Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Vatonage]

"No. You are dead. He wins. Everything you are no longer exists. Everything you've ever thought, loved, cared for means nothing now that your life is over. You die in vain while your killer stands over your corpse with power. Compared to a man who is strategic and fights back when the man's guard is dropped. At least he died trying and not dying like a powerless animal.

Sure you die and go to sovrngarde or whatever, but what so what? Your life is cut short because you made the conscious choice to be killed without trying to fight back. Your death is an unnecessary and pointless death. Friends? Family? They continue to be ruled over by this man who killed you, because you chose to die rather than fight."
A man can kill you, nothing more. A God can do much, much more.

 

[Ivory]

A man can kill you, nothing more. A God can do much, much more.

According to history a man can become a God. Talos was a man. Try again.

 

[Jeremius]

Tullius: "The rebellion is over. Ulfric Stormcloak is dead. His head will be sent to Cyrodiil where it will adorn a spike on the walls of the Imperial City. Let this day be a final warning to all who would still call themselves Stormcloaks. We are turning the city over to Brunwulf Free-Winter, an honorable and faithful man. Many of you will be staying in Windhelm to aid the Jarl in restoring order and stamping out any embers of rebellion that may still smolder here. In appreciation for your exemplary service, I am doubling your pay and compensation to the widows of your fallen comrades. I am proud of all of you. All hail the Emperor. All hail his Legionnaires!"

The Empire has a sick fetish for decapitation.

All hail to the red queen! To the glory of the Empire!

In the mean while under Stormcloak victory Both General Tullius and Legate Rikke gets buried in the halls of the dead in solitude, without desecration to their bodies.

Who cares. This mess is pointless vanity anyways.

Who cares? I do I don't support a bunch of head chopping fools who go all of their way to desecrate a body for their own sick entertainment.

The Empire is mentally ill.

Again, it is vanity. You should not care about vanity.

 

[Vatonage]

According to history a man can become a God. Talos was a man. Try again.

Talos was a man, and THEN became a God. Even the other Eight refer to themselves as NINE, not EIGHT.

 

[Ivory]

According to history a man can become a God. Talos was a man. Try again.

Talos was a man, and THEN became a God. Even the other Eight refer to themselves as NINE, not EIGHT.

That's my point. What if the man who killed you became a God? Would you then worship him? Or live in the afterlife for eternity knowing you could have prevented it? Just because a man can become a God, doesn't make him a good person. Talos certainly wasn't a saint.

 

[Vatonage]

That's my point. What if the man who killed you became a God? Would you then worship him? Or live in the afterlife for eternity knowing you could have prevented it? Just because a man can become a God, doesn't make him a good person. Talos certainly wasn't a saint.

If I killed him and he then became a God, would I be any better off?

Also, Godship (?) Doesn't make a person benevolent. Anything could be malevolent to anyone. It's all perspective.

 

[Ivory]

If I killed him and he then became a God, would I be any better off?

Perhaps not, but that's assuming you couldn't have prevented his Godhood. If we argue this, you still fought for your beliefs. You stood up against a man who became a God. Or, you stood up against a man who could have taken your life and prevented it.

Either way, live or die, at least you died trying, than saying "Shoot me" and dying without a fight.

You stormcloaks will jump to call Torygg weak for being defeated after sticking to the Ancient Nordic customs you claim to hold so dear, but then turn around saying how Ulfric isn't weak for not fighting back against the Imperials in the forest which is not Ancient Nordic Custom.

 

[Vatonage]

Perhaps not, but that's assuming you couldn't have prevented his Godhood. If we argue this, you still fought for your beliefs. You stood up against a man who became a God. Or, you stood up against a man who could have taken your life and prevented it.

Either way, live or die, at least you died trying, than saying "Shoot me" and dying without a fight.

You stormcloaks will jump to call Torygg weak for being defeated after sticking to the Ancient Nordic customs you claim to hold so dear, but then turn around saying how Ulfric isn't weak for not fighting back against the Imperials in the forest which is not Ancient Nordic Custom.

Torygg was weak because he died, and left the Throne Kingless. Not for the Ancient Nordic Custom crap. I never said that. Assumptions get you very far, no?

 

[Ivory]

Torygg was weak because he died, and left the Throne Kingless. Not for the Ancient Nordic Custom crap. I never said that. Assumptions get you very far, no?

So you discredit your fellow Stormcloaks like Rajiin who say otherwise? Stormcloaks twist their arguements repeatedly to make Ulfric a hero or a smart man when he is doing the same thing the Empire has done against the Thalmor, and yet you call the Empire weak for doing so.

Shout all you want, but Ulfric surrendering to the Empire to die as a martyr is a strategy, just as the Empire using the Peace treaty as a way to gain strength to fight another day is one as well. Ulfric Stormcloak is no different than the Empire he tries to turn his own people against.

