Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Anouck]

True, I just do not like Politics all that much, including morons being in charge, of either side.

Oh well, sadly morons will always be in charge. Such is human nature. We live in 'packs' with clear hierarchies. Even without a government someone would try to get power. There will always be people trying to be the dominant one.

Yeah, but Monarchs should not rely on their court for every decision, like Elisif who changes her mind as soon as her steward and court wizard say something, either.

True, but if she doesn't people say she is stubborn. She is young and unexperienced and therefor tends to follow advice a lot. If she wouldn't do that, they would criticize her too by saying she should listen to people who know what they're saying..

 

[Jeremius]

Elisef is a unique case because how much is her actually being reasonable and listening to her advisers though.

Listening, I can understand. but just agreeing with them when they say that they were sure it was nothing, when she already made a decision? No sense there.

Anouck: This is about the wolf queen thing. I doubt that Stentor actually did any scrying.

 

[Anouck]

Elisef is a unique case because how much is her actually being reasonable and listening to her advisers though.

Listening, I can understand. but just agreeing with them when they say that they were sure it was nothing, when she already made a decision? No sense there.

True, but she is young. She doesn't know much about leading a province - yet that burden rests upon her shoulders. If she wouldn't do it, what would the Stormcloaks say? Would they really say 'Good job, Elisif!' or would they say: 'That arrogant little girl has no experience at all, and still she refuses to take advice from her advisers who know what they are talking about!'. I think people would complain whatever she does.
If she can't make decisions and will stay this way, she won't be suitable for leading a province. But maybe she is just young and learning. She takes advice from people who are probably wiser than her. I don't see why that is so wrong.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Sense being that these people have been helping leaders for a lot longer than Elisef has even been alive. So if they peasants have superstitious complaints like that all the time, why not? Also she was rearing to send like an entire regiment of guardsmen. So she simply overreacted to the problem and they asked for a tempered approach which Falk sends one adventurer.

Damn server errors. I swear... cant post with alerts or something.

 

[Jeremius]

Elisef is a unique case because how much is her actually being reasonable and listening to her advisers though.

Listening, I can understand. but just agreeing with them when they say that they were sure it was nothing, when she already made a decision? No sense there.

True, but she is young. She doesn't know much about leading a province - yet that burden rests upon her shoulders. If she wouldn't do it, what would the Stormcloaks say? Would they really say 'Good job, Elisif!' or would they say: 'That arrogant little girl has no experience at all, and still she refuses to take advice from her advisers who know what they are talking about!'. I think people would complain whatever she does.
If she can't make decisions and will stay this way, she won't be suitable for leading a province. But maybe she is just young and learning. She takes advice from people who are probably wiser than her. I don't see why that is so wrong.

Stentor's scrying brought nothing up. but, when you check the cave out, you see a ritual going on to bring back the wolf queen. What does that say about Stentor's scrying skills?

 

[Anouck]

Listening, I can understand. but just agreeing with them when they say that they were sure it was nothing, when she already made a decision? No sense there.

True, but she is young. She doesn't know much about leading a province - yet that burden rests upon her shoulders. If she wouldn't do it, what would the Stormcloaks say? Would they really say 'Good job, Elisif!' or would they say: 'That arrogant little girl has no experience at all, and still she refuses to take advice from her advisers who know what they are talking about!'. I think people would complain whatever she does.
If she can't make decisions and will stay this way, she won't be suitable for leading a province. But maybe she is just young and learning. She takes advice from people who are probably wiser than her. I don't see why that is so wrong.

Stentor's scrying brought nothing up. but, when you check the cave out, you see a ritual going on to bring back the wolf queen. What does that say about Stentor's scrying skills?

People make mistakes. Some things are very unlikely - yet they happen. With the knowledge and intel he had, he drew a pretty decent conclusion.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Sybille: "Your eminence, my scrying has suggested nothing in the area. Dragon Bridge is under imperial control. This is likely superstitious nonsense."

As I understand it "Suggest" who is to say that the magical barrier you see surrounding the people trying to summon Potema is in fact hiding the mystic energies that they are gathering. I mean magic in something like this is not an exact science Still she wanted to send an entire legion. You can doubt her all you want but it still doesn't change a thing. Excersizing caution about resources is never a bad thing.

