Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Ivory]

Its not, I just... don't want to believe people would sell their souls like that, especially Nords, Imperials, and Redguards. Its unsettling to me. I mean wheres the proof that the Imperials will even have a chance in that cold war?

Allow me to give you a quote, one that makes you think and realize that both in real life and in this game world, things are darker than simple generalizations.

To put this in a different way, all our actions have a price. It is we who decide at what point we agree to be bought. As in the story of a conversation between a very sophisticated gentleman and a very respectable lady at a party. They are talking about prostitution, “Well,” says the gentleman, “just for the sake of our argument, suppose I offered you $1000—would you spend the night with me?” The lady, smiling coquettishly: “Who knows—I might very well!” The gentleman: “Now suppose I offer you $10 for the night?” The lady: “But what do you think I am?” The gentleman: “We’ve already established what you are. Now we’re just haggling over the price.”

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

The Dragonborn can be a better Blacksmith then every single one of these people, but cannot, at maxed out skill, craft Skyforge steel because he or she does NOT know how to craft this Steel. At All. Crafting Skyforge Steel has to be LEARNED.

The argument isn't about what they CAN do. Sure, maybe they CAN learn, but if Grey-Mane is DEAD, The ONLY one who knows how to craft this steel. How can someone learn a technique that is dead?

this is said during Diplomatic Immunity:
One guest will comment: "I'm not sure that it's news, but lately it seems like every blacksmith in Skyrim is out to prove that he's the equal of Eorlund Gray-Mane." The other guest will then reply: "It's not really a fair comparison, if you ask me. After all, Eorlund works the Skyforge. How is any smith going to compete with that?"
The Steel is all in the Forge not who works it. Sure Eorlund is an expert but so are a few others. If they were given the honor of working the Skyforge they could do the same

And show me, who takes over the Skyforge upon his Death? No one.

"Due to family tradition, Eorlund is the only one allowed to work the forge and will do so every day from 8am to 9pm, either forging or using the grindstone."
"I respect Eorlund, but he has the good fortune to work the Skyforge. Something about the fires... their steel just holds tighter."-Oengul War-Anvil
If the Gray Manes are ALL dead then this becomes null and void. If Eorlund is only dead there's no one in the family who can take his place. His wife is too old, Both of his sons are gone and his daughter is no smith.

Like when? If I don't respond, it's because you're being too thick, or so far up your own ass and calling me a pretentious ass that you ignore every single point I've made.

Obviously if I was being too thick ,as you already claim I am, you would still make some long winded response validating your point. Also, you din't respond when I said this.
"This might Explain Ulfrics intentions but not the hundreds of civilian Stormcloaks and four and a half Jarls who presumably feel the same way as Ulfric and feel that his intentions are justified."
Was it possible that I was right... or is tat too much to handle.
EDIT: when I said this: "But she saw the threat of the Thalmor, what they were doing to people, and realized it was the best descision to side with Ulfric. Like Ive said it may prove the ill intent of Ulfric (even though he clearly genuinely want's Talos reinstated) She Realized Ulfric had a valid point about the Thalmor and the Empire."

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Its not, I just... don't want to believe people would sell their souls like that, especially Nords, Imperials, and Redguards. Its unsettling to me. I mean wheres the proof that the Imperials will even have a chance in that cold war?

Allow me to give you a quote, one that makes you think and realize that both in real life and in this game world, things are darker than simple generalizations.

To put this in a different way, all our actions have a price. It is we who decide at what point we agree to be bought. As in the story of a conversation between a very sophisticated gentleman and a very respectable lady at a party. They are talking about prostitution, “Well,” says the gentleman, “just for the sake of our argument, suppose I offered you $1000—would you spend the night with me?” The lady, smiling coquettishly: “Who knows—I might very well!” The gentleman: “Now suppose I offer you $10 for the night?” The lady: “But what do you think I am?” The gentleman: “We’ve already established what you are. Now we’re just haggling over the price.”

Since the Imperials are SUPPOSED to have a hatred for the Dominion and would be committing treason its hard to believe so many would do this. since the Nords are SUPPOSED to be raised to hold Honor very high its hard to believe theyre making these decisions. Since the Redguards... do you see where I'm going with this?

