Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

I agree debating here is like arguing in circles At least we can agree with something, right?

Arguing with you makes me feel as though you have sever ADD.

 

[azali100]

So what you're trying to tell me is that Ulfric is responsible for the Thalmor being there because he's fighting to restore free worship of Talos, eh? Since when is it the Thalmor responsibility to enforce Imperial law? Oh right! The Empire granted them permission to root out Talos worshipers. Yeah Ulfric is a very bad and evil man for wanting to secede from the Empire and fighting to restore the rights of his people to openly worship Talos.

Read my signature quotes for the rest

Well it depends on how you look at it. It's my understanding based on in game dialogue that the Thalmor, though they had the power to enforce the ban, did not do so until Ulfric's rebellion brought the whole thing to their attention. In other words, there no Justicars patrolling the street until after Ulfric's war began.

 

[Gunnbjorn]

A new title has been bestowed on you:

You will now be known as "Arillious, Troll Slayer" to those you meet in your travels.

I want to thank my Mom, my friends and....

 

[Moris]

Arguing with you makes me feel as though you have sever ADD.

Arrgggjh. Knock it off. Both of you are both much smarter than that. I've read your posts. They are meaningful, engaging, and intelligent.... Except when you start calling each other names.

Save that for the trolls, who don't deserve rational argument.

Okay. I realize that those who have been reading this thread from the beginning have seen the same arguments presented time and time again, and if you are not persuaded by them, perhaps you will never be persuaded by them. It gets old, seeing the same s--- over and over. I get that. Really.

However, sometimes a well articulated argument that was previously voiced by the mouth of a fool can still reach the mind of the curious. You may grow weary, but your points are important to those who are yet new (or newer) to the forums. Leave the blatant insults to the trolls.

Please?

 

[Gunnbjorn]

Save that for the trolls, who don't deserve rational argument.

Okay. I realize that those who have been reading this thread from the beginning have seen the same arguments presented time and time again, and if you are not persuaded by them, perhaps you will never be persuaded by them. It gets old, seeing the same s--- over and over. I get that. Really.

However, sometimes a well articulated argument that was previously voiced by the mouth of a fool can still reach the mind of the curious. You may grow weary, but your points are important to those who are yet new (or newer) to the forums. Leave the blatant insults to the trolls.

Please?

I think at this point in the thread just about every known aspect of the different motives of the Legion and Stormcloaks have been mentioned, I think one could say Bethesda did an excellent job drawing a complete line of symmetry between the two, they didn't seem to have given any advantage or disadvantage to either sides. One must open up their Role Playing side to decide which they want to fight for, I think all this thread could be now is Troll Slaying grounds and/or listening to people with creative ideas and possibilities on Ulfric or the Legion that might not be entirely true, but still something one could believe in to make it a deciding factor in the decision making of the topic.

 

[Raijin]

Arguing with you makes me feel as though you have sever ADD.

I think you meant to say severe ADD

Instead of thinking of insults I thought I personally create this gif for you

Have an Eagle shaking his ass at you.

 

[Dagmar]

So what you're trying to tell me is that Ulfric is responsible for the Thalmor being there because he's fighting to restore free worship of Talos, eh?

No. People keep telling you what the game tells you, and your only (ineffective) response is to pretend that people are telling you something other than what you've been told. We should make you a super hero costume with a Straw Man icon as your chest emblem. Maybe some Red Herring batarangs on a utility belt to complement the look.

The Thalmor Justiciars are in the Empire to monitor and enforce compliance but the game irrefutably presents you with the notion that their zeal and effectiveness in doing so was exponentially less intense before the Stormcloak rebellion. Prior to Ulfric's agitations one could openly, loudly and conspicuously praise Talos as a god in song in a public tavern for an entire week before the Justiciars took notice of it in the very city in which they're stationed. After Ulfric's agitations they begin to invade the private homes and detain, incarcerate and interrogate those suspected of worshipping Talos in secret. These actions are described and attributed as a reaction to Ulfric's Stormcloak Rebellion by NPC dialogue. This tragic state of affairs is a direct reaction by the Thalmor to what Ulfric is doing. That it's observable and supported by the game content makes it matter of indisputable fact even if you wish to remain deliberately obtuse to it.

