Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Lewsean]

The Republic was in crisis for years after Caesar died.. And if you knew your Roman history you would know he wouldn't have gotten anywhere without the backing of the Senate, he had NO public opposition. He wiped out debts, enlarged the Senate, built the Forum Iulium, revived the calendar, he was responsible for the regrowth of Italty, he stopped individuals from controlling the grainary, he abolished the tax system, he created the police, he extended human rights granted only to Latin people throughout the whole of the Roman Empire, he basically gave a big fluff you to the wealthiest familys and cared for the poorer familys.. Without Caesar you could kiss goodbye to the Roman Empire, which is exactly what the rich nobles of the Republic wanted, Caesar cared more for the people than polticians, which ultimately led to his assassination. I adore Roman History, and I will gladly argue any single point you make

No need, wouldn't want you to throw a tantrum again. Having visited Rome 2 times already (you MUST visit it at least once in your life by the way, I'm serious, wonderful place) please forgive me when I have more trust in those people who work in the museums there.

Well unfortunately what they told you was wrong.

 

[Lewsean]

Besides it doesn't matter, Ulfric attacked and makes Balgruuf devoutly allied to the Imperials. You Stormcloaks and your "Tullius lied! The Imperials were unfair and acted devious!"

Fair? This is war, soldier. War's about winning, not being fair to the enemy. - General Tullius

A devout ally, really? He uses Imperial soldiers so they die before his own men haha, he has a shrine to Talos right outside Dragonsreach and allows Heimskr to preach all day. He really doesn't care about the Empire, his concern is Whiterun.

 

[Raijin]

Thirty years ago the Empire was weak and unprepared. The Empire has been building up their forces and preparing for the second conflict. The only reason Tullius isn't getting the reinforcements he's requested is Titus II won't send them. Tullius as a General knows there are enough soldiers in Cyrodiil for him to crush the rebellion, he wouldn't be requesting them otherwise.

The Aldmeri Dominion can see the Empire is getting close to being ready, the Imperials had a six year head start while the Aldmeri were fighting in Hammerfell. The Thalmor are trying to distract the Empire with the Stormcloak rebellion, to weaken them and turn their attention to other problems.

For all their boasting, the Thalmor were desperate enough to kidnap a Skaal smith to make them weapons, and later on even buy weapons off the player on Solstheim.

I find it hard to believe that the Empire did a complete 180 on their power and strength in such a short duration of time. This further proves that this civil war is a total joke. Titus Mede II refusing to send more troops to Tullius in Skyrim to deal with the Stormcloak Rebellion. What kind of a game is the Emperor trying to play anyways? You sent a General over to a country to take care of a rebellion problem yet he doesn't want to send Tullius the resources that he needs to take care of it. If what you said is true that the Empire has "enough soldiers in Cyrodiil for him to crush the rebellion" then shame on Titus Mede II. Shame on him. For that reason alone I feel bad for Tullius for having an incompetent ruler and leader.

You're reading too much at what is taking place in Solstheim. The Thalmor are there to find new materials (which they did) that will better their armies by improving their armor and weapons. The Legion would of done the same thing if they found out about this deposit.

His Generals warned him of Military weakness, Titus II rejecting the ultimatum was good. The Empire would have destroyed itself with Civil Wars everywhere. Not to mention the Thalmor didn't intend to destroy the Empire until they found out it was weaker than they believed. Your argument here is pointless, your whole "I would support the Empire had Titus II agreed to the Ultimatum" you sometimes bring up is hard to believe.

Lets just say Titus II agreed to the Ultimatum. Civil War breaks out in Cyrodiil, High Rock, Skyrim and Hammerfell is attacked. The Aldmeri invade Hammerfell, they overrun the province. The Redguards put up very little resistance, it was actually the Legions that halted their advance. Take away the Legions, they're not stopping the Aldmeri. The Empire is now dealing with uprisings, the Legions are trying to control the people. Even Legions would probably fight other Legions.

Then the Thalmor turn towards the Empire, their spies report the Empire is far weaker than they estimated. Even moreso being divided, and infighting.

So I ask you Raijin when you bring up this argument, why the fl*ff would the Aldmeri suddenly leave the Empire alone? They going to do a complete change of character? Go against everything we know about them?

"The Empire is weaker than we thought, they're falling apart with infighting... Well we'll just leave them be, cause we're nice." - Thalmor.

Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year. Titus II knew that there would be no better time to negotiate peace, and late in 4E 175 the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion signed the White-Gold Concordat, ending the Great War. - The Great War (book)

I'm not sure how you would think by what Titus Mede II did when he rejected the ultimatum was in the right. In fact according to the Lore indicates that his decision caused catastrophic damage within the Empire.

And yes I will always stick by what I originally said. I would of supported the Empire had Titus Mede II knew his limitation by realizing that he was not in the position to reject the ultimatum after his Generals warned him. Ulfric would have a weak case if he would of rebel against the Empire.

 

[DrunkenMage]

A devout ally, really?

"Mutual advantage! Any fool can see that. For centuries, we have benefited from the Empire's protection, and prosperous trade with the south. In exchange, the people of Cyrodiil sleep peacefully, knowing their northern border is guarded by the fiercest warriors in all Tamriel." - Balgruuf after Imperial Victory, Battle for Whiterun

He uses Imperial soldiers so they die before his own men haha

His guards fight alongside the Legionaries... Dialogue also suggests that his guards are being redeployed to fight the Stormcloaks under the Legion's command.

he has a shrine to Talos right outside Dragonsreach and allows Heimskr to preach all day.

Shrine remains even under Imperial Victory, Legion barely enforces the Talos Ban. Only Heimskr goes to prison for breaking the law, as punishment and safety from Thalmor agents.

Balgruuf worships Talos, he just keeps it to himself. It isn't a hard thing to do. The "True Nords" that Stormcloak supporters go on about in this thread, they actually made fun of the Imperials always going into the Chapel of Talos. Saying that is why they're so uptight.

He really doesn't care about the Empire, his concern is Whiterun.

His concern should be Whiterun, he doesn't need to care about the Empire. His loyalty is firmly established during the rebellion, the Empire doesn't ask people to care or love them.

Balgruuf is a Jarl, his first duty is to the people under his charge.

