Ysgramor, Hero or Murderous Savage?

[Ivory]

Ysgramor didn't murder an entire race. Your grossly overestimating the numbers he himself murdered, truth be told nobody knows. Secondly, he forced them into hiding rather, and the Dwemer pretty much did the rest. Ysgramor seems to be held totally responsible by a lot of people I've noticed. He certainly played a part, no doubting that but the genocide continued long after he was gone and yet somehow manages to tarnish his memory, understandable, although, unfair in opinion.

While I fully understand where you are coming from, you're being hypocritical. Yes, the Falmer slaughtering men, women and children in Saarthal was a screwed up event. It was obvious retribution would be at hand once Ysgramor had survived, however that still does not change that the actions he took were wrong as well. He caused what is called "The Snowball Effect." By setting the seeds of hatred in the hearts of men, allowing his Atmorans to become as savage as the Falmer had feared, not only did he plant the seeds of thousands upon thousands of years of unending hatred, but left the impression of savagery on his human brothers after his death. Nords even abandoned Magic for idiotic reasons, "because elves use magic, we won't" mentality seems to be what we find in Skyrim.

You defend Ysgramor's actions, and I 100% get that, but to say that they deserved extinction is being the exact reason why the elves see themselves as superior. This is why imperials, Bretons and other human races aren't seen as savage as the Nordic people. Even their own human kind aren't always treated with respect by the Nords.

The comparison of human to elven death is so far apart, its no competition. Ysgramor is 100% at fault for allowing his generations to be fueled by hatred for his lifetime and not working towards peace. He did not teach his people to turn off the hate switch and let it burn within his kinds hearts for so long that even today it burns and scars not just Skyrim, but all of Tamriel.

War is cruel, and savage yes. The Selected Falmer that took action against the Humans in Skyrim at the time were lowering themselves to what they feared. This was their mistake. However it was Ysgramor's actions from the time of his death, that has led to the hatred born in every Nords heart for the elven population over Tamriel. While I respect the Nords for being a somewhat honorable people today, their lack of control for their hatred and passion blinds them to be easily manipulated by others. (Example: The civil war and how the stormcloak army is stopping progress for their own Past Nordic Emperor Tiber Septim and God of Man from rebuilding itself.)

Talos/Tiber Septim was truly a Hero. He did savage things, caused pain, but never in hatred. He thrived and struck a blow to the 2nd Era by bringing full scale peace between Men, Mer and beastial races. He didnt let hatred full his heart, He let himself be motivated by the desire to bring Peace to Tamriel under the rule of his bloodline. It took a damn Daedric lord to change that, and that is far more progress than anything Ysgramor did.

 

[High King of Skyrim]

While I fully understand where you are coming from, you're being hypocritical. Yes, the Falmer slaughtering men, women and children in Saarthal was a screwed up event. It was obvious retribution would be at hand once Ysgramor had survived, however that still does not change that the actions he took were wrong as well. He caused what is called "The Snowball Effect." By setting the seeds of hatred in the hearts of men, allowing his Atmorans to become as savage as the Falmer had feared, not only did he plant the seeds of thousands upon thousands of years of unending hatred, but left the impression of savagery on his human brothers after his death. Nords even abandoned Magic for idiotic reasons, "because elves use magic, we won't" mentality seems to be what we find in Skyrim.

You defend Ysgramor's actions, and I 100% get that, but to say that they deserved extinction is being the exact reason why the elves see themselves as superior. This is why imperials, Bretons and other human races aren't seen as savage as the Nordic people. Even their own human kind aren't always treated with respect by the Nords.

The comparison of human to elven death is so far apart, its no competition. Ysgramor is 100% at fault for allowing his generations to be fueled by hatred for his lifetime and not working towards peace. He did not teach his people to turn off the hate switch and let it burn within his kinds hearts for so long that even today it burns and scars not just Skyrim, but all of Tamriel.