 

[Ivory]

If the Gray Manes are ALL dead then this becomes null and void. If Eorlund is only dead there's no one in the family who can take his place. His wife is too old, Both of his sons are gone and his daughter is no smith.

If all the quotes that you said made my point void, why does his wife's claim that the forge will run cold isn't? Do you have evidence stating that anyone can make Skyforge Steel? All those quotes can equally be speculation as much as Grey-mane's wife no? Because Every time up until now you have ignored this. No one can craft it, and anyone who can learn cannot if the man dies.
And, if it is just the Forge itself, and you have to be a Master, the only one who clearly has the Skill are two, Gunmar who has no opinion of the War and serves the Dawnguard. (Though I suppose it can be speculated he favors the Empire when he says "By the Eight" or is just smarter than his rebellion brothers).
And the Dragonborn who if a Master Blacksmith, cannot help in the war with the Aldmeri if he's too busy forging for the soldiers.

"This might Explain Ulfrics intentions but not the hundreds of civilian Stormcloaks and four and a half Jarls who presumably feel the same way as Ulfric and feel that his intentions are justified."
Was it possible that I was right... or is tat too much to handle.

If you're going to act like me, make sure you can back it up. I did respond to this.

Four and a half? Who's the half? Besides, Law-Giver has said she knows the ill-intent Ulfric has, that he's not genuine. If the half is Balgruuf, He also does not trust Ulfric when he challenges him and Ulfric decides to be a coward and send his army instead of a fair duel.

Which you responded with

But she saw the threat of the Thalmor, what they were doing to people, and realized it was the best descision to side with Ulfric. Like Ive said it may prove the ill intent of Ulfric (even though he clearly genuinely want's Talos reinstated) She Realized Ulfric had a valid point about the Thalmor and the Empire.

I didn't respond because yes, you are correct. She does see how the Thalmor are a threat and decided to join Ulfric. You agree Ulfric has ill-intentions to take the throne, and I have no reason to argue that He genuinely wants Talos worship back. He's a Nord faithful to Talos, No one can deny that. My point was that she does NOT trust Ulfric. So if anything, you ignored my response.

Why would I argue with something I agree with? I don't start arguments with you because I "am being a pretentious ass" like you love to throw at me. When you are right, I move on. Do you want me to kiss your ass? That sounds pretentious, don't you think? Everyone here can agree that Ulfric wants Talos Worship back.

The issue is WHY Ulfric killed the High King and betrayed the Empire. For Power. And uses the Right to worship Talos to fuel his rebellion which is exactly what the Thalmor wanted. The Nords helped the Empire push back the Thalmor from the Imperial City with the Emperor leading them.

What makes you think the Thalmor wouldn't want to turn the Nords against them?

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

If all the quotes that you said made my point void, why does his wife's claim that the forge will run cold isn't? Do you have evidence stating that anyone can make Skyforge Steel?

do you have any quotes saying only Eorlund can?

And, if it is just the Forge itself, and you have to be a Master, the only one who clearly has the Skill are two, Gunmar who has no opinion of the War and serves the Dawnguard. (Though I suppose it can be speculated he favors the Empire when he says "By the Eight" or is just smarter than his rebellion brothers).

Y'know there are nine divines whether you wan't to believe it or not there are nine. Talos has an amulet that works, and if that's not enough you need to only look back to Oblivion where they needed the Blood of a god for the Amulet of Kings to work. They took Tiber's Armor which had his blood on it and it worked. If hes not a god how did this work?

And the Dragonborn who if a Master Blacksmith, cannot help in the war with the Aldmeri if he's too busy forging for the soldiers.

Of course, although I've had no formal training making Skyforge Steel and I can make Nord Hero items, which are just as effective, just fine. If the DB can whos to say some other Master Forgesmith can't

If you're going to act like me, make sure you can back it up. I did respond to this.

Sorry I made an edit about 4 minutes before you posted this.

I didn't respond because yes, you are correct. She does see how the Thalmor are a threat and decided to join Ulfric. You agree Ulfric has ill-intentions to take the throne, and I have no reason to argue that He genuinely wants Talos worship back. He's a Nord faithful to Talos, No one can deny that. My point was that she does NOT trust Ulfric. So if anything, you ignored my response.