 

[Lewsean]

"Mutual advantage! Any fool can see that. For centuries, we have benefited from the Empire's protection, and prosperous trade with the south. In exchange, the people of Cyrodiil sleep peacefully, knowing their northern border is guarded by the fiercest warriors in all Tamriel." - Balgruuf after Imperial Victory, Battle for Whiterun

A devout ally isn't in it for the mutual advantage.

His guards fight alongside the Legionaries... Dialogue also suggests that his guards are being redeployed to fight the Stormcloaks under the Legion's command.

Proventus: "And what harm is there in letting a few legionnaires die in place of your own men?"
Balgruuf: "It seems cowardly."
Irileth: "Was it cowardly then to accept the White-Gold Concordat?"
Balgruuf: "This again?! That was different. Was I given a chance to object to the terms of the treaty? No. The Jarls weren't asked. We were told. And we had to like it."
Proventus: "The chests of gold didn't hurt."

Shrine remains even under Imperial Victory, Legion barely enforces the Talos Ban. Only Heimskr goes to prison for breaking the law, as punishment and safety from Thalmor agents.

Balgruuf worships Talos, he just keeps it to himself. It isn't a hard thing to do. The "True Nords" that Stormcloak supporters go on about in this thread, they actually made fun of the Imperials always going into the Chapel of Talos. Saying that is why they're so uptight.

Yes they do enforce it.. Arresting him to save him, lmao. You enforce it to keep your peace with the Thalmor.

His concern should be Whiterun, he doesn't need to care about the Empire. His loyalty is firmly established during the rebellion, the Empire doesn't ask people to care or love them.

Balgruuf is a Jarl, his first duty is to the people under his charge.

No they don't care if people like them, they only care that they obey. Tyranny.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I find it hard to believe that the Empire did a complete 180 on their power and strength in such a short duration of time. This further proves that this civil war is a total joke.

Twenty six years preparing, six years head start over the Thalmor. They won't have the largest Military in history, but you'll have veterans of the Great War training the recruits. Officers studying Aldmeri tactics, the captured documents of their battle strategies.

The Civil War is a total joke, we should be focusing on the Aldmeri Dominiuon. Not dealing with Ulfric's power struggle. "To free Skyrim and attack the Aldmeri Dominion" they going to pull a fully trained army, well equipped with enough supplies for a long campaign in a foreign land in a few short years or months?

You cut off our supplies from Skyrim and High Rock, just to spend those supplies in fielding an army that probably won't be ready in time?

Titus Mede II refusing to send more troops to Tullius in Skyrim to deal with the Stormcloak Rebellion. What kind of a game is the Emperor trying to play anyways? You sent a General over to a country to take care of a rebellion problem yet he doesn't want to send Tullius the resources that he needs to take care of it. If what you said is true that the Empire has "enough soldiers in Cyrodiil for him to crush the rebellion" then shame on Titus Mede II. Shame on him. For that reason alone I feel bad for Tullius for having an incompetent ruler and leader.

Pale Pass is also blocked stopping reinforcements. Titus II is playing it safe, he didn't want to directly be involved. Tullius had it well under control prior to Alduin crashing the party, he very nearly ended the rebellion.

Pale Pass is being cleared and an entire new Legionary force is forming up in Cyrodiil to march into Skyrim. Titus II dies and now nothing will stop a counter attack. Unless the Great War starts up again.

You're reading too much at what is taking place in Solstheim. The Thalmor are there to find new materials (which they did) that will better their armies by improving their armor and weapons. The Legion would of done the same thing if they found out about this deposit.

Why would they? The Empire has known about this material for an Era. Steel shortsword kills just the same as anything. Empire relies on mass production and high training.

Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year. Titus II knew that there would be no better time to negotiate peace, and late in 4E 175 the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion signed the White-Gold Concordat, ending the Great War. - The Great War (book)

I'm not sure how you would think by what Titus Mede II did when he rejected the ultimatum was in the right. In fact according to the Lore indicates that his decision caused catastrophic damage within the Empire.

I'm all for lore being presented, but not when your argument is destroyed in the same source...

However, there is a great difference between agreeing to such terms under the mere threat of war, and agreeing to them at the end of a long and destructive war. No part of the Empire would have accepted these terms in 4E 171, dictated by the Thalmor at swords-point. Titus II would have faced civil war. By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price.

And yes I will always stick by what I originally said. I would of supported the Empire had Titus Mede II knew his limitation by realizing that he was not in the position to reject the ultimatum after his Generals warned him. Ulfric would have a weak case if he would of rebel against the Empire.

If Ulfric left the Greybeards then he would probably be Rebel Leader #5690

We both know you would be in this thread going "THE EMPIRE ROLLED OVER WITHOUT A FIGHT, BENT THEIR KNEE TO THE THALMOR!!! DEY AREN'T EVEN RULED BY SEPTIMS ANYMORE"

You slam Titus II agreeing to the White-Gold Concordat and rejecting the Ultimatum. You argue he bent his knee and is bad, yet say you would support him if he bent his knee. You contradicting bastard, think logically.

 

[Ivory]

This is a bit off topic atm, but I thought I'd bring this up real quickly for the whole "Oh they are born with the talent they are automatically good and this or this because of their race." argument awhile back. This is a soldier in the Bosmer King's Army btw.

 

[DrunkenMage]

A devout ally isn't in it for the mutual advantage.

He wants Ulfric dead, and becomes a pretty big Imperial supporter. He's devout enough.

Proventus: "And what harm is there in letting a few legionnaires die in place of your own men?"
Balgruuf: "It seems cowardly."
Irileth: "Was it cowardly then to accept the White-Gold Concordat?"
Balgruuf: "This again?! That was different. Was I given a chance to object to the terms of the treaty? No. The Jarls weren't asked. We were told. And we had to like it."
Proventus: "The chests of gold didn't hurt."

Yet his guards still fight and die next to Legionaries. Accepting help to defend his people, he was able to swallow his pride. Not an easy thing, especially in a culture of honor.

Yes they do enforce it.. Arresting him to save him, lmao. You enforce it to keep your peace with the Thalmor.

That or shutting him up. If Heimskr is truly the chosen of Talos as he claims... Talos is fl*ffed.

Yes, to keep the peace. Which won't last long anyway, Legion makes it very clear on that.

No they don't care if people like them, they only care that they obey. Tyranny.

"Heh. Ulfric's put me in charge of keeping an eye on the new Jarls. You know, make sure they're generally following orders." - Galmar

"We will do whatever I decide is in the best interests of Skyrim. Are we clear?" - Ulfric Stormcloak

Tyranny.