War is cruel, and savage yes. The Selected Falmer that took action against the Humans in Skyrim at the time were lowering themselves to what they feared. This was their mistake. However it was Ysgramor's actions from the time of his death, that has led to the hatred born in every Nords heart for the elven population over Tamriel. While I respect the Nords for being a somewhat honorable people today, their lack of control for their hatred and passion blinds them to be easily manipulated by others. (Example: The civil war and how the stormcloak army is stopping progress for their own Past Nordic Emperor Tiber Septim and God of Man from rebuilding itself.)

Talos/Tiber Septim was truly a Hero. He did savage things, caused pain, but never in hatred. He thrived and struck a blow to the 2nd Era by bringing full scale peace between Men, Mer and beastial races. He didnt let hatred full his heart, He let himself be motivated by the desire to bring Peace to Tamriel under the rule of his bloodline. It took a damn Daedric lord to change that, and that is far more progress than anything Ysgramor did.

The comparison of human to elven death so far apart, it's no competition? At Ysgramor's hands or the hands of the Nords long after he was gone? Don't confuse the two. Talos did savage things? Caused pain, but never in hatred? Laughable comparison. Nords a somewhat honourable people? On what do you base this outrages statement without contradicting yourself about an entire people suffering for the actions of a few. It was Ysgramor's actions at the time of his death that inspired Nords to hate elves? WTF? Nord people are easily manipulated? The Stormcloak's actions should hardly speak for all Nords...yet another contradiction. The selected Falmer? Who selected them exactly? Their hierarchy? government? Even though you claim the buck stops with mere foot soldiers carrying out orders.

 

[CosmicExplorer]

War isn't for the squeamish . Or for the softhearted. Sometimes it's brutal and terrible. But if he wouldn't have done what he did and the snow elves amassed another army and killed off ysgrom and his companions we'd be screaming the snow elves were bastards lol. Guess well never know what could've happened.

 

[bogdanrus98]

None. He is a powerful warrior that did what he had to save and avenge his people.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

Ysgramor didn't murder an entire race. Your grossly overestimating the numbers he himself murdered, truth be told nobody knows. Secondly, he forced them into hiding rather, and the Dwemer pretty much did the rest. Ysgramor seems to be held totally responsible by a lot of people I've noticed. He certainly played a part, no doubting that but the genocide continued long after he was gone and yet somehow manages to tarnish his memory, understandable, although, unfair in opinion.

Ysgramor led an army that practiced genocide. Of course he couldn't have personally killed each and every individual himself, but when he gives the orders to hunt down and kill he's just as responsible.

There were no future generations which continued the genocide, his death marked the end of The Return and the Humans slowed their expansion and began to settle.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

 

[High King of Skyrim]

Ysgramor led an army that practiced genocide. Of course he couldn't have personally killed each and every individual himself, but when he gives the orders to hunt down and kill he's just as responsible.

There were no future generations which continued the genocide, his death marked the end of The Return and the Humans slowed their expansion and began to settle.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

When he gives the orders to hunt down and kill he's just as responsible? So the same applies to the Snow Elves who ordered the army to attack Sarthal then? By your way of thinking, other Snow Elves other than just the ones ordered to attack Sarthal must then be held accountable. With that said they are also rightly subjected to Ysgramor's fury. Also, from what I've studied the Snow Elves never at any stage surrendered to the Atmorans and therefor war was still in effect. Correct me if I'm wrong but when two sides are at war the idea is they kill each other? Which is exactly what was happening. It wasn't as if the Atmorans slaughtered innocent children hiding in wardrobes as the elves did at Sarthal.

 

[Ivory]

The comparison of human to elven death so far apart, it's no competition?

Correct. Comparing the two are you continue to do as if they are on equal footing is a gross misunderstanding of war and slaughter.

At Ysgramor's hands or the hands of the Nords long after he was gone? Don't confuse the two.

I'm not. I clearly stated my point. Ysgramor is responsible for the hatred he instilled and encouraged in his men, which was his lapse in judgement for his own hatred.

Talos did savage things?

Yes.

Caused pain, but never in hatred? Laughable comparison.

Why? Because unlike his atmoran forefather he didnt believe in slaughtering an entire race to make peace?