 

[Jeremius]

People make mistakes. Some things are very unlikely - yet they happen. With the knowledge and intel he had, he drew a pretty decent conclusion.

Falk, maybe. But Stentor? I can't really trust that vampire on matters of grave importance.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Falk, maybe. But Stentor? I can't really trust that vampire on matters of grave importance.

Like I mentioned I think they blocked her scry. Though I feel you can trust her enough. you dont here about people disappearing in the night except the criminals of the town right?

 

[Anouck]

People make mistakes. Some things are very unlikely - yet they happen. With the knowledge and intel he had, he drew a pretty decent conclusion.

Falk, maybe. But Stentor? I can't really trust that vampire on matters of grave importance.

Whether he made a bad mistake or not - that was not the point of discussion. The convo was about Elisif following so much advice. I am going to quote Skies:"these people have been helping leaders for a lot longer than Elisef has even been alive. So if they peasants have superstitious complaints like that all the time, why not?"

 

[Jeremius]

People make mistakes. Some things are very unlikely - yet they happen. With the knowledge and intel he had, he drew a pretty decent conclusion.

Falk, maybe. But Stentor? I can't really trust that vampire on matters of grave importance.

Whether he made a bad mistake or not - that was not the point of discussion. The convo was about Elisif following so much advice. I am going to quote Skies:"these people have been helping leaders for a lot longer than Elisef has even been alive. So if they peasants have superstitious complaints like that all the time, why not?"

Because we do not have lore evidence that they do have those complaints all the time. As far as I know stationing a few guards or legion soldiers at the cave to ensure that nothing comes out would have been a far better solution than "we will station more guards at the town and have a mercenary check out the cave and die if the 'superstitious complaint' is true."

 

[DrunkenMage]

Yeah, but Monarchs should not rely on their court for every decision, like Elisif who changes her mind as soon as her steward and court wizard say something, either.

Sending three thousand men of an entire Legion to secure a cave, because of superstition and lights? Elisif would of changed her mind, because when she gives it a second thought, she was taking a drastic approach. Based on no evidence.

A monarch is allowed to change their minds, make decisions. Elisif's first reaction was due to her love and care of her people. Her second reaction was after a quick counsel.

Ulfric relies on his steward for his Hold. Balgruuf relies on his for the Hold. Jarls rely on their courts. The Emperor has to rely on the Elder Council for every decision just about.

 

[DrunkenMage]

True, but she is young. She doesn't know much about leading a province - yet that burden rests upon her shoulders.

Not much to it in regards to Skyrim. The Holds are all largely independent, Skyrim runs itself. It is why I keep wondering why the Stormcloaks bring up the fact she has no experience in being High Queen as a reason to be against her.

Last time I checked, Ulfric has never been a High King. He has no experience.

 

[Jeremius]

Yeah, but Monarchs should not rely on their court for every decision, like Elisif who changes her mind as soon as her steward and court wizard say something, either.

Sending three thousand men of an entire Legion to secure a cave, because of superstition and lights? Elisif would of changed her mind, because when she gives it a second thought, she was taking a drastic approach. Based on no evidence.

A monarch is allowed to change their minds, make decisions. Elisif's first reaction was due to her love and care of her people. Her second reaction was after a quick counsel.

Ulfric relies on his steward for his Hold. Balgruuf relies on his for the Hold. Jarls rely on their courts. The Emperor has to rely on the Elder Council for every decision just about.

It is not that she does not, though. When I look at that scene, it makes it look like THEY are running the hold, not her. While I agree sending an entire legion is bad, sending someone to look into the cave, with no knowledge of what could be there, is just as bad. Best decision would have been to send a few soldiers or guards to watch the cave conly.

And Balgruuf? HE bloody goes against his steward when you mention dragon at Helgen. Listening and making rational choices is good, but not outright agreeing with them just because the wizard said her scrying caught nothing.

