Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

The Mede Empire isn't the Septim Empire yes but Septim is just a name, the Nords hated Tiber Septim they raised an army against him, they didn't love him like a God, they fought against him. It was only until he defeated them they followed him. This banning of Talos stuff is used too much, so sad Almighty Talos can't be worshiped openly, the Empire never enforced this law until Ulfric started his crap doing what the Thalmor want because the Thalmor can't destroy the Empire as is, you hear them going "The Empire only lives because we allow it" That is false, if they could destroy the Empire they would have done it, they wouldn't have accepted any truce. Humans breed a lot faster than Elves I believe, their Military strength is returning, but the Thalmor don't want to fight the Empire they can't yet, they're planning hundreds of years ahead and they realised the Empire still united can attack a hell of a lot sooner.

Mede chose his people and just said sure to the Thalmor about Talos worship, because they could not continue fighting, he isn't an idiot he knew that to fight the Thalmor in Summerset Isles he'd need his entire Army, not less than half of it.

Only an idiot would continue the fight.

The Mede Empire has been in control for nearly 200 years they're not exactly brand new.

 

[Dagmar]

Be sad for the Stormcloaks if the Emperor is killed by the Dark Brotherhood as he is the only reason The Empire hasn't marched into Skyrim hitting it like a hammer to an anvil. I suppose the Emperor has his reasons probably wants to win the Nords back with a mainly Nord Legion. It is the reason the Fourth Legion is recruiting locally because Mede won't commit more forces, if he was to die in Skyrim, the Council could blame the Stormcloaks for the assassination with hiring the Dark Brotherhood, then a great purge would happen as several fresh Legions stormed into Skyrim like a flood. Ulfric may have stood against one Legion with indirect Thalmor aid but he will have a tough time against more, considering the Empire has 18 Legions all up.

First, one minor point but it bugs me whenever I see this. I don't believe there is any actual basis to assert that the Legion in Skyrim is the Fourth Legion. I can't find any source in the game that states which Legion it is and I consulted with one of the other contributors at UESP who has access to the game files and there's nothing in them to indicate that it's the Fourth Legion. I think the only reason this apparent misinformation has been so widely disseminated and accepted is because it comes from the a certain Elder Scrolls website that has a very poorly patrolled and mediocre lore section that contains a significant amount of inaccurate information and content that's completely inappropriate for lore articles. If someone can actually point to anything in the game that confirms that the Legion in Skyrim is the Fourth Legion they're more than welcome to do so.

Second it's pure speculation that the reason why additional Legions aren't reinforcing the Legion in Skyrim is for any other reason than what is plainly stated by several Legates which is that the Legion in general is stretched thin.

This leads to a third observation which is that we have no clue how many Legions currently exist. We know for a fact from the book The Great War: A Concise Account of the Great War Between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion that 3 of the Legions were completely annihilated during the course of the war, and the remaining Legions were at half strength or less. If we assume that there are still Eighteen Legions at the inception of The Great War that effectively doesn't even leave enough Legionnaires to fill the ranks of eight Legions, possibly not even seven.

In all likelihood the Empire reorganized the remaining Legions into 7 to 8 Legions. It has had roughly a generation to rebuild the Legion and given that it's missing one of its largest demographic for recruitment with the renunciation of Hammerfell, it's extremely improbable that it's been reconstituted to have even remotely as many Legions as it did prior to the Great War. This conclusion is far more consistent with what the Legates are telling you.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were less than 10 active Legions by 4E 201 which would explain why the Empire isn't providing much reinforcement of the Legion in Skyrim. If Titus Mede II were assassinated in Skyrim it would be foolish for the Elder Council to pull Legions away from its borders and shorelines that face the Aldmeri Dominion so the claim that Legions would flood into Skyrim seems to be a bit of an overstatement.

 

[Eidelon]

well, it is important to do the dark brotherhood quests before you kill general tulius(if u are gonna do dark brotherhood) otherwise it is weird for their to be the empire visiting a skyrim that has just rebeled and stormcloak soldiers gaurding the empire

 

[Dagmar]

The Mede Empire isn't the Septim Empire yes but Septim is just a name, the Nords hated Tiber Septim they raised an army against him, they didn't love him like a God, they fought against him. It was only until he defeated them they followed him.