Nords a somewhat honourable people?

Considering their afterlife involves honor upon death, why does this confuse you?

On what do you base this outrages statement without contradicting yourself about an entire people suffering for the actions of a few.

Elaborate.

It was Ysgramor's actions at the time of his death that inspired Nords to hate elves? WTF?

Re-read my statement. I said the actions he took to the point of his death. were hatred for the elven people of Tamriel.

Nord people are easily manipulated?

The Nords that allow their emotions to get the better of them over their reasoning, yes.
Note: I am NOT saying all Nords. I am saying the ones that allow their emotions to rule their judgement.

The Stormcloak's actions should hardly speak for all Nords...yet another contradiction.

I apologize if I made it seem like I intended to say Stormcloaks speak for all Nords. I was stating the Stormcloaks as an example of manipulated individuals.

The selected Falmer? Who selected them exactly? Their hierarchy? government? Even though you claim the buck stops with mere foot soldiers carrying out orders.

Typo. Meant Select Falmer. As in, the selected group of Falmer that attacked Sarthaal.

When he gives the orders to hunt down and kill he's just as responsible?

Yes. If I told a hit man to kill another person, I'm just as responsible as the hit man if not more so. This applies to war as well. When you command to kill and take another life, you are responsible for their death.

So the same applies to the Snow Elves who ordered the army to attack Sarthal then? By your way of thinking, other Snow Elves other than just the ones ordered to attack Sarthal must then be held accountable.

incorrect. It would be the same logic if it was the Snow elves that attacked Sarthaal. However, the Snow elves that disagreed with the war (its unrealistic to think all snow elves wanted war.) were not responsible. It's actually your own logic you're confusing here. Going back to my hit man point, its like saying since I hired the hit man, my entire family should be murdered as compensation. Not the same thing. You're going beyond eye for an eye.

With that said they are also rightly subjected to Ysgramor's fury. Also, from what I've studied the Snow Elves never at any stage surrendered to the Atmorans and therefor war was still in effect. Correct me if I'm wrong but when two sides are at war the idea is they kill each other? Which is exactly what was happening.

Does running and taking refuge with another race not count as surrender? They sought alliances for protection, hid from the war, ran and gave themselves to the dwarves when it was clear they had lost after the snow prince was killed. So by your logic, unless there is a bright white flag, its fair game to kill those (both soldiers and innocents) who run in fear for their lives? This is outright barbaric, and further strengthens my questioning of Ysgramor.

It wasn't as if the Atmorans slaughtered innocent children hiding in wardrobes as the elves did at Sarthal.

You can't be serious with this last one. You think the snow elven children and women weren't slaughtered? When we say an entire race was put to excintion, men, women AND children were killed.

 

[Epic Keith]

When he gives the orders to hunt down and kill he's just as responsible? So the same applies to the Snow Elves who ordered the army to attack Sarthal then? By your way of thinking, other Snow Elves other than just the ones ordered to attack Sarthal must then be held accountable. With that said they are also rightly subjected to Ysgramor's fury. Also, from what I've studied the Snow Elves never at any stage surrendered to the Atmorans and therefor war was still in effect. Correct me if I'm wrong but when two sides are at war the idea is they kill each other? Which is exactly what was happening. It wasn't as if the Atmorans slaughtered innocent children hiding in wardrobes as the elves did at Sarthal.

Hitler ordered the killing of Jews and everyone blames him

 

[High King of Skyrim]

Correct. Comparing the two are you continue to do as if they are on equal footing is a gross misunderstanding of war and slaughter.



I'm not. I clearly stated my point. Ysgramor is responsible for the hatred he instilled and encouraged in his men, which was his lapse in judgement for his own hatred.


Yes.

Why? Because unlike his atmoran forefather he didnt believe in slaughtering an entire race to make peace?

Considering their afterlife involves honor upon death, why does this confuse you?

Elaborate.

Re-read my statement. I said the actions he took to the point of his death. were hatred for the elven people of Tamriel.

