Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
Right, but think about it. They wouldn't lawfully know about it. They'd have to expose their spies. They have the intelligence, they just needed the excuse to "find out"
All they have to do is monitor it, right? If the guy is worshiping in secret that's an even better reason to arrest a him for it.


It's not counterproductive when it turns the Nords against the Empire.
But if that were the casee then it doesn't weaken the Empire. Don't you think the Nords would maybe think "The Thalmor weren't takeing people away before Ulfric caused a fuss, now they are. I'm not joining him" Thats just basic reasoning
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
lol, quote fail. sorry about that.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
All they have to do is monitor it, right? If the guy is worshiping in secret that's an even better reason to arrest a him for it.

Everything is a front. If they said "Hey, we illegally spied on your citizens, this one is a Talos Worshipper" it wouldn't be good at all for the Thalmor. They'd be seen as snakes, which they are, but they put up a front to their own people that they are "good".

The Thalmor in Markarth can't openly arrest someone who's just suspected to be a Talos worshipper. He needs evidence he asks you for.

But if that were the case then it doesn't weaken the Empire. Don't you think the Nords would maybe think "The Thalmor weren't taking people away before Ulfric caused a fuss, now they are. I'm not joining him" Thats just basic reasoning


The Stormcloaks don't look at the bigger picture. They're thinking "I have a right to openly worship. I want it now!"

They don't realize the damage they are going to do to themselves in the long run. Even yourself said so. Remember when I asked you back then about the Man with the Gun? Same concept.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
Everything is a front. If they said "Hey, we illegally spied on your citizens, this one is a Talos Worshipper" it wouldn't be good at all for the Thalmor. They'd be seen as snakes, which they are, but they put up a front to their own people that they are "good".
The Thalmor don't care about their image. They know goddamn well that theyre hated and a pariah and they use it to their advantage.

The Thalmor in Markarth can't openly arrest someone who's just suspected to be a Talos worshipper. He needs evidence he asks you for.
and you have to illegally sneak into his house pick his private chest and gather evidence for the Thalmor illegally. Clearly they don't care about upholding the law. If they could do this now they could have done it before.




The Stormcloaks don't look at the bigger picture. They're thinking "I have a right to openly worship. I want it now!"
Wait are you "generalizing" Are you saying all Stormcloaks don't look at the bigger picture? Are you saying all Stormcloaks are stupid and unable to think for themselves and are blinded by their own code. I'm certainly not I got in this war for my own reasons and in the long run we can handle it. Trust me. Oh and by the way I'm never going to let you live that down :D
 

Ivory

Let's Player
and you have to illegally sneak into his house pick his private chest and gather evidence for the Thalmor illegally. Clearly they don't care about upholding the law. If they could do this now they could have done it before.

There would be no evidence that they obtained it illegally. They can easily say that an upstanding citizen of the Empire turned him in. No one would know it was stolen, save for the owner and without evidence that it was stolen, they win. See how the politics of deception work?


Wait are you "generalizing" Are you saying all Stormcloaks don't look at the bigger picture? Are you saying all Stormcloaks are stupid and unable to think for themselves and are blinded by their own code. I'm certainly not I got in this war for my own reasons and in the long run we can handle it. Trust me. Oh and by the way I'm never going to let you live that down :D


Don't be so petty to think that I am generalizing the Stormcloaks. They fight because its what they want. They fight for the freedoms to openly worship their god, or they see it as underling to an underling if skyrim is ruled by the empire. It's not a generalization to talk about what the Stormcloaks fight for when it is in fact a big portion of what they do fight for.

You've admitted the Nords have no chance at espionage against the Thalmor. What makes you think one Province can handle Highrock, the Imperial Province, Valenwood, Elswyre, and the Isles? They have no trade, no supplies and there is hardly any fertile soil in skyrim to live off of. If it was just Summerset VS Skyrim, maybe yeah they might have a chance, but that many provinces?
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Its not impossible but don't you think it would be documented. He would be the only person in the entire Imperial Army who had this amazing power. Not to mention that he was taught that using the Thu'um in war would result in punishment from Kyne. Thats a good enough reason for a young intrepid person not to do something.

Why would it be documented? It isn't even documented he used the Thu'um during Markarth, you only find it out by speaking to people.

The near destruction of the Empire would be a little bit more important news than a Nord who was captured fairly early in the war.

He was taught using the Thu'um for personal gain and the glories of man was wrong. The Greybeards even use the Thu'um for defense. They're not pacifists.

How about a "stupid traitor" is that going to be somehow romanticized in the eyes of a traumatized, old mother.

It isn't supposed to be romanticized, also she wasn't accepting it and was blaming them. They cared enough to spare her the truth, but she was the one who kept it going.