Why would I argue with something I agree with? I don't start arguments with you because I "am being a pretentious ass" like you love to throw at me. When you are right, I move on. Do you want me to kiss your ass? That sounds pretentious, don't you think? Everyone here can agree that Ulfric wants Talos Worship back.

The issue is WHY Ulfric killed the High King and betrayed the Empire. For Power. And uses the Right to worship Talos to fuel his rebellion which is exactly what the Thalmor wanted. The Nords helped the Empire push back the Thalmor from the Imperial City with the Emperor leading them.

fair enough.

What makes you think the Thalmor wouldn't want to turn the Nords against them?

Nothing. The Thalmor want a war. although I think Ulfric has a good point about how the Empire abandoned us to serve their own purposes, which is fine as long as they can let us go. Torygg wouldn't do that.

 

[Ivory]

Since the Imperials are SUPPOSED to have a hatred for the Dominion and would be committing treason its hard to believe so many would do this. since the Nords are SUPPOSED to be raised to hold Honor very high its hard to believe theyre making these decisions. Since the Redguards... do you see where I'm going with this?

Since the Asians are SUPPOSED to have a good grades for the and not bad, its hard to believe so many would do this. since the Mexicans are SUPPOSED to be dirty lazy people its hard to believe they're making money with jobs and working.


Nothing is black and white. You're missing one of the biggest points of the Elder Scrolls series. Nothing is black and white, just like real life. I didn't rewrite your post to seem malicious btw. It's to make a point.

You generalize every single race in the game which is intentionally made to be there, to make you question when there are people who don't.

This is actually why I love The Elder Scrolls Online. It shows you more than just the simplicity of Skyrim.

In Hammerfell, fighting the Undead is a crime and desrespectful to their ancestors and anyone who does so is deemed evil, even if the Undead are killing innocents. Yet the biggest villains during that area are the Necromancers who are raising these undead, and the Heroes are the ones fighting back. There is an entire Redguard clan that sacrifices their names in order to protect the people who disown them.

The Imperial Army in the game is under the Rule of the Tharn family line, and yet none of them have any idea that the Tharn family worships the Daedra Molag Bal.

Coupled with the man who is eventually part of your team IS a Tharn. Who accepts that he too worships the Daedric Lords.

There are Bosmer who worship Y'ffre, and don't eat plants. There are Bosmer that do eat salads.

That's been a huge complaint of mine with everyone's argument that the Three alliances make no sense. Nothing is black and white, and you can even see the struggle between these races in their own alliances. The Orcs distrust many Bretons, and many argonians distrust the Dunmer and so on.

This is the best thing about the Elder Scrolls lore. There is generalizations about everything. It doesn't mean they are set in stone.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Since the Asians are SUPPOSED to have a good grades for the and not bad, its hard to believe so many would do this. since the Mexicans are SUPPOSED to be dirty lazy people its hard to believe they're making money with jobs and working.

IN THE GAME Each race has their own specific set of skills. isn't that its own little form of generalization or racism. I mean if I say Nords are generally better Warriors than Bosmer is that racist generalization or just factual generalization. and if I say Altmer are generally better mages than Well everybody, is that racist generalization or factual generalization. I won't generalizepersonality anymore, that's wrong to do so and I'm sorry if that came off the wrong way, but as far as skill goes it makes sense to generalize by race because each race has a set of skills that will make them better than everyone else.

Nothing is black and white. You're missing one of the biggest points of the Elder Scrolls series. Nothing is black and white, just like real life. I didn't rewrite your post to seem malicious btw. It's to make a point.

You generalize every single race in the game which is intentionally made to be there, to make you question when there are people who don't.

This is actually why I love The Elder Scrolls Online. It shows you more than just the simplicity of Skyrim.

In Hammerfell, fighting the Undead is a crime and desrespectful to their ancestors and anyone who does so is deemed evil, even if the Undead are killing innocents. Yet the biggest villains during that area are the Necromancers who are raising these undead, and the Heroes are the ones fighting back. There is an entire Redguard clan that sacrifices their names in order to protect the people who disown them.