The Nords that allow their emotions to get the better of them over their reasoning, yes.
Note: I am NOT saying all Nords. I am saying the ones that allow their emotions to rule their judgement.

I apologize if I made it seem like I intended to say Stormcloaks speak for all Nords. I was stating the Stormcloaks as an example of manipulated individuals.



Typo. Meant Select Falmer. As in, the selected group of Falmer that attacked Sarthaal.


Yes. If I told a hit man to kill another person, I'm just as responsible as the hit man if not more so. This applies to war as well. When you command to kill and take another life, you are responsible for their death.

incorrect. It would be the same logic if it was the Snow elves that attacked Sarthaal. However, the Snow elves that disagreed with the war (its unrealistic to think all snow elves wanted war.) were not responsible. It's actually your own logic you're confusing here. Going back to my hit man point, its like saying since I hired the hit man, my entire family should be murdered as compensation. Not the same thing. You're going beyond eye for an eye.

Does running and taking refuge with another race not count as surrender? They sought alliances for protection, hid from the war, ran and gave themselves to the dwarves when it was clear they had lost after the snow prince was killed. So by your logic, unless there is a bright white flag, its fair game to kill those (both soldiers and innocents) who run in fear for their lives? This is outright barbaric, and further strengthens my questioning of Ysgramor.
It's you who should re-read your statement more clearly "Ysgramor's actions from the time of his death" is what you wrote. My logic isn't confused, I've simply rendered one of your arguments invalid and you reply with unrelated ranter I can scarcely decipher. Also, I'm not confused about the Nord afterlife. You called them a somewhat honourable people, when they are clearly amongst the most honourable races in all of Tamriel, nothing somewhat about it. You claim it would be the "same logic if it was the Snow Elves that attacked Sarthal"
Well guess what, it was! Proving my point, hardly incorrect then is it? Lastly, my last point is indeed questionable, although I'd like to see proof, if any exists, of a Nord killing a little baby. It is suggested because as we know the Nords did indeed hunt them down. How do we know that the children weren't used as labor? Either way though, it really doesn't matter, I'm just curious if there is a source of lore that states an example of this occurring, as I cannot find one.

You can't be serious with this last one. You think the snow elven children and women weren't slaughtered? When we say an entire race was put to excintion, men, women AND children were killed.

 

[Ivory]

It's you who should re-read your statement more clearly "Ysgramor's actions from the time of his death" is what you wrote. My logic isn't confused, I've simply rendered one of your arguments invalid and you reply with unrelated ranter I can scarcely decipher. Also, I'm not confused about the Nord afterlife. You called them a somewhat honourable people, when they are clearly amongst the most honourable races in all of Tamriel, nothing somewhat about it. You claim it would be the "same logic if it was the Snow Elves that attacked Sarthal"
Well guess what, it was! Proving my point, hardly incorrect then is it? Lastly, my last point is indeed questionable, although I'd like to see proof, if any exists, of a Nord killing a little baby. It is suggested because as we know the Nords did indeed hunt them down. How do we know that the children weren't used as labor? Either way though, it really doesn't matter, I'm just curious if there is a source of lore that states an example of this occurring, as I cannot find one.

My posts have been very clear. I apologize to have worded my statement wrong in the original post, but do not veer off topic. I cleared my mistake, which you have not responded to. If you have questions, I have no problem with answering them, but do not claim me a ranter when I respond on truth. My posts were crystal clear on questioning your points, of which you have ignored. You're grasping at straws that are not there. You don't need lore to know that Snow elven women and children were slaughtered. An entire race of Mer were cut down to near excintion. To try and free the atmoran people of guilt is going back on everything you said until now. You claim war, its all fair and game, but the second I mention that the Atmorans killed women and children. Which only takes common sense by the way. You claim me a ranter, and that I'm making things up? I'm sorry but I refuse to continue a discussion with you further from this point on. Your credibility is gone based on the fact that you are starting to get heated in this discussion. Please take a break for a few days and come back with a level head. Thank you.