 

[Lord of Blood]

There were good points to my last post. Just a few things I would like to counter. Having independence but uniting against a common threat is not contradictory. The United States and Israel are allies and would support one another in a war but both countries would maintain their independence and their own government. Secondly, regardless of whether people like each other or not if there is a threat that is big enough that threatens their existence they will put their differences aside. If the Dominion were to conquer Skyrim then all the other provinces would be in even more danger. So regardless of whether Skyrim is independent or not it is in the best interest of the other nations of Tamriel to stand with them. Now I know there is the belief that an independent Skyrim being able to lead Tamriel is viewed as pipe dream. We can agree to disagree on that one. Who's to say that Skyrim does not have the resources to support themselves? No matter what side is victorious they will turn their attention towards regaining their strength and will use whatever resources they have available in achieving that goal. There are two things that bind the Nords together: their hatred of the Aldmeri Dominion and their traditions. They have a common goal at this point so I think there will be no infighting. Plus Galmar in charge of keeping the Jarls in line and you know from playing the game he don't take no crap. Also the Thalmor want neither side to win. Because if any side were to win that would hinder their plans and give time for one side to rebuild their strength. I believe Skyrim can stand on it's own. And I believe Empire or no Empire, the nations of Tamriel are not stupid enough to try and take on the night of the Aldmeri Dominion by themselves. Also yes the Redguard should not forget all who fought and have their lives for all of the Empire. However in their mind signing that treaty was a spit in the face of those sacrifices. They took a stand and they fought to keep their land. The Dominion had no choice but to withdraw. This was without help and supplies from the Legion. True the Great War was able to weaken the Domnion enough that Hammerfell was able to hold it's own but just think if all of the Empire stood by their side. The Dominion was weak and exhausted just like the Empire was, probably more than they would care to admit. Also bear in my mind, not all Stormcloaks are racist xenophobes. Don't let some bad apples spoil the whole bunch. Just like that one Imperial Captain shouldn't define the entire Empire. There are good men and women on both sides who both fight for what they believe in with a passion and each have their own motivation for doing so. There is honor in fighting for what you believe in. The only dishonor is sitting back. A man who will not stand for something will fall for anything. Whether you Imperial or Stormcloak you still hate the Thalmor. They are the common enemy. No matter who wins all effort needs to be placed towards building up our strength and stopping these snobby, egotistical and self centered elves from conquering the world. Yes Ulfric is being used. He doesn't know that but does that make the cause he is fighting for less just. The Dominion wants no side to win. They want the war to continue because an outright victory from either side is not in their best interests. Most people count Skyrim out but the Nords are a tough and stubborn people full of pride and honor who will fight to the last breath to preserve their way of life regardless if the odds are stacked against them or if it's a pipe dream. Look how far the Stormcloaks have gotten with so little? Like Ulfric tells Tullius at the end of the Battle for Solitude: "It's a little more than a rebellion don't you think?" I believe Skyrim is more than capable of surviving as an independent nation. I wouldn't bet against a Nord. Like Galmar said they some tough son a bitches. Either way the Dominion is in for a fight. Skyrim will not go down without a fight. The Dominion may have defeated the Empire but it has not defeated Skyrim. It may be a pipe dream. But hey the Stormcloaks have already come far with so little, don't underestimate them. It would be a big mistake.


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[DrunkenMage]

It is not that she does not, though. When I look at that scene, it makes it look like THEY are running the hold, not her. While I agree sending an entire legion is bad, sending someone to look into the cave, with no knowledge of what could be there, is just as bad. Best decision would have been to send a few soldiers or guards to watch the cave conly.

'They' do run the Hold. That is the job of the Court. The Jarl makes the final decision, but the Stewards run the operations of a Hold. Ulfric is the same, leaving the duties of the Hold in the care of his steward.

Best to send soldiers to watch a cave? With a war raging, you're going to send soldiers to watch a cave? She made the right call, assigning guards to the village. It keeps the village secure, and it also doesn't weaken the Holds defenses with Dragon's bridge being an important war location.

They send the player, because they merely suspect a few bandits or some creatures. Not an entire Necromancer coven.

And Balgruuf? HE bloody goes against his steward when you mention dragon at Helgen. Listening and making rational choices is good, but not outright agreeing with them just because the wizard said her scrying caught nothing.

There is a difference between dragons and things about the Hold. Court Wizards are there to counsel the Jarl with things to do with magic. What is the point of having a Court Wizard if you're not going to use them?

The Court wizard detected nothing strange about the cave. Just because you don't trust her, doesn't mean the Jarl shouldn't.

Secondly, regardless of whether people like each other or not if there is a threat that is big enough that threatens their existence they will put their differences aside.

You'd think that wouldn't you. Except Skyrim managed to find the time to invade and attack House Redoran of Morrowind. During the Oblivion Crisis, no less. While all of Tamriel faced daedric invasion, threatening everyone's lives. Skyrim attacked their neighbor...