The Imperial Army in the game is under the Rule of the Tharn family line, and yet none of them have any idea that the Tharn family worships the Daedra Molag Bal.

Coupled with the man who is eventually part of your team IS a Tharn. Who accepts that he too worships the Daedric Lords.

There are Bosmer who worship Y'ffre, and don't eat plants. There are Bosmer that do eat salads.

That's been a huge complaint of mine with everyone's argument that the Three alliances make no sense. Nothing is black and white, and you can even see the struggle between these races in their own alliances. The Orcs distrust many Bretons, and many argonians distrust the Dunmer and so on.

This is the best thing about the Elder Scrolls lore. There is generalizations about everything. It doesn't mean they are set in stone.

This is very, true. And I agree. I generalize by race when it comes to skill because it makes sense to do so in game and lore. This is not to say I do so in real life. Now Please answer this question:
You have two men both of them are totally untrained. One is a Wood Elf, the other, a Nord. Now Logically speaking, without testing their skills, who's hand would you put the Battleaxe in to, and who's hand would you put the Shortbow and arrow sheath in?

 

[Ivory]

do you have any quotes saying only Eorlund can?

Considering he is the only one who can make it, that's proof enough don't you think? And again, No one takes over the forge and knows how to if he dies.

Y'know there are nine divines whether you wan't to believe it or not there are nine. Talos has an amulet that works, and if that's not enough you need to only look back to Oblivion where they needed the Blood of a god for the Amulet of Kings to work. They took Tiber's Armor which had his blood on it and it worked. If hes not a god how did this work?

You're doing it again. Starting an argument where there is none. I never once claimed Talos isn't a God. It's been proven time and time again by the past games. Saying "By the Eight" is following the Law. He may very well worship The Nine, but clearly is following the Law.

Of course, although I've had no formal training making Skyforge Steel and I can make Nord Hero items, which are just as effective, just fine. If the DB can whos to say some other Master Forgesmith can't

Actually, they are slightly inferior. But I digress. Sure, that's a fair enough comment, but it doesn't change that Skyforge Steel, a prized item in Whiterun and Skyrim would be Lost.

Nothing. The Thalmor want a war. although I think Ulfric has a good point about how the Empire abandoned us to serve their own purposes, which is fine as long as they can let us go. Torygg wouldn't do that.

Actually, Torygg's mage said he would have gladly supported Ulfric. Torygg looked up to Ulfric, and had he talked to him, odds are he would have agreed. Torygg worshiped Talos, secretly and it's shown when his wife confides in you to place Torygg's horn on the Talos Shrine far from solitude for her husband.

And again, the Empire had to keep the peace. They were not ready to start another war with the Dominion. Ulfric knew what he was demanding of the Markarth Jarl. He chose to openly demand to break the law that, at the time, was not even enforced.

 

[Ivory]

You have two men both of them are totally untrained. One is a Wood Elf, the other, a Nord. Now Logically speaking, without testing their skills, who's hand would you put the Battleaxe in to, and who's hand would you put the Shortbow and arrow sheath in?

Generalizing by skill and by race are two different things.

To answer your question, if BOTH are untrained, and neither has skill in either weapon, I could very well give them either or. If they are on equal footing, it wouldn't matter who got what weapon, since neither has any skill in it. If anything I would give the wood elf the Battleaxe just to further prove generalizations are pointless. Since the Bosmer would have NO training with a Bow, and the Nord had no training with the Battleaxe, it could go either way.

A civilian Wood elf is no more trained than a Nord civilian. Some of the strongest ancient Nords were the Dragon Priests. Mages, who were nords. So it's kinda moot point.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Considering he is the only one who can make it, that's proof enough don't you think? And again, No one takes over the forge and knows how to if he dies.

Because it's family tradition for the Gray Manes and the Gray Manes only to work the Skyforge, take that away and you might have a few people jumping up.

You're doing it again. Starting an argument where there is none. I never once claimed Talos isn't a God. It's been proven time and time again by the past games. Saying "By the Eight" is following the Law. He may very well worship The Nine, but clearly is following the Law.