 

[Epic Keith]

Still a better debate than Stormcloaks vs Imperials

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

When he gives the orders to hunt down and kill he's just as responsible? So the same applies to the Snow Elves who ordered the army to attack Sarthal then? By your way of thinking, other Snow Elves other than just the ones ordered to attack Sarthal must then be held accountable. With that said they are also rightly subjected to Ysgramor's fury. Also, from what I've studied the Snow Elves never at any stage surrendered to the Atmorans and therefor war was still in effect. Correct me if I'm wrong but when two sides are at war the idea is they kill each other? Which is exactly what was happening. It wasn't as if the Atmorans slaughtered innocent children hiding in wardrobes as the elves did at Sarthal.

No, the same does not apply to the entire race of Snow Elves. How you've managed to equate a single man with an entire race is beyond me. Yes, the Mer that gave the order to sack Saarthal are responsible for the Night of Tears. No, the entire race of Snow Elves were not. How you've managed to twist around my points into "The other Snow Elves must be held accountable by my logic" Is nothing more than your misinterpretation of my argument. Nothing on my part was stated that could be used as a justification for the genocide which took place during Ysgramor's return.

Ysgramor brought the companions over with the intention of killing all Elves he came across and taking Skyrim for man. He's just as responsible for the Elven body count as any warlord throughout history is for their respective death toll. If Ysgramor gives the order to raid an Elven village with the intention of killing each and every Elf living there, he's responsible for the bloodshed.

The official war ended when the Snow Prince was killed and the remaining scores of Mer troops disbanded and fleed. It was over at that point. Official surrender does not always mark the end of a war, if the Snow Elf forces are all but wiped out and nobody is left to fight back its a done deal. Surrender wasn't even an option to begin with, as any survivors left on Solstheim were executed.

My point here is that Ysgramor lead a campaign of genocide based on hatred and vengeance. When people say he purged Skyrim of the Snow Elves (between him and the Dwemer) just that was done. Individuals from all walks of life, men, women, children, they were all killed if they were Mer.

If you think genocide is a reasonable response to genocide, a psychologist would be someone better suited to talk to you.

 

[Lady Redpool the Unlifer]

Gonna go ahead and come back into this.
After reading everything that everyone has argued, debated, come up with and my own personal(Though admittedly lacking) knowledge on the subject, it seems to me that Ysgramor was, as has been said before, both.

We don't know enough about the events, especially from the side of the snow elves, to know whether or not the attack on Sarthaal was sanctioned by the snow prince, or just extremists being extreme. Ysgramor likely wouldn't have known either, he just survived and went back to the continent that he originally was trying to escape. He gathered up 500 warriors and went back to avenge what he would have viewed as an unprovoked masacre, and honestly, who wouldn't. An unprovoked attack isn't something to sit down and be diplomatic about, it's an act of war.

We also don't know if the snow elves attempted any kind of diplomacy or negotiations in the face of this war. Ysgramor likely wouldn't have accepted diplomacy at this point, but in either case, I don't believe the snow elves attempted such either. If it was sanctioned, then the snow elves would have believed they could defeat the human army that was rather small considering the scale of the war. If it was a few extremists that acted out, the snow elves would have seen this as a threat to their race and attempted to defend themselves. In either case, this was not a time when diplomacy was an option.

As for Ysgramor ceasing this war when the snow prince was defeated, this is the point where it could be considered genocide. I would like to point out now that I in no way believe genocide to be an answer or acceptable. In this time period however, would it not be fair to consider that the snow elves were still a threat? They would have still outnumbered the humans and scattered as they were, it would not have taken much for them to get reorganized. Ysgramor, coming from a culture of war, would have still perceived them as a threat and continued killing them. In hindsight we would view this as wrong but at the time it would have been a reasonable view.

On the topic of genocide, Ysgramor also DID NOT commit genocide, as he did not wipe them out. We don't even have a source to cite that the snow elves attempted to continue living above ground after the Snow Prince was slayed. Being so defeated they may have done what most do after losing a war: Retreated. We DO know that they retreated underground to seek refuge from the Dwemer and the atrocities from there are well known.