 

[DrunkenMage]

This is a bit off topic atm, but I thought I'd bring this up real quickly for the whole "Oh they are born with the talent they are automatically good and this or this because of their race." argument awhile back. This is a soldier in the Bosmer King's Army btw.View attachment 35481

Stormcloaks, getting proven wrong by in-game dialogue and lore since the Second Era.

 

[Lewsean]

Yet his guards still fight and die next to Legionaries. Accepting help to defend his people, he was able to swallow his pride. Not an easy thing, especially in a culture of honor

In game dialogue bro, your favourite source is proving me right.

That or shutting him up. If Heimskr is truly the chosen of Talos as he claims... Talos is fl*ffed.

Yes, to keep the peace. Which won't last long anyway, Legion makes it very clear on that.

Won't last long? It's been 30 years, and they'd rather conduct a civil war than upset the Thalmor, that to me proves you're a way off doing anything. Actions speak louder than words, and words is all you've got.

"Heh. Ulfric's put me in charge of keeping an eye on the new Jarls. You know, make sure they're generally following orders." - Galmar

"We will do whatever I decide is in the best interests of Skyrim. Are we clear?" - Ulfric Stormcloak

Tyranny.

How do you put keeping an eye on the Jarls and making sure they follow orders in the same bracket as arresting/kidnapping/enforcing the murder of your own citizens? A Tyrant is cruel and opressive towards their people, not a person who makes sure their subordinates are following orders lol..

 

[Rimfaxe96]

The Civil War is a total joke, we should be focusing on the Aldmeri Dominiuon. Not dealing with Ulfric's power struggle. "To free Skyrim and attack the Aldmeri Dominion" they going to pull a fully trained army, well equipped with enough supplies for a long campaign in a foreign land in a few short years or months?

Army is a pretty strong word for the Stormcloaks, let's keep it at militia. There was a line of dialogue somewhere hinting that most of those Stormcloaks have little more than minor fighting abilities and experiences, something along like that they're "just" farmers etc. Forgot where it was though. At least it's good to see that Ulfric won't hesitate to sacrifice it all for his ego;
"But, I'll also be training men and women for their new armies." - Galmar
Sounds like forced recruiting of civilians for me. Have to get these men and women from somewhere, you know.

And they don't have a few years left anymore. I also doubt it's a few months.
When asked about the WGC, Igmund gives a very interesting answer; "For now, perhaps. But I've heard disturbing rumors that they're marshalling their strength. I suspect the treaty that ended the war was just a tactic to buy time so the Thalmor can rebuild their armies."

If they're really collecting themselves already, they're weeks away, at best (it takes a while for a rumor to cross from the borders of the Dominion into Skyrim).

 

[DrunkenMage]

In game dialogue bro, your favourite source is proving me right.

What we see + in game dialogue is proving me right. Balgruuf doesn't simply allow Legionaries to die because he's hiding behind them, his men fight alongside the Legion and are even redeployed to fight the Stormcloaks.

Won't last long? It's been 30 years, and they'd rather conduct a civil war than upset the Thalmor, that to me proves you're a way off doing anything. Actions speak louder than words, and words is all you've got.

Thirty years closer to taking the fight to the Aldmeri Dominion, everything we're told from both the Thalmor and Legion is that a second war is very close. You keep saying "They'd rather conduct a civil war" which is just plain wrong, the Legion makes it clear they didn't want to get tied down in this. They feel the Thalmor are behind the Stormcloaks. The Stormcloak Rebellion is just a distraction and trying to end it has absolutely nothing to do with not trying to upset the Thalmor.

Ulfric is the one who is using the Stormcloaks to try become High King. He's also the one who started the Civil War. If the Empire didn't try crush a rebellion they view as a threat, that is trying to break apart the Empire. They wouldn't be much of an Empire.

How do you put keeping an eye on the Jarls and making sure they follow orders in the same bracket as arresting/kidnapping/enforcing the murder of your own citizens? A Tyrant is cruel and opressive towards their people, not a person who makes sure their subordinates are following orders lol..

You were the one saying caring that people obey is tyranny. The Talos Ban, like it or not is currently law. Those citizens know the risks, they've known it for many years. Tyrant is cruel and oppressive, you mean how the Argonians and Dunmer feel about Ulfric?

"You have no idea. Did you know it was his decree that forbade the Argonians from living inside the city walls? I hope in his next life, he's reborn as an Argonian forced to live in a slum because of some bigoted Nord dictator. I'm joking, of course, but I'm a lot happier seeing the Empire running things in Windhelm."

If the Stormcloaks had learned to shut up and follow the law, which was barely enforced so they could still have little shrines in their house or Talos amulets hidden on their person. The Empire would probably be that much closer to dealing with the Aldmeri Dominion and removing the White-Gold Concordat.

Army is a pretty strong word for the Stormcloaks, let's keep it at militia. There was a line of dialogue somewhere hinting that most of those Stormcloaks have little more than minor fighting abilities and experiences, something along like that they're "just" farmers etc. Forgot where it was though. At least it's good to see that Ulfric won't hesitate to sacrifice it all for his ego;
"But, I'll also be training men and women for their new armies." - Galmar
Sounds like forced recruiting of civilians for me. Have to get these men and women from somewhere, you know.

And they don't have a few years left anymore. I also doubt it's a few months.
When asked about the WGC, Igmund gives a very interesting answer; "For now, perhaps. But I've heard disturbing rumors that they're marshalling their strength. I suspect the treaty that ended the war was just a tactic to buy time so the Thalmor can rebuild their armies."

If they're really collecting themselves already, they're weeks away, at best (it takes a while for a rumor to cross from the borders of the Dominion into Skyrim).

Stormcloaks are just a really short term solution, with long term consequences.

I wouldn't put forced recruiting of civilians past them. "I swear, that Aeri and her men would make fine Stormcloak recruits. Pity we can't spare the lumber to conscript them." - Skald

 

[Ozan]

That being said, I think comparing Nords and their warlike nature can easily be compared with real events and nations. If you haven't noticed within the last 5000 years, people are assholes and like to wage war whenever they find a wrinkle in their undies.

It doesn't compare, the Nords are warlike by culture. Their Gods fought wars against the elven Gods. You can't really translate our world into theirs, because it isn't our world. Nirn isn't Earth. They may have Norse traits, but they're only slightly based on them.