My mistake it just semed that you were one of the few who didn't because you said he's smarter than his rebellious brethren. thats all. sorry, again.

Actually, they are slightly inferior. But I digress. Sure, that's a fair enough comment, but it doesn't change that Skyforge Steel, a prized item in Whiterun and Skyrim would be Lost.

Sure, And it would be a shame to lose Eorlund and the Gray Mane family but alas, thes things happen and the Companions will have to adapt like humans do.

Actually, Torygg's mage said he would have gladly supported Ulfric. Torygg looked up to Ulfric, and had he talked to him, odds are he would have agreed. Torygg worshiped Talos, secretly and it's shown when his wife confides in you to place Torygg's horn on the Talos Shrine far from solitude for her husband.

Torygg respected Ulfric and was a Talos Worshipper but it doesn't mean he supported his cause. Quite the opposite theres a woman in Solitude who's name I can't quite remember who said something along the lines of this
"If you ask me he wasn't that great of a King. Always going on and on about how we need the Empire" Ill look her up and make an edit or something.
EDIT: Seyma in Bits and Pieces says this.

And again, the Empire had to keep the peace. They were not ready to start another war with the Dominion. Ulfric knew what he was demanding of the Markarth Jarl. He chose to openly demand to break the law.

I understand, and I still don't like what they did here. The man took back a city for them so in return he could have free worship of Talos re-instated. And then they slapped the cuffs on him.

that, at the time, was not even enforced.

Again, this is unlikely. If the Thalmor presence was supposedly not significant and the law wasn't being enforced at the time, the Stormcloaks simply wouldn't acknowledge their presence in the first place and thus, they wouldn't have enough motivation to fight in a civil war or take back Markarth.

 

[Ivory]

Torygg respected Ulfric and was a Talos Worshipper but it doesn't mean he supported his cause. Quite the opposite theres a woman in Solitude who's name I can't quite remember who said something along the lines of this
"If you ask me he wasn't that great of a King. Always going on and on about how we need the Empire" Ill look her up and make an edit or something.

One woman who doesn't know the King as well as the Woman who raised him is evidence that Torygg wouldn't have supported Ulfric? That's grasping at straws.

I understand, and I still don't like what they did here. The man took back a city for them so in return he could have free worship of Talos re-instated. And then they slapped the cuffs on him.

They couldn't do that. It would have started the War all over again and undo the 30 years they've had to recover.

Again, this is unlikely. If the Thalmor presence was supposedly not significant and the law wasn't being enforced at the time, the Stormcloaks simply wouldn't acknowledge their presence in the first place and thus, they wouldn't have enough motivation to fight in a civil war or take back Markarth.

They're presence was brought after the Markarth Incident. Remember, 30 years have passed since the war. Alvor says how no one paid attention to the Law and everyone still had their little Shrines to Talos. Then The Thalmor came in legally to root it all out after Ulfric caused the Fiasco at Markarth. He refused to return the city to Empire hands until they said yes. They said yes and Thalmor noticed. What was the Empire supposed to do? Go back to war? For one single Man? Would you want your child and country to go to war because one man's demands made the country have no alternative when it could be avoided to begin with? The horrors committed on the Imperial people was far worse than anything Skyrim had to endure.

 

[DrunkenMage]

And you have no evidence he did, so its a moot point. Also don't you think if he did it would be mentioned. It was mentioned that he used it in Markarth but not in the Great War. And for the love of god stop using the word "pwnage" sarcastically.

He left the Greybeards because he couldn't sit back while the Empire was invaded. Everything he loved was threatened. Ulfric was taught the Thu'um should only be used for violence in times of true need, if that wasn't true need, then what is?

If he used the Thu'um taking back Markarth, why would he not use it during the Great War which was the very reason he left the Greybeards?

He was ambushed in this fight in the Great War he was likely fighting in a Field Battle and was paralyzed or knocked unconscious then taken prisoner. Although I agree Ulfric was outsmarted by Tulius although it wouldn't have worked totally in his favor if Ulfric had died that day.

Greybeards use the Thu'um in self defense. Ulfric wouldn't likely stop himself from using it if the lives of his soldiers depended on it.