Elves found above ground were slaughtered, which at a certain point would have been simply wrong. Every society, both on Nirn, and in real life, have committed atrocities out of hatred. Definitely wrong, but considering the possibly justified(depending on your personal view of the events that we don't have enough information on) hatred that this man would have felt towards them, I don't believe it's enough to condemn him as only a murderous savage and not a hero.

As for him creating the hatred that Nords feel for elves today, he is not responsible. For one or two, MAYBE three generations after him, an argument could be made that he caused that hatred. He did not cause that hatred in his own lifetime, the Atmorans had a ready reminder to cause that hatred without him. As for the generations long after his death, it is the individuals who are responsible for this hate, not the man. If the individuals are too ignorant to give up this hate for elves, caused by atrocities long since avenged and then a some, that's their hatred, not his.

Ysgramor was a hero for what he did after Sarthaal, and for what he did for mankind. He was a murderous savage in his single minded hatred for the snow elves. He is not one or the other, the events that make him one does not mean he wasn't the other.
Sorry for the wall of text, I had a bit of catching up to do.

One last side note, while I personally am not against the Thalmor, any thalmor supporters should leave their elven superiority at the door and argue with LORE, not a we are better than thou ideology. Same goes for stormcloak/nord extremists.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Been doing some digging and there is no direct mention to complete genocide, nor the slaughter of innocent Snow Elves. There is however mention to battles between Snow Elf warriors and the Atmoran warriors.

4th of Evening Star
I used to dream of fighting in battles like my Father. He had begun teaching me to fight the moment I was able to pick up a blade. Mother had argued that I was too young, but he paid her no mind. I can still remember the elation I felt the first time I bested Father in a match and the look of pride on his face. If it were up to him I know he would have allowed me to join him in battle. With me at his side he may have fared better. Now with Father and so many others slain, the Old Ones claim we are left with too few warriors to continue the fight. I was not the only Young One to speak out in protest, but our small voices went unheard. It has been decided that we must flee to seek help and protection.

8th of Evening Star
News has reached us that the great Snow Prince has fallen in battle. The urgency to go into hiding has left many of us scattered and those of us still together unsure of which direction to turn. In the long hours of night we keep huddled together always fearing the worst until the first light of the blessed sun. May Auri-El guide our footsteps.

13th of Evening Star
In the night I overheard the Old Ones whispering secrets of the underground and the Dwemer who dwell there. I thought back on stories Father once told me of these dwarves, heroic tales of honor and glory. The Old Ones must know of these stories for it has been decided that we will change course upon first light. I feel hopeful that the Dwemer will help us to avenge our fallen and reclaim our land.

The Atmoran's goal was to drive the Elves out of Skyrim. The Nords fought and found honor in combat, there is no honor in the slaughter of innocent children and elderly. Therefor I find it hard to believe they would kill all they came across, the vast numbers suggest they were driven into hiding, not extinction.

The Nords also respected and honored the Snow Prince in death, such honor fitting of even a Nordic King.

It is common practice to burn the corpses of our fallen foes. This is as much a necessity as it is custom, for death brings with it disease and dread. Our chieftains wished to cleanse Solstheim of the Elven horde, in death as well as life. It was decided, however, that such was not to be the fate of the Snow Prince. One so mighty in war yet so loved by his kin deserved better. Even in death, even if an enemy of our people.
And so we brought the body of the Snow Prince, wrapped in fine silks, to a freshly dug barrow. The gleaming armor and spear were presented on a pedestal of honor, and the tomb was arrayed with treasures worthy of royalty. All of the mighty chieftains agreed with this course, that the Elf should be so honored. His body would be preserved in the barrow for as long as the earth chose, but would not be offered the protection of our Stalhrim, which was reserved for Nord dead alone.
So ends this account of the Battle of the Moesring, and the fall of the magnificent Elven Snow Prince. May our gods honor him in death, and may we never meet his kind again in life.

If Ysgramor is a murderous savage for fighting and defeating enemy soldiers, then so to is Kodlak, all of the Companions, the Imperial Legions, the Stormcloaks, anyone who kills an enemy who is armed.