That being said, I don't think I said anything about the Empire making the call as to who will be High Queen. Infact, I'm pretty sure I mentioned the Jarls who support her. Are you saying the Jarls (assuming Ulfric and Tullius are dead) won't support her simply because they've been backing the empire this entire time? Are you saying she's a bad monarch? My, what would Tullius say... assuming he was dead but somehow still alive to speak?

The Jarls make no mention in supporting Elisif, they support the Empire. Same way certain Stormcloak Jarls support the Stormcloaks, not Ulfric himself. Elisif has much to learn, but she isn't leading Skyrim into war, or commanding soldiers. So even if she were to be High Queen she is fairly harmless, and she does care about her people.

That being said, assuming Ulfric was dead as well and nobody was around to lead the Stormcloaks, you said yourself that any Jarl had the right to claim the position of High King. So, why not claim that position in Ulfric's name?

Because you can't simply claim the throne in the name of a dead man, the Nords elect their Kings from the living. The claim that "Well I'll stand in for Ulfric, even though he's dead" wouldn't be valid. A Jarl can't claim another's deeds as his own. Should claim it in Ysgramor's name while you're at it.

They are Nords, afterall, a proud folk who tends to be warlike and stubborn. And even when Ulfric dies in game, the Stormcloaks are still around. So long as you have a group of people looking for a common goal, someone will lead them. For example, Adolf Hitler post WWI.

The Stormcloaks are still around, but without Ulfric's charisma and passion. They're not going to stay out in the wilderness, they're normal citizens. Most would return to their homes. But also the Legion plans on hunting them down if they don't lay down their weapons.

And considering all the Jarls had been replaced by Imperial puppets, then common birth would be even less an issue. In fact, it's probably safer if Ulfric lived and the war just lingered on. Stormcloaks would simply become akin to a terrorist group so common today. The IRA lasted for fluffing ever, how long do you think the Stormcloaks would last?

They're not all 'Imperial puppets' there are quite a few good Empire favored Jarls. What are you on about with common birth? Jarls selected on both sides aren't always from the Nobles.

Forsworn already take the terrorist group spot. The 'Stormcloaks' will last for awhile, the ideology won't simply die. Doesn't mean they'll be attacking villages and supply lines for years to come. There have been those with views similiar to the Stormcloaks in Skyrim for a thousand years.

Finally, lets address the second time they fought the Empire... How long were they a part of the Empire the first time round? How about now?

Over a hundred years the first time in the Third Empire. It doesn't matter how long they've been part of the Empire, they were part of the Cyrodilic Empire for 647 years.

There has been a lot of time given to help assimilate, sort of like how the tribes of Antiquity Britain (back when they were barbarians) fought the Romans to no avail. After the fall of Rome, they took a lot of their culture and ways with them. Infact, I'm sure if Rome didn't fall but they were given a chance to stay with the Roman Empire, a lot of Briton folk would have wanted to remain Roman citizens. Of course, I'm sure more than a few would want to govern themselves too.

Nords have been part of an Imperial Empire in total for 1281 years. They're still pretty Nordic, besides certain religious beliefs.

Thats human nature. Skyrim is the home of the Humans. The more you know.

Skyrim is home to people who if they're not attacking elves, they're killing each other. The Nords just want to smash.

fluffing Quote Pyramids and Rebuttal Trees. ><

Tell you what. Let me start listing off all the warlike cultures. You know, like the Huns, the Mongols, the Japanese, the Vikings, the Spanish Empire, the Romans, the Greeks, the British, the Americans, the... you know, it may be easier to list the peace loving nations...

Dueling became a thing because murdering someone in a field is a lot easier than just talking out the problem with someone. You'd be surprised how well Nords WOULD compare to cultures and lives in our world. After all, they're heavily based off western views of Norse folk. Some cultures aren't that far off to Skyrim's. You can deny it all you want, say its a video game and we shouldn't but at the end of the day we peoples who've been around for ages that makes the "I WANT TO SMASH!!!" attitude of the Nord look fluffing tame by comparison.

Deal with it.

 

[LegateFasendil]

That being said, I think comparing Nords and their warlike nature can easily be compared with real events and nations. If you haven't noticed within the last 5000 years, people are assholes and like to wage war whenever they find a wrinkle in their undies.

It doesn't compare, the Nords are warlike by culture. Their Gods fought wars against the elven Gods. You can't really translate our world into theirs, because it isn't our world. Nirn isn't Earth. They may have Norse traits, but they're only slightly based on them.

That being said, I don't think I said anything about the Empire making the call as to who will be High Queen. Infact, I'm pretty sure I mentioned the Jarls who support her. Are you saying the Jarls (assuming Ulfric and Tullius are dead) won't support her simply because they've been backing the empire this entire time? Are you saying she's a bad monarch? My, what would Tullius say... assuming he was dead but somehow still alive to speak?

The Jarls make no mention in supporting Elisif, they support the Empire. Same way certain Stormcloak Jarls support the Stormcloaks, not Ulfric himself. Elisif has much to learn, but she isn't leading Skyrim into war, or commanding soldiers. So even if she were to be High Queen she is fairly harmless, and she does care about her people.

That being said, assuming Ulfric was dead as well and nobody was around to lead the Stormcloaks, you said yourself that any Jarl had the right to claim the position of High King. So, why not claim that position in Ulfric's name?

Because you can't simply claim the throne in the name of a dead man, the Nords elect their Kings from the living. The claim that "Well I'll stand in for Ulfric, even though he's dead" wouldn't be valid. A Jarl can't claim another's deeds as his own. Should claim it in Ysgramor's name while you're at it.

They are Nords, afterall, a proud folk who tends to be warlike and stubborn. And even when Ulfric dies in game, the Stormcloaks are still around. So long as you have a group of people looking for a common goal, someone will lead them. For example, Adolf Hitler post WWI.

The Stormcloaks are still around, but without Ulfric's charisma and passion. They're not going to stay out in the wilderness, they're normal citizens. Most would return to their homes. But also the Legion plans on hunting them down if they don't lay down their weapons.

And considering all the Jarls had been replaced by Imperial puppets, then common birth would be even less an issue. In fact, it's probably safer if Ulfric lived and the war just lingered on. Stormcloaks would simply become akin to a terrorist group so common today. The IRA lasted for fluffing ever, how long do you think the Stormcloaks would last?