Ulfric is what gives the Stormcloaks their great recruitment, his charisma and speeches inspire his men and inflame their passions. Without him the Stormcloaks would die down and eventually return to their homes. There would be continued violence for some time, but not on the same scale.

Yes. this is true. doesn't mean I was trying to "emulate you" Jesus, I cant even get over how egotistical that sounds.

You go on about logical arguments and try use a video that I use often when something stupid has been said.

You were trying to mimic what I did and turn it against me. Would have worked if you had an idea what you were discussing.

It has nothing to do with being egotistical, it occurs a lot in debates.

Uhh when? example please. And when was this 500 pages ago?

The latest one was when Rimfaxe corrected me. I've been corrected many times in this thread, doesn't matter if it's ten pages or five hundred pages ago. I can admit mistakes, just have to manage to correct me.

Dying a "stupid traitor" isn't.

Actually to them it is, they're saying he died fighting for the Stormcloaks. You expect Empire supporters to say he died a god damn hero?

Idolaf is the only one who cares the rest of the family couldn't give a damn about him, or the rest of the Gray Manes for that matter. Only the Young ones are willing to put the feud past them it would seem.

Well since there is a Grey-Mane/Battle-Born love affair going on, why wouldn't the family care? They were all friends, the main people who hate each other are the clan leaders.

Only the young ones it would seem and Idolaf was the only one who looked into it further, He seems to be the only one who's really concerned about Thorald on the Battle Born clan The others are Imperial Supporters why would they care about the death of some Stormcloak Traitor. the Older family members, and even the younger ons seem to not care.

They're not all Imperial supporters. There are those on both sides who think the war is as stupid as their feud with each other. It isn't as black and white as you're trying to make out.

hold on, I think the mother would be upset either way although if he wasn't arrested illegally she likely wouldn't make a huge fuss about it.

She doesn't know he's been arrested. She thinks he's missing and she wouldn't make a fuss about it, if it was legal? Are you serious?

I don't think she gives a plops about the law, when it comes to her son. Also since when do Stormcloaks and their supporters recognize and follow the White-Gold Concordat?

The Argonians are an extremely powerful force. The Empire and Tiber Septim himself refused to fight them even from the inside.

Tiber didn't have to fight them, he got them by treaty. Yeah the Argonians are a powerful force, so all the more reason to keep eyes and ears on them.

Its not, I just... don't want to believe people would sell their souls like that, especially Nords, Imperials, and Redguards. Its unsettling to me. I mean wheres the proof that the Imperials will even have a chance in that cold war?

The Empire doesn't care about honor, neither do the Thalmor. The Penitus Oculatus for example: Their recruitment process is oftentimes a brutal one, as displayed by Inspector Colin's task to assassinate an old man. The purpose of such recruitment process was to weed out those unwilling to actually go through with murder and other usually immoral tasks.

The Thalmor play dirty. Can the Stormcloaks be dishonorable? Can those 'True Nords' risk their glory in Sovngarde by taking part in immoral activities?

So you tell me. What proof do the Stormcloaks have that they stand any chance in this kind of battlefield?

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

You have two men both of them are totally untrained. One is a Wood Elf, the other, a Nord. Now Logically speaking, without testing their skills, who's hand would you put the Battleaxe in to, and who's hand would you put the Shortbow and arrow sheath in?

Generalizing by skill and by race are two different things.

To answer your question, if BOTH are untrained, and neither has skill in either weapon, I could very well give them either or. If they are on equal footing, it wouldn't matter who got what weapon, since neither has any skill in it. If anything I would give the wood elf the Battleaxe just to further prove generalizations are pointless. Since the Bosmer would have NO training with a Bow, and the Nord had no training with the Battleaxe, it could go either way.


A civilian Wood elf is no more trained than a Nord civilian. Some of the strongest ancient Nords were the Dragon Priests. Mages, who were nords. So it's kinda moot point.

But in game if you were trying to be a good archer would you go Bosmer or Nord. It's purely instinctive, in the game the untrained Wood Elf is automatically good at archery while the untrained Nord is automatically good at Two Handed weaponry.

