Trust me, I've gathered this much. However, I am not only comparing the Romans to the Imperials. Rather, I've compared other cultures and empires in our timeline. If the effect is the same, its hard to think the cause wouldn't be somewhat similar, no?
Depend on the effect, which effects would you be referring to?
Not the by the True Sons of Skyrim. And those Nords happen to be my favorite. ;D
I found the "True Sons and Daughters of Skyrim" to actually be more Imperial than Nords of the previous titles.
You're right, they make far better Emperors (such as the first Mede and Tiber Septim).
Titus Mede wasn't just this warrior, he was good strategist in being able to secure the Imperial City with one thousand men and crushing an uprising with barely twice that. He was also behind the creation of the Penitus Oculatus.
Tiber Septim wasn't by any means a warrior. He was perhaps the most devious underhanded man born, cruel and only used people if they could serve a purpose.
Ulfric isn't by any means a good strategist, he was captured not that long after Tullius arrived. He's a good warrior, and he does have some political ability, but he's nothing compared to Tiber and Titus.
Titus proved himself on the field? But Ulfric can't lead because he's a warrior! Why you picking sides all of a sudden, Mr. Pot? Is it because Highking Kettle shouted the kid into Oblivion?
Titus proved himself both politically and military wise. Ulfric can't lead because he's single race minded, he's not overly skilled in Military achievements having been captured three times. His political skills are not too bad, but he can barely control his own city.
But how would the guards know that? Technically, they're still selling the stuff well within their hold and that could lead to arrest. But they're not. They don't have the evidence which is why they don't pursue it. All they have is a suspicion, which apparently is enough to ban them all EVERYWHERE. Besides, Ysolda seems to trust them which is at least saying there is SOMEONE in Skyrim willing to do some serious bartering with Charismatic Superiors.
They probably wouldn't have proof, else they would be arrested. Suspicion is good enough in Skyrim for the most part, the Dunmer are suspected to be Imperial spies so Galmar's brother figures he should get some men and go torture one to find out.
Jarls control who gets in their city, has nothing to do with being Imperial or Stormcloak. Khajiit are welcome in cities within Cyrodiil, there was even a Khajiit working in the Penitus Oculatus in the novels.
Khajiit caravans have a reputation for thieves, skooma dealers and smugglers. Racially based or not, they do actually sell drugs and buy stolen goods, they also smuggle. It isn't like they're completely innocent.
Hypothetically speaking, in almost every Skyrim playthrough, there is a higher likelihood that Titus Mede will be assassinated by the Dark Brotherhood and about a fifty/fifty chance Ulfric will die. Just saying.
Actually there would be a good chance Ulfric would die, same with Tullius. Since both sides can't win. Titus Mede is probably assassinated, but that doesn't matter too much. Emperors come and go all the time, they rarely have a long reign.
I'm also just saying (or rather willing to wager) that the Jarl in question actually knew Ulfric prior to him being suuuuuuuuuch an asshat.
Ulfric became a Greybeard as a child, then went off to the Great War. Year after the war, Markarth Incident. Years after that, Jarl of Windhelm and he plots his rebellion. Doubt he'd actually know Ulfric before he changed that well.
As for Titus Mede and the Empire, I think the closest he's been would be the former High King of Skyrim. He's just a Jarl, and as impressive as that may seem, he is only a glorified peasant in the eyes of an Empire. Though, this is just an assumption from a "The local tyrant is a preferred tyrant" sort of outlook.
Jarls are generally considered Kings outside of Skyrim. I wouldn't say they're glorified peasants, Skyrim is the second most important province within the Empire. Jarls would be akin to Cyrodiil Counts. Members of the Septim Dynasty were Jarls of Solitude at some point.
I keep wondering every now and then... what would happen if the Empire DIDN'T interfere? As in, they decided to keep Tullius in Cyrodiil along with his legion in case the Thalmor decide to pull a fast one. Would it still be Stormcloak vs Imperial? I don't think it would. Infact, I think that the Civil War would be even more depressing and less of a reason to fight for Ulfric. I'd support Elisif if it came to that, I really would. What happened to her husband was disheartening, quite tragic. Ulfric is extremely arrogant. And most of Skyrim would still be split down the middle...
If the Legion didn't step in, it would be the same it has been for years only worse. The Holds having skirmishes between each other. Ulfric killing Torygg however gave him the major support of the Holds around him. Legion stepped in when sides were taken.
Or would it? Hypothetically speaking, it would be a shame if most of the Jarls DID support Ulfric over Elisif. However, the Empire decided to intervene (because, you know... Imperial Laws > Nord Traditions). Because they did, we know that half the Jarls support Elisif's bid. But do they support her for her or her for the Empire?
The Empire would have stepped in to restore order, it isn't simply a case of Imperial laws > Skyrim tradition, while that is also true however. The Legion stepped in to preserve the Empire, killing the vassal of the Emperor without some form of consequence would spark various Warlords to pop up.
Perhaps if Skyrim requires Cyrodiil to exist and can't stand on her own legs, then maybe it isn't Skyrim that's weak. Maybe it was Cyrodiil and her crown that made her so. Rely on Cyrodiilic food so your family may live and in return we harvest your most bloodthirsty warriors. We wouldn't have to do this, but we lost the Redguards recently so Nord shoulders will have to carry the rest of this burden.