They're not all 'Imperial puppets' there are quite a few good Empire favored Jarls. What are you on about with common birth? Jarls selected on both sides aren't always from the Nobles.

Forsworn already take the terrorist group spot. The 'Stormcloaks' will last for awhile, the ideology won't simply die. Doesn't mean they'll be attacking villages and supply lines for years to come. There have been those with views similiar to the Stormcloaks in Skyrim for a thousand years.

Finally, lets address the second time they fought the Empire... How long were they a part of the Empire the first time round? How about now?

Over a hundred years the first time in the Third Empire. It doesn't matter how long they've been part of the Empire, they were part of the Cyrodilic Empire for 647 years.

There has been a lot of time given to help assimilate, sort of like how the tribes of Antiquity Britain (back when they were barbarians) fought the Romans to no avail. After the fall of Rome, they took a lot of their culture and ways with them. Infact, I'm sure if Rome didn't fall but they were given a chance to stay with the Roman Empire, a lot of Briton folk would have wanted to remain Roman citizens. Of course, I'm sure more than a few would want to govern themselves too.

Nords have been part of an Imperial Empire in total for 1281 years. They're still pretty Nordic, besides certain religious beliefs.

Thats human nature. Skyrim is the home of the Humans. The more you know.

Skyrim is home to people who if they're not attacking elves, they're killing each other. The Nords just want to smash.

fluffing Quote Pyramids and Rebuttal Trees. ><

Tell you what. Let me start listing off all the warlike cultures. You know, like the Huns, the Mongols, the Japanese, the Vikings, the Spanish Empire, the Romans, the Greeks, the British, the Americans, the... you know, it may be easier to list the peace loving nations...

Dueling became a thing because murdering someone in a field is a lot easier than just talking out the problem with someone. You'd be surprised how well Nords WOULD compare to cultures and lives in our world. After all, they're heavily based off western views of Norse folk. Some cultures aren't that far off to Skyrim's. You can deny it all you want, say its a video game and we shouldn't but at the end of the day we peoples who've been around for ages that makes the "I WANT TO SMASH!!!" attitude of the Nord look fluffing tame by comparison.

Deal with it.

I dunno man, this world is really messed up. Been reading up on some of Mage's content and he's been on fire recently. Not sure how one can post while on fire but I digress.

He's got some good points though ~ Ulfric will fight a boy before going up against a 'True Nord' !?!! WTF is that all about. Not to mention how Ulfric played hide and send my entire fl*ffing army to answer a personal challenge from Jarl Balstein.

Then there's what he was saying about Redguard Factions earlier, the part where all parties were united in leaving the Empire to handle their pl*ps themselves.

I actually, agree 100% with the Stormcloak's philosophy, it's clean, simple and pragmatic. They're right in the respect that's how you free yourself from Tyranny. However... The problem with their cause, is charismatic ideology. Which will corrupt the philosophy. Anyone can have a Stormcloak movement, *including the Empire*.

TMII is about to die and that will set an example as a warning to other leaders. So will the Civil War. Thing is... if I don't want TMII telling me what not to worship, having the Thalmor all up in my business, what in hell makes you think I would surrender my liberty to Ulfric and the Church of Talos, pushing me around for not supporting them or because I don't fit in?

Stormcloaks have a Nationalistic, Charismatic cause after all right? With bias shown to Nords, esp those who support Ulfric. Which separately Nationalism and Charismatic whatever is not entirely bad however theirs is not solely based on God or Country or Freedom. There's the problem.

Just look at Windhelm or the Old Holds, Stormcloak Holds... I don't think Talos wants Skyrim ending up like that. If everyone is miserable and hateful and poor and bitter and oppressed and judgmental and pretentious towards their neighbors, what difference does worshipping Talos make? They'll just find someone else to blame, something else to b*tch about.

And at least with the Empire, you still have a Noble goal and something to aspire to. You have a certain kind of faith that's stronger than the hate that brings division. And that faith was really what the Thalmor wanted to destroy, yet they were looking in the wrong place. The Stormcloaks are the opposite of this faith because they war for lack of faith. TMII is the savior of the Empire because he and those resp for the WGC are crucified in the Empire's place.

 

[Ozan]

It doesn't compare, the Nords are warlike by culture. Their Gods fought wars against the elven Gods. You can't really translate our world into theirs, because it isn't our world. Nirn isn't Earth. They may have Norse traits, but they're only slightly based on them.

The Jarls make no mention in supporting Elisif, they support the Empire. Same way certain Stormcloak Jarls support the Stormcloaks, not Ulfric himself. Elisif has much to learn, but she isn't leading Skyrim into war, or commanding soldiers. So even if she were to be High Queen she is fairly harmless, and she does care about her people.

Because you can't simply claim the throne in the name of a dead man, the Nords elect their Kings from the living. The claim that "Well I'll stand in for Ulfric, even though he's dead" wouldn't be valid. A Jarl can't claim another's deeds as his own. Should claim it in Ysgramor's name while you're at it.

The Stormcloaks are still around, but without Ulfric's charisma and passion. They're not going to stay out in the wilderness, they're normal citizens. Most would return to their homes. But also the Legion plans on hunting them down if they don't lay down their weapons.

They're not all 'Imperial puppets' there are quite a few good Empire favored Jarls. What are you on about with common birth? Jarls selected on both sides aren't always from the Nobles.

Forsworn already take the terrorist group spot. The 'Stormcloaks' will last for awhile, the ideology won't simply die. Doesn't mean they'll be attacking villages and supply lines for years to come. There have been those with views similiar to the Stormcloaks in Skyrim for a thousand years.

Over a hundred years the first time in the Third Empire. It doesn't matter how long they've been part of the Empire, they were part of the Cyrodilic Empire for 647 years.

Nords have been part of an Imperial Empire in total for 1281 years. They're still pretty Nordic, besides certain religious beliefs.

Skyrim is home to people who if they're not attacking elves, they're killing each other. The Nords just want to smash.

fluffing Quote Pyramids and Rebuttal Trees. ><

Tell you what. Let me start listing off all the warlike cultures. You know, like the Huns, the Mongols, the Japanese, the Vikings, the Spanish Empire, the Romans, the Greeks, the British, the Americans, the... you know, it may be easier to list the peace loving nations...