Ahh yes. Amore. Way to pull a fast one. Okay so Jon Battle-Born might care (I kind of suspected him to anyway) but, who else? Just because they weren't a feuding clan doesn't mean they all liked each other.

Because they mention they were very close and good old friends. It doesn't matter if the clan leader or the youngest child doesn't care. The others think the feud is stupid or in the case of Idolaf still cared about his friend.

But that's what I like about them. Ethically they're the way to go. and you just proved that.

I think you're missing the point. There is of course thousands within the Empire who are honorable, and good. But the Empire as a whole doesn't think within terms of honor and glory.


The Stormcloaks aren't ethically better than the Empire, they have their bad side.

Would you be more effective? sure but at the cost of making your agents go through horrible tasks, re living their awful deeds all so the Empire can get their grubby little hands on a small piece of information which might or might not be important seems.. well.. awful and immoral. You just said recruitment involves murdering an old man.

Well that isn't really the case. Information is always important, no matter how small. They're not slitting your throat or torturing you for sweetroll recipes. It is about doing what it is needed to safeguard the Empire.

Assassinating an old man was Colin's test. What if that old man was working for the Thalmor? What if he himself was an assassin, perhaps he wanted to kill the Emperor, maybe he kills children or this and that etc.

The point is, appearances aren't always what they seem. What good are you to the Empire if you let your guard down because you think someone is innocent, only to get stabbed in the back.

they only really stand a chance on an actual battlefield where killin' Elves comes as naturally as drinking mead, and making love to Nord Women. ;). But in all seriousness none. You've convinced me. They don't have a snowballs chance in hell at performing real Espionage. I mean they can be sneaky and destroy enemy supply lines, as well as bribe officials and forge documents (like they did in the main questline) but against Thalmor and Imperial agents, heh, no chance.

If the Great War resumes right after the Civil War/Mede II's death, Stormcloaks have zero chance on the battlefield. They're struggling against the weakest the Empire has to offer, and the Aldmeri can match the proper Legions.

Besides the war is going to be a bitch, we'll probably get eaten by the Khajiit horses. Which are actually giant tigers who will die to defend their rider, who is often their sibling. We also have to watch out for all the various creatures within Valnwood, fight in the jungles of Elsweyr and get past one of the toughest naval fleets in Tamriel.

Tiber defeated the Aldmeri Dominion with a giant golem. Can you really blame the Empire wanting to regain strength and spend decades preparing for this bloody campaign?

As the Legate's say something like this: "Skyrim's days are darkening, and the Legion will soon be called into service like never before."
 

Vatonage

Joyeuse et Glorieuse
Besides the war is going to be a bitch, we'll probably get eaten by the Khajiit horses. Which are actually giant tigers who will die to defend their rider, who is often their sibling. We also have to watch out for all the various creatures within Valnwood, fight in the jungles of Elsweyr and get past one of the toughest naval fleets in Tamriel.

Holy crap they need to include the Khajiit mounts in TES:VI.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
57451.jpg
Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Wait are you "generalizing" Are you saying all Stormcloaks don't look at the bigger picture? Are you saying all Stormcloaks are stupid and unable to think for themselves and are blinded by their own code. I'm certainly not I got in this war for my own reasons and in the long run we can handle it. Trust me. Oh and by the way I'm never going to let you live that down :D

Don't be so petty to think that I am generalizing the Stormcloaks. They fight because its what they want. They fight for the freedoms to openly worship their god, or they see it as underling to an underling if skyrim is ruled by the empire. It's not a generalization to talk about what the Stormcloaks fight for when it is in fact a big portion of what they do fight for.

You've admitted the Nords have no chance at espionage against the Thalmor. What makes you think one Province can handle Highrock, the Imperial Province, Valenwood, Elswyre, and the Isles? They have no trade, no supplies and there is hardly any fertile soil in skyrim to live off of. If it was just Summerset VS Skyrim, maybe yeah they might have a chance, but that many provinces?


I don't think it's really that big of a deal to generalize the Stormcloaks or Imperials. There's a multitude of reasons people are fighting for each side, yet each cause has a general mission and specific goals to support it.

Espionage is not really how the Nords get down. It's not that they have no chance at it, it's just cloak and dagger is in the Thalmor's nature, not the Nords. There was a Stormcloak who failed to sabotage a mill in Solitude for example, yet in the Stormcloak play thru they capture Whiterun. It's like a difference of two squares.

As for Skyrim, Skyrim has fertile soil to live off of. There are farms in several Holds. Now, the climate is different and the land is rocky-hilly-covered in snow in some areas. So they can grow crops sure, just not like rolling seas of vegetables you get from down in Cyrodil. They can also fish/hunt... so some holds can be self-sustaining, but certainly not all of them and not without trade from the other holds whose agriculture is better off.