We're all a Murderous Savage.

 

[High King of Skyrim]

Been doing some digging and there is no direct mention to complete genocide, nor the slaughter of innocent Snow Elves. There is however mention to battles between Snow Elf warriors and the Atmoran warriors.

4th of Evening Star
I used to dream of fighting in battles like my Father. He had begun teaching me to fight the moment I was able to pick up a blade. Mother had argued that I was too young, but he paid her no mind. I can still remember the elation I felt the first time I bested Father in a match and the look of pride on his face. If it were up to him I know he would have allowed me to join him in battle. With me at his side he may have fared better. Now with Father and so many others slain, the Old Ones claim we are left with too few warriors to continue the fight. I was not the only Young One to speak out in protest, but our small voices went unheard. It has been decided that we must flee to seek help and protection.

8th of Evening Star
News has reached us that the great Snow Prince has fallen in battle. The urgency to go into hiding has left many of us scattered and those of us still together unsure of which direction to turn. In the long hours of night we keep huddled together always fearing the worst until the first light of the blessed sun. May Auri-El guide our footsteps.

13th of Evening Star
In the night I overheard the Old Ones whispering secrets of the underground and the Dwemer who dwell there. I thought back on stories Father once told me of these dwarves, heroic tales of honor and glory. The Old Ones must know of these stories for it has been decided that we will change course upon first light. I feel hopeful that the Dwemer will help us to avenge our fallen and reclaim our land.

The Atmoran's goal was to drive the Elves out of Skyrim. The Nords fought and found honor in combat, there is no honor in the slaughter of innocent children and elderly. Therefor I find it hard to believe they would kill all they came across, the vast numbers suggest they were driven into hiding, not extinction.

The Nords also respected and honored the Snow Prince in death, such honor fitting of even a Nordic King.

It is common practice to burn the corpses of our fallen foes. This is as much a necessity as it is custom, for death brings with it disease and dread. Our chieftains wished to cleanse Solstheim of the Elven horde, in death as well as life. It was decided, however, that such was not to be the fate of the Snow Prince. One so mighty in war yet so loved by his kin deserved better. Even in death, even if an enemy of our people.
And so we brought the body of the Snow Prince, wrapped in fine silks, to a freshly dug barrow. The gleaming armor and spear were presented on a pedestal of honor, and the tomb was arrayed with treasures worthy of royalty. All of the mighty chieftains agreed with this course, that the Elf should be so honored. His body would be preserved in the barrow for as long as the earth chose, but would not be offered the protection of our Stalhrim, which was reserved for Nord dead alone.
So ends this account of the Battle of the Moesring, and the fall of the magnificent Elven Snow Prince. May our gods honor him in death, and may we never meet his kind again in life.

If Ysgramor is a murderous savage for fighting and defeating enemy soldiers, then so to is Kodlak, all of the Companions, the Imperial Legions, the Stormcloaks, anyone who kills an enemy who is armed.

We're all a Murderous Savage.

I agree and thank-you for taking the time to look into the genocide issue. I too, cannot see the Nords slaughtering innocent women and children as is suggested by some.

 

[Ivory]

Been doing some digging and there is no direct mention to complete genocide, nor the slaughter of innocent Snow Elves. There is however mention to battles between Snow Elf warriors and the Atmoran warriors.

[cut lore because I'm on a phone and I can hardly type much atm]

The Atmoran's goal was to drive the Elves out of Skyrim. The Nords fought and found honor in combat, there is no honor in the slaughter of innocent children and elderly. Therefor I find it hard to believe they would kill all they came across, the vast numbers suggest they were driven into hiding and not extinction.

Here you go my friend. I'm glad someone as influenced me to recall the ancient falmer texts.