 

[Ozan]

Evil is a matter of circumstance. Ozan does not necessarily consider the Stormcloak as good... but to Ozan, the Legion is mostly evil as is the Empire which wields it.

Ozan wishes no offense as he knows some view him as good and others as evil. The perception and circumstance of certain situations. All are inherently born good but soon develop into whomever they must be, through the mentioned perception and circumstance. But, always in one's own eyes are they good with the exception of some who openly admit to their horrid deed. In the eyes of the others, it wanes and weakens.

This is not a view solely for individuals but for groups, factions, and even nations. The Empire is perceived as good by they who are comfortable. However... what nation would allow a loss of territory without struggle. The Dominion claimed the forests of Valenwood... unopposed by the Empire. Elsweyr was fooled, the Colovian not even trying to deny it.. Hammerfell was sold to the Aldmeri, yet they struggle without Colovian aid. Orsinium was disolved for convenience. The Argonian conquered Morrowind, THE FILTHY ARGONIAN, because the Empire stops caring. Deny they weaken all one desires, but not even the Colovian cares for the Colovian.

Why does the Colovian care about Skyrim? They gave away everything else, what makes Skyrim special?

Nothing. It is only because the locals wish to leave on their own terms.

Tell Khajiit who was raised in the Aldmeri Dominion that one's own nation is evil for wanting to absolutely govern themselves. Many Elf and Khajiit think the Aldmeri are good... What of the Stormcloak and Colovian? They view the Elf type as evil... But the Colovian allowed this to happen.

Who is more delusional? Colovian or Aldmeri?

((Sorry for repost, but I don't want to be overshadowed by a stray troll.))

 

[Moris]

I think at this point in the thread just about every known aspect of the different motives of the Legion and Stormcloaks have been mentioned, I think one could say Bethesda did an excellent job drawing a complete line of symmetry between the two, they didn't seem to have given any advantage or disadvantage to either sides. One must open up their Role Playing side to decide which they want to fight for, I think all this thread could be now is Troll Slaying grounds and/or listening to people with creative ideas and possibilities on Ulfric or the Legion that might not be entirely true, but still something one could believe in to make it a deciding factor in the decision making of the topic.

I mostly agree, except that I think that we are often persuaded as much by the way an idea is voiced as by the idea itself.

In this way, the argument goes on, as there are more way than one to say the same thing.

 

[Gunnbjorn]

In this way, the argument goes on, as there are more way than one to say the same thing.

This is very very true, but after awhile when people continue to say the same thing over and over again for 600 more pages, many, many trolls will begin to invade.

My case stands, this thread is Troll Slaying grounds, applications will be on my desk, join me in fighting the good fight.

 

[Rayven]

Let me know if there's still errant ratings. I did some pruning.

 

[Moris]

((Sorry for repost, but I don't want to be overshadowed by a stray troll.))

Ozan should perhaps repost, but not as a quote. I think your very beautiful and passionate post was lost in the interim.

You ask, "what nation would allow a loss of territory without struggle" and I'd answer that there was a struggle, yet how much of one and whether enough of one remains to be seen.

It is of my opinion that all current and former provinces of the Empire are worth fighting for, spilling blood for, dying for... but my opinion may not be shared by those in the Empire who must consider matters of political expedience...