Dueling became a thing because murdering someone in a field is a lot easier than just talking out the problem with someone. You'd be surprised how well Nords WOULD compare to cultures and lives in our world. After all, they're heavily based off western views of Norse folk. Some cultures aren't that far off to Skyrim's. You can deny it all you want, say its a video game and we shouldn't but at the end of the day we peoples who've been around for ages that makes the "I WANT TO SMASH!!!" attitude of the Nord look fluffing tame by comparison.

Deal with it.

I dunno man, this world is really messed up. Been reading up on some of Mage's content and he's been on fire recently. Not sure how one can post while on fire but I digress.

He's got some good points though ~ Ulfric will fight a boy before going up against a 'True Nord' !?!! WTF is that all about. Not to mention how Ulfric played hide and send my entire fl*ffing army to answer a personal challenge from Jarl Balstein.

Then there's what he was saying about Redguard Factions earlier, the part where all parties were united in leaving the Empire to handle their pl*ps themselves.

I actually, agree 100% with the Stormcloak's philosophy, it's clean, simple and pragmatic. They're right in the respect that's how you free yourself from Tyranny. However... The problem with their cause, is charismatic ideology. Which will corrupt the philosophy. Anyone can have a Stormcloak movement, *including the Empire*.

TMII is about to die and that will set an example as a warning to other leaders. So will the Civil War. Thing is... if I don't want TMII telling me what not to worship, having the Thalmor all up in my business, what in hell makes you think I would surrender my liberty to Ulfric and the Church of Talos, pushing me around for not supporting them or because I don't fit in?

Stormcloaks have a Nationalistic, Charismatic cause after all right? With bias shown to Nords, esp those who support Ulfric. Which separately Nationalism and Charismatic whatever is not entirely bad however theirs is not solely based on God or Country or Freedom. There's the problem.

Just look at Windhelm or the Old Holds, Stormcloak Holds... I don't think Talos wants Skyrim ending up like that. If everyone is miserable and hateful and poor and bitter and oppressed and judgmental and pretentious towards their neighbors, what difference does worshipping Talos make? They'll just find someone else to blame, something else to b*tch about.

And at least with the Empire, you still have a Noble goal and something to aspire to. You have a certain kind of faith that's stronger than the hate that brings division. And that faith was really what the Thalmor wanted to destroy, yet they were looking in the wrong place. The Stormcloaks are the opposite of this faith because they war for lack of faith. TMII is the savior of the Empire because he and those resp for the WGC are crucified in the Empire's place.

This world is messed up. But, its a world we can relate to. The Elder Scrolls has always been popular, but Skyrim is popular with folk who aren't necessarily RPG sorts of people. Something I appreciate most about the Elder Scrolls is that despite it being a fantasy adventure, it doesn't stray too far away from the realm of realism, staying well in sight. After all, every great fiction did have a nugget of truth.

That being said, I dislike Ulfric. However, here I am supporting the Stormcloaks. I used to roleplay on the forums (on posts that weren't really RP-able such as this) as a Khajiit, and despite not being allowed in Nord cities the Khajiit still rolled Stormcloak. I mean, yeah the racism of Ulfric is pretty bad, but want to know what? Khajiit caravans aren't allowed in Imperial held cities either, so neither side really fights for you if you're from Elsweyr.

Infact, there is a certain Jarl who openly says he knows Ulfric just wants the Throne, and despite this, the Jarl supports the Stormcloaks. Ulfric, as charming an ass as any bigot may be, isn't the reason why every Stormcloak fights. To oppose the Stormcloaks because of one man, even the man in charge, is a sign of biased fact to begin with. For example, not all Americans are warmongering hateful people. Their leaders may be, but not the person themselves. That can be said about the average German in Nazi Germany (especially Nazi Germany). Hitler forced the Army and Luftwaffe to use the Hitler salute rather than the traditional salute. The Navy, however, was able to Convince Hitler to let them maintain their traditional salute as the head of the Navy was not a Nazi nor ever became one and wanted to keep the politics and the branch separate.

The argument has been made that Skyrim doesn't have the resources to be a nation by itself, but Westminster said the same thing about Scotland this year concerning their 20 year oil supply really being a 120 year oil supply. Well, Ulfric isn't Hitler by any means. He is a racist, but he hasn't made any death camps yet. Skyrim has its own people and culture, rather different than the Cyrodiilic folk to the south. They have their own customs and ways, their own style of life. If you're willing to kill a Nord because they share Ulfric's beliefs of a free Skyrim, welcome to worship and live as they please, then who are you to say no?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Tell you what. Let me start listing off all the warlike cultures. You know, like the Huns, the Mongols, the Japanese, the Vikings, the Spanish Empire, the Romans, the Greeks, the British, the Americans, the... you know, it may be easier to list the peace loving nations...

Dueling became a thing because murdering someone in a field is a lot easier than just talking out the problem with someone. You'd be surprised how well Nords WOULD compare to cultures and lives in our world. After all, they're heavily based off western views of Norse folk. Some cultures aren't that far off to Skyrim's. You can deny it all you want, say its a video game and we shouldn't but at the end of the day we peoples who've been around for ages that makes the "I WANT TO SMASH!!!" attitude of the Nord look fluffing tame by comparison.

Deal with it.

Our world simply doesn't compare well into TES, even over on the UESP forums the rule of thumb is don't try make the comparison or use our world as an complete example. Tamriel is a dark place, filled with very few "Good guys" Nirn isn't Earth.

You can find a little comparison between our world and maybe certain cultures, but the line begins and ends cosmetic. Dueling for the Nords is a way for two warriors to prove personal strength, divine will, or truth of their cause over others. It also is a political method, being used even during a Moot to kill another candidate.

The Imperials and the Empire may look Roman, by the armor and names. But they're hardly set up like the Romans. They were slaves who revolted.

I'm not at all saying there aren't cultures within our world that have traits you can make certain comparisons with. But in TES they're unique. Besides, what exactly is the argument? Our world is worse? It doesn't really reflect into the debate about TES. I could argue that our world has had worse leadership than the Empire, doesn't really do anything to aid my side.

Khajiit caravans aren't allowed in Imperial held cities either, so neither side really fights for you if you're from Elsweyr.

You do realize some of the Khajiit in those caravans are unwelcome in Elsweyr too? The Khajiit Caravans are smugglers, who actually do sell Skooma and buy stolen goods. It isn't like the Nord Jarls are suddenly being super racist towards Khajiit.

Infact, there is a certain Jarl who openly says he knows Ulfric just wants the Throne, and despite this, the Jarl supports the Stormcloaks.