A stark irony... I would compare this hypothesis to a moment in history, but the only thing that comes to mind is a strange alteration of "The White Man's Burden". Such is life, eh?
Skyrim could probably stand on their own, but how the Stormcloaks went about it was clearly the wrong way. If Ulfric had asked Torygg to go for independence and he rejected then civil war could be the only option.
The Empire is on the brink of war with the Aldmeri Dominion, for Skyrim to break away through rebellion cutting the Empire up, isolating Cyrodiil from their controlled area in High Rock would mean a big loss of Imperial control. Stormcloaks will then use their resources to try build these nine armies, and making Skyrim able to stand on it's own. Meanwhile, how many Nords in the Imperial Army would simply leave? Their home just left the Empire, and they have loved ones back there who may depend on their wages which they families won't be able to get anymore since the Empire was pushed out of Skyrim.
If this were thirty years ago, alright. But on the very brink of war with the Thalmor?
You said the rebellion isn't even worth bringing one official Legion into play, how on earth is that reason to stop invasion plans? Rome had wars on multiple fronts at all times, even during Civil War.
Show me where I said this? I recall saying that Titus II isn't sending reinforcements and that Pale Pass is blocked, stopping any reinforcements anyway.
Did Rome get hit with a Great War that nearly wiped them off the face of the earth, gather their forces to fight another Empire that is equal to their ability and could match their forces. So while fighting this other Empire, they could so easily deal with an uprising at the same time that threatens to tear a third of the Empire away and cuts off the only other third? Not to mention Dragons wiping out entire Legion garrisons.
Rome wasn't fighting a force that could shoot lightning bolts out of their fl*ffing hands.
No he isn't, but it's a rebellion, it would be hard to rebel if nobody liked him and didn't join his cause now would it? Same with the few Nords who join the Legion, if they didn't think the Empire were a better choice they obviously wouldn't join.
Not everyone actually likes him, they agree with the cause. It isn't
his cause, he is using it to gain the throne. You don't have to like someone to agree with them.
"I've heard some things about Ulfric I don't like, but he's right about this war and about Skyrim's future." - Ralof
Many Empire supporters don't like everything the Empire has done, they support it because they feel it is the right choice.
So 'racism' is acceptable as long as all people share the same view, but the Nords 'racism' too Dunmer and Argonians isn't because it's only them who feel that way?
Again, I didn't say racism is acceptable. You were saying it is fine for the Imperials to put all Nords into being lawless barbarians. Which I disagreed, and also pointing out those Redguards you seem to believe you can ally with feel the same.
You Stormcloaks cry on about Tullius not respecting Nords, but then go on to say the Dunmer and Argonians have to earn their respect. Why shouldn't the Nords earn Tullius' respect also?
I don't care what may happen in the future, you quoted that the Jarls being killed meant the Empire had to do something, Jarls are not being killed.
Torygg
was a Jarl, and he was killed. The Empire stepped in after his death. The other Jarls aren't being killed yet, but that also stems from a gameplay with how the Civil War was supposed to be. The enemy being able to take your cities, if you were careless you would have six different rulers of a single city dying within the same year.
He listened to the crys of his people who demanded war for years of betrayal by the Empire, doing what his people want means he is a good Jarl.
Ulfric fueled their passions, but of course there were those who called out for war. Their Jarl had died and the heir was arrested, finally set free. His grandfather could have done the exact same thing, and have a rebellion. The want to push out the Empire isn't new, there were those who wanted to do it prior to the Great War even.
But Nords always call out for war, it is when they stop, you start to worry.
Except the Legion in TES and the Empire IS based 100% off the Romans..
Aye, but does it mean they're anything like the Roman Empire. Though if we're getting into it, the Empire got their "Roman" style from the Akaviri. So the Akaviri are the real 100% Romans.
Could also argue Arena Argonians were Roman.
From the race of the people who occupy it
Race of people? The Empire is made up of all races, and the Legion is filled with all different races.
to the ranks and hierarchy, equipment, formations..
Which came from the Akaviri reforms. Though in Morrowind the Legion was a lot like Knights, but them having Roman style doesn't mean Rome's history has anything to do with TES.
I didn't say it wasn't the same, I was pointing out your choice of using real life comparisons when it suits you and bashing them when it doesn't.
Alright fine, I'll concede, we'll use real life comparisons and I'll accept them as being valid. I'll be fair, because if I was to use an argument style found in our world, then it wouldn't be right if others aren't allowed to use cultures and the downfall of Rome as evidence the TES Empire is doing the exact same.
I never saw it unti now, obviously the Stormcloaks will win because Ulfric is really Arminius and the Stormcloak rebellion is the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest. Tullius is like Publius Quinctilius Varus and will lose his legions. Because there are minor similarities we can find within cultures of our world and events. So they must be 100% if they're somewhat similar.
The Akaviri must really be Japanese in culture and tradition, because they have a Katana and therefor are 100% based off the Japanese Samurai.
Khajiit culture must be Romani, cause in Skyrim they remind us of gypsies.
I've noticed you've slowly creeped into slight little personal insults over the course of this debate, how cute.
Aye, I'll throw in a return insult always. Pointing it out is cute too, especially since you do the same. However, my overt insults aren't nearly as clever as the subtle ones I throw around.
That is what happens if you debate politics, don't take it too personal. Raijin and I have good insults for each other when debating the Civil War, but he's probably my favorite member on these forums.