The Nords didn't hate Tiber Septim. They didn't raise an army against him. They were fighting against the Colovian Estates and the self proclaimed Emperor Cuhlecain. Tiber Septim was his general. While he defeated the combined forces of High Rock and Skyrim at the Battle of Old Hrol'dan, according to the 1st Edition of the Pocket Guide to the Empire the Generals of the Skyrim armies chose to join him enthusiastically because of his charisma, skills as a military commander and his use of Thu'um. The book Battle of Sancre Tor also indicates that their alliance with High Rock was already in a fragile state by the time they met Tiber Septim on the battlefield. The Nords clearly loved and revered him.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Nords didn't hate Tiber Septim. They didn't raise an army against him. They were fighting against the Colovian Estates and the self proclaimed Emperor Cuhlecain. Tiber Septim was his general. While he defeated the combined forces of High Rock and Skyrim at the Battle of Old Hrol'dan, according to the 1st Edition of the Pocket Guide to the Empire the Generals of the Skyrim armies chose to join him enthusiastically because of his charisma, skills as a military commander and his use of Thu'um. The book Battle of Sancre Tor also indicates that their alliance with High Rock was already in a fragile state by the time they met Tiber Septim on the battlefield. The Nords clearly loved and revered him.

They were looking to fight Talos, they knew he'd be sent to stop them, if you read the book "Nord-Breton allies dared King Cuhlecain's new general, Talos, to assault them in their mountain fastnesses."

But either way I couldn't see them loving him until he beat them.

Second it's pure speculation that the reason why additional Legions aren't reinforcing the Legion in Skyrim is for any other reason than what is plainly stated by several Legates which is that the Legion in general is stretched thin.

I do believe they are referring to their own Legion with Tullius' current tactics which spreads his Legion thin across Skyrim from city to fort to camp, he has spread his Legion out not in a single dense area.

Tullius himself I believe states he is not being reinforced from Cyrodill not just his Legates.

 

[Dagmar]

I do believe they are referring to their own Legion with Tullius' current tactics which spreads his Legion thin across Skyrim from city to fort to camp, he has spread his Legion out not in a single dense area.

No they aren't. They're referring to the Imperial Legion as a whole not just in Skyrim. That's why they refer to the Empire, not the Imperial Legion in Skyrim, as being stretched thin. It's the reason they give for getting very few reinforcements (few not none).

 

[DrunkenMage]

No they aren't. They're referring to the Imperial Legion as a whole not just in Skyrim. That's why they refer to the Empire, not the Imperial Legion in Skyrim, as being stretched thin. It's the reason they give for getting very few reinforcements (few not none).

What would also account for not getting a lot of reinforcements is not having solid communications with Cyrodiil since the loss of Helgan.

But you are right they do mention the Empire, been quite sometime since I've spoken to a Legate before joining the Empire.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

Hey, HEY! This is about Stormcloacks vs Imperials. Which is better?

 

[Eidelon]

Well stormcloaks are racists and imperials are sissies,

 

[DrunkenMage]

Anthony Hopkins for High King of Skyrim.

 

[Dagmar]

Noooo! Not Hannibal the Cannibal! Bring back Sean Bean. He was Martin Septim and Eddard Stark, Lord of the North and master of Skyrim memes!

 

[DrunkenMage]

New Military Governor Russell Crowe.

Also featuring Ulfric on his quest to get his precious throne.

 

[Janus3003]

General Zod, Emperor of Nirn. Now kneel.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

Hey, HEY! This is about Stormcloacks vs Imperials. Which is better?

Thank you captain obvious, unless you had a strange idea we got really off topic, then you really need to realize that this thread is on topic, just on a deeper level than just game mechanics. Please, read all 186 pages to completion then return with something constructive.

 

[Tdroid]

This has always been a point of interest to me in Skyrim, though I won't read 186 pages of posts before posting myself. However, I have discussed this many time on another forum and I think I'll summarize some of the most common points in favor and opposition for each side, as well as a few miscenceptions that was rather common on the other site.
Just to give a fair warning; I am a bit biased towards the Empire, but I'll try to be as impartial as possible.

Stormcloaks:
Pro:

• Skyrim is located in a very secluded position from the Aldmeri Dominion and with two unfriendly nations on their borders the Aldmeri Dominion cannot realisticly send an invasion army.
• A Stormcloak victory would mean that the Thalmor are no longer welcome as the nation will be openly hostile towards the Dominion. Less people dragged off and tortured for worshipping Talos.
• Restoring Talos worship. Important for mythological reasons.
• Skyrim will be free of the Empire so they don't send a ot of resources to Cyrodiil. Easier to rebuild Skyrim itself.
• Passionate leader who inspires the people.

Con:

• Secluded location. While this is good when they are rebuilding their nation, Skyrims location will make it hard for the Nords to attack the Aldmeri Dominion, unless they ally with another nation.
• No guaranteed allies. Independent Skyrim is a wildcard when it comes to alliances.
• Will need a long time to prepare for war. The Imperial legion has been, as far as I understand it, the main army of Skyrim since the Nords joined in the Septim Empire. Building an army from a rebell force will take a lot of time.