I'm no man's fool. I know Ulfric Stormcloak's selfish and power-hungry, but he's the devil I know. Does that put it plain enough for you? - Dengeir of Stuhn

I would say he's a Stormcloak simply because he knows Ulfric better than an Emperor down in Cyrodiil.

 

[Ozan]

Our world simply doesn't compare well into TES, even over on the UESP forums the rule of thumb is don't try make the comparison or use our world as an complete example. Tamriel is a dark place, filled with very few "Good guys" Nirn isn't Earth.

Well thank Talos that the UESP forums has that rule. Probably a smart rule, to be honest.

Pity you're not on the UESP forums. Simply because the autobahn in Germany exists doesn't mean you can go speeding in Mexico. There aren't many good guys on Earth, either. For every Gandhi there has been ten Ivan the Terribles. Comes with the territory, I'm sure.

That said, I can't help but think that it is more than Cosmetic... I mean, Sovngarde looks a hell of a lot like Valhalla to me. Bretons seem to be awesome chefs. The Imperial Legion tends to be an actual... you know. Legion. Its character development, I understand this. It begins as the roots, a primary idea to start and they'll develop afterwards. In Arena, you were supposed to just do arena combat as a GLADIATOR. The Imperial City being the psuedo-Rome.

That's where the Imperial Legion started off, I'm just noting how unfortunate of Bethesda to keep to true Roman format and have to have the Romans get wrecked by the Visigothic enemies at the gate, a people they were oppressing (Disclaimer: Nords sacking the Imperial City not yet happening... but soon.)

The reason I make a comparison with nations is because most nations tend to be lead by a single person. And human nature tends to carry on as it does, being an asshat or being a better person and doing the right thing instead of turning a profit in power, coin, or plunder. Unfortunately, most tend to be asshats and like to impose themselves. Human nature as a whole tends to repeat, and thus history also repeats. So, really, I'm not trying to compare our world to theirs... It's just a bit easier to believe that the game's characters aren't so black and white. I'm sure you would agree.

Dueling for the Nords is a way for two warriors to prove personal strength, divine will, or truth of their cause over others. It also is a political method, being used even during a Moot to kill another candidate.

Sounds like you're justifying Ulfric's killing of the High King. Poor boy, its bad enough its a part of Nordic Tradition.

The Imperials and the Empire may look Roman, by the armor and names. But they're hardly set up like the Romans. They were slaves who revolted.

No. Not this Empire. The Mede Dynasty stepped up and took the throne with an army, reminiscent of many Roman Emperors in our world. He's hardly a monarch, more of a barbaric warlord... As if Ulfric was the issue, amirite?

You do realize some of the Khajiit in those caravans are unwelcome in Elsweyr too? The Khajiit Caravans are smugglers, who actually do sell Skooma and buy stolen goods. It isn't like the Nord Jarls are suddenly being super racist towards Khajiit.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize the cities of Elsweyr had such close ties with the Holds of Skyrim and preemptively warned them of each caravan and who is a criminal and who to avoid. While we're at it, lets set up a "For Nords Only" drinking fountain in Markarth. Orcs and Reachmen have to drink somewhere else.

Simply because some Khajiit are criminals doesn't mean all Khajiit are. That's called prejudice and what they've done thus far is racially profile.

I'm no man's fool. I know Ulfric Stormcloak's selfish and power-hungry, but he's the devil I know. Does that put it plain enough for you?

- Dengeir of Stuhn

I would say he's a Stormcloak simply because he knows Ulfric better than an Emperor down in Cyrodiil.

I'd actually say you're right. Ulfric, you know where he stands. The Emperor? He could be fervent defender of the realm. Or he could be a Thalmor puppet. Switzerland is more proactive than he is. Then again, they had the balls to invade Liechtenstein in 2007 (by accident). So, maybe I'm using too badass an example. Silly me. :c

 

[Lewsean]

In game dialogue bro, your favourite source is proving me right.

What we see + in game dialogue is proving me right. Balgruuf doesn't simply allow Legionaries to die because he's hiding behind them, his men fight alongside the Legion and are even redeployed to fight the Stormcloaks.
[/quote]

Well, actually he does allow them to die whilst hiding behind them. What we see and the in-game dialogue proves Balgruuf invited the Legion to die in place of his own men, and seeing it happen in game proves it too

Thirty years closer to taking the fight to the Aldmeri Dominion, everything we're told from both the Thalmor and Legion is that a second war is very close. You keep saying "They'd rather conduct a civil war" which is just plain wrong, the Legion makes it clear they didn't want to get tied down in this. They feel the Thalmor are behind the Stormcloaks. The Stormcloak Rebellion is just a distraction and trying to end it has absolutely nothing to do with not trying to upset the Thalmor.

Ulfric is the one who is using the Stormcloaks to try become High King. He's also the one who started the Civil War. If the Empire didn't try crush a rebellion they view as a threat, that is trying to break apart the Empire. They wouldn't be much of an Empire.

Selling out your people in return for peace doesn't make you much of an Empire either. If your so close to fighting the Thalmor, then why waste the time fighting the Stormcloaks?

You were the one saying caring that people obey is tyranny. The Talos Ban, like it or not is currently law. Those citizens know the risks, they've known it for many years. Tyrant is cruel and oppressive, you mean how the Argonians and Dunmer feel about Ulfric?

"You have no idea. Did you know it was his decree that forbade the Argonians from living inside the city walls? I hope in his next life, he's reborn as an Argonian forced to live in a slum because of some bigoted Nord dictator. I'm joking, of course, but I'm a lot happier seeing the Empire running things in Windhelm."

If the Stormcloaks had learned to shut up and follow the law, which was barely enforced so they could still have little shrines in their house or Talos amulets hidden on their person. The Empire would probably be that much closer to dealing with the Aldmeri Dominion and removing the White-Gold Concordat.

No I didn't say caring that people obey is tyranny, arresting and allowing your own citizens to be kidnapped and murdered through a law signed with your enemies is tyranny. The Argonians and Dunmer aren't Ulfric's people. And I for one wouldn't want a bunch of Skooma addict thieves living inside my city walls when there's already a bunch of pompous supremist Dunmer who want everything for nothing. The Empire should learn to shut up and accept what happened to Torygg was legal, instead of butting in to plops they have no right to.

Stormcloaks are just a really short term solution, with long term consequences.

