Grogmar Ghrobash
'Tis better to be alone, then of bad company.
I agree debating here is like arguing in circles At least we can agree with something, right?
Arguing with you makes me feel as though you have sever ADD.
I agree debating here is like arguing in circles At least we can agree with something, right?
So what you're trying to tell me is that Ulfric is responsible for the Thalmor being there because he's fighting to restore free worship of Talos, eh? Since when is it the Thalmor responsibility to enforce Imperial law? Oh right! The Empire granted them permission to root out Talos worshipers. Yeah Ulfric is a very bad and evil man for wanting to secede from the Empire and fighting to restore the rights of his people to openly worship Talos.
Read my signature quotes for the rest
Arguing with you makes me feel as though you have sever ADD.
Save that for the trolls, who don't deserve rational argument.
Okay. I realize that those who have been reading this thread from the beginning have seen the same arguments presented time and time again, and if you are not persuaded by them, perhaps you will never be persuaded by them. It gets old, seeing the same s--- over and over. I get that. Really.
However, sometimes a well articulated argument that was previously voiced by the mouth of a fool can still reach the mind of the curious. You may grow weary, but your points are important to those who are yet new (or newer) to the forums. Leave the blatant insults to the trolls.
Please?
Arguing with you makes me feel as though you have sever ADD.
No. People keep telling you what the game tells you, and your only (ineffective) response is to pretend that people are telling you something other than what you've been told. We should make you a super hero costume with a Straw Man icon as your chest emblem. Maybe some Red Herring batarangs on a utility belt to complement the look.So what you're trying to tell me is that Ulfric is responsible for the Thalmor being there because he's fighting to restore free worship of Talos, eh?
Evil is a matter of circumstance. Ozan does not necessarily consider the Stormcloak as good... but to Ozan, the Legion is mostly evil as is the Empire which wields it.
Ozan wishes no offense as he knows some view him as good and others as evil. The perception and circumstance of certain situations. All are inherently born good but soon develop into whomever they must be, through the mentioned perception and circumstance. But, always in one's own eyes are they good with the exception of some who openly admit to their horrid deed. In the eyes of the others, it wanes and weakens.
This is not a view solely for individuals but for groups, factions, and even nations. The Empire is perceived as good by they who are comfortable. However... what nation would allow a loss of territory without struggle. The Dominion claimed the forests of Valenwood... unopposed by the Empire. Elsweyr was fooled, the Colovian not even trying to deny it.. Hammerfell was sold to the Aldmeri, yet they struggle without Colovian aid. Orsinium was disolved for convenience. The Argonian conquered Morrowind, THE FILTHY ARGONIAN, because the Empire stops caring. Deny they weaken all one desires, but not even the Colovian cares for the Colovian.
Why does the Colovian care about Skyrim? They gave away everything else, what makes Skyrim special?
Nothing. It is only because the locals wish to leave on their own terms.
Tell Khajiit who was raised in the Aldmeri Dominion that one's own nation is evil for wanting to absolutely govern themselves. Many Elf and Khajiit think the Aldmeri are good... What of the Stormcloak and Colovian? They view the Elf type as evil... But the Colovian allowed this to happen.
Who is more delusional? Colovian or Aldmeri?
I think at this point in the thread just about every known aspect of the different motives of the Legion and Stormcloaks have been mentioned, I think one could say Bethesda did an excellent job drawing a complete line of symmetry between the two, they didn't seem to have given any advantage or disadvantage to either sides. One must open up their Role Playing side to decide which they want to fight for, I think all this thread could be now is Troll Slaying grounds and/or listening to people with creative ideas and possibilities on Ulfric or the Legion that might not be entirely true, but still something one could believe in to make it a deciding factor in the decision making of the topic.
In this way, the argument goes on, as there are more way than one to say the same thing.
((Sorry for repost, but I don't want to be overshadowed by a stray troll.))
The Thalmor Justiciars are in the Empire to monitor and enforce compliance but the game irrefutably presents you with the notion that their zeal and effectiveness in doing so was exponentially less intense before the Stormcloak rebellion. Prior to Ulfric's agitations one could openly, loudly and conspicuously praise Talos as a god in song in a public tavern for an entire week before the Justiciars took notice of it in the very city in which they're stationed. After Ulfric's agitations they begin to invade the private homes and detain, incarcerate and interrogate those suspected of worshipping Talos in secret. These actions are described and attributed as a reaction to Ulfric's Stormcloak Rebellion by NPC dialogue. This tragic state of affairs is a direct reaction by the Thalmor to what Ulfric is doing. That it's observable and supported by the game content makes it matter of indisputable fact even if you wish to remain deliberately obtuse to it.
Arrgggjh. Knock it off. Both of you are both much smarter than that. I've read your posts. They are meaningful, engaging, and intelligent.... Except when you start calling each other names.
Save that for the trolls, who don't deserve rational argument.
Okay. I realize that those who have been reading this thread from the beginning have seen the same arguments presented time and time again, and if you are not persuaded by them, perhaps you will never be persuaded by them. It gets old, seeing the same s--- over and over. I get that. Really.
However, sometimes a well articulated argument that was previously voiced by the mouth of a fool can still reach the mind of the curious. You may grow weary, but your points are important to those who are yet new (or newer) to the forums. Leave the blatant insults to the trolls.
Please?
I was joking, it wasn't meant to offend. I meant it as in his arguments are always all over the place, without hardly ever holding any relevence what he to what he is trying to argue. Much like someone with ADD.
We should make you a super hero costume with a Straw Man icon as your chest emblem. Maybe some Red Herring batarangs on a utility belt to complement the look.
Wow this is a hot topic..
I personally havent done any civil war quest mainly because I didn't know which side I wanted to take. After playing through a lot of the game I am finding myself more and more wanting to support the Stormcloaks mainly because I believe I should worship whoever the hell I want.
Plus I've had a couple run ins with these Thalmor punks and they really rub me the wrong way and couldn't see myself fighting along side them in anyway..