Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Dagmar]

Some people say torygg wasn't a true king but he was voted in by the moot.

Some people are wrong. The title of High King is passed on by lineal descent. The only time the Moot has the authority to elect a High King is when the current High King dies without any lineal heirs. The meeting of the Moot for Torygg's coronation was a ceremonial one.

 

[Flint firestorm]

Some people are wrong. The title of High King is passed on by lineal descent. The only time the Moot has the authority to elect a High King is when the current High King dies without any lineal heirs. The meeting of the Moot for Torygg's coronation was a ceremonial one.

Exactly. Just because Ulfric didn't think the king didn't mean that he could kill him. If everyone acted like ulfric then It would be like the Romans in the third century, where if the army got tired of the emperor or felt he wasn't doing a good job, They would simply kill him and install a new emperor, who would evenly suffer the same fate as his predecessor.

 

[Anouck]

I picked the Imperial side because I don't like the racist nature of the Stormcloaks. But as soon as I finished the game I'm going to play it again as a Stormcloak soldier. Ignoring one of the two is ignoring a complete storytelling. Playing as a Stormcloak or Imperial has a big influence on the game and it would be a pitty to reject the luxury of two different storytellings in one game.

 

[Raijin]

What they feel and what actually happened are two separate things. If you have any understanding what was going on after the Battle of the Red Ring you have to realize that point of view is an extreme oversimplification of what was going on at the time. Citing Galmar doesn't change anything either. Those are his opinions. Their appeal to you doesn't make them facts.

Lore:Wars - UESPWiki

Battle of the Red Ring

, 4E 175.[50] Titus II splits his remaining forces into three hosts that surround the occupied Imperial City. After a long, bloody battle, the Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil is utterly destroyed and the Imperial City recaptured. Lord Naarifin is hanged from the top of White-Gold Tower and kept alive for thirty-three days. Despite the resounding victory, Titus II realizes that the Empire is too exhausted to continue fighting. Titus negotiates with the Thalmor and signs the White-Gold Concordat, a treaty that gives the Thalmor free reign to stamp out the worship of Talos in Tamriel, disbands the Blades, and cedes a large part of southern Hammerfell to the Aldmeri Dominion. Critics note that the terms of the Concordat are almost identical to those of the original ultimatum presented by the Thalmor prior to the war.

The lore indicates that the Empire annihilated the Aldmeri army in Cyrodill, and successfully recapture the Imperial city. They've captured their leader, Lord Naarifin, and was hanged (I assume in 1 of those human size cages) on top of the White-Gold Tower for 33 days in a symbolic way. I'm guessing they've executed him soon after his time was up. This was HUGE positive impact for the Empire. The strength and power was there. They went from getting their asses pounded by the Aldmeri in 4E 174 to getting a great victory in 4E 175. Then Titus decided, in spite of their great accomplishments of recapturing the Imperial City from the elves, that he would surrender to them by signing a treaty that allows the Thalmor free reign to arrest, imprisoned, and kill Talos worshipers. This decision of his cost him a great deal. He lost respect by many of his own peers and race, and that includes losing one of the most promising assets of Hammerfell.

While Cyrodill did sustain massive damage to their country.... At the time The empire had Hammerfell, High Rock, Skyrim and Morrowind for aid. I also believe that Black marsh and Elsweyr are part of the Empire if I'm not mistaken. You mean to tell me that the Emperor couldn't ask for an emergency assistance? I'm sure theirs a form of a draft in this fictional world that we love so much.

Yes I firmly believe that the Empire, with the help of Hammerfell, High Rock and Skyrim, can easily wipe out the Thalmor, and could've very easily win the war.

There's nothing wrong with the Empire carrying out Imperial Law by executing Ulfric at Helgen. He's not just being accused of the crime of high treason, he's indisputably guilty of it so the absence of a trial to which no one is even entitled in the Elder Scrolls universe is a complete non-issue as a trial is completely unnecessary to establish his guilt. Everyone on all sides concedes that he killed the High King and it's not as if he's going to deny that he killed Torygg. Ulfric himself never brings it up because unlike you, he's a character of the Tamriel and acts like it.

If Ralof was real he would disagree with you. He pointed out that the empire wouldn't give Ulfric a fair trial. How can you be guilty without being convicted? If he broke Imperial law shouldn't he be tried prior to execution? Doesn't he deserve to proof himself innocent by collecting witnesses and so on? Did you also notice during Battle of Windhelm after the door was secured Tullius started talking loud directly at Ulfric as he walks towards him: “"Ulfric Stormcloak! You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, the assassination of King Torygg, and high treason against the Empire. It's over." Again how can Tullius say that hes guilty when he never step foot inside of an Imperial court?

 

[Raijin]

Back up for this is here. Since I'm just sick of watching you guys be idiots and out right ignore obvious racism every time Dagmar or someone else makes this god damn point. I will give you the f***ing definition of the term!

racism, n.

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Now then, read that and then look at Ulfric's actions and right me an intelligent post on how Ulfric's actions do not mirror the definition.

Racism is quite common in Skyrim. What is your point?