If the Dominion were to conquer Skyrim then all the other provinces would be in even more danger.

Skyrim is worthless. Cyrodiil is what the Thalmor want at the moment. They want the White-Gold Tower, they wish to establish a new merethic era, a Tamriel under Elven rule. They don't need to conquer Skyrim, yet. If they take Cyrodiil, nothing will stop them. The next Great War will most likely happen soon after the Civil War ends, with the death of Titus Mede II, the perfect time to strike is now for the Thalmor.

So regardless of whether Skyrim is independent or not it is in the best interest of the other nations of Tamriel to stand with them.

It's been the best interest of nations of Tamriel to defend themselves from Skyrim's short sightedness. From their warlike delusions. This isn't the first time Skyrim has rebelled against the Empire, won't be the last. Ulfric can unite the Holds, at least for awhile. The Nords will never agree, the Holds will just end up like they were before the Third Empire. Infighting.

Now I know there is the belief that an independent Skyrim being able to lead Tamriel is viewed as pipe dream. We can agree to disagree on that one. Who's to say that Skyrim does not have the resources to support themselves?

Skyrim has depended on the Empire for food and resources for over an era. Skyrim once was able to support itself, back when the Ysgramor Dynasty ruled as High Kings. Back when they had holdings in Morrowind, Cyrodiil, High Rock etc.

Farms struggle in Skyrim, you hear this from farmers. Only Rorikstead does well, but they can't feed an entire nation. Cyrodiil's and High Rock's farmlands were important.

No matter what side is victorious they will turn their attention towards regaining their strength and will use whatever resources they have available in achieving that goal. There are two things that bind the Nords together: their hatred of the Aldmeri Dominion and their traditions. They have a common goal at this point so I think there will be no infighting.

They've had a common goal since the days of the Five Hundred Companions. Never stopped infighting.

Plus Galmar in charge of keeping the Jarls in line and you know from playing the game he don't take no crap.

Galmar and Ulfric are aging. They will spend their entire lives rebuilding Skyrim. After their deaths, you're left with a province full of the traditions that destroyed the First Empire of the Nords. Challenge Jarls and Kings for their right to rule? Bandit Chiefs will take a field day with that.

Yes Ulfric is being used. He doesn't know that but does that make the cause he is fighting for less just.

What is his cause? Talos or the Throne of Skyrim. I see very little mention of Talos in the Stormcloak quest line, except black mailing another worshiper.

I wouldn't bet against a Nord. Like Galmar said they some tough son a bitches. Either way the Dominion is in for a fight. Skyrim will not go down without a fight. The Dominion may have defeated the Empire but it has not defeated Skyrim.

The Dominion has already defeated Skyrim. It has plunged into chaos and the Snow Tower has been deactivated. Skyrim's Nords will be rebuilding for a long time. Dragons and Civil war has taken Skyrim out of the picture. With the Snow Tower already gone, what is the point in attacking Skyrim. The Nords plan to leave the safety of their lands to invade the Dominion under Ulfric. If they're going by sea, they're dead. Going by land? Well magic fearing Nords stand no hope against the Aldmeri. Even Ysgramor's 500 had magic users and the best enchantments of the time on their weapons and armor.

But hey the Stormcloaks have already come far with so little, don't underestimate them. It would be a big mistake.

Indirect Thalmor aid. That is why they have come so far with so little, the rebellion would of been ended a long time ago if they weren't being aided by the Thalmor.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

#Get owned. lol sorry but that is pretty much how this thread has gone. With little to no evidence countered with logic and lore. Though there is one very critical piece of lore that I like to keep quite cause I like to surprise random other Imperial supporters with

 

[DrunkenMage]

Though there is one very critical piece of lore that I like to keep quite cause I like to surprise random other Imperial supporters with

Oh really?

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Oh really?

Well yes, but needless to say I like not using it since there is no reason to boon the Stormies. Plus they would fail to see the importance or the proper argument.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Oh really?

Well yes, but needless to say I like not using it since there is no reason to boon the Stormies. Plus they would fail to see the importance or the proper argument.

True, but I enjoy seeing the best anti Empire arguments there are. I visit bethsoft and read many of theirs, mainly because I enjoy coming up with counter arguments.