 

[Ivory]

But in game if you were trying to be a good archer would you go Bosmer or Nord. It's purely instinctive, in the game the untrained Wood Elf is automatically good at archery while the untrained Nord is automatically good at Two Handed weaponry.

Not really no. My first character was a female Khajiit who used a Sword and Shield with Heavy Armor. My second was a Breton who used pure Archery and no magic. Just because you play or make choices a certain way, doesn't mean we all do. Even back in oblivion it was like that. Even then, those are just game mechanics at work. You can be anything you want. Hell, the most powerful known mage, Shalidor, was a Nord.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

One woman who doesn't know the King as well as the Woman who raised him is evidence that Torygg wouldn't have supported Ulfric? That's grasping at straws.

She never said that Torygg didn't support Ulfric she just said he would go on, and on about "the Empire this" and "The Empire that". For a man who would put that much effort in stating how much he supports the Empire its unlikely he would support a man who directly opposes their Ideals. I'm sure if he was in a better position he would but He was an Empire supporter through and through regardless of his respect for Ulfric.

They couldn't do that. It would have started the War all over again and undo the 30 years they've had to recover.

I understand its politics and its slimy buisness. They only did what they thought was right.

They're presence was brought after the Markarth Incident. Remember, 30 years have passed since the war. Alvor says how no one paid attention to the Law and everyone still had their little Shrines to Talos. Then The Thalmor came in legally to root it all out after Ulfric caused the Fiasco at Markarth. He refused to return the city to Empire hands until they said yes. They said yes and Thalmor noticed. What was the Empire supposed to do? Go back to war? For one single Man? Would you want your child and country to go to war because one man's demands made the country have no alternative when it could be avoided to begin with? The horrors committed on the Imperial people was far worse than anything Skyrim had to endure.

Since Alvor is the only NPC in the entire game who says this (Not to mention he says he was a child when this happened) I don't know if he is exactly the most reliable source. Also, the whole point of taking Markarth back was so it would be free to worship Talos again. If it really didn't matter and they could just worship anyway why would they do that. Why would hundreds of Nords feel compelled to take back Markarth for this and this reason alone.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

But in game if you were trying to be a good archer would you go Bosmer or Nord. It's purely instinctive, in the game the untrained Wood Elf is automatically good at archery while the untrained Nord is automatically good at Two Handed weaponry.

Not really no. My first character was a female Khajiit who used a Sword and Shield with Heavy Armor. My second was a Breton who used pure Archery and no magic. Just because you play or make choices a certain way, doesn't mean we all do. Even back in oblivion it was like that. Even then, those are just game mechanics at work. You can be anything you want. Hell, the most powerful known mage, Shalidor, was a Nord.

Interesting. For roleplaying reasons I usually pick what that particular race is best at so Nord Warrior, Bosmer Archer, Dunmer Spellsword etc. etc. Except for this one time when I made an Argonian Battlemage.

 

[Ivory]

Since Alvor is the only NPC in the entire game who says this (Not to mention he says he was a child when this happened) I don't know if he is exactly the most reliable source. Also, the whole point of taking Markarth back was so it would be free to worship Talos again. If it really didn't matter and they could just worship anyway why would they do that. Why would hundreds of Nords feel compelled to take back Markarth for this and this reason alone.

For Open Worship. If you worshiped in silence. The Empire left you alone and the Thalmor had no legal right to break into your home. But with the Stormcloaks waging war, it gave the Thalmor the legal right to "aid" the imperials to root out Talos worship.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

He left the Greybeards because he couldn't sit back while the Empire was invaded. Everything he loved was threatened. Ulfric was taught the Thu'um should only be used for violence in times of true need, if that wasn't true need, then what is?If he used the Thu'um taking back Markarth, why would he not use it during the Great War which was the very reason he left the Greybeards?

Its not impossible but don't you think it would be documented. He would be the only person in the entire Imperial Army who had this amazing power. Not to mention that he was taught that using the Thu'um in war would result in punishment from Kyne. Thats a good enough reason for a young intrepid person not to do something.

You were trying to mimic what I did and turn it against me. Would have worked if you had an idea what you were discussing.

It has nothing to do with being egotistical, it occurs a lot in debates.

I'm sorry all father! Please don't strike me down with your infinite wisdom.