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

Doesn't he deserve to proof himself innocent by collecting witnesses and so on? Did you also notice during Battle of Windhelm after the door was secured Tullius started talking loud directly at Ulfric as he walks towards him: “"Ulfric Stormcloak! You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, the assassination of King Torygg, and high treason against the Empire. It's over." Again how can Tullius say that hes guilty when he never step foot inside of an Imperial court?

Simple, the idea of "innocent until proven guilty" is likely non-existent in Tamriel due to the period of time the game is roughly based around, in fact in the even in the 12th century (which I would deem as far past the period of time Skyrim is based on) just being accused of a crime often meant, as far as the law is concerned, you're considered guilty and a trial was skipped. As for High Treason, whenever Ulfric brags about killing Torygg he is admitting to High Treason, so listing other crimes is likely more to boost Tullius' ego if anything.

 

[Anouck]

It's only a game and maybe some people take it too serious . Playing as a Stormcloak, who have a racist nature, does not make you a racist as well. I joined the Dark Brotherhood and that would mean I am an assassin who's going to kill you

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

It's only a game and maybe some people take it too serious . Playing with a Stormcloak, who have a racist nature, does not make you a racist as well. I joined the Dark Brotherhood and that would mean I am an assassin who's going to kill you

The point is that many people claim Ulfric isn't racist. Which is really annoying. Please read the last 187 pages of this thread to be caught up.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

Racism is quite common in Skyrim. What is your point?

I was simply pointing out what racism was when someone was cliaming that something, which was by definition racism, was saying that it wasn't.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

I'd like to field your complaints one at a time. You say that the empire could have easily beaten the Dominion? You forgot that soliders aren't unlimited. Think of all the battles during the war. Every one of them had fatalities. And the Summerselt Isles were still untouched while the fighting made it to the Imperial City. And did you forget that the Dominion had Valenwood and Elswyer? Just the fact that they managed to wear each other down to the point where the WGC was even possible was impressive.
Also about Ulfric not being guilty without a trial? It was witnesses, he's admitted the act multiple times, and this is basically pre-Rennisance society. What would have been done in real life? The fact is, they operate in a society where due process doesn't exist, just like we used to.
And please remember that the Stormcloaks are undeniably racist, and the leader of the 500 companions used an axe that's essentially a weapon of genocide called 'elf grinder'.

 

[Anouck]

The point is that many people claim Ulfric isn't racist. Which is really annoying. Please read the last 187 pages of this thread to be caught up.

every single one of them? No thank you. But you are right.

I'm currently playing as an Imperial but as soon as I finished the game I'll play it again as a Stormcloak to see the influece it has on the story. It does not mean I agree with Ulfric - it is just curiousity. And that's completely innocent since Skyrim is just a game...

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

every single one of them? No thank you. But you are right.

I'm currently playing as an Imperial but as soon as I finished the game I'll play it again as a Stormcloak to see the influece it has on the story. It does not mean I agree with Ulfric - it is just curiousity. And that's completely innocent since Skyrim is just a game...

I fully agree, however there are some people here you actually defend Ulfric's racism or a the least deny it.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

I'd like to field your complaints one at a time. You say that the empire could have easily beaten the Dominion? You forgot that soliders aren't unlimited. Think of all the battles during the war. Every one of them had fatalities. And the Summerselt Isles were still untouched while the fighting made it to the Imperial City. And did you forget that the Dominion had Valenwood and Elswyer? Just the fact that they managed to wear each other down to the point where the WGC was even possible was impressive.
Also about Ulfric not being guilty without a trial? It was witnesses, he's admitted the act multiple times, and this is basically pre-Rennisance society. What would have been done in real life? The fact is, they operate in a society where due process doesn't exist, just like we used to.
And please remember that the Stormcloaks are undeniably racist, and the leader of the 500 companions used an axe that's essentially a weapon of genocide called 'elf grinder'.

Tidy up the grammar, spelling, and structure of that and you sir have just made sense. THANK YOU.

 

[Flint firestorm]

While Cyrodill did sustain massive damage to their country.... At the time The empire had Hammerfell, High Rock, Skyrim and Morrowind for aid. I also believe that Black marsh and Elsweyr are part of the Empire if I'm not mistaken. You mean to tell me that the Emperor couldn't ask for an emergency assistance? I'm sure theirs a form of a draft in this fictional world that we love so much.

Yes I firmly believe that the Empire, with the help of Hammerfell, High Rock and Skyrim, can easily wipe out the Thalmor, and could've very easily win the war.

did you even read your own quote before you posted?Titus II realizes that the Empire is too exhausted to continue fighting. also blackmarsh had left the empire and had conquered morrowind after the country was nearly destroyed by a volcano. also elsweyr is allied with the thalmor.

 

[Anouck]

I fully agree, however there are some people here you actually defend Ulfric's racism or a the least deny it.

true... I don't think "Racism is common in Skyrim" is a good argument to join the Stormcloaks. Racism was also very common in America in the 50s but still it was wrong...