The Stormcloaks AND Ulfric's ideology is Skyrim 1st and Foremost. They don't need to worry about the other Provinces, they don't care about them except as much as they can use them ie.. Highrock. Which really, in a post-apocalyptic setting, Ulfric's methods are best for survival.

I've been "there" before so I know a little bit about how to turn around a desperate, sinking situation where the people who are supposed to have your back turn on you. Still, killing the Empire is the wrong way to go about this. Ulfric should have been more diplomatic or at least tried to be. Even if Skyrim were to secede, you have to try to maintain a relationship with your neighbors so you can get something out of it in the future. I think Ulfric is in the right in some ways... however that Xenophobic outlook isn't going to help anybody.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Personally I just disagree with you there, not really much to argue over there :p I don't even consider the 2.0 Blades to be the true blades at all. I'd have to go with Delphine is just another Astrid really. Or, the Greybeards are right and the Blades have never truly served the Dragonborn and only care about slaying Dragons.

You can disagree all you want but it could very well happen, and the evidence is right there when Delphine attempted to dominate the Dragonborn by giving him orders to kill Parth. The fact that she forgot that the Blades are the servants of the Dragonborn, and that it was his blood that activated the gate of Sky Haven Temple which means that the Temple actually belongs to the Dragonborn from the inheritance, and not the Blades.

While I may disagree with the Greybeards on certain things they are right about the Blades being brutes... and knows no bounds.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
There would be no evidence that they obtained it illegally. They can easily say that an upstanding citizen of the Empire turned him in. No one would know it was stolen, save for the owner and without evidence that it was stolen, they win. See how the politics of deception work?
I understand, but the random spy they used could just go to the authorities and say the "Thalmor made me illegally spy on a guy" Then What. Why wouldn't they use an asset or an agent like Drunken wholeheartedly believes they do all the time. I find it hard to believe if the Thalmor wanted or even cared about secrecy that they would go to some random Hero who walked up to him to deal with their Talos problems.


Don't be so petty to think that I am generalizing the Stormcloaks. They fight because its what they want. They fight for the freedoms to openly worship their god, or they see it as underling to an underling if skyrim is ruled by the empire. It's not a generalization to talk about what the Stormcloaks fight for when it is in fact a big portion of what they do fight for.

You've admitted the Nords have no chance at espionage against the Thalmor. What makes you think one Province can handle Highrock, the Imperial Province, Valenwood, Elswyre, and the Isles? They have no trade, no supplies and there is hardly any fertile soil in skyrim to live off of. If it was just Summerset VS Skyrim, maybe yeah they might have a chance, but that many provinces?

Oh, Im just rustling your jimmies like you guys always do to me, calm down.:)
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
57451.jpg
Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Wait are you "generalizing" Are you saying all Stormcloaks don't look at the bigger picture? Are you saying all Stormcloaks are stupid and unable to think for themselves and are blinded by their own code. I'm certainly not I got in this war for my own reasons and in the long run we can handle it. Trust me. Oh and by the way I'm never going to let you live that down :D

Don't be so petty to think that I am generalizing the Stormcloaks. They fight because its what they want. They fight for the freedoms to openly worship their god, or they see it as underling to an underling if skyrim is ruled by the empire. It's not a generalization to talk about what the Stormcloaks fight for when it is in fact a big portion of what they do fight for.

You've admitted the Nords have no chance at espionage against the Thalmor. What makes you think one Province can handle Highrock, the Imperial Province, Valenwood, Elswyre, and the Isles? They have no trade, no supplies and there is hardly any fertile soil in skyrim to live off of. If it was just Summerset VS Skyrim, maybe yeah they might have a chance, but that many provinces?


I don't think it's really that big of a deal to generalize the Stormcloaks or Imperials. There's a multitude of reasons people are fighting for each side, yet each cause has a general mission and specific goals to support it.

Espionage is not really how the Nords get down. It's not that they have no chance at it, it's just cloak and dagger is in the Thalmor's nature, not the Nords. There was a Stormcloak who failed to sabotage a mill in Solitude for example, yet in the Stormcloak play thru they capture Whiterun. It's like a difference of two squares.

As for Skyrim, Skyrim has fertile soil to live off of. There are farms in several Holds. Now, the climate is different and the land is rocky-hilly-covered in snow in some areas. So they can grow crops sure, just not like rolling seas of vegetables you get from down in Cyrodil. They can also fish/hunt... so some holds can be self-sustaining, but certainly not all of them and not without trade from the other holds whose agriculture is better off.

The Stormcloaks AND Ulfric's ideology is Skyrim 1st and Foremost. They don't need to worry about the other Provinces, they don't care about them except as much as they can use them ie.. Highrock. Which really, in a post-apocalyptic setting, Ulfric's methods are best for survival.