I wouldn't put forced recruiting of civilians past them. "I swear, that Aeri and her men would make fine Stormcloak recruits. Pity we can't spare the lumber to conscript them." - Skald

Like I've said before, the people demanded war from him, not the other way around.. He didn't force these farmers and shopkeepers to fight, they wanted too. No Nord can be forced to do something he doesn't want to do.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Well thank Talos that the UESP forums has that rule. Probably a smart rule, to be honest.

Pity you're not on the UESP forums. Simply because the autobahn in Germany exists doesn't mean you can go speeding in Mexico. There aren't many good guys on Earth, either. For every Gandhi there has been ten Ivan the Terribles. Comes with the territory, I'm sure.

Not an official rule, but more when discussing lore. Figured I should elaborate.

That said, I can't help but think that it is more than Cosmetic... I mean, Sovngarde looks a hell of a lot like Valhalla to me. Bretons seem to be awesome chefs. The Imperial Legion tends to be an actual... you know. Legion. Its character development, I understand this. It begins as the roots, a primary idea to start and they'll develop afterwards. In Arena, you were supposed to just do arena combat as a GLADIATOR. The Imperial City being the psuedo-Rome.

Obviously you do see certain traits, but our own history hardly applies. TES isn't following our own history.

That's where the Imperial Legion started off, I'm just noting how unfortunate of Bethesda to keep to true Roman format and have to have the Romans get wrecked by the Visigothic enemies at the gate, a people they were oppressing (Disclaimer: Nords sacking the Imperial City not yet happening... but soon.)

Technically the Nords did take the Imperial City, alongside Colovian forces during the Tiber Wars.

The reason I make a comparison with nations is because most nations tend to be lead by a single person. And human nature tends to carry on as it does, being an asshat or being a better person and doing the right thing instead of turning a profit in power, coin, or plunder. Unfortunately, most tend to be asshats and like to impose themselves. Human nature as a whole tends to repeat, and thus history also repeats. So, really, I'm not trying to compare our world to theirs... It's just a bit easier to believe that the game's characters aren't so black and white. I'm sure you would agree.

I do agree they're not black and white, but our own history isn't theirs. You could compare TES to the Matrix to be honest, especially with the stuff surrounding CHIM.

Sounds like you're justifying Ulfric's killing of the High King. Poor boy, its bad enough its a part of Nordic Tradition.

Not at all, but I do understand it is part of their tradition. I find Ulfric's actions, and those of his Stormcloaks to simply be akin to the strong rule over the weak. Warriors don't make the best Kings.

No. Not this Empire. The Mede Dynasty stepped up and took the throne with an army, reminiscent of many Roman Emperors in our world. He's hardly a monarch, more of a barbaric warlord... As if Ulfric was the issue, amirite?

Mede did the exact same thing Tiber Septim did. Titus Mede may have been a Colovian Warlord, but how many would have considered Talos to be a barbaric warlord. Titus was a good Emperor, he proved himself on the field of battle and in politics.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize the cities of Elsweyr had such close ties with the Holds of Skyrim and preemptively warned them of each caravan and who is a criminal and who to avoid. While we're at it, lets set up a "For Nords Only" drinking fountain in Markarth. Orcs and Reachmen have to drink somewhere else.

Simply because some Khajiit are criminals doesn't mean all Khajiit are. That's called prejudice and what they've done thus far is racially profile.

Except each Khajiit caravan sells Skooma, buys stolen goods and smuggles things. That isn't prejudice, and weren't we just saying everything isn't black and white? Why would the Khajiit be right and the Nord Jarls wrong?

Sure there may be some racial thing, but there is also evidence against the Khajiit caravans.

I'd actually say you're right. Ulfric, you know where he stands. The Emperor? He could be fervent defender of the realm. Or he could be a Thalmor puppet.

Except it is short sighted reasoning, and if something were to happen to Ulfric he loses all reason to support the other Stormcloak Jarls.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Well, actually he does allow them to die whilst hiding behind them. What we see and the in-game dialogue proves Balgruuf invited the Legion to die in place of his own men, and seeing it happen in game proves it too

Actually we see Whiterun Guards fighting alongside Legionaries during the Battle for Whiterun. Ulfric is attacking him with soldiers massed from three Holds. Balgruuf invited the Legion to protect his city from attack.

Selling out your people in return for peace doesn't make you much of an Empire either.

Sacrifices are made, as Ulfric says "There is no progress without sacrifice"

If your so close to fighting the Thalmor, then why waste the time fighting the Stormcloaks?

That is perhaps the most stupid thing one could argue. "Well dur if your close to fighting the Thalmor, why would you try destroy a rebellion who is anti-Imperial and the Thalmor are behind who also threaten to tear the Empire apart"

No I didn't say caring that people obey is tyranny

"No they don't care if people like them, they only care that they obey. Tyranny."

arresting and allowing your own citizens to be kidnapped and murdered through a law signed with your enemies is tyranny.

No, that is the cost of temporary peace. The cost it takes to rebuild and fight another day. People weren't getting kidnapped and murdered until Ulfric's "Sons of Skyrim".

The Argonians and Dunmer aren't Ulfric's people.

Then he'll be a very crap High King when nine other races call the place home. They are his people, they're under his charge.

And I for one wouldn't want a bunch of Skooma addict thieves living inside my city walls when there's already a bunch of pompous supremist Dunmer who want everything for nothing.

Skooma addict thieves, really? One Argonian with a skooma addiction = all of them? Yeah, true Stormcloak here.

The Empire should learn to shut up and accept what happened to Torygg was legal, instead of butting in to pl*** they have no right to.

Ulfric needs to get over his daddy issues in a better manner than throwing a fit to start a rebellion against Imperial rule.

"That's what started this whole war. The Empire couldn't ignore that. Once the jarls start killing each other, we're back to the bad old days."

Like I've said before, the people demanded war from him, not the other way around..

Then where were these people years ago? If the people demanded war, why weren't the Stormcloaks a larger force when they actually were going on about the Talos Ban prior to killing Torygg.

He didn't force these farmers and shopkeepers to fight, they wanted too.

Aye, many of them do want to fight. Helps when the Thalmor send them flocking to Ulfric's banner to keep the war going.

No Nord can be forced to do something he doesn't want to do.

No Nord? Or is this the Stormcloak delusional "True Nords" which is, as I've said another form of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

People are forced to do what they don't want to do all the time. It is called life's a bitch.