Empire:
Pro:

• The Imperial Legion is a powerful fighting force even now and according to General Tullius in the Season Unending quest, most of it is currently stationed at the Aldmeri Border(to make sure there isn't an invasion).
• The Thalmors presense will be weakened by an Imperial victory, according to the Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak.
• At least 2 nations guaranteed to be allied. The two nations who are known as the backbone of the Empire no less.
• Common border with the entire Aldmeri Dominion via Cyrodiil.

Con:

• Cyrodiil is in upheaval, according to Cicero's journal.
• The Thalmor are allowed to move very freely on Imperial land
• Continued ban on Talos worship(at least temporarily)
• Many of Skyrims resources will be sent to Cyrodiil to rebuild it, though if that is positive or negative can be debated.
• We know little about the political situation in Cyrodiil, with the exception of the unfortunate event at the end of the Dark brotherhood questline.

Misconceptions:
Ulfric is racist:
I have yet to see any conclusive evidence of this in the game. There are some sources that states this, true, but all of those sources have a motive for slander and to turn people against him. Free-Winter becomes Jarl if the Empire wins, at the New Gnisis Cornerclub you can find Imperial Armor and banner(s?).
There are some racist Stormcloaks, like Bolund and Rolff, but they are hardly representative for the side. There are also racists on the other side of the conflict, like the headsman in Solitude.

No statement from Ulfric shows that he is racist and Galmar, his right hand man, says that they are not looking for sellswords if you ask if only Nords can join(non-Nord dialogue option only) and agrees that Skyrim is home to more than just the Nords.

The Empire is but a puppet of the Thalmor:
This is how it looks at the first glance of the situation, especially if you heed the words of Ondolemhar(spelling?), the Thalmor agent inn Markarth.
However, the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric, which I mentioned earlier, states explicitly that the Thalmors situation in Skyrim will be weakened if the Empire wins the civil war. General Tullius also states the following quote in the Season Undending quest(if you are not affiliated with the Stormcloaks and do not persuade him:
Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes.(Heard in gameplay by yours truly).

It is clear that the Empire intends to fight the Thalmor, but when is more uncertain.

X side is less moral because of Y:
This civil war has no moral supperior as far as I know. Most all things you can point out that is negative for one side, outside of the issues already adressed, are mutual. Some examples:

• Ensuring the Moots outcome by placing the "right" Jarls on the thrones.
• Execution for dissent(Jarl Skald explicitly threathens with this).
• Corruption. The Silver-Bloods and the Black-Briars for example.
• Racism. Already adressed.

Ulfric Murdered the High King:
Like the racism issue, I have still to see anytihng that makes me believe this. Even Sybile Stentor, the Solitude court mage, acknowledge that the duel not only took place, but that it was a legal duel. She says that when the duel was issued in court, Torygg was bound to respond to it.

Ulfric misused the Thu'um:
The Thu'um was given to the Nords by Kyne so they could fight back against the dragons. It was and is an instrument of war and an ancient tradition among the Nords. Only the Greybeards code was broken, but Ulfric was no longer a Greybeard. He trained with them as a child(until he became of age and the Great War started).

So, there is my summarization of the Skyrim civil war.

 

[Flint firestorm]

Ulfric misused the Thu'um:
The Thu'um was given to the Nords by Kyne so they could fight back against the dragons. It was and is an instrument of war and an ancient tradition among the Nords. Only the Greybeards code was broken, but Ulfric was no longer a Greybeard. He trained with them as a child(until he became of age and the Great War started).

So, there is my summarization of the Skyrim civil war.

Last time I checked Torygg wasn't a dragon. Did Kyne give the Thu'um to the nords so they could usurp their kings? Also people say ulfrics very honorable, but how betraying the trust of the graybeards honorable?

 

[Tdroid]

Last time I checked Torygg wasn't a dragon. Did Kyne give the Thu'um to the nords so they could usurp their kings? Also people say ulfrics very honorable, but how betraying the trust of the graybeards honorable?

Betraying their trust is hardly what I call it. He left when the war began, because he couldn't miss it after spending about 10 years there from childhood. He was never given a choice in whether or not he would be thought the Thu'um. That he took advantage of the training after he decided to leave the Greybeards means nothing.

Besides, the Greybeards origins is highly supicious. Jurgen Windcaller was a warleader among the Nords and a very powerful Tongue, then he suffered a devestating loss against the Tribunal. What did he do after that? He pondered on the defeat and came to the conclusion that Kyne must have punished the Nords, so he founded the Way of the Voice. The Greybeards themselves even say that he came to that conclusion on his own.
Seems that it is the result of a man who couldn't stand defeat and decided that if he couldn't win with the Voice in war, no one should be allowed to use it for war.