The difference is the Empire understands the threat, while Ulfric is a puppet. Even if he wins the war against the Empire, that will not and can not stop the Thalmor from espionage against Skyrim. If anything, it makes it that much easier.

 

[Raijin]

 

[Tyer032392]

Torygg was weak because he died, and left the Throne Kingless. Not for the Ancient Nordic Custom crap. I never said that. Assumptions get you very far, no?

It's stated by many people that Torygg had only martial training and very little training and combat experience. Ulfric on the other hand was a veteran in the Imperial Legion, had mastery over some Thu'um and is in his prime. If anything, I would call Ulfric the weakling as in order to win the fight, he not only abused the Greybeards teachings, but also knew that Torygg could not defeat him. Torygg was very brave and honorable for accepting Ulfric's challenge as he knew that he was going to die.

If Ulfric decided to pick on someone of equal power like Balgruuf or even the Dragonborn him/herself, than Ulfric would of been nothing but an ash pile. Also take into account that Balgruuf challenged to a Nordic challenge like Ulfric did to Torygg, Ulfric refused.

 

[Vatonage]

So you discredit your fellow Stormcloaks like Rajiin who say otherwise? Stormcloaks twist their arguements repeatedly to make Ulfric a hero or a smart man when he is doing the same thing the Empire has done against the Thalmor, and yet you call the Empire weak for doing so.

Shout all you want, but Ulfric surrendering to the Empire to die as a martyr is a strategy, just as the Empire using the Peace treaty as a way to gain strength to fight another day is one as well. Ulfric Stormcloak is no different than the Empire he tries to turn his own people against.

The difference is the Empire understands the threat, while Ulfric is a puppet. Even if he wins the war against the Empire, that will not and can not stop the Thalmor from espionage against Skyrim. If anything, it makes it that much easier.

Oh, yes, a man who OPENLY HATES THE THALMOR will SURELY GIVE THEM MORE POWER IN SKYRIM. Using your logic I'm more likely to believe that the Empire is run by a bunch of Khajit who breath fire and eat mice.

 

[Tyer032392]

Oh, yes, a man who OPENLY HATES THE THALMOR will SURELY GIVE THEM MORE POWER IN SKYRIM. Using your logic I'm more likely to believe that the Empire is run by a bunch of Khajit who breath fire and eat mice.

You missed Ivory's point entirely. Perhaps this will help, "The only way anyone can have any chance against the Dominion, is through a United Empire." Various NPC's.

 

[Ivory]

Oh, yes, a man who OPENLY HATES THE THALMOR will SURELY GIVE THEM MORE POWER IN SKYRIM. Using your logic I'm more likely to believe that the Empire is run by a bunch of Khajit that breathe fire.

That's the beauty of Espionage. You rebels would never know you had spies. They don't need to openly ask Ulfric for anything. They already have done so in the past, and even if they don't now, they have the skill to invade skyrim without him. Think about the several Thalmor supportive Khajiit you run into in the game. One who tries to kill the wood elf who helps you break into the Thalmor embassy, and another who tries to kill esbern and you in Riften during the main quest.

These were Khajiit that easily were in Skyrim. Spies. How easy it is to invade during a time of war, and even Peace, as shown with the deaths of endless Blades who were spying on the Thalmor.

 

[Vatonage]

You missed Ivory's point entirely. Perhaps this will help, "The only way anyone can have any chance against the Dominion, is through a United Empire." Various NPC's.

Either one will work! An independent Skyrim or a United Empire is better than a damn civil war! I believe everyone knows this!

 

[Raijin]

 

[Vatonage]

That's the beauty of Espionage. You rebels would never know you had spies. They don't need to openly ask Ulfric for anything. They already have done so in the past, and even if they don't now, they have the skill to invade skyrim without him. Think about the several Thalmor supportive Khajiit you run into in the game. One who tries to kill the wood elf who helps you break into the Thalmor embassy, and another who tries to kill esbern and you in Riften during the main quest.

These were Khajiit that easily were in Skyrim. Spies. How easy it is to invade during a time of war, and even Peace, as shown with the deaths of endless Blades who were spying on the Thalmor.

Racism. There you go, harder for spies. Even the Nord's in windhelm are superstitious of people who aren't, a spy won't get through. He he he.

 

[Ivory]

Racism. There you go, harder spies.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Gissur

A Nord spy.

 

[Vatonage]

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Gissur

A Nord spy.

A milkdrinker. He'll be killed before even joining the Stormcloaks.

 

[Raijin]

Racism. There you go, harder spies.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Gissur

A Nord spy.

Hes classified as a beggar you know.