 

[Raijin]

Simple, the idea of "innocent until proven guilty" is likely non-existent in Tamriel due to the period of time the game is roughly based around, in fact in the even in the 12th century (which I would deem as far past the period of time Skyrim is based on) just being accused of a crime often meant, as far as the law is concerned, you're considered guilty and a trial was skipped. As for High Treason, whenever Ulfric brags about killing Torygg he is admitting to High Treason, so listing other crimes is likely more to boost Tullius' ego if anything.

Tullius painted Ulfric as a High King assassin... a brutal murder but in fact that in Nordic traditions Ulfric did everything in the book to make this fight legal. Go read Tdroid post regarding to Sybile Stentor. Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one? | Page 187 | Skyrim Forums
Yeah Ulfric does brag about killing the High king... Who wouldn't? Torygg was a weak High king that didn't know how to defend himself during battle. How can he defend all of Skyrim when he couldn't defend himself? A a very good point that Ulfric made. Since Torygg did accepted Ulfric's challenge it's no longer High Treason since a vocal agreement was established through witnesses.

 

[azali100]

Tullius painted Ulfric as a High King assassin... a brutal murder but in fact that in Nordic traditions Ulfric did everything in the book to make this fight legal. Go read Tdroid post regarding to Sybile Stentor. Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one? | Page 187 | Skyrim Forums
Yeah Ulfric does brag about killing the High king... Who wouldn't? Torygg was a weak High king that didn't know how to defend himself during battle. How can he defend all of Skyrim when he couldn't defend himself? A a very good point that Ulfric made. Since Torygg did accepted Ulfric's challenge it's no longer High Treason since a vocal agreement was established through witnesses.

Nordic Custom=\=Imperial Law

I think the point is that it doesn't matter if Torygg agreed with the duel, because the Empire doesn't. And Torygg's decisions are overruled by the Emperor's.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

Tullius painted Ulfric as a High King assassin... a brutal murder but in fact that in Nordic traditions Ulfric did everything in the book to make this fight legal. Go read Tdroid post regarding to Sybile Stentor. Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one? | Page 187 | Skyrim Forums
Yeah Ulfric does brag about killing the High king... Who wouldn't? Torygg was a weak High king that didn't know how to defend himself during battle. How can he defend all of Skyrim when he couldn't defend himself? A a very good point that Ulfric made. Since Torygg did accepted Ulfric's challenge it's no longer High Treason since a vocal agreement was established through witnesses.

If it was "by the book" and "legal" why did Ulfric ride out of Solitude? Or better yet, why would Ulfric even need to wage a war if it was legal. Tradition does not equal legal. It was a duel by Nordic tradition, it was not a duel by Imperial Law. If anything Ulfric's actions are those of a zealot of Talos and a blood thirsty coward. He killed a "weak" king with little personal combat experience, and then ran from town to start a war all in the name of a God he could no longer worship according to an unenforced law. While I applaud you on using the term "assassin" properly I must say that just because a challenge was issued doesn't make it legal. At one time I could challenge you yourself Raijin to a duel and then shoot you and declare myself right in this whole debate and it was tradition to do so in many countries, but now law forbids that action. While the Empire allows legal duels, there are conditions and exceptions to those laws. Killing a High King is clearly one exception.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

Tullius painted Ulfric as a High King assassin... a brutal murder but in fact that in Nordic traditions Ulfric did everything in the book to make this fight legal. Go read Tdroid post regarding to Sybile Stentor. Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one? | Page 187 | Skyrim Forums
Yeah Ulfric does brag about killing the High king... Who wouldn't? Torygg was a weak High king that didn't know how to defend himself during battle. How can he defend all of Skyrim when he couldn't defend himself? A a very good point that Ulfric made. Since Torygg did accepted Ulfric's challenge it's no longer High Treason since a vocal agreement was established through witnesses.

You fail to acknowledge several things. Number one, the practic of being able to challenge a ruler to a fight to the death any time you want is barbaric. What would be your honest reaction if the policy was, 'if you can kill the president, you get to run America'? Also, do you even know what a king is? The first concern of any ruler is the proper running and maintance of their nation. This involves a lot of planning, intelligence, and wisdom. So not only is this dual barbaric, but an insufficient test for ones right to rule. And also, Torygg had no choice but to face Ulfric. It was a matter of honor that he not back down or show weakness. Have a quote, Raijin.
"I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?"

 

[Mr1cammando]

Tullius painted Ulfric as a High King assassin... a brutal murder but in fact that in Nordic traditions Ulfric did everything in the book to make this fight legal. Go read Tdroid post regarding to Sybile Stentor. Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one? | Page 187 | Skyrim Forums
Yeah Ulfric does brag about killing the High king... Who wouldn't? Torygg was a weak High king that didn't know how to defend himself during battle. How can he defend all of Skyrim when he couldn't defend himself? A a very good point that Ulfric made. Since Torygg did accepted Ulfric's challenge it's no longer High Treason since a vocal agreement was established through witnesses.

I ran over a cat today. It was weak and deserved to die even though it held my ideals. But, for some reason, when I bragged about it to my friends they said I was a monster for running over a cat. People are weird.