 

[Dagmar]

There are some sources that states this, true, but all of those sources have a motive for slander and to turn people against him.

It's truly dumbfounding that apologists for Ulfric continue to make this inaccurate assertion. There's a glaring objective and unassailable basis for his being a racist which is his enforcement of Windhelm's system of apartheid on the Dunmer. I can only conclude that some people simply don't understand what racism is and that it's defined far more by actions than words.

Ulfric misused the Thu'um:
The Thu'um was given to the Nords by Kyne so they could fight back against the dragons. It was and is an instrument of war and an ancient tradition among the Nords.

As Flint firestorm pointed out, Ulfric isn't a Dragon. More importantly, while it's speculation, it is speculation strongly supported by reason and observation and countered by little to nothing in the game that a duel between two warriors under the Nordic right of challenge is supposed to be a trial of combat by steel not magic. Magic is clearly an anathema to the Nords as a whole and looked upon with disdain. One can easily infer from some of the Companions' dialogues that it's not considered an honorable means of combat for a warrior. This is further reinforced by Torygg's own statement in Sovengarde which implies that Ulfric's use of Thu'um in a duel under the right of challenge was dishonorable.

To put it more simply, I've asked the question several times to those who try to defend an alternate position, if Ulfric summoned an Ancient Dragon with the power of Thu'um to sweep down and kill Torygg do you honestly believe that would comport to the standards of conduct dictated for an honor duel between two warriors under the Nordic right of challenge?

 

[Dagmar]

...Skyrim will be free of the Empire so they don't send a ot of resources to Cyrodiil. Easier to rebuild Skyrim itself.....Many of Skyrims resources will be sent to Cyrodiil to rebuild it, though if that is positive or negative can be debated.

There's nothing in the lore that supports this. The ingame dialogues largely assert the opposite, i.e. that Skyrim is dependent on subsidies from the Empire.

...Even Sybile Stentor, the Solitude court mage, acknowledge that the duel not only took place, but that it was a legal duel.

She said nothing of the sort. She said that it was Nord custom to accept the challenge. That hardly makes it legal and regardless of whether one thinks it's not murder in layman's terms it's irrefutably high treason under Imperial Law to do any harm to an allegiated sovereign of the Empire under any circumstances.

 

[Tdroid]

It's truly dumbfounding that apologists for Ulfric continue to make this inaccurate assertion. There's a glaring objective and unassailable basis for his being a racist which is his enforcement of Windhelm's system of apartheid on the Dunmer. I can only conclude that some people simply don't understand what racism is and that it's defined far more by actions than words.

I challenge you to find me 1 objective source of that. 1 year on the Bethesda Forums have these debates been going on, and I have yet to see any such thing.

As for the Dunmer, you should read this book, the Decree of Monument, and remember that even if the Empire wins, the situation doesn't change.

As Flint firestorm pointed out, Ulfric isn't a Dragon. More importantly, while it's speculation, it is speculation strongly supported by reason and observation and countered by little to nothing in the game that a duel between two warriors under the Nordic right of challenge is supposed to be a trial of combat by steel not magic. Magic is clearly an anathema to the Nords as a whole and looked upon with disdain. One can easily infer from some of the Companions' dialogues that it's not considered an honorable means of combat for a warrior. This is further reinforced by Torygg's own statement in Sovengarde which implies that Ulfric's use of Thu'um in a duel under the right of challenge was dishonorable.

To put it more simply, I've asked the question several times to those who try to defend an alternate position, if Ulfric summoned an Ancient Dragon with the power of Thu'um to sweep down and kill Torygg do you honestly believe that would comport to the standards of conduct dictated for an honor duel between two warriors under the Nordic right of challenge?

You equate summoning an ally to using a power directly, so your question is essentially irrelevant. It is like you challenging me and I accept, then I ask my friend who is a champion of mixed martial arts(for the sale of this example) to take you down for me. Not quite compatable to the duel between Ulfric and Torygg.

Ulfric is not a dragon, but the Thu'um was still given to man by Kyne so I don't see the relevance there either. Magic is indeed looked down upon by most Nords, but the Thu'um seems to be an exception to the rule. It is an art of magic that the Nords and Nords alone practised and it is an important cultural art.

And then there is a radient event where a challenging wizard can approach you. Since the terms of the duel is never specified you can approach it any way you want. Even though you are challenged because of your skill with magic, you can kill the challenger with a weapon in front of guards who will not intervene.
An example of fights that have specidied terms is the tavern brawls where they ask for no weapons or magic.
Based on this, I don't think it is reasonable to assume that the Thu'um was illegal.