 

[Raijin]

The Thalmor Justiciars are in the Empire to monitor and enforce compliance but the game irrefutably presents you with the notion that their zeal and effectiveness in doing so was exponentially less intense before the Stormcloak rebellion. Prior to Ulfric's agitations one could openly, loudly and conspicuously praise Talos as a god in song in a public tavern for an entire week before the Justiciars took notice of it in the very city in which they're stationed. After Ulfric's agitations they begin to invade the private homes and detain, incarcerate and interrogate those suspected of worshipping Talos in secret. These actions are described and attributed as a reaction to Ulfric's Stormcloak Rebellion by NPC dialogue. This tragic state of affairs is a direct reaction by the Thalmor to what Ulfric is doing. That it's observable and supported by the game content makes it matter of indisputable fact even if you wish to remain deliberately obtuse to it.

Sounds like the Aldmeri Dominion co-owns the Empire After Mede II signed the treaty to end the war they essentially became the Thalmors bitch. Look how General Tullius brought the Thalmor in a peace treaty to temporary halt the civil war against the Empire and the Stormcloaks.

This is more of a reason why Skyrim should be an independent state. The people in Skyrim should be a allowed to freely and openly worship Talos without fearing that the Thalmor arresting, and imprisoning them base on their faith. The Emperor made it illegal. Ulfric is there to fight against it. I give this man credit for doing something about it rather then to complain and do nothing.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Arrgggjh. Knock it off. Both of you are both much smarter than that. I've read your posts. They are meaningful, engaging, and intelligent.... Except when you start calling each other names.

Save that for the trolls, who don't deserve rational argument.

Okay. I realize that those who have been reading this thread from the beginning have seen the same arguments presented time and time again, and if you are not persuaded by them, perhaps you will never be persuaded by them. It gets old, seeing the same s--- over and over. I get that. Really.

However, sometimes a well articulated argument that was previously voiced by the mouth of a fool can still reach the mind of the curious. You may grow weary, but your points are important to those who are yet new (or newer) to the forums. Leave the blatant insults to the trolls.

Please?

I was joking, it wasn't meant to offend. I meant it as in his arguments are always all over the place, without hardly ever holding any relevence what he to what he is trying to argue. Much like someone with ADD.

 

[Moris]

I was joking, it wasn't meant to offend. I meant it as in his arguments are always all over the place, without hardly ever holding any relevence what he to what he is trying to argue. Much like someone with ADD.

Re-reading the last couple of pages, I have a better grasp of what you're saying. I shouldn't be so quick to lecture.

Of course, it could be that you're an orc -- or at least, your name sounds orcish to my ear. Sometimes, even the friendliest words have a undertone of menace coming from an orc. But no doubt this is my own latent human racism coming to the fore. I should strive to eliminate this weakness from my heart.

 

[Raijin]

Now now no harm is being done here, Moris Just because Grogmar Ghrobash and I have our own different set of an opinions regarding to fictional world of politics in Skyrim doesn't mean that I hate him I'm sure he doesn't hate me either. Either way threads like this one are quite fun.


May Talos guide us all and smash those who opposes mighty Talos

 

[feliciano182]

We should make you a super hero costume with a Straw Man icon as your chest emblem. Maybe some Red Herring batarangs on a utility belt to complement the look.

Is there a classic post topic in the forum ?

By Talos we need a classic post topic in the forum !

 

[MrDSL]

Wow this is a hot topic..

I personally havent done any civil war quest mainly because I didn't know which side I wanted to take. After playing through a lot of the game I am finding myself more and more wanting to support the Stormcloaks mainly because I believe I should worship whoever the hell I want.

Plus I've had a couple run ins with these Thalmor punks and they really rub me the wrong way and couldn't see myself fighting along side them in anyway..

 

[thatwudbryan]

How goes the Borg-ing?

 

[feliciano182]

Wow this is a hot topic..

I personally havent done any civil war quest mainly because I didn't know which side I wanted to take. After playing through a lot of the game I am finding myself more and more wanting to support the Stormcloaks mainly because I believe I should worship whoever the hell I want.

Plus I've had a couple run ins with these Thalmor punks and they really rub me the wrong way and couldn't see myself fighting along side them in anyway..

Whatever you do, finish the main quest first, and then start The Civil War.

And join The Legion please, Stormcloaks are dicks.