The Snow Elves and Nords fought for centuries, from the Late Merethic Era to the early First Era, but the Snow Elves were steadily pushed back by waves of Atmoran reinforcements.[5][11] The devastating loss of the Snow Elf leader, the Snow Prince, ended the Snow Elves' last, best hope.[9][12][13] They had long maintained an uneasy alliance with the Dwemer, whose underground cities remained safe from the Nordic incursion on the surface. And so, faced with extinction, they called upon their kin for help. The Dwemer agreed to provide them a haven, but only at the price of their sight. The Snow Elves who agreed, the Betrayed, were forced to consume only toxic fungi which rendered them blind.[7] During the reign of the Nordic High King Harald (1E 143-221), the last of the Snow Elves (at least, to the Nord's knowledge) were driven from the province's traditional borders.[5]

Dairy of Faire Argwen.


Third Marking, Tenth Kulniir

It feels like years since we were forced into hiding. I dare not write where we stay for fear of endangering the good people of this house should this diary be discovered. We have been shown a kindness by this family once known to the Snow Prince. Even in death his great influence has ensured our safety. We were separated from many of our kin along the road when it became increasingly difficult to travel discreetly in our numbers. We were forced to go our separate ways and travel only at night. I have heard no news of where the others may have gone and fear I never shall. Our lives are forever changed.

Seventh Marking, Tenth Kulniir

In the night I find it difficult not to focus on times past. There are moments in my rest when I still hear the laughter of Young Ones at play in the valley. Other times I see the pale flicker of happy moments which were once so common in the land of the Snow Elves. I try not to dwell on these memories too long. Often our surroundings make it impossible to dwell on any happiness. We have been locked together in such close quarters for so long we grow tired of each other's company. Even the strongest of us have faltered with nothing to do but think on what is lost. I wake each day to forlorn faces and am reminded of where we are and all we have left behind. We are all yearning for a day when we can emerge from hiding and walk freely in the light once more. But I fear we are losing all hope that such a day will ever come.

Tenth Marking, Tenth Kulniir


I tire of the tears of women and children. My own have run dry. The men have begun to look upon us as if we are all weak yet we have survived the same trials as they. I cannot bring myself to think on the numbers we lost in battle. Yet I cannot force the images of my own losses from my mind. And now in a time when our people should be banding together it feels we are drifting apart. The Nords have truly won. Our once great pride and unity are shattered. If we lose hope now we will never survive. Today many, myself included, have tried to speak out in voices of reason. There can be no hope without talk of our future. We can make no difference if our spirits remain broken.

Eighteenth Marking, Tenth Kulniir

We know that we can never again be the Snow Elves and live freely in this world. We will forever be in hiding in one form or another. But there is no reason we cannot live life with the sun and the wind against our skin. There are those here who are friends to us and plan to help us once the threat has ended. We know now to survive we must be born anew. Outside, we will appear as though we belong here. Inside, we will carry our truth and our scars.

 

[High King of Skyrim]

"Go forth," he roared. "Into the belly of this new land. Drive the wretched from their palaces of idleness. Oblige them to squalor and toil, that they would see their betrayals as the all-sin against our kind. Give no quarter. Show no kindness. For they would not give nor show you the same."
from Songs Of the Return.
Ysgramor had been betrayed by the Snow Elves before and couldn't be expected to trust that they would cease their attacks against the Atmoran refugees. So his next coarse of action was logical, albeit severe and that is where I believe the 'get them before they get us mentality' was born. Was it taken too far, perhaps but he is still a hero for paving the way for all mankind to live without threat of annihilation from a jealous and untrustworthy race of elves.

 

[Majir-Dar]

There were countless ways to deal with the Night of Tears and he took the most idiotic, murderous path. He started the extinction of the Snow Elves. You shouldn't kill off an entire race just for razing a city.

 

[tx12001]

what do you expect he was a nord, they are obbessed with fighting and death and half of their women act like men, strange enough it was those same nords that showed great respect to the snow prince by giving him a proper funeral after he was impaled by a sword thrown by a little girl

 

[tx12001]

if you were an elven dragonborn and you whent to sovngarde to kill aldun, the first thing I would do is punch ysgramor in the face for what he did to countless thousands of elves wo did not diservedeath and if he would not be able to do anything because if he harmed me then I would let alduin absorb his soul