I've been "there" before so I know a little bit about how to turn around a desperate, sinking situation where the people who are supposed to have your back turn on you. Still, killing the Empire is the wrong way to go about this. Ulfric should have been more diplomatic or at least tried to be. Even if Skyrim were to secede, you have to try to maintain a relationship with your neighbors so you can get something out of it in the future. I think Ulfric is in the right in some ways... however that Xenophobic outlook isn't going to help anybody.

Just a joke he always gets on my case about generalizing so, I did it to him once:D
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Actually, Torygg's mage said he would have gladly supported Ulfric. Torygg looked up to Ulfric, and had he talked to him, odds are he would have agreed. Torygg worshiped Talos, secretly and it's shown when his wife confides in you to place Torygg's horn on the Talos Shrine far from solitude for her husband.

And again, the Empire had to keep the peace. They were not ready to start another war with the Dominion. Ulfric knew what he was demanding of the Markarth Jarl. He chose to openly demand to break the law that, at the time, was not even enforced.

Saying something and doing something are completely different. The fact that Torgg did nothing to even remotely suggest that he wanted to have Skyrim's complete independence while he was being showered with Imperial coin, and how Torgg and his wife Elisif were nothing more than party goers. The fact that Solitudes own pawnshop owner contradicts what His court mage said when she said " And between you and me? He wasn't even that good a king. All of those rambling speeches about the Empire this, and the Empire that.."
 

Ivory

Let's Player
The fact that Solitudes own pawnshop owner contradicts what His court mage said when she said " And between you and me? He wasn't even that good a king. All of those rambling speeches about the Empire this, and the Empire that.."


Because the pawn shop owner knows more than the woman who raised the king :rolleyes:
 

Ivory

Let's Player
I understand, but the random spy they used could just go to the authorities and say the "Thalmor made me illegally spy on a guy" Then What.


Then that Random spy would be hunted down and slaughtered by Thalmor Justiciars. What would the spy have to gain from back stabbing the Thalmor? They didn't force you to do anything. They ask you to commit a crime, and if the person chose to do so, I highly doubt that they would shoot themselves in the foot like that. There is no winning situation for you if you agreed to turn the man in. If anything, that would land you in Cidna Mine.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
The fact that Solitudes own pawnshop owner contradicts what His court mage said when she said " And between you and me? He wasn't even that good a king. All of those rambling speeches about the Empire this, and the Empire that.."


Because the pawn shop owner knows more than the woman who raised the king :rolleyes:

At least the pawnshop owners isn't bias. I take her word over the Torygg's vampire court mage wizard.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
At least the pawnshop owners isn't bias. I take her word over the Torygg's vampire court mage wizard.


Just because the Court Wizard raised Torygg doesn't make her Biased. She isn't exactly Elisif's biggest fan. It's very easy to see that the Mage is very fair, and quite well rounded overall. You cannot deny that she knows Torygg better than anyone.

Also, you saying that Torygg is "showered" with imperial coin, which by the way, you stormcloaks use too. Every Jarl got that Gold you love to throw at us. What did you all use it for? Oh, right, to fund it right back against the Empire. Every coin you use is because of the Empire. Good luck with making your own economy.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Just because the Court Wizard raised Torygg doesn't make her Biased. She isn't exactly Elisif's biggest fan. It's very easy to see that the Mage is very fair, and quite well rounded overall. You cannot deny that she knows Torygg better than anyone.

Also, you saying that Torygg is "showered" with imperial coin, which by the way, you stormcloaks use too. Every Jarl got that Gold you love to throw at us. What did you all use it for? Oh, right, to fund it right back against the Empire. Every coin you use is because of the Empire. Good luck with making your own economy.

Yeah it does. All motherly types who raised someone since they were kid becomes very bias towards them. It's only natural for this emotional occurrence to happen, and yes. We can both agree that she doesn't have very good relationship with Elisif. Perhaps she did something to him that caused him to change not for the better but for the worst? Perhaps Torygg had full intentions of cooperating with Ulfric in having Skyrim's full independence, but because Elisif was high in maintenance (Party goer), that Torygg made the financial decision to still accept the Empire's crates full of Imperial coin to support his wife.

No not all Jarls accepted the Empires coin and no. The Stormcloaks do not uses it either. Are you telling me that the Empire is financially supporting a militia that is working against them by sending them crates full of gold?
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
What if that old man was working for the Thalmor? What if he himself was an assassin, perhaps he wanted to kill the Emperor, maybe he kills children or this and that etc.

If I remember this right, there was also the option of him having made nasty jokes about her majesty's thighs.
 

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