive that he was able to take Skyrim for his people with so few men. And as mentioned before the Nords would go on to help defeat the Ayelids. But still, I question the guy's sense of morality.

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He was made into a psychopath by the elve's actions and betrayal. I believe him to be a hero because he took action when other men may not have had the stones. The cries of the murdered children never went unpunished thanks to him and his actions whether you condone them or not changed the face of Tamriel forever. If not for Ysgramor there would be no Empire, no kingdoms of men throughout the land. His ferocity showed the Elves that mankind was not only here to stay but to be respected lest they suffer the same fate as the Snow Elven dogs who shamed Mer as a whole. Every Empire in history has been forged in somebodies blood, I assure you.
 

Mr.Self Destruct

Chosen Undead
He was made into a psychopath by the elve's actions and betrayal.
The Elves actions and betrayal? No, only a select few betrayed Ysgramor and the original settlers. Not the entire race.
I believe him to be a hero because he took action when other men may not have had the stones. The cries of the murdered children never went unpunished thanks to him and his actions whether you condone them or not changed the face of Tamriel forever. If not for Ysgramor there would be no Empire, no kingdoms of men throughout the land. His ferocity showed the Elves that mankind was not only here to stay but to be respected lest they suffer the same fate as the Snow Elven dogs who shamed Mer as a whole. Every Empire in history has been forged in somebodies blood, I assure you.

Dude, all I'm going to say right now is that this guy slaughtered innocent citizens even after the Mer army had been defeated. He killed women and children and sowed the seats for racial animosity which would last for thousands of years. Simply think about this, an entire race killed en masse. The "cries of the murdered Nord children" were nothing compared to the cries of tens of thousands of more Mer children.

I recognize Ysgramor would pave the way for mass human settlement which would aid the Imperials against the Ayelids. Yet I believe that the genocide following the defeat of the Snow Prince was meant only to appease senseless lust for violence and that it would hold the races of Tamriel back for a while.

Think about how much further the people of Skyrim would be if Ysgramor had attempted to reach out and establish diplomacy following the defeat of the Mer army.

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High King of Skyrim

King of the barbarian horde
The Elves actions and betrayal? No, only a select few betrayed Ysgramor and the original settlers. Not the entire race.


Dude, all I'm going to say right now is that this guy slaughtered innocent citizens even after the Mer army had been defeated. He killed women and children and sowed the seats for racial animosity which would last for thousands of years. Simply think about this, an entire race killed en masse. The "cries of the murdered Nord children" were nothing compared to the cries of tens of thousands of more Mer children.

I recognize Ysgramor would pave the way for mass human settlement which would aid the Imperials against the Ayelids. Yet I believe that the genocide following the defeat of the Snow Prince was meant only to appease senseless lust for violence and that it would hold the races of Tamriel back for a while.

Think about how much further the people of Skyrim would be if Ysgramor had attempted to reach out and establish diplomacy following the defeat of the Mer army.

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Ysgramor didn't murder an entire race. Your grossly overestimating the numbers he himself murdered, truth be told nobody knows. Secondly, he forced them into hiding rather, and the Dwemer pretty much did the rest. Ysgramor seems to be held totally responsible by a lot of people I've noticed. He certainly played a part, no doubting that but the genocide continued long after he was gone and yet somehow manages to tarnish his memory, understandable, although, unfair in opinion.
 

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