The latest one was when Rimfaxe corrected me. I've been corrected many times in this thread, doesn't matter if it's ten pages or five hundred pages ago. I can admit mistakes, just have to manage to correct me.

tuoché

Actually to them it is, they're saying he died fighting for the Stormcloaks. You expect Empire supporters to say he died a god damn hero?

How about a "stupid traitor" is that going to be somehow romanticized in the eyes of a traumatized, old mother.

Well since there is a Grey-Mane/Battle-Born love affair going on, why wouldn't the family care? They were all friends, the main people who hate each other are the clan leaders.

Ahh yes. Amore. Way to pull a fast one. Okay so Jon Battle-Born might care (I kind of suspected him to anyway) but, who else? Just because they weren't a feuding clan doesn't mean they all liked each other.

The Empire doesn't care about honor, neither do the Thalmor. The Penitus Oculatus for example: Their recruitment process is oftentimes a brutal one, as displayed by Inspector Colin's task to assassinate an old man. The purpose of such recruitment process was to weed out those unwilling to actually go through with murder and other usually immoral tasks.

The Thalmor play dirty. Can the Stormcloaks be dishonorable? Can those 'True Nords' risk their glory in Sovngarde by taking part in immoral activities?

But that's what I like about them. Ethically they're the way to go. and you just proved that. Would you be more effective? sure but at the cost of making your agents go through horrible tasks, re living their awful deeds all so the Empire can get their grubby little hands on a small piece of information which might or might not be important seems.. well.. awful and immoral. You just said recruitment involves murdering an old man.

So you tell me. What proof do the Stormcloaks have that they stand any chance in this kind of battlefield?

they only really stand a chance on an actual battlefield where killin' Elves comes as naturally as drinking mead, and making love to Nord Women. . But in all seriousness none. You've convinced me. They don't have a snowballs chance in hell at performing real Espionage. I mean they can be sneaky and destroy enemy supply lines, as well as bribe officials and forge documents (like they did in the main questline) but against Thalmor and Imperial agents, heh, no chance.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

For Open Worship. If you worshiped in silence. The Empire left you alone and the Thalmor had no legal right to break into your home. But with the Stormcloaks waging war, it gave the Thalmor the legal right to "aid" the imperials to root out Talos worship.

But I thought they already had that ability? that was one of the terms of the WGC. The Thalmor have complete authority in how Talos worship is brought about and destroyed whether its in silence or not. From the way DrunkenMage is making them sound, the Thalmor would have eyes and ears EVERYWHERE. How in Ysmir's Beard would they not know people are worshiping Talos and would only choose after the Markarth Incident to weed em out? Also, wouldn't that be counterproductive, since the Thalmor are trying to indirectly aid the Stormcloaks by giving Nords incentive to fight them? If this were true wouldn't it deter more Nords from Ulfric, as he was the one who brought the Thalmor into Skyrim, rather give the Nords reason to join him?

 

[Ivory]

But I thought they already had that ability? that was one of the terms of the WGC. The Thalmor have complete authority in how Talos worship is brought about and destroyed whether its in silence or not. From the way DrunkenMage is making them sound, the Thalmor would have eyes and ears EVERYWHERE.

Right, but think about it. They wouldn't lawfully know about it. They'd have to expose their spies. They have the intelligence, they just needed the excuse to "find out"

How in Ysmir's Beard would they not know people are worshiping Talos and would only choose after the Markarth Incident to weed em out? Also, wouldn't that be counterproductive, since the Thalmor are trying to indirectly aid the Stormcloaks by giving Nords incentive to fight them? If this were true wouldn't it deter more Nords from Ulfric, as he was the one who brought the Thalmor into Skyrim, rather give the Nords reason to join him?

It's not counterproductive when it turns the Nords against the Empire. Their goal right now is to weaken the Empire. The best way to do that is to turn a province loyal to the Empire against itself. Everyone knows the Thalmor are a major threat. The Thalmor use this to their advantage by making the Empire seem unfit to rule. Then, come back and destroy what's left of Skyrim.

The Thalmor are Arrogant and powerful. Think about how many provinces would be against Skyrim if